Danny
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Post by Danny on Mar 28, 2023 10:08:35 GMT
For those who think the UK-Rwanda scheme is the most evil thing since 1930-40s Europe, comparable to Putin or whatever the twitterati are saying: Just to be clear then, your plan is to leave these people back in their homelands to suffer and die? The reason for not processing claimants claims and the reason for keeping them in detention camps and the reason for sending them to rwanda are all to make the whole process so horrible they dont bother coming. But that still ignores the fact the world has tens of millions of people living in appalling conditions and maybe a billion living in conditions we would consider wholly unacceptable. So what do you plan to do about this? Now the traditional answer is 'absolutely nothing, leave them to rot'. Thats perfectly fine, just so long as we are clear that is your answer. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2023 10:11:26 GMT
... the solution proposed in the article is summarized with :-
"The EU may be pressed to curb its protectionist instincts, reducing the regulatory hurdles that block African products from the European market."... Thank you for the links. It is currently a 'live issue' in UK (votes in HoC last night, etc) and #3 priority in most important issues (although it's not worthy of being a 'mission' for LAB). I'll repost your links and a summary of last night's HoC votes on the Immigration thread so they are easy to find for future reference. I would agree that we should help Africa help itself via trade and via building projects and tourism etc (eg building projects in Rwanda and 'Visit Rwanda'* who sponsor Arsenal). Africa is a beautiful continent with lots of natural resources, stunning scenery and wildlife, etc. However, our near neighbours prefer the 'stick' approach: "The bloc would use "as leverage all relevant EU policies, instruments and tools, including diplomacy, development, trade and visas, as well as legal migration," according to the final communique"www.euractiv.com/section/justice-home-affairs/news/eu-leaders-harden-rhetoric-on-migrant-returns-but-divide-on-border-fences/* www.visitrwanda.comI think that this is only going to get worse. From Africa for the reasons given in the article I linked to-"economic growth and opportunities are not keeping pace with population growth.". ie flight from economic disadvantage. From the Middle East-Flight from autocratic theocracy , and war. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Mar 28, 2023 10:11:54 GMT
Nor do I see any hard evidence that Corbyn was a brexit facilitator. No...he probably stood eye to eye on this with colleagues who otherwise disagreed with him. |
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Post by alec on Mar 28, 2023 10:16:30 GMT
Danny - "Not at all, I know people died. I had it from a local care home worker that absolutely old people died. There was a bit of a wave of it. But its not unusual for old people in care homes to die of flu. And you will recall, in fact you insist upon it, no one was looking for covid in the Uk in 2019 because it couldnt have existed yet and didnt even have a name." Well you've dug your own grave there I'm afraid. If people really did die of a mystery illness in Hastings when you say they did, they would have been swabbed and a mystery infection identified, and public health would have been crawling all over those care homes until they knew what it was. That's the way the system works. Sorry to say this, but you really are talking straight out of your arse.
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Post by alec on Mar 28, 2023 10:19:18 GMT
Danny - " covid could have cost 3 million life years. Whereas austerity since 2010 cost 10 million life years" Don't recognise those numbers, but 10m/13 is less than 3m/3 so covid seems a bigger impact than austerity?
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Post by jimjam on Mar 28, 2023 10:28:28 GMT
Alec/Danny - please.
You are putting people off visiting the site.
