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Post by shevii on Apr 23, 2023 8:46:41 GMT
In a couple of weeks we will see the first widespread use of the government's insistence on selected photo i.d.in a national election. The regime says this is to combat electoral fraud. However given that there have been just 9 convictions and 6 cautions for electoral fraud in the last 6 years our of over 50 million votes cast it's reasonable to conclude that this is total bollocks. So what are the real reasons, surely it isn't to bring us into line with European union countries, most of which have free universal identification cards which we of course don't have and anyway it's hardly likely that the brexitanian cultists would want to emulate the European union. Faced with the unnecessary legislation the house of lords tried to make it as universal as possible permitting as wide a range of identification as valid as possible. On return to the commons the Tories excluded most of these provisions relating to young people such as student identification cards while accepting all that related to those over 65. Given that elder people are more likely to vote Tory and more likely to vote by post anyway, where photo identification isn't required while young people are more likely to vote for parties other than the Tories and in person there's really only one reasonable conclusion to reach about the real purpose. It's a continuation of the anti democratic policies of this anti democratic regime. I do wonder though if the full effects of this won't be seen until the General Election (when it's too late to address the scale of the problem, not that the Tories would want to anyway). Local election turnouts are low and especially low in deprived areas and I'd assume that deprived areas are where the lack of ID is most likely to be the case. Local elections turnout will be much more for the politically engaged, and perhaps postal votes as a percentage of votes will be higher as well in a can't really be bothered to walk to the polling station type of election. When you get double the number of voters at a General Election it seems logical to me that this is where you'll get the problems of not having photo ID. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2023 8:53:36 GMT
One last thought; perhaps the problems in this country are less around the inability of the civil servants to deliver, rather than the appallingly low calibre of the politicians we've had telling them what to do? I thought Tony Blair was a pretty high calibre politician . He said "“I learned it’s [the UK civil service] great at managing things, but not great at changing things,” and that he found civil servants “frankly just unresponsive” when it came to major changes, such as healthcare or education reform. I thought pretty highly of John Reid too. He said in 2006 that the Home Office was "not fit for purpose", and "averse to a culture of personal responsibility", and said he had not been given "a fact or figure in the past fortnight that has not been revised quickly in a very short space of time". I thought David Blunkett high calibre. In 2008 in an article for Political Quarterly, Blunkett is highly critical of the Labour party's record in failing to tackle the civil service since it has been in power and warns that ministers are suffering from "rubber lever syndrome" –"The home secretary, or ministers responsible for health and education or environment, food and rural affairs (where management and delivery have been catastrophic) find themselves falling by the wayside, while those actually responsible for the day-to-day bungling, and for inadequate policy advice, continue apace."-"Ministers should have the same power to choose from a list of people to be their chief private secretary to appoint a new permanent and deputy secretaries and the chairs of appointment commissions. While it would be wrong to go as far as Barack Obama and make thousands of political appointments, there is a case for ministers to have powers to appoint the most senior people. At present, the very title permanent secretary says it all: I'm permanent and you are not." and by the way , the primary incident * for which Raab was criticised is described in today's ST from Tolley as follows :- "Details of the key incident were redacted but it concerned Brexit negotiations in 2020. Hugh Elliott, the British ambassador to Spain, had, Foreign Office sources say, “promised something to the Spanish that he had no right to” by suggesting that Spanish police might be based permanently in Gibraltar, something which went beyond his mandate and was anathema to Raab. Raab summoned Elliott home and had him replaced as negotiator by a former ambassador to Madrid, Simon Manley. Tolley says this was a legitimate decision but found that in the process Raab “acted in a way which was intimidating, in the sense of unreasonably and persistently aggressive in the context of a workplace meeting. His conduct also involved an abuse or misuse of power in a way that undermines or humiliates.”This was a reference to Raab raising a question about whether Elliott had broken the civil service code of conduct, a move which implied there may be disciplinary action against the ambassador. Tolley decided this was a step too far." So there you have it-The bar is set much lower for the Ministerial Code than for the Civil Service Code. Or-as Blunkett said 15 years ago -I'm permanent and you are not. * "The second ruling against Raab was that his consistently “abrasive” behaviour in meetings at the Ministry of Justice also had the cumulative effect of being experienced as bullying by some officials — even though Raab had not intended offence. But Tolley also revealed that he had dismissed a lot of claims which had been “written by committee” and by officials who had never even met Raab." ST |
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 23, 2023 8:59:17 GMT
Just a thought but with Mad Nads Dorries, 30p Lee Anderson, Jacob Rees Mogg Nigel Fromage and soon to be Thug Raab as the talking head line up at GB news would it be possible to deport the entire studio to Rwanda.
