26-Nov 2022 : LAB: 50% / CON: 27% / LDEM: 9% / GRN: 4%

[Deleted]

Mar 28, 2023 12:47:38 GMT somerjohn said:

Colin: "I am left wondering why the producers of 80% of the raw ingredient -being mostly developing countries -aren't encouraged by global economic lawmakers to retain value added by refining their own product ,and stop importing white sugar, whilst producers of the 20% of the raw ingredient aren't encouraged to import more refined sugar and produce less beet. !"

I agree it's complicated.

As to your question about why 'global economic lawmakers' don't encourage small cane producers to do their own refining, I think there are two answers. One is to look at where power lies amongst those global lawmakers: it's where the big refiners operate. The second is free market forces and economies of scale. The UK essentially supports two huge refiners: one for cane, one for beet. A refinery in, say, Malawi will be hopelessly uneconomic by comparison, unless protected by huge tariffs. Which leads to corruption, smuggling and elevated prices. And if the EU (or UK) lets in refined sugar from Australia, Brazil etc then the domestic industry suffers and the small producers too (because no way are Brazil and Australia going to buy cane from the small producers).

I think the answer is for huge economic actors, with an enlightened awareness of where their self-interest lies, to develop policies supporting third-world development. Which is why I tend to look to the EU in matters like this. But perhaps the UK can take a lead .... as with sugar (not).

Thanks

Its a brutal business isn't it ?

Just so we can sweeten our drinks and confectionary.

worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/sugar-consumption-by-country

mad really:-

www.who.int/news/item/04-03-2015-who-calls-on-countries-to-reduce-sugars-intake-among-adults-and-children


 

[steamdrivenandy]

Mar 28, 2023 12:42:18 GMT neilj said:

Breakdown of age and party of MPs leaving, not only are many more tories leaving they are also significantly younger

It's not quite so stark if you look at it in % terms of the current standings.

7.9% of Tories
6.1% of Labour 

Surely our MP (Bill Cash) who will likely be 84 come the next GE can't be considering a further five years, can he?

[domjg]

Mar 28, 2023 13:01:33 GMT colin said:

Mar 28, 2023 12:47:38 GMT somerjohn said:

Colin: "I am left wondering why the producers of 80% of the raw ingredient -being mostly developing countries -aren't encouraged by global economic lawmakers to retain value added by refining their own product ,and stop importing white sugar, whilst producers of the 20% of the raw ingredient aren't encouraged to import more refined sugar and produce less beet. !"

I agree it's complicated.

As to your question about why 'global economic lawmakers' don't encourage small cane producers to do their own refining, I think there are two answers. One is to look at where power lies amongst those global lawmakers: it's where the big refiners operate. The second is free market forces and economies of scale. The UK essentially supports two huge refiners: one for cane, one for beet. A refinery in, say, Malawi will be hopelessly uneconomic by comparison, unless protected by huge tariffs. Which leads to corruption, smuggling and elevated prices. And if the EU (or UK) lets in refined sugar from Australia, Brazil etc then the domestic industry suffers and the small producers too (because no way are Brazil and Australia going to buy cane from the small producers).

I think the answer is for huge economic actors, with an enlightened awareness of where their self-interest lies, to develop policies supporting third-world development. Which is why I tend to look to the EU in matters like this. But perhaps the UK can take a lead .... as with sugar (not).

Thanks

Its a brutal business isn't it ?

Just so we can sweeten our drinks and confectionary.

worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/sugar-consumption-by-country

mad really:-

www.who.int/news/item/04-03-2015-who-calls-on-countries-to-reduce-sugars-intake-among-adults-and-children


 

Pleasantly surprised that the UK is not higher on that sugar consumption list. Refined sugar is a menace and a largely reduced consumption of it would do wonders for wider health I'm certain.

