26-Nov 2022 : LAB: 50% / CON: 27% / LDEM: 9% / GRN: 4%

[steve]

Worth a watch . Munira Wilson educating one of the less sharpening the regime village idiots Jake Berry on asylum seekers.
Berry seemed unaware that Britain was an island!


youtu.be/tShpu62NOWs

[mercian]

Apr 21, 2023 10:41:17 GMT moby said:

Apr 21, 2023 9:44:34 GMT Mr Poppy said:

Dominic Raab latest: Deputy PM 'keeps word' and quits
news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-pm-to-give-major-speech-in-belfast-as-the-snp-fears-sturgeon-arrest-is-imminent-12593360?

I doubt that was an easy decision for Rishi but 25hrs is a reasonable window to allow Raab to 'resign' rather than force Rishi to sack him. TBC if there is any other 'skeletons' to be thrown out of the closet elsewhere within Team Rishi but Rishi can now keep the moral high ground that Starmer abandoned with his racist personal attacks on Rishi and Rishi's family. Certainly a change from the 'Owen Goal' approach of Boris trying to protect Paterson. Unlikely to be any VI impact but Rishi has broken a potential 'stick' that LAB could used have against CON, which is now "under new management".  

Sunak has clearly displayed poor judgement in appointing him in the first place, given the detail of these allegations has been generally known for months.

I've skimmed the report and it's pretty mild (and tedious) stuff.  Apparently the original complaint which kicked the others off was from 9 relatively junior people in the MOJ, some of whom had never even met Raab.  Presumably they were put up to it by more senior people. Apparently Raab was 'abrasive' not 'abusive' but was guilty of not considering how delicate the feelings of the complainers were as far as I can make out.

[mercian]

Apr 21, 2023 14:02:07 GMT pjw1961 said:

Apr 21, 2023 13:29:11 GMT steve said:

Oliver Dowden the new Deputy Prime Minister.

Dowden known by many as who? Has adopted a cloak of invisibility and irrelevance that the residents of Hogwarts would be proud of.


Perfect empty vessel for the job.

While it is true that Dowden has risen without trace, he is still a member of the current administration so there is bound to be something to dislike. In his case it is that he is the king of the fake "anti-woke" agenda. You may recall a flurry of controversy over this:

"During his time as Co-Chairman (of the Conservative Party), Dowden continued to be identified with the controversy over 'woke culture'. On 14 February 2022, Dowden gave a speech in the USA to The Heritage Foundation in which he criticised cancel culture, calling it a "painful woke psychodrama" which is sweeping the West and sapping its confidence, further saying that woke ideology is a "dangerous form of decadence"."

Good bloke then. Thanks.

[Mr Poppy]

Apr 21, 2023 18:06:30 GMT mercian said:

I've skimmed the report and it's pretty mild (and tedious) stuff.  Apparently the original complaint which kicked the others off was from 9 relatively junior people in the MOJ, some of whom had never even met Raab.  Presumably they were put up to it by more senior people. Apparently Raab was 'abrasive' not 'abusive' but was guilty of not considering how delicate the feelings of the complainers were as far as I can make out.

Since my name came up in the reply then I'll respond with my 2c.

Raab made the schoolboy error of being a hostage to fortune. As someone with a legal background he should not have gone "all in" with what he should have known was a deck stacked against him. 

By saying he'd resign if ANY of the 'bullying' charges against him were deemed to be valid then he dug his own grave.

He then had to keep his word and 'resign' (although given it took 25hrs then I expect he needed some 'persuading' to jump before being pushed).

I've posted the YG snap poll and made the comparison to the 'Owen (Paterson) goal' that Boris tried to defend. 

Given Starmer has "gone low" with racist personal attacks then Rishi can "go high" and show that CON are the party of integrity. 

Let the 'twit-terati' think they have won a victory but Raab was "damaged goods" and had to take one for the team. I expect "justice will be served" in due course but some dishes are best served cold. 