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Post by alec on Apr 23, 2023 9:33:24 GMT
colin - ah! I see. Raab was acting " unreasonably" and in a "persistently aggressive" manner over the incident. I've no doubt the civil servant who exceeded his remit was right to be removed and replaced, but I can't really understand why you seem to be lining up with a prat who thinks acting aggressively in work meetings is a bright thing to do. Just get the member of staff replaced, and assert your authority like good quality managers do. No need for anything more.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Apr 23, 2023 9:33:40 GMT
Just a thought but with Mad Nads Dorries, 30p Lee Anderson, Jacob Rees Mogg Nigel Fromage and soon to be Thug Raab as the talking head line up at GB news would it be possible to deport the entire studio to Rwanda. Have some compassion...think about the Rwandans |
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Post by graham on Apr 23, 2023 9:45:53 GMT
I think you've revealed one of the real problems. No sure whether you meant this, but your statement implies that criticism of a civil servant by a politician doesn't affect the civil servant's career. i.e. It's a job for life however useless they are. I'm totally baffled that that's what you took from what I wrote. There are numerous examples of civil servants being sacked after criticism by politicians, the latest being Tom Scholar from the Treasury by Liz Truss (and he turned out to be right') EDIT - Having reread my post I can see how you might have misunderstood this sentence. That is partly because of the rule of impartiality set on civil servants and partly because any public criticism of politicians is likely to affect their future careers.I meant that criticism by civil servants of politicians is likely to affect the civil servant's career. I've never heard of a case where a civil servant has criticised a politician and it has affected the politician's career. I am not clear as to the basis on which Tom Scholar could have been 'sacked.' His position certainly did not cease to exist , so there was no way for him to be made redundant. Of course, he could have been moved from his position and transferred elsewhere but that would not have amounted to dismissal from the Civil Service.Moreover , any dismissal would have surely involved disciplinary procedures and related appeals.Was it simply a case of Scholar being 'paid off.? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2023 9:51:33 GMT
Stumbled upon this clip of Dame Edna interviewing Ted Heath... He actually gets a few funnies in!
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Post by moby on Apr 23, 2023 9:52:42 GMT
How Raab tried to control the narrative so that he became the victim of the Whitehall blob:- www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/23/no-minister-how-dominic-raabs-aggressive-exit-has-damaged-morale-of-civil-servants 'On cue, and in reaction to Raab’s resignation, on Saturday the rightwing press declared the nation to be in a full-blown crisis of governance, in which a woke civil service was now calling the shots, thanks to a Tory prime minister who had failed to stand up to the mandarins. Nothing new there then! The Daily Mail asked on its front page: “Was this the day Britain became ungovernable?” In a leading article, it declared: “Mr Raab was Mr Sunak’s chief supporter during his leadership bid. Yet the PM did nothing to save his man. Instead he delivered a major scalp to his enemies on a plate.” It added: “It has long been obvious that the Whitehall Blob despises the Tories for getting Brexit done and is sullenly obstructive to their plans for change.” Of course Civil Servants have their own perspective regarding how weak the report was and that deserves to be acknowledged:- 'First, many of those who were involved and gave evidence to the inquiry were upset that it had not been tougher in its conclusions and dismayed that it did not better reflect their complaints of bullying. A senior civil service source said: “There are a lot of people who gave evidence about Raab’s behaviour who feel their evidence did not affect the report. They are disappointed and upset. I don’t know whether he [Tolley] was got at, or what it was. He seems to have just caved on it.” And second, there was anger in Whitehall that Raab had been given a two-hour period between his decision to quit and publication of the report in which he could dominate headlines and undermine the whole process, insisting it was entirely flawed and unfair to him, before anyone in the civil service had had sight of anything.' Lord McDonald confirms the accusations of there being a Whithall problem as spurious. What we have here is a politician who was a headstrong loose cannon:- www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65358258'Lord McDonald described his former boss as a "tough taskmaster" whose methods did not help him achieve his aims. He told the BBC he raised this with Mr Raab more than once but he "disputed" it and was unwilling to listen'. Interestingly Oliver Dowden the new DPM said Raab did the 'right thing' to resign www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe7dELp1Vb4 |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Apr 23, 2023 9:54:01 GMT
Just a thought but with Mad Nads Dorries, 30p Lee Anderson, Jacob Rees Mogg Nigel Fromage and soon to be Thug Raab as the talking head line up at GB news would it be possible to deport the entire studio to Rwanda. In the traditions of UKPR2 pedantry I am compelled to point out that Dorries' show is on Talk TV (no me neither!). |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Apr 23, 2023 10:03:24 GMT
You're not going to like this, but it is a disease primarily of gay men in this country because sexual transmission is much easier in the rear orifice than the front. It's to do with the thickness of the lining. The reason that it became a common heterosexual disease in Africa was because rear-entry is used as a form of contraception. Don't ask me how I know this.  I did read a paper which argued being circumcised reduced your chances of being infected. Wasnt impressed by it, as it was based upon a small self selecting sample whose sexual practices were bound up with the treatment they were receiving. I dont recall exactly, something about people having been circumcised were then ordered not to have sex, and then didnt catch as much HIV during the study period? Dont recall any mention of exactly what sort of sex it was either. Although what you suggest makes sense, I dont recall it being raised officially at the time. We do however still have the problem as with covid and masks, that even if you make something x10 safer, its still a significant risk over time. In particular some people have far more sex with far more partners than others, and are thus considered very important to reach for disease control. Similarly, the tendency for mass spread events with covid amongst people on holiday. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Apr 23, 2023 10:04:23 GMT
Re victim blaming the civil service. In our org there is a list of behaviours to help managers identify low performance.