As a parent of a six year old it's a daily (often losing) battle to stop her consuming sometimes far more sugar than she should when so many events, celebrations, snacks for children are chock full of it (Current Easter hoopla in the shops being a case in point) and she's so determined to get it at every opportunity. It feels like the aim is to get them young. Every visit to a cafe is a battle and we even have to snatch the little bowl of sugar sachets off the table before she clocks them but hey I guess it was ever thus.

School doesn't help either offering them a sweet pudding every day of the school week. Sure fruit is also offered as an option but how likely is that to be chosen..

[graham]

Mar 28, 2023 11:53:58 GMT steve said:

Entirely agree with the NEC Labour's chances at the next election would be significantly diminished if Corbyn was allowed to stand.

I appreciate that there are people on the left of the party that will be upset by his exclusion but in general these are the same people who would put doctrinal purity above electability.
Not being a complete wombat I very much doubt we are likely to see a liberal democrat government after the next election and on the principle of by far the lesser of two evils clearly a Labour led government would be a significant improvement on the corrupt charlatans currently in power.

/photo/1

I don't like this at all. It bears the hallmarks of authoritarianism and is almost Stalinist. It now looks as if I shall be voting Green again next time in this Norwich North marginal.

It is a serious political error by Starmer to make an issue of this at all. The candidature of former party leaders has minimal impact on Voting Intention.Allowing Corbyn to stand would probably affect national vote shares less than a decision by the Tories to allow Johnson to stand again. This very much confirms my sense that re- Starmer's political antennae , ' there is something missing'.  We saw it first 2 years ago with the by elections at Hartlepool and Batley & Spen - and here we are again.

[JohnC]

Mar 28, 2023 13:44:10 GMT graham said:

Mar 28, 2023 11:53:58 GMT steve said:

Entirely agree with the NEC Labour's chances at the next election would be significantly diminished if Corbyn was allowed to stand.

I appreciate that there are people on the left of the party that will be upset by his exclusion but in general these are the same people who would put doctrinal purity above electability.
Not being a complete wombat I very much doubt we are likely to see a liberal democrat government after the next election and on the principle of by far the lesser of two evils clearly a Labour led government would be a significant improvement on the corrupt charlatans currently in power.

/photo/1

I don't like this at all. It bears the hallmarks of authoritarianism and is almost Stalinist. It now looks as if I shall be voting Green again next time in this Norwich North marginal.

I guess if Corbyn suddenly disappears, we can assume the 'almost' is redundant.

[Mr Poppy]

Starmer has taken back control of the NEC 👏 👏

NEC motion to block Corbyn as Labour candidate passes by 22 votes to 12
labourlist.org/2023/03/nec-motion-to-block-corbyn-as-labour-candidate-passes-by-22-votes-to-12/

Happy to predict there will be noticeable impact on polling (eg no sudden jump in LAB'19 moving to WNV, DK or anywhere else) BUT that would hide the constituency level impact.

Corbyn will hopefully call a by-election soon (although I doubt it) and might keep his seat BUT

a/ none of his comrades in the SCG will 'go on strike' or attempt to form a new 'Real LAB' (Far-Left) party
b/ seats with high % of Corbynite/ista types in N.London/etc are very safe LAB seats

So LAB maybe lose 1 seat in next GE

Where as a lot of 'marginal voters' in 'marginal seats' will see Starmer has taken back control of LAB and hence see LAB as someone they could consider voting for. 

So well played Starmer. With Cor-binned then LAB have made themselves more electable. Hopefully Starmer can now do policy (given he has full control of NEC and party levers). 

[graham]

I am not - and never have been - a Corbynite , but Starmer has just lost my vote for his party at the GE. I am sure I will not be alone.

[Mark]

Re-Corbyn, can't say I'm surprised, but, I think Starmer has handled it badly.

If he'd said "he never apologised for his comment re-anti-semitism", whatever you think about that, it's why Corbyn was thrown out and a ready made excuse/reason to keep him out.

Even many of those who disagreed with his ejection would most likely shrug.