[James E]

Apr 21, 2023 16:59:23 GMT pjw1961 said:

Apr 21, 2023 16:53:58 GMT Mr Poppy said:

Not sure if we'll get a People's Polling but summary of today's polling updates:

YG: LAB 43% (-1), CON 28% (+2). LAB lead 15% (-3)
Omnisis: LAB 47% (-1), CON 27% (+2). LAB lead 20% (-3)
Tecne: LAB 44% (-1), CON 31% (+1). LAB lead 13% (-2)
Savanta: LAB 45% (uc), CON 31% (+2). LAB lead 14% (-2)

Average being a further narrowing of 2.5%. Obviously still a long way to go but as well as CON feeling more upbeat then the "Red on Red" attacks might increase as the shine comes off Starmer-LAB and the LW-LAB seek revenge. 'Popcorn' at the ready 

An average Labour lead of 15.5%, equating to a Labour majority of 158 on the new boundaries. Labour leads continue to be well in excess of those pre-Truss. 

Another way of looking at these polls is to compare to the average from the first 3 months of 2023, when the Lab lead was around 20 points. the Tory recovery is a net 4 points - or a 2% swing-back.

YG: LAB 43% (-1), CON 28% (+2). LAB lead 15%  - compares to average of 22% in 14 Jan-Mar YG polls : so -7%
Omnisis: LAB 47% (-1), CON 27% (+2). LAB lead 20% - compares to average 22% in 13 Jan-Mar Omnisis polls: so -2%
Techne: LAB 44% (-1), CON 31% (+1). LAB lead 13% - compares to average 18% in 13 Jan-Mar Techne polls : so - 5%
Savanta: LAB 45% (uc), CON 31% (+2). LAB lead 14% - compares to average 16% in 10 Jan-Mar Savanta polls : so -2%

[Mr Poppy]

I obviously can't speak for Rishi (who has a background in finance) but my experience of working in the City is where I'll offer my 2c after folks read:

How bullying became Westminster’s latest culture war
www.politico.eu/article/uk-bullying-westminster-culture-war-dominic-raab-resignation/

My 2c. Being "bullied" was once considered a "rite of passage" as you started as a 'grunt' and worked your way up. 'Back office' (equiv of civil service) took a lot of what would now be considered "bullying" from the 'front office' (equiv of ministers). The hard working people in the back office progressed and the crap ones did not - many 'jumping' as they were clearly not suited to the job.

Then there was a period of the 'fun police' (HR) saying you can't behave like that ("bullying" in their opinion) anymore. Some adjustment was required and more formal guidelines WRT to 'performance' were established. 

So if someone in the 'back office' was genuinely crap at their job we then had to use 'proper process' to get them sacked (or moved onto looking after the Equities desk which I'd guess is the equivalent of the Scottish office).

TBC of course but if there is a 'culture' of 'low productivity' in the Civil Service, then even more formalised procedures with a clear set of criteria is perhaps something the 'low' performers should not have wished for. 

A tactical retreat can draw your enemies out into the open and lull them into a false sense of security 

Lose a battle. Rearm. Win the (latest culture) war. 

[pjw1961]

Apr 21, 2023 18:31:07 GMT mercian said:

Apr 21, 2023 14:02:07 GMT pjw1961 said:

While it is true that Dowden has risen without trace, he is still a member of the current administration so there is bound to be something to dislike. In his case it is that he is the king of the fake "anti-woke" agenda. You may recall a flurry of controversy over this:

"During his time as Co-Chairman (of the Conservative Party), Dowden continued to be identified with the controversy over 'woke culture'. On 14 February 2022, Dowden gave a speech in the USA to The Heritage Foundation in which he criticised cancel culture, calling it a "painful woke psychodrama" which is sweeping the West and sapping its confidence, further saying that woke ideology is a "dangerous form of decadence"."