Two of the key ones are arguing and giving excuses when confronted with challenging feedback and seeking to blame others for negative outcomes.
Looks like Raab and in fact the entire govt fulfill that criteria..
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 23, 2023 10:06:45 GMT
neiljFair point about Rwanda. But I've a perfect alternative Devon Island (known as Tallurutit in Inuktitut) in Canada's Nunavut Territory is the largest uninhabited island on the planet with a landscape so cold, rocky, and isolated that scientists have spent two decades there pretending it's Mars. This is where NASA has tested robots, spacesuits, drills, and other space tools since the '90s. Mogg a tool from the 1890's should fit in wonderfully.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Apr 23, 2023 10:07:32 GMT
Re progressive alliances, it is possible a bit more of this is going on than we have heard about yet. I was having a look at Rother DC because Danny had mentioned it and noticed a definite pattern that, with a handful of exceptions, the Lib Dems, Labour and Greens are not standing against each other; instead it tends to be Conservatives, Independents and just one of the 'traffic light' parties (Red/Amber/Green). Maybe, regardless of what head offices think, local activists in strongly Tory areas are getting tired of always losing. Or you mean, tories are getting sick of the tories and therefore standing as independent tories? |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Apr 23, 2023 10:20:58 GMT
How Raab tried to control the narrative so that he became the victim of the Whitehall blob:- www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/23/no-minister-how-dominic-raabs-aggressive-exit-has-damaged-morale-of-civil-servants 'On cue, and in reaction to Raab’s resignation, on Saturday the rightwing press declared the nation to be in a full-blown crisis of governance, in which a woke civil service was now calling the shots, thanks to a Tory prime minister who had failed to stand up to the mandarins. Nothing new there then! The Daily Mail asked on its front page: “Was this the day Britain became ungovernable?” In a leading article, it declared: “Mr Raab was Mr Sunak’s chief supporter during his leadership bid. Yet the PM did nothing to save his man. Instead he delivered a major scalp to his enemies on a plate.” It added: “It has long been obvious that the Whitehall Blob despises the Tories for getting Brexit done and is sullenly obstructive to their plans for change.” There is an established play list for how you undermine a democracy and turn it into an authoritarian state. There is no need to go back to the 1930s, since Hungary and Poland are providing contemporary examples. Undermining the independence of the civil service is important; neutering the independence of the Courts even more so. Control over the majority of the press is helpful and ensuring the state broadcaster is under political control is also essential. Changing electoral arrangements to suit the government party helps maintain the illusion of choice. Hamstringing trade unions with legislation designed to make them ineffective removes another threat to authoritarian control. All this can be justified by claiming you are acting to implement "the will of the people" which is somehow being blocked by a liberal elite. Support can be built by targeting and demonising minorities - migrants and LGBT+ are ideal targets. This can be used to justify withdrawing established human rights and the rule of law and over time this can be extended much wider to affect the whole population. Now, I don't know if any of this sounds at all familiar from the UK over the last 7 years? This is one of the reasons I get annoyed with those on the left who moan about all politicians being the same and seem happy to see the current government stay in power. I think the stakes are very high at present; I don't see the current Tory party as fully committed to liberal democracy and it is awash with dark money and influence from US far right sources. Remember the next Tory leader is likely to be Braverman or Badenoch. |
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jib
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Post by jib on Apr 23, 2023 10:27:44 GMT
Apart from the obvious inhumanity in the way that prescription charges can work in England (nowhere else in the UK has them), does anyone know how much of the revenue raised is swallowed up by administration costs?
