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Post by mercian on Sept 2, 2022 21:17:46 GMT
Who said anything about Truss or the Tories? I said earlier that I consider the Tories to be centrist, and as you say turning socialist lately. No, I envisage a right-wing revolution comprising mainly people from my generation who (with a few exceptions on here) are the only sensible people left. We'd need help from a few young bovver boys to do the actual running about, but pencil me in for the role of Corporal Jones. I think you'll find that "Dad's Army" were fighting against Fascism. You may prefer that wonderful actor Philip Madoc's U-Boat commander. It seems to be very easy to throw the word Fascism around as a general term of abuse to a political opponent without any reasoning. Let's say that my Dad's Army would be fighting the Fascism of the left. How does that lie with you? |
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Post by mercian on Sept 2, 2022 21:19:28 GMT
Does that mean you're rootin' for Putin? Eh ? It was just that having gas back would obviously be quite popular, and that phrase popped into my head because it rhymed. No offence intended. Just a little quip. |
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Post by RAF on Sept 2, 2022 21:21:32 GMT
Rishi's odds have shortened to 33/2. Liz is 1/20.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 21:22:16 GMT
It was just that having gas back would obviously be quite popular, and that phrase popped into my head because it rhymed. No offence intended. Just a little quip. Transparent trolling |
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,614
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Post by pjw1961 on Sept 2, 2022 21:33:24 GMT
I think you'll find that "Dad's Army" were fighting against Fascism. You may prefer that wonderful actor Philip Madoc's U-Boat commander. It seems to be very easy to throw the word Fascism around as a general term of abuse to a political opponent without any reasoning. Let's say that my Dad's Army would be fighting the Fascism of the left. How does that lie with you? You described Truss and the current version of the Tories as "centrist" or indeed "socialist" and called for "a right-wing revolution" with "help from a few young bovver boys". Sounds mighty like Fascism to me. |
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Post by mercian on Sept 2, 2022 21:33:34 GMT
nickpYou've got a very weird attitude.
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Post by RAF on Sept 2, 2022 21:36:28 GMT
nickpYou've got a very weird attitude. In fairness Mercian, your comment was unacceptable. |
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Post by robbiealive on Sept 2, 2022 21:46:29 GMT
Does FFS mean Fresh Fruit Salad. |
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Post by robbiealive on Sept 2, 2022 21:51:38 GMT
Well, the point of the polling is that many of Corbyn’s policies weren’t so leftist, they are more centrist, and more so now. Only 8 percent want to keep utilities in private hands, and you might be in that 8%. And another issue with waiting to the last minute for policies is that it’s useful to be able to plan for what’s coming instead of being ambushed. And it seems to be ok to examine Tory policies. Starmer does have some policies, I’ve posted about a few, which aroused very little interest. Get more interest posting stuff from the Telegraph. When you have finished the first draft of Labour's 2024 manifesto send it to me. I have an international reputation for my ability to improve such things. |
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Post by mandolinist on Sept 2, 2022 21:59:05 GMT
It all seems a little. . .fractious on here tonight, like the year six last week of the school year. All of us waiting for the result of an election few if any have had any part in.
Just for a different take on the whole fin-de-siecle vibe, who will get a peerage, is their any chance Sunak will win, who will be in the new cabinet...?
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Post by crossbat11 on Sept 2, 2022 22:06:00 GMT
Well, the point of the polling is that many of Corbyn’s policies weren’t so leftist, they are more centrist, and more so now. Only 8 percent want to keep utilities in private hands, and you might be in that 8%. And another issue with waiting to the last minute for policies is that it’s useful to be able to plan for what’s coming instead of being ambushed. And it seems to be ok to examine Tory policies. Starmer does have some policies, I’ve posted about a few, which aroused very little interest. Get more interest posting stuff from the Telegraph. When you have finished the first draft of Labour's 2024 manifesto send it to me. I have an international reputation for my ability to improve such things. A rallying cry for Non-Activistas and Abstainers. It will be entitled "There are no Answers, only Questions." |
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Post by crossbat11 on Sept 2, 2022 22:10:20 GMT
Does FFS mean Fresh Fruit Salad. Few Find Solace. On here, anyway. |
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Post by robbiealive on Sept 2, 2022 22:18:46 GMT
When you have finished the first draft of Labour's 2024 manifesto send it to me. I have an international reputation for my ability to improve such things. A rallying cry for Non-Activistas and Abstainers. It will be entitled "There are no Answers, only Questions." Ha ha. There are certain poltical cliches that grate like a knife scraping a plate. "Going forward ..." "Let me be clear about this ..." "Up & down the country" "Hard-working families ..." "My comment was misrepresented aka My remarks have been taken out of context. How about Sideways with Starmer! |
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,614
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Post by pjw1961 on Sept 2, 2022 22:23:08 GMT
How about Sideways with Starmer!Still preferable to Backwards with Truss! |
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Post by mercian on Sept 2, 2022 22:23:49 GMT