Good bloke then. Thanks.

While I can't exactly 'like' all your posts, your do make me chuckle sometimes 

[pjw1961]

Apr 21, 2023 19:19:37 GMT Mr Poppy said:

I obviously can't speak for Rishi (who has a background in finance) but my experience of working in the City is where I'll offer my 2c after folks read:

How bullying became Westminster’s latest culture war
www.politico.eu/article/uk-bullying-westminster-culture-war-dominic-raab-resignation/

My 2c. Being "bullied" was once considered a "rite of passage" as you started as a 'grunt' and worked your way up. 'Back office' (equiv of civil service) took a lot of what would now be considered "bullying" from the 'front office' (equiv of ministers). The hard working people in the back office progressed and the crap ones did not - many 'jumping' as they were clearly not suited to the job.

Then there was a period of the 'fun police' (HR) saying you can't behave like that ("bullying" in their opinion) anymore. Some adjustment was required and more formal guidelines WRT to 'performance' were established. 

So if someone in the 'back office' was genuinely crap at their job we then had to use 'proper process' to get them sacked (or moved onto looking after the Equities desk which I'd guess is the equivalent of the Scottish office).

TBC of course but if there is a 'culture' of 'low productivity' in the Civil Service, then even more formalised procedures with a clear set of criteria is perhaps something the 'low' performers should not have wished for. 

A tactical retreat can draw your enemies out into the open and lull them into a false sense of security 

Lose a battle. Rearm. Win the (latest culture) war. 

This from the person so fragile he blocks anyone who offers him a contrary opinion!  

[Mr Poppy]

Apr 21, 2023 18:47:11 GMT James E said:

Apr 21, 2023 16:59:23 GMT pjw1961 said:

An average Labour lead of 15.5%, equating to a Labour majority of 158 on the new boundaries. Labour leads continue to be well in excess of those pre-Truss. 

Another way of looking at these polls is to compare to the average from the first 3 months of 2023, when the Lab lead was around 20 points. the Tory recovery is a net 4 points - or a 2% swing-back.

YG: LAB 43% (-1), CON 28% (+2). LAB lead 15%  - compares to average of 22% in 14 Jan-Mar YG polls : so -7%
Omnisis: LAB 47% (-1), CON 27% (+2). LAB lead 20% - compares to average 22% in 13 Jan-Mar Omnisis polls: so -2%
Techne: LAB 44% (-1), CON 31% (+1). LAB lead 13% - compares to average 18% in 13 Jan-Mar Techne polls : so - 5%
Savanta: LAB 45% (uc), CON 31% (+2). LAB lead 14% - compares to average 16% in 10 Jan-Mar Savanta polls : so -2%

Or simply to say "LAB's lead has narrowed" 

I appreciate some in LAB seem to think the LEs are a GE (and the twitter Police had to point that out them) but GE'24 is not for another 18mths. Who knows what will happen between now and then (other than the near certain stuff like inflation falling rapidly later this year, UK very likely to outperform the 'doom and gloom' of IMF/BoE/OBR forecasts on growth, Hunt then being able to find some extra money down the back of the sofa for something like a 1p cut in base rate of income tax, etc).

I'm not going to blow the attachment space by attaching the graph but FWIW then 'punters' (who put their money where their mouths are) now price a LAB majority at below 50% (down from 65%). Of course if anyone thinks LAB are much likely to win a majority than 50/50 then they can put their own money where their mouth is.

www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.167249195?

I expect 'no overall majority' to move towards 50/50. LAB OM dropping to about 35% likelihood and, whilst I doubt it would happen, then the likelihood of a CON OM will obviously then increase as probabilities have to sum to 100%. As always then 'when' is the tricky bit - later this year, but I'm in no rush 

[Danny]

Apr 21, 2023 18:36:22 GMT Mr Poppy said:

By saying he'd resign if ANY of the 'bullying' charges against him were deemed to be valid then he dug his own grave.