Essentially saying that it is being done as Corbyn was a vote loser/did badly in 2019 when Corbyn was only ever going to be a back bencher in a Starmer government, that just gets people's backs up and risks alienating at least some of those on the left of the party and risks bleeding some of the more left wing Labour votes, which should be easy picking.

If Labour is set for the kind of landslide that current polls suggest, that is one thing, but, in a tight race, which it could well be, Starmer may live to regret the way he has done this.

[hireton]

Mar 28, 2023 13:44:10 GMT graham said:

Mar 28, 2023 11:53:58 GMT steve said:

Entirely agree with the NEC Labour's chances at the next election would be significantly diminished if Corbyn was allowed to stand.

I appreciate that there are people on the left of the party that will be upset by his exclusion but in general these are the same people who would put doctrinal purity above electability.
Not being a complete wombat I very much doubt we are likely to see a liberal democrat government after the next election and on the principle of by far the lesser of two evils clearly a Labour led government would be a significant improvement on the corrupt charlatans currently in power.

/photo/1

I don't like this at all. It bears the hallmarks of authoritarianism and is almost Stalinist. It now looks as if I shall be voting Green again next time in this Norwich North marginal.

It is a serious political error by Starmer to make an issue of this at all. The candidature of former party leaders has minimal impact on Voting Intention.Allowing Corbyn to stand would probably affect national vote shares less than a decision by the Tories to allow Johnson to stand again. This very much confirms my sense that re- Starmer's political antennae , ' there is something missing'.  We saw it first 2 years ago with the by elections at Hartlepool and Batley & Spen - and here we are again.

Or alternatively Starmer's decisive action will stand in stark contract to the Tory party's toleration of Johnson standing as a candidate for them.  It could be very good politics.

[oldnat]

Mar 28, 2023 13:23:27 GMT domjg said:

Mar 28, 2023 13:01:33 GMT colin said:

Pleasantly surprised that the UK is not higher on that sugar consumption list. Refined sugar is a menace and a largely reduced consumption of it would do wonders for wider health I'm certain.

As a parent of a six year old it's a daily (often losing) battle to stop her consuming sometimes far more sugar than she should when so many events, celebrations, snacks for children are chock full of it (Current Easter hoopla in the shops being a case in point) and she's so determined to get it at every opportunity. It feels like the aim is to get them young. Every visit to a cafe is a battle and we even have to snatch the little bowl of sugar sachets off the table before she clocks them but hey I guess it was ever thus.

School doesn't help either offering them a sweet pudding every day of the school week. Sure fruit is also offered as an option but how likely is that to be chosen..

That surprises me. These are the menus my grandkids (and every other Glasgow pupil) are offered -
"Select a main meal, drink and dessert. Choose as much fruit and veg, soup and bread as you like.

All meals include choice of plain semi-skimmed milk and refresh water

All options include - yoghurt and fresh fruit for dessert

All dishes are served with a choice of seasonal vegetables or side salad"

www.glasgow.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=56675&p=0

[jimjam]

Graham seems to think that encouraging a sexual assaulter to stand down is a sign of poor judgement!

(He could only encourage anyhow as rightly the whip was withdrawn from Mike Hill).

Also once Tracey Brabin was selected as mayoral candidate she was obliged t stand down as an MP at some point.

Like all politicians Starmer has made missteps but not the ones Graham suggests imo.

[oldnat]

[steve]

Sunak says he wants to get rid of beggars.

Here's one he could get rid of now.

youtu.be/goiCxRKtYHM

[graham]

Mar 28, 2023 14:43:50 GMT hireton said:

Mar 28, 2023 13:44:10 GMT graham said:

I don't like this at all. It bears the hallmarks of authoritarianism and is almost Stalinist. It now looks as if I shall be voting Green again next time in this Norwich North marginal.