It seems to be very easy to throw the word Fascism around as a general term of abuse to a political opponent without any reasoning. Let's say that my Dad's Army would be fighting the Fascism of the left. How does that lie with you? You described Truss and the current version of the Tories as "centrist" or indeed "socialist" and called for "a right-wing revolution" with "help from a few young bovver boys". Sounds mighty like Fascism to me. Oh for goodness sake. The original comment was in response to @crofty who said I'd be ok 'come the revolution' (implying a left-wing revolution because that's the usual context) because of some comment I'd made. I then made a humorous response to that, saying that of course I'd be ok because I'd be manning the barricades in the right-wing revolution, and casting myself as Corporal Jones! How much humour-signalling do you guys need? @crofty seems to have had a similar problem tonight. RAF see comment above. |
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Sept 2, 2022 22:25:41 GMT
Well, the point of the polling is that many of Corbyn’s policies weren’t so leftist, they are more centrist, and more so now. Only 8 percent want to keep utilities in private hands, and you might be in that 8%. And another issue with waiting to the last minute for policies is that it’s useful to be able to plan for what’s coming instead of being ambushed. And it seems to be ok to examine Tory policies. Starmer does have some policies, I’ve posted about a few, which aroused very little interest. Get more interest posting stuff from the Telegraph. When you have finished the first draft of Labour's 2024 manifesto send it to me. I have an international reputation for my ability to improve such things. Well maybe if it needs to be in text speak |
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Sept 2, 2022 22:30:14 GMT
When you have finished the first draft of Labour's 2024 manifesto send it to me. I have an international reputation for my ability to improve such things. It will be entitled "There are no Answers, only Questions." Is that what you said on the doorstep “campaigning” for Corbyn? |
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Post by mercian on Sept 2, 2022 22:30:26 GMT
It all seems a little. . .fractious on here tonight, like the year six last week of the school year. All of us waiting for the result of an election few if any have had any part in. Just for a different take on the whole fin-de-siecle vibe, who will get a peerage, is their any chance Sunak will win, who will be in the new cabinet...? Thank you for a diversion from the fractiousness. Priti Patel for a peerage even though she's achieved virtually nothing despite talking a good game. She ticks a couple of diversity boxes. No chance for Sunak. Most votes were in weeks or months?, years? ago. New cabinet (Please Note to Humourless Persons This Is Tongue in Cheek!) Rees-Mogg, Redford, Mark Francois, Lord Hague, Lord Frost etc. Actually, some of those probably will be in. |
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Post by RAF on Sept 2, 2022 22:35:31 GMT
You described Truss and the current version of the Tories as "centrist" or indeed "socialist" and called for "a right-wing revolution" with "help from a few young bovver boys". Sounds mighty like Fascism to me. Oh for goodness sake. The original comment was in response to @crofty who said I'd be ok 'come the revolution' (implying a left-wing revolution because that's the usual context) because of some comment I'd made. I then made a humorous response to that, saying that of course I'd be ok because I'd be manning the barricades in the right-wing revolution, and casting myself as Corporal Jones! How much humour-signalling do you guys need? @crofty seems to have had a similar problem tonight. RAF see comment above. I was referring to your comment to colin. Never mind anyway. |
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Post by mercian on Sept 2, 2022 22:39:09 GMT
RAFGood grief. Have you people never had a laugh?
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Post by crossbat11 on Sept 2, 2022 22:41:24 GMT
There are more questions than answers
Pictures in my mind that will not show
There are more questions than answers
And the more I find out the less I know
Yeah, the more I find out the less I know
I've asked the question time and time again
Why is there so little love among men
But what is life, how do we live
What should we take and how much should we give
Oh, there are more questions than answers
Pictures in my mind that will not show
There are more questions than answers
And the more I find out the less I know
Yeah, the more I find out the less I know
Oh, yeah
Oh, what is life, how do we live
Oh, what should we take and how much should we give
There are more questions than answers
They're just pictures in my mind that will not show
There are more questions than answers
And the more I find out the less I know
Yeah, the more I find out the less I know
(It never saw the light of day, but this was the draft of Corbyn's victory speech had he won in 2019)
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Sept 2, 2022 22:46:47 GMT
There are more questions than answers
Pictures in my mind that will not show
There are more questions than answers
And the more I find out the less I know
Yeah, the more I find out the less I know
I've asked the question time and time again
Why is there so little love among men
But what is life, how do we live
What should we take and how much should we give
Oh, there are more questions than answers
Pictures in my mind that will not show
There are more questions than answers
And the more I find out the less I know
Yeah, the more I find out the less I know
Oh, yeah
Oh, what is life, how do we live
Oh, what should we take and how much should we give
There are more questions than answers
They're just pictures in my mind that will not show
There are more questions than answers
And the more I find out the less I know
Yeah, the more I find out the less I know(It never saw the light of day, but this was the draft of Corbyn's