I really do not think he did. If there was sufficient evidence to warrant dismissing him, in anyones view, then what he needed to do was avoid a formal punishment. Which he did by resigning. There will be no formal punishment, no verdict is now needed from the PM. And so when shortly the PM asks him to come back, the only thing preventing this is the fact he resigned from the job, and by then he will no doubt have changed his mind about that.

[James E]

For those interested in current betting odds, a Conservative majority is 6/1 with Paddy Power and a Labour majority 8/13 on.

www.paddypower.com/politics/uk-next-general-election

[jib]

Did anyone else notice the birdshit on that windscreen. Filthy.

[domjg]

Apr 21, 2023 19:26:26 GMT pjw1961 said:

Apr 21, 2023 19:19:37 GMT Mr Poppy said:

I obviously can't speak for Rishi (who has a background in finance) but my experience of working in the City is where I'll offer my 2c after folks read:

How bullying became Westminster’s latest culture war
www.politico.eu/article/uk-bullying-westminster-culture-war-dominic-raab-resignation/

My 2c. Being "bullied" was once considered a "rite of passage" as you started as a 'grunt' and worked your way up. 'Back office' (equiv of civil service) took a lot of what would now be considered "bullying" from the 'front office' (equiv of ministers). The hard working people in the back office progressed and the crap ones did not - many 'jumping' as they were clearly not suited to the job.

Then there was a period of the 'fun police' (HR) saying you can't behave like that ("bullying" in their opinion) anymore. Some adjustment was required and more formal guidelines WRT to 'performance' were established. 

So if someone in the 'back office' was genuinely crap at their job we then had to use 'proper process' to get them sacked (or moved onto looking after the Equities desk which I'd guess is the equivalent of the Scottish office).

TBC of course but if there is a 'culture' of 'low productivity' in the Civil Service, then even more formalised procedures with a clear set of criteria is perhaps something the 'low' performers should not have wished for. 

A tactical retreat can draw your enemies out into the open and lull them into a false sense of security 

Lose a battle. Rearm. Win the (latest culture) war. 

This from the person so fragile he blocks anyone who offers him a contrary opinion!  

Good grief. He's become a caricature of himself. The guy's a cartoon.

[pjw1961]

Julian Knight, MP for Solihull, to stand down at the next election. Not very happy with the Conservative whips, putting it mildly. (No idea who is in the right here, so won't comment).

www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/21/mp-julian-knight-stand-down-next-election-not-seek-return-tory-whip

[steve]

The brexitanian cultists are so far down the tunnel at the end of the light that they are now trying to portray serial Thug Raab as a hero, forced out of office by the lefty wokerarti.

It's like living in the bloody Matrix!

[steve]

jib
That's On the inside

[Rafwan]

Sublime …

[steve]

[ptarmigan]

I 'enjoy' the way that every Tory ministerial resignation letter seems to follow some graceless variation on the theme of "I'm resigning but it weren't my fault, guv!", albeit Raab's taken it one step further with his "activist civil servants" culture war bullshit. Sunak's response to his resignation was pathetic too.

Not exactly news but he really does seem like such a thoroughly unpleasant individual. Given the likelihood of him losing his Esher & Walton seat I sincerely hope that's it for him as a frontline politician. 

[mercian]

Apr 21, 2023 22:32:41 GMT ptarmigan said:

I 'enjoy' the way that every Tory ministerial resignation letter seems to follow some graceless variation on the theme of "I'm resigning but it weren't my fault, guv!", albeit Raab's taken it one step further with his "activist civil servants" culture war bullshit. Sunak's response to his resignation was pathetic too.

Not exactly news but he really does seem like such a thoroughly unpleasant individual. Given the likelihood of him losing his Esher & Walton seat I sincerely hope that's it for him as a frontline politician. 