When they were abolished in Wales, then NI, then Scotland it was argued that the administration costs meant that little net funding for patient care was released - but I haven't seen whether that is true or not. Not that it matters much to me, as providing free prescriptions to all is "a good thing".
"Woman who miscarried fined by NHS for claiming free prescription while pregnant"
www.theguardian.com/society/2023/apr/22/woman-who-miscarried-fined-by-nhs-for-claiming-free-prescription-while-pregnant?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other Is it really a "good thing"? There is no doubt that things that are free are not valued or are wasted. Here in Wales, people go for everything on prescription, even toothpaste believe it or not. Not only does this cost but having a doctors appointment to get something like free paracetomol wastes doctors time. I dont know whether it is still the same but the old French system under which you paid a proportion of the cost of the medicine and then claimed it back. At least this did tell the ill person what the cost of the medicines were.
When my mother dies we had a 12" cubic cardboard box completely full of usused medicines, most all untouched, and which had to be thrown away because the chemists wouldnt take them back.
There may be a good reason why someone needs to be prescribed paracetamol under medical supervision, and that toothpaste may be specialist high fluoride toothpaste for someone who is medically compromised. One thing is for certain, free access to medical care is sacrosanct in Wales, that's bloody brilliant, and it's not something any of the main parties (incl. the Cediwadwyr Cymraeg) are likely to challenge. |
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Post by leftieliberal on Apr 23, 2023 10:55:30 GMT
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Apr 23, 2023 11:03:04 GMT
She has made a total prat of herself (the letter as published is racist in itself) and has already had to issue a grovelling apology. I don't see her surviving this. If Starmer really is plotting to remove the far left they certainly know how to make it easy for him. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2023 11:03:25 GMT
This mindset / attitude is systemic in the Corbyn group. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 23, 2023 11:09:36 GMT
And Abbott loses the Labour party whip
A spokesperson for the Labour party said: “The Labour party completely condemns these comments which are deeply offensive and wrong. The chief whip has suspended the Labour whip from Diane Abbott pending an investigation.”
Abbott's outrageous remarks were also equally offensive to the Irish and traveller communities.
It's a shame to see a Political career end in ignominy but this should be it for Abbott
Respect to the Labour party for taking prompt action it's a nice juxtaposition to the regime whose first concern is to protect their chums.
The " racist bigot " Tory member of the lords description not mine remains as home Secretary
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jib
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Post by jib on Apr 23, 2023 11:11:11 GMT
This mindset / attitude is systemic in the Corbyn group. Abbott, McDonnell, Burgon, RLB and Corbyn. What a comedy troupe. That some people so vociferously defend them adds to the entertainment value. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Apr 23, 2023 11:23:45 GMT
Is it really a "good thing"? There is no doubt that things that are free are not valued or are wasted. Here in Wales, people go for everything on prescription, even toothpaste believe it or not. Not only does this cost but having a doctors appointment to get something like free paracetomol wastes doctors time. I dont know whether it is still the same but the old French system under which you paid a proportion of the cost of the medicine and then claimed it back. At least this did tell the ill person what the cost of the medicines were.
When my mother dies we had a 12" cubic cardboard box completely full of usused medicines, most all untouched, and which had to be thrown away because the chemists wouldnt take them back.
Assuming that your mother was aged 60+ at her death, she would also have been receiving free prescriptions had she lived in England. Such waste! I can see that many sharing your political stance would wish the profligacy of UKGE to end, and for the 80% of the population in England who do get free prescriptions to have to pay for them. Since a third of "people of working age have not collected a prescription because of cost" in England [1] eliminating prescription fee exemptions would have the dual benefit of reducing the drugs bill for NHSE, but eliminating some of the surplus population as well.
The original question I asked, however, was much simpler - "does anyone know how much of the revenue raised is swallowed up by administration costs?"
pharmaceutical-journal.com/article/news/working-people-struggle-to-afford-multiple-prescriptions |
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 23, 2023 11:25:47 GMT
There's certainly a tendency in the left of the Labour party to allow the rightful condemnation of the Israeli government in its persecution and oppression of Palestinians to stray into antisemitism.
The current Israeli government would be equally objectionable irrespective of the particular form of religious bigotry it perpetrated.