Yes - someone told me they checked in and were put off by you 2.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Mar 28, 2023 10:37:35 GMT
Well you've dug your own grave there I'm afraid. If people really did die of a mystery illness in Hastings when you say they did, they would have been swabbed and a mystery infection identified, and public health would have been crawling all over those care homes until they knew what it was. That's the way the system works. I know of two people who were in hospital with a dangerous respiratory illness late 2019 where the hospital could not identify the causal agent. You are wrong, this situation is quite normal. 10,000 a year deaths from unidentified pneumonias (ie 2019 covid would have come under this). Testing is usually done to confirm a diagnosis as tests are specific to a particular disease, or indeed strain of disease. You cannot just give every patient every possible test because the cost would be utterly prohibitive, and you still likely would have many unknowns. Your faith in medicine is touching but unrealistic. If you asked a doctor to explain why those couple of people were so ill, he would likely have said we dont know exactly what it is, but because they are so old they cannot fight it. |
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Mar 28, 2023 10:47:37 GMT
I think that this is only going to get worse. From Africa for the reasons given in the article I linked to-" economic growth and opportunities are not keeping pace with population growth.". ie flight from economic disadvantage. From the Middle East-Flight from autocratic theocracy , and war. I'm not disagreeing but Africa (notably the sub-Saharan region) has huge potential. "Africa, one of the world's largest continents, has plenty of habitable land for its booming population. According to the UN, the continent is home to about 30% of the world's mineral reserves, 12% of the world's oil and 8% of the natural gas reserves. Some 60% of the world’s arable lands are located in Africa"
www.dw.com/en/africas-population-boom-may-boost-economy-global-relevance/a-63846133Make sure to watch the video at bottom of the above link. Guardian readers have a 'white saviour' view of places like Rwanda. Instead of the (relatively*) rich Africans paying people traffickers to get them into Europe we need to encourage Africans to help build Africa and realise the massive potential that they have in Africa. As comparison: China (1.4billion people, 9.6million km2) and India (1.3billion people, 3.3million km2) have less land and less resources than Africa (30.4million km2) Stable and safe political situations in African and Middle East countries is obviously important as well but countries such as Syria and Afghanistan have huge potential as well. So IMO economic growth and opportunity COULD keep pace with population growth, although ideally the population growth does also slow down in some countries, notably sub-Sahara Africa. China slowed down it's population growth (and arguably overdid it as they now face an ageing population as well). * The very rich ones can pay to study in the West and some do return home to help build their countries of birth/heritage - although some of those types also seek to continue/establish dictatorships so I'm certainly not saying it is an easy task to realise the potential of Africa. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Mar 28, 2023 10:50:25 GMT
Sturgeon has written her letter of resignation to the King.
Whether Elvis acknowledges receipt of it is open to question.
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steve
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Post by steve on Mar 28, 2023 10:51:36 GMT
Latest head at the trough Gavin Williamson, Williamson is on to it being a set up but it's clear he had no problem with earning vast quantities of wonga if it had been real. youtu.be/TUP8pgRji6Y |
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steve
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Post by steve on Mar 28, 2023 10:53:08 GMT
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Post by bardin1 on Mar 28, 2023 11:07:05 GMT
Sturgeon has written her letter of resignation to the King.
Whether Elvis acknowledges receipt of it is open to question. The only King I recognise is Willie Bauld encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTWTRz-GaPXkxUG85vYCqXJi8jw5wGCpcaEksDeYQzY27V-7R4pAs the 1960s song used to go (to the tune of My Old Man's a Dustman, he wears a Dustman's hat) "Khrushchev came to Britain, second time he'd been, He met Sir Winston Churchill, he even met the queen, A message came from Moscow, he had to be recalled, He said I can't go just now, cause I've not met Willie Bauld. Oh my old man's a hearts fan, he wears a hearts fan's hat, He hates the flipping hibees, so what do you think of that?" They don't make 'em like that anymore |
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Post by leftieliberal on Mar 28, 2023 11:18:58 GMT
Oh my old man's a hearts fan, he wears a hearts fan's hat, He hates the flipping hibees, so what do you think of that?" What is it about Scottish football fans: 'the hate is strong in this one'? Last weekend we even had a coach of the Rangers womens' team headbutting the manager of the Celtic women's team at the end of the match. Yes, I know that it is known as a "Glasgow kiss". |
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Post by leftieliberal on Mar 28, 2023 11:24:28 GMT
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Post by bardin1 on Mar 28, 2023 11:24:37 GMT