From what I've read (both the report and his article in the Telegraph), I certainly wouldn't enjoy working for him. I have had unpleasant bosses in my time who took a dislike to me for some reason (probably irreverent humour and piss-taking 🤣), but in my day (pre-NHS) I never worked anywhere with a HR department. You either fought back or left for another job. On one occasion I was made redundant. Raab's behaviour seems to have been no worse than your average unpleasant boss. In private industry he'd stay and you'd go if you complained.

[moby]

Apr 21, 2023 16:50:18 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Apr 1, 2023 7:24:19 GMT moby said:

Attractive is not always credible though and despite the good ideas in the 2017 manifesto, it didn't pass scrutiny with an electorate who still elected the 'Maybot', who ran a pretty disastrous campaign. The comments I received on the doorstep regarding it were very sceptical. I was told again and again it wasn't costed and based in reality. As to your 'challenging narratives' 'tinkering' 'duplicitous' points I don't agree with your view of Starmer and certainly wouldn't see his behaviour in any way similar to the tories. I also think we all have our 'narratives' and our real job as party members is to make ours more deliverable to a public sceptical about politicians. Given that I don't think Starmers actually doing too badly. He's now on his third PM opponent and has a reasonable lead in the polls four years after an awful defeat. None of us who remained in my CLP after all the Corbynites left thought we'd stand any chance at all in 2024. A reduced Tory majority was the hope. 

Above is another in the exchange, your post quoted in full, where you dismiss the entire programme because May got a minority government. This is not a very compelling argument, as parties can lose even if policies are popular, e.g. if people don’t like the leader, or there’s a split party, competence issues, a split vote in the electorate etc.

So you might indeed keep quite a few policies despite a loss, while fixing the other reasons the party lost. This is where polling on the policies themselves is useful, showing which are popular. (Like some nationalisations…)

I consider it a compelling argument and as I said I think Keir Starmer is taking the right course and the polls bear that out. There are no alternatives available. Also we haven't seen his manifesto yet.

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Apr 22, 2023 5:41:22 GMT moby said:

Apr 21, 2023 16:50:18 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Above is another in the exchange, your post quoted in full, where you dismiss the entire programme because May got a minority government. This is not a very compelling argument, as parties can lose even if policies are popular, e.g. if people don’t like the leader, or there’s a split party, competence issues, a split vote in the electorate etc.

So you might indeed keep quite a few policies despite a loss, while fixing the other reasons the party lost. This is where polling on the policies themselves is useful, showing which are popular. (Like some nationalisations…)

I consider it a compelling argument and as I said I think Keir Starmer is taking the right course and the polls bear that out. There are no alternatives available. Also we haven't seen his manifesto yet.

That’s not a very scientific use of polling is it. He wasn’t doing very well till the Tories messed up, you can clearly see in the polling the timing of the falls associated with partygate and Truss. And at the rate he things are going he may yet fail despite the big lead he was gifted. 

I mentioned that on the old board in the run up to 2015, that the Tories could still win. Miliband himself later reflected they hadn’t been bold enough. 

But even if we accept some political expediency, there is still a need to actually consider the efficacy of the policies, and what is and isn’t feasible. To say that the left’s policies are too radical is a joke when quite a number are popular and the world is moving leftward significantly. 

The impact of things like house prices, private sector energy prices, unemployment, the legacy of Thatcher and Blair, the impact of constraints on subsidies etc., gets ignored by you right wingers as just something to be accepted, no interest at all at the impacts. A wholesale acceptance of the basic Tory approach to economics, as with many of the Liberals. Whereas they are not something that just have to be accepted and the left are bothered about those things. 

[moby]

Apr 21, 2023 18:06:30 GMT mercian said:

Apr 21, 2023 10:41:17 GMT moby said:

Sunak has clearly displayed poor judgement in appointing him in the first place, given the detail of these allegations has been generally known for months.