It is a serious political error by Starmer to make an issue of this at all. The candidature of former party leaders has minimal impact on Voting Intention.Allowing Corbyn to stand would probably affect national vote shares less than a decision by the Tories to allow Johnson to stand again. This very much confirms my sense that re- Starmer's political antennae , ' there is something missing'.  We saw it first 2 years ago with the by elections at Hartlepool and Batley & Spen - and here we are again.

Or alternatively Starmer's decisive action will stand in stark contract to the Tory party's toleration of Johnson standing as a candidate for them.  It could be very good politics.

I really do not believe that voters pay much attention to former leaders.  Who really cared about Ted Heath by the time of the 1979 election? Who cared about Michael Foot by 1987?

[oldnat]

Mar 28, 2023 15:27:52 GMT graham said:

Mar 28, 2023 14:43:50 GMT hireton said:

Or alternatively Starmer's decisive action will stand in stark contract to the Tory party's toleration of Johnson standing as a candidate for them.  It could be very good politics.

I really do not believe that voters pay much attention to former leaders.  Who really cared about Ted Heath by the time of the 1979 election? Who cared about Michael Foot by 1987?

BBC Scotland obviously don't think that, as they give Gordon Brown's monologues extensive coverage.

[graham]

Mar 28, 2023 15:07:29 GMT jimjam said:

Graham seems to think that encouraging a sexual assaulter to stand down is a sign of poor judgement!

(He could only encourage anyhow as rightly the whip was withdrawn from Mike Hill).

Also once Tracey Brabin was selected as mayoral candidate she was obliged t stand down as an MP at some point.

That was not the point at all . Rather the issue was the timing of those by elections. Had both been held in the late Autumn of 2021 - rather than early May and the beginning of July - it is likely that the seats would have been comfortably retained. That is where Starmer's lack of political 'nous' revealed itself.

With hindsight , I am in two minds as to whether it might have turned out better had Labour lost Batley&Spen in July 2021. That would probably have been the end of Starmer.

[steve]

Regarding the latest atrocity in the U.S.

"The Senate chaplain commented on yesterday’s mass shooting, delivering fiery remarks about the need to move beyond thoughts and prayers in response to gun violence.

On Tuesday, Senate chaplain Barry Black began his morning prayer for the Senate with a plea on addressing gun violence.

“When babies die at a church school, it is time for us to move beyond thoughts and prayers. Remind our lawmakers of the words of the British statesman Edmund Burke: ‘All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing,” said Black during his impassioned prayer."

Republicans are hell bent on " protecting " children from the dangers of drag queens telling them children's stories but are even more determined that their parents and elder siblings keep their assault rifles so they can murder children on an industrial scale.

[graham]

Mar 28, 2023 15:32:26 GMT oldnat said:

Mar 28, 2023 15:27:52 GMT graham said:

I really do not believe that voters pay much attention to former leaders.  Who really cared about Ted Heath by the time of the 1979 election? Who cared about Michael Foot by 1987?

BBC Scotland obviously don't think that, as they give Gordon Brown's monologues extensive coverage.

But what about the voters in Scotland? How interested are they nowadays in Gordon Brown?

[Rafwan]

Mar 28, 2023 11:53:58 GMT steve said:

Entirely agree with the NEC Labour's chances at the next election would be significantly diminished if Corbyn was allowed to stand.

I appreciate that there are people on the left of the party that will be upset by his exclusion but in general these are the same people who would put doctrinal purity above electability.
Not being a complete wombat I very much doubt we are likely to see a liberal democrat government after the next election and on the principle of by far the lesser of two evils clearly a Labour led government would be a significant improvement on the corrupt charlatans currently in power.


/photo/1

Not really sure what doctrinal purity is. I know some people would say it is what underpins many of your posts.

You are right though about diminished chances if Corbyn is on the Labour ticket. This is because there is a whole raft of well-placed and influential people (identified in multiple sources) who would open the floodgates of rage, making Labour once again look deeply divided and unelectable. No doubt the hon member for Barking is standing ready, as last time, to kick the whole thing off with some choice observations at a suitable moment behind the Speaker’s chair. What is unpleasant about this is that, again, it is based upon a damaging falsehood.