Oh my old man's a hearts fan, he wears a hearts fan's hat, He hates the flipping hibees, so what do you think of that?" What is it about Scottish football fans: 'the hate is strong in this one'? Last weekend we even had a coach of the Rangers womens' team headbutting the manager of the Celtic women's team at the end of the match. Yes, I know that it is known as a "Glasgow kiss". This was 1960s song. The rivalry between the Edinburgh teams is nowhere near as 'hate-filled' today as that between the Glasgow ones as to a certain extent the sectarian elements are not so prevalent, and are fading faster. The Edinburgh fans were mixed together in the terracing at derby games until the late 60s when the gang culture started to pervade and 'troubles' spilled into Scotland to some extent |
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Post by davem on Mar 28, 2023 11:25:07 GMT
Well you've dug your own grave there I'm afraid. If people really did die of a mystery illness in Hastings when you say they did, they would have been swabbed and a mystery infection identified, and public health would have been crawling all over those care homes until they knew what it was. That's the way the system works. I know of two people who were in hospital with a dangerous respiratory illness late 2019 where the hospital could not identify the causal agent. You are wrong, this situation is quite normal. 10,000 a year deaths from unidentified pneumonias (ie 2019 covid would have come under this). Testing is usually done to confirm a diagnosis as tests are specific to a particular disease, or indeed strain of disease. You cannot just give every patient every possible test because the cost would be utterly prohibitive, and you still likely would have many unknowns. Your faith in medicine is touching but unrealistic. If you asked a doctor to explain why those couple of people were so ill, he would likely have said we dont know exactly what it is, but because they are so old they cannot fight it. As others have said, there is a separate thread for these discussions. Can you please have your Covid arguments there. As others have said both of you are disrespecting other users by using this thread for your long running and now repetitive argument. |
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Post by bardin1 on Mar 28, 2023 11:26:24 GMT
It continues apace. They are currently trying to kill the post offices by making parcel post entirely online (it is far cheaper to buy postage online than it is to pay at the counter, and they will now pick up from your door at the same postage cost - goodbye local post offices) |
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Post by somerjohn on Mar 28, 2023 11:27:27 GMT
Colin: "From Africa for the reasons given in the article I linked to-"economic growth and opportunities are not keeping pace with population growth.". ie flight from economic disadvantage."This ties in a bit with my earlier post about the post-brexit change to the UK's sugar import regime. Under the EU, imports of raw cane sugar were subject to tariffs, which led in time to most UK sugar consumption coming from beet rather than cane (and the growth of beet-based Associated British Sugar at the expense of cane refiner Tate and Lyle). Happy days for Bury St Edmunds! T&L continued importing raw cane sugar, mostly tariff-paid from Brazil and Australia, but also tariff-free under EU rules, though "this has to come from low-income countries like Mauritius and Belize that have higher production costs than Brazil or Australia."* A similar regime had helped protect small West Indian banana producers, until the EU was forced by the WTO to open up to the big commercial producers in the 'banana republics'. I know that you are probably reluctant to see anything beneficial in the CAP, and for people like JiB it will be forever a hate-object, but at heart a system which boosts local production, while at the same time allowing preferential access for small, developing countries at the expense of vast agri-corporations, is surely in tune with the times - and with what I take to be your view that more should be done to promote growth, development and employment opportunities in those countries from which "flight from economic disadvantage" is occurring. * That quote is from a 2020 investigation which is worth a read, not least for the point about pesticide use in Australian/Brazilian cane growing: unearthed.greenpeace.org/2020/08/08/brexit-sugar-cane-tate-lyle-sweetheart-conservative/ |
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Post by graham on Mar 28, 2023 11:43:12 GMT
Labour should renationalise the business. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Mar 28, 2023 11:45:13 GMT
This is a lot closer than I'd thought it would be, but the large majority who think it won't work doesn't surprise me
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2023 11:49:20 GMT
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steve
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Post by steve on Mar 28, 2023 11:53:58 GMT
Entirely agree with the NEC Labour's chances at the next election would be significantly diminished if Corbyn was allowed to stand.
I appreciate that there are people on the left of the party that will be upset by his exclusion but in general these are the same people who would put doctrinal purity above electability.
Not being a complete wombat I very much doubt we are likely to see a liberal democrat government after the next election and on the principle of by far the lesser of two evils clearly a Labour led government would be a significant improvement on the corrupt charlatans currently in power.
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Post by alec on Mar 28, 2023 12:07:38 GMT
Danny - have answered you on the covid thread. In would ask again that if you want to respond to one on my signposts, or discuss covid, do it on the covid thread. jimjam & @others - apologies. My original post was actually about the dismantling of public health initiatives, rather than covid. Danny responded as he does, and I should have then taken it across to the covid thread, so please accept my apologies. I would say though that there are plenty of ongoing topics that I find off putting and boring, but I haven't lost the ability to scroll.