I've skimmed the report and it's pretty mild (and tedious) stuff.  Apparently the original complaint which kicked the others off was from 9 relatively junior people in the MOJ, some of whom had never even met Raab.  Presumably they were put up to it by more senior people. Apparently Raab was 'abrasive' not 'abusive' but was guilty of not considering how delicate the feelings of the complainers were as far as I can make out.

Tolley said two out of eight complaints against him had been upheld, concluding the deputy prime minister and justice secretary had "acted in a way which was intimidating", and had been "unreasonably and persistently aggressive" in meetings.

The findings also said his conduct while working across different government departments "involved an abuse or misuse of power in a way that undermines or humiliates".

Tolley also said he ignored three warnings to change his behaviour from the Permanent Sec. at the MOJ. Tolley also says he considers him to have lied regarding some of the incidents.


Of course Tolley's report is written in legally restrained language and went out of his way to give Raab consideration. These reports always are though.  Regarding the complaints he found were unproven, Raab was still shown to be a pretty despicable person. He regularly threatened junior officials by saying they were breaking the civil service code and inferring consequences, he would hold his hand up in their face to say 'stop talking', he would continually interrupt people to humiliate them by criticising them in public. He would organise set meetings for junior staff so that he could criticise their performance personally.  Frankly I wouldn't want a member of my family anywhere near such a person. Imo people no matter who they are should be treated with respect. I'm sure you would agree. 

[steve]

moby
We haven't seen the Labour party manifesto yet but if it contains such gems as grow the economy by "making Brexit work" and no return to freedom of movement it really won't be based on reality.

It will simply take the majority of progressive Labour supporters for granted, while throwing nonsense for consumption for those Labour potential supporters who haven't yet come to terms with the fact that their vote for Brexit was a massive error of judgement.

As such it would literally not be worth the paper it was printed on.

But Labour supporters can live in hope I suppose.

Still think Labour will win with a significant majority though the toxicity of the current regime sets a remarkably low bar.

[moby]

Apr 22, 2023 6:04:36 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Apr 22, 2023 5:41:22 GMT moby said:

I consider it a compelling argument and as I said I think Keir Starmer is taking the right course and the polls bear that out. There are no alternatives available. Also we haven't seen his manifesto yet.

The impact of things like house prices, private sector energy prices, unemployment, the legacy of Thatcher and Blair, the impact of constraints on subsidies etc., gets ignored by you right wingers as just something to be accepted, no interest at all at the impacts. A wholesale acceptance of the basic Tory approach to economics, as with many of the Liberals. Whereas the left are bothered about those things. 

Politics often isn't scientific and isn't just about polling either. I'm not ignoring the issues you mention and I'm not a right winger. I just don't see the world through your eyes.

[steve]

moby
Indeed , the incidents that Tolley didn't find proven wasn't an implication that they didn't happen, just that the low level aggression and pig ignorance of Raab didn't meet the criteria for bullying based on the available information.

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Apr 22, 2023 6:12:38 GMT moby said:

Apr 22, 2023 6:04:36 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

The impact of things like house prices, private sector energy prices, unemployment, the legacy of Thatcher and Blair, the impact of constraints on subsidies etc., gets ignored by you right wingers as just something to be accepted, no interest at all at the impacts. A wholesale acceptance of the basic Tory approach to economics, as with many of the Liberals. Whereas the left are bothered about those things. 

Politics often isn't scientific and isn't just about polling either. I'm not ignoring the issues you mention and I'm not a right winger. I just don't see the world through your eyes.

Talk about denying reality. The impact of things like unemployment, corporations inflating energy prices, inflated house prices is not just something seen through my eyes*. just as the adoption of left wing policies on things like price subsidies - as something necessary rather than radical - is also not something that only happened through my eyes.

* (unless living in a simulation, which the way things are going, one might not rule out)
 

[steve]

c-a-r-f-r-e-w

"The impact of things like house prices, private sector energy prices, unemployment, the legacy of Thatcher and Blair, the impact of constraints on subsidies etc., gets ignored by you right wingers as just something to be accepted, no interest at all at the impacts. A wholesale acceptance of the basic Tory approach to economics, as with many of the Liberals."