Graham, in the interests of the greater good, please to change your mind back again.

[steamdrivenandy]

Mar 28, 2023 14:43:50 GMT hireton said:

Mar 28, 2023 13:44:10 GMT graham said:

Or alternatively Starmer's decisive action will stand in stark contract to the Tory party's toleration of Johnson standing as a candidate for them.  It could be very good politics.

I agree.

Starmer is doing all he can to keep the 'disaffected, but could turn out for a GE Tories' at home come the day. Allowing Corbyn to stand would give the Tories a free hand to mention it at every opportunity and wind up the old duffers enough to activate them. Rule No. 1 'Don't frighten the horses'.

[graham]

Mar 28, 2023 15:40:27 GMT Rafwan said:

Mar 28, 2023 11:53:58 GMT steve said:

Entirely agree with the NEC Labour's chances at the next election would be significantly diminished if Corbyn was allowed to stand.

I appreciate that there are people on the left of the party that will be upset by his exclusion but in general these are the same people who would put doctrinal purity above electability.
Not being a complete wombat I very much doubt we are likely to see a liberal democrat government after the next election and on the principle of by far the lesser of two evils clearly a Labour led government would be a significant improvement on the corrupt charlatans currently in power.


/photo/1

Not really sure what doctrinal purity is. I know some people would say it is what underpins many of your posts.

You are right though about diminished chances if Corbyn is on the Labour ticket. This is because there is a whole raft of well-placed and influential people (identified in multiple sources) who would open the floodgates of rage, making Labour once again look deeply divided and unelectable. No doubt the hon member for Barking is standing ready, as last time, to kick the whole thing off with some choice observations at a suitable moment behind the Speaker’s chair. What is unpleasant about this is that, again, it is based upon a damaging falsehood.

Graham, in the interests of the greater good, please to change your mind back again.

I disagree. People would have largely ignored Corbyn being a candidate had Starmer not made it a big issue for himself. Allowing Corbyn to stand again would be no different to permiiting John Mcdonnel and Diane Abbot to do so.

[oldnat]

Mar 28, 2023 15:37:58 GMT graham said:

Mar 28, 2023 15:32:26 GMT oldnat said:

BBC Scotland obviously don't think that, as they give Gordon Brown's monologues extensive coverage.

But what about the voters in Scotland? How interested are they nowadays in Gordon Brown?

Probably not much, as VI after his appearances show no sign of change, but BBC Scotland must think that he just might persuade some. Another good reason not to pay the licence fee to have propaganda beamed into one's home.

[leftieliberal]

Mar 28, 2023 13:17:30 GMT steamdrivenandy said:

Mar 28, 2023 12:42:18 GMT neilj said:

Breakdown of age and party of MPs leaving, not only are many more tories leaving they are also significantly younger

It's not quite so stark if you look at it in % terms of the current standings.

7.9% of Tories
6.1% of Labour 

Surely our MP (Bill Cash) who will likely be 84 come the next GE can't be considering a further five years, can he?

A mere spring chicken; over in the USA both Dianne Feinstein (Dem) and Chuck Grassley (Rep) are over 89 already. Strom Thurmond (Rep) finally retired at age 100.

[leftieliberal]

Mar 28, 2023 15:34:45 GMT graham said:

Mar 28, 2023 15:07:29 GMT jimjam said:

Graham seems to think that encouraging a sexual assaulter to stand down is a sign of poor judgement!

(He could only encourage anyhow as rightly the whip was withdrawn from Mike Hill).

Also once Tracey Brabin was selected as mayoral candidate she was obliged t stand down as an MP at some point.

That was not the point at all . Rather the issue was the timing of those by elections. Had both been held in the late Autumn of 2021 - rather than early May and the beginning of July - it is likely that the seats would have been comfortably retained. That is where Starmer's lack of political 'nous' revealed itself.