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 23, 2023 11:32:54 GMT
There is an element among people of colour who seemingly find it impossible to accept that we can be racist in any circumstances because we can also be targets of racism.
Braverman and Abbott coming from entirely different motivations are examples of why this is total bollocks.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2023 11:37:24 GMT
This mindset / attitude is systemic in the Corbyn group. Abbott, McDonnell, Burgon, RLB and Corbyn. What a comedy troupe. That some people so vociferously defend them adds to the entertainment value. I can't find the actual letter. But the Indy quotes are revealing :- "It stated that Jewish, Irish and traveller communities have experienced “prejudice”, but added: “This is similar to racism and the two words are often used as if they are interchangeable.” I agree !!-she is right.!! they are used as if they are interchangeable. And they are not. "Ms Abbott had added: “It is true that many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice. But they are not all their lives subject to racism.” and this is where she reveals what she really means :- Jews are white , so they cant be subject to "racism" because that only applies to black people, Which of course is quite wrong. How can what we used to call "colour prejudice" be "racist" ?- There isn't a coloured race. Jews come much closer to racial identity-and maybe Roma too. THe question of race within our genus is a complex and disputed one. Modern genetics has shown that the greatest diversity in our DNA is between sub saharan africans. . People like Abbott don't even think about their use of the word. She is guilty of the very error she accuses others of. She gets into this mess because she has two deep seated prejudices of her own :- Jews shouldn't get any sympathy because of their treatment of the Palestinians . and All people with non-white skin colour receive prejudice and discrimination. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 23, 2023 11:43:53 GMT
To be fair to Abbott unlike current members of the regime she has issued an abject apology and as the first black woman mp she has stood up against racism in some forms.
Her apology.
Abbott published an apology on Twitter, saying she wanted to “wholly and unreservedly withdraw my remarks”. She blamed the errors on “an initial draft being sent”.
Abbott said: “There is no excuse, and I wish to apologise for any anguish caused. Racism takes many forms, and it is completely undeniable that Jewish people have suffered its monstrous effects, as have Irish people, Travellers and many others.
Once again, I would like to apologise publicly for the remarks and any distress caused as a result of them. "
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Apr 23, 2023 11:46:15 GMT
Hopefully, no one on this board is a victim of domestic abuse - but this is worth sharing -
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Post by alec on Apr 23, 2023 11:47:53 GMT
colin - rather disappointed in you. I was hoping instead that the anti-Wokeists would ride out in Abbott's support, and face down the Twitterati Brigade as they hunt down anyone who uses the wrong form of words. After all, what she said was technically true, reminding us that racism and prejudice are not precisely the same. She was also correct when she said that in pre-civil rights America and apartheid era South Africa, it was black people, not Jews and Irish, who were the subject of legally mandated sanctions. But I guess that's the thing with right on wokery mobs - they sweep everyone up in their path..... Context added: I think Abbott was foolish straying into such territory in the manner she adopted, especially following Labour's recent troubles, even though what she said was technically accurate. There isn't much mileage in arguing about which minority suffers more or worse prejudice than another, or haggling over the precise meaning of terms. But I can understand her frustration; it is, quite rightly, unacceptable to downplay the treatment of Jews. We still have ongoing action seeking to return stolen property from victims of the Holocaust, and quite right too. But for black people, this must contrast uncomfortably with what those very same people respond when asked about reparations for the slave trade, or action on modern racism, or denial of institutional racism etc etc. It's unacceptable to be anti-semitic in any way, shape or form, but turning a blind eye or down playing the effects of racism is OK. I think that's what Abbott was probably trying to suggest.
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 23, 2023 11:52:45 GMT
colinI essentially agree with your last, as a mixed race person I haven't routinely faced racism neither has my Jamaican ethnicity foster son. That doesn't of course mean it doesn't happen now and again, more for him than me, but it's not something we face every day. If we were determined to find racism in every real or imagined slight I suppose we could but it wouldn't be justified For example I could call you and Jib racist because of our disagreements here, but it wouldn't be true or remotely fair on you. I'd still be right and you'd still be wrong whatever the colour of our skins.
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 23, 2023 11:58:28 GMT
alecI've no idea what she intended to say but given that she's apologised for saying it it's difficult to know.
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Post by jayblanc on Apr 23, 2023 12:02:03 GMT
Speaking as someone who is both Irish and Roma, the Roma side of my family having fled from fascism in the 30s while also pretending not to be Roma in order to cross borders to safety, Abbot can disappear up her own arse. |
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