That really isn't consistent at all with any of the thinking of any liberal democrats I know. But to be fair the present iteration of the liberal democrat party would by most definitions fit into the category of mainstream left of centre social democracy and excluding the Orange book Clegg interruption it mostly has.

I wasn't a member of any political party at the time as a serving police officer and enthusiastic Labour voter but I really couldn't see much to object to about the lib dems under either Ashdown or Kennedy, neither of whom I would have thought likely to have accepted the Tory coalition under the terms agreed and both of whom were superior leaders to either Sunak or Starmer.

[moby]

Apr 21, 2023 18:36:22 GMT Mr Poppy said:

Apr 21, 2023 18:06:30 GMT mercian said:

I've skimmed the report and it's pretty mild (and tedious) stuff.  Apparently the original complaint which kicked the others off was from 9 relatively junior people in the MOJ, some of whom had never even met Raab.  Presumably they were put up to it by more senior people. Apparently Raab was 'abrasive' not 'abusive' but was guilty of not considering how delicate the feelings of the complainers were as far as I can make out.

Since my name came up in the reply then I'll respond with my 2c.

Raab made the schoolboy error of being a hostage to fortune. As someone with a legal background he should not have gone "all in" with what he should have known was a deck stacked against him. 

By saying he'd resign if ANY of the 'bullying' charges against him were deemed to be valid then he dug his own grave.

He then had to keep his word and 'resign' (although given it took 25hrs then I expect he needed some 'persuading' to jump before being pushed).

I've posted the YG snap poll and made the comparison to the 'Owen (Paterson) goal' that Boris tried to defend. 

Given Starmer has "gone low" with racist personal attacks then Rishi can "go high" and show that CON are the party of integrity. 

Let the 'twit-terati' think they have won a victory but Raab was "damaged goods" and had to take one for the team. I expect "justice will be served" in due course but some dishes are best served cold. 

Raab took a calculated risk and made the 'resign' comments hoping that this would put Tolley under pressure to come to conclusions in Raabs favour. Tolley actually bent over backwards to help Raab but too much evidence had amassed. Sunak can't go high by the way because he appointed him knowing what was in the pipeline.

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Apr 22, 2023 6:26:37 GMT steve said:

c-a-r-f-r-e-w

"The impact of things like house prices, private sector energy prices, unemployment, the legacy of Thatcher and Blair, the impact of constraints on subsidies etc., gets ignored by you right wingers as just something to be accepted, no interest at all at the impacts. A wholesale acceptance of the basic Tory approach to economics, as with many of the Liberals."

That really isn't consistent at all with any of the thinking of any liberal democrats I know. But to be fair the present iteration of the liberal democrat party would by most definitions fit into the category of mainstream left of centre social democracy and excluding the Orange book Clegg interruption it mostly has.

I wasn't a member of any political party at the time as a serving police officer and enthusiastic Labour voter but I really couldn't see much to object to about the lib dems under either Ashdown or Kennedy, neither of whom I would have thought likely to have accepted the Tory coalition under the terms agreed and both of whom were superior leaders to either Sunak or Starmer.

I agree with you Steve. I acknowledge that there are forms of Liberalism that are more left wing, and I’ve been influenced by some of that on this board, but yes, I am referring more to the party aspects of it, how it gets expressed in practice. (I also have issues with the cuckoo thing, but you aren’t one of those!)

I mean, regarding the EU, I’m not outright left wing in my views, I am partially Liberal - I’m ok with free movement and the single market. It’s the subsidy thing I have issues with, but they are shifting on that, and the way corporates have too much power to influence things.

Re: Kennedy, yes the Libs at one point positioned themselves to the left of Labour, which was quite effective until Cleggo spoiled things a bit…