With hindsight , I am in two minds as to whether it might have turned out better had Labour lost Batley&Spen in July 2021. That would probably have been the end of Starmer.

So you think it is right to deprive constituents of the services of their MP for many months, just for a questionable political advantage? There should be strict time limits on how long a Parliamentary seat can be kept vacant. Three months seems more than long enough.

[steve]

Rafwan

"Not really sure what doctrinal purity is. I know some people would say it is what underpins many of your posts."

I like to think a reasonable grasp of reality underpins my posts.

[domjg]

Mar 28, 2023 15:15:19 GMT oldnat said:

Hopefully it will involve a lot less trauma than the other partition..

[pjw1961]

Mar 28, 2023 15:15:19 GMT oldnat said:

It is an amusing line, but realistically there is no chance of Sunak agreeing to another Indie Ref, so won't be happening. 

[domjg]

Mar 28, 2023 15:07:27 GMT oldnat said:

Mar 28, 2023 13:23:27 GMT domjg said:

Pleasantly surprised that the UK is not higher on that sugar consumption list. Refined sugar is a menace and a largely reduced consumption of it would do wonders for wider health I'm certain.

As a parent of a six year old it's a daily (often losing) battle to stop her consuming sometimes far more sugar than she should when so many events, celebrations, snacks for children are chock full of it (Current Easter hoopla in the shops being a case in point) and she's so determined to get it at every opportunity. It feels like the aim is to get them young. Every visit to a cafe is a battle and we even have to snatch the little bowl of sugar sachets off the table before she clocks them but hey I guess it was ever thus.

School doesn't help either offering them a sweet pudding every day of the school week. Sure fruit is also offered as an option but how likely is that to be chosen..

That surprises me. These are the menus my grandkids (and every other Glasgow pupil) are offered -
"Select a main meal, drink and dessert. Choose as much fruit and veg, soup and bread as you like.

All meals include choice of plain semi-skimmed milk and refresh water

All options include - yoghurt and fresh fruit for dessert

All dishes are served with a choice of seasonal vegetables or side salad"

www.glasgow.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=56675&p=0

Mmn. Just asked my daughter what pudding was today. Ginger cake and custard.. 

[birdseye]

Mar 28, 2023 13:44:10 GMT graham said:

Mar 28, 2023 11:53:58 GMT steve said:

Entirely agree with the NEC Labour's chances at the next election would be significantly diminished if Corbyn was allowed to stand.

I appreciate that there are people on the left of the party that will be upset by his exclusion but in general these are the same people who would put doctrinal purity above electability.
Not being a complete wombat I very much doubt we are likely to see a liberal democrat government after the next election and on the principle of by far the lesser of two evils clearly a Labour led government would be a significant improvement on the corrupt charlatans currently in power.

/photo/1

I don't like this at all. It bears the hallmarks of authoritarianism and is almost Stalinist. It now looks as if I shall be voting Green again next time in this Norwich North marginal.

It is a serious political error by Starmer to make an issue of this at all. The candidature of former party leaders has minimal impact on Voting Intention.Allowing Corbyn to stand would probably affect national vote shares less than a decision by the Tories to allow Johnson to stand again. This very much confirms my sense that re- Starmer's political antennae , ' there is something missing'.  We saw it first 2 years ago with the by elections at Hartlepool and Batley & Spen - and here we are again.

Whilst I dislike Corbyn and what he stands for, I like even less the authoritarian Chinese style approach of Starmer. I would trust Corbyn to be honest far more than I would trist Starmer.

[birdseye]

Mar 28, 2023 12:42:18 GMT neilj said:

Breakdown of age and party of MPs leaving, not only are many more tories leaving they are also significantly younger

To be expected.Since the outcome of the next GE is almost sure, those Tory MPs in marginal seats will be starting to look for replacement jobs. Wouldnt you in their position?