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steve
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Post by steve on Mar 28, 2023 12:09:14 GMT
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Mar 28, 2023 12:14:15 GMT
I'm not ignoring the challenges but IF the developed World can hit 'net zero' then no reason why less developing countries can't. A lot of the deforestation and ecosystem issues in many emerging countries are due to the demand from the West (eg ethanol production). I don't even have grandkids yet but hopefully one day. IMO the World they live in will be better than the one my grandparents lived in, possibly better than the one we live in (eg mass automation, not mass immigration, is IMO the answer to 'ageing' populations). Who knows but the 'Socialist Utopia' of a good education until 18-21, then perhaps a 30hr* week for maybe 40years, followed by a long retirement on a decent pension becomes the 'norm' - not just in UK but most of the World. Whilst we agree on the challenges then I'm cautiously optimistic myself - although I don't under estimate the challenges. * I did many years at 3x that rate so decided I could do less than 40yrs  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2023 12:24:51 GMT
Colin: "From Africa for the reasons given in the article I linked to-"economic growth and opportunities are not keeping pace with population growth.". ie flight from economic disadvantage."This ties in a bit with my earlier post about the post-brexit change to the UK's sugar import regime. Under the EU, imports of raw cane sugar were subject to tariffs, which led in time to most UK sugar consumption coming from beet rather than cane (and the growth of beet-based Associated British Sugar at the expense of cane refiner Tate and Lyle). Happy days for Bury St Edmunds! T&L continued importing raw cane sugar, mostly tariff-paid from Brazil and Australia, but also tariff-free under EU rules, though "this has to come from low-income countries like Mauritius and Belize that have higher production costs than Brazil or Australia."* A similar regime had helped protect small West Indian banana producers, until the EU was forced by the WTO to open up to the big commercial producers in the 'banana republics'. I know that you are probably reluctant to see anything beneficial in the CAP, and for people like JiB it will be forever a hate-object, but at heart a system which boosts local production, while at the same time allowing preferential access for small, developing countries at the expense of vast agri-corporations, is surely in tune with the times - and with what I take to be your view that more should be done to promote growth, development and employment opportunities in those countries from which "flight from economic disadvantage" is occurring. * That quote is from a 2020 investigation which is worth a read, not least for the point about pesticide use in Australian/Brazilian cane growing: unearthed.greenpeace.org/2020/08/08/brexit-sugar-cane-tate-lyle-sweetheart-conservative/Thanks It seems to be a very complicated issue:- www.intereconomics.eu/contents/year/2021/number/5/article/some-effects-of-eu-sugar-reforms-on-development-in-africa.html#:~:text=The%20regular%20tariff%20for%20white,lower%20sugar%20prices%20in%20Europe. and given that about 80% of the world's sugar is produced from cane grown in tropical and subtropical climates whilst 20% comes from sugar beets, which are grown mostly in the temperate zones of the Northern Hemisphere there is clearly an inbuilt clash of economic interests. The more I read on it the more complex it gets ! I am left wondering why the producers of 80% of the raw ingredient -being mostly developing countries -aren't encouraged by global economic lawmakers to retain value added by refining their own product ,and stop importing white sugar, whilst producers of the 20% of the raw ingredient aren't encouraged to import more refined sugar and produce less beet. ! The T&L Brexit lobbying looks bad. Don't like it. |
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Mar 28, 2023 12:24:55 GMT
YG posted their latest update y'day and R&W tweeting on the polling on Rishi's 5 priorities today. Note how low the bar of expectations is set:
eg1 halving inflation is almost a certainty yet only 24%, net -29% think Rishi will hit that priority
eg2 cutting NHS waiting lists (from a very high level) a near certainty yet only 19%, net -43% think Rishi will achieve that
Some of the other ones will be more tricky but on something like "Stop(ping)" small boats then seeing a reduction and laws/arrangements in place that give expectation of further reductions might be enough for some CON'19 migrants to DK/RUK/LAB to 'return home' to CON VI.
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Mar 28, 2023 12:29:34 GMT
... I am left wondering why the producers of 80% of the raw ingredient -being mostly developing countries -aren't encouraged by global economic lawmakers to retain value added by refining their own product ,and stop importing white sugar, whilst producers of the 20% of the raw ingredient aren't encouraged to import more refined sugar and produce less beet. ! ... Indeed. Didn't 'someone' beet themselves up about this issue before? Although we (the West) ought to reduce our sugar consumption, although unlikely to below 20%, if people want to go down the obesity tangent on the main thread again. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Mar 28, 2023 12:42:18 GMT
Breakdown of age and party of MPs leaving, not only are many more tories leaving they are also significantly younger
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Post by somerjohn on Mar 28, 2023 12:47:38 GMT
Colin: "I am left wondering why the producers of 80% of the raw ingredient -being mostly developing countries -aren't encouraged by global economic lawmakers to retain value added by refining their own product ,and stop importing white sugar, whilst producers of the 20% of the raw ingredient aren't encouraged to import more refined sugar and produce less beet. !"
I agree it's complicated.
As to your question about why 'global economic lawmakers' don't encourage small cane producers to do their own refining, I think there are two answers. One is to look at where power lies amongst those global lawmakers: it's where the big refiners operate. The second is free market forces and economies of scale. The UK essentially supports two huge refiners: one for cane, one for beet. A refinery in, say, Malawi will be hopelessly uneconomic by comparison, unless protected by huge tariffs. Which leads to corruption, smuggling and elevated prices. And if the EU (or UK) lets in refined sugar from Australia, Brazil etc then the domestic industry suffers and the small producers too (because no way are Brazil and Australia going to buy cane from the small producers).
I think the answer is for huge economic actors, with an enlightened awareness of where their self-interest lies, to develop policies supporting third-world development. Which is why I tend to look to the EU in matters like this. But perhaps the UK can take a lead .... as with sugar (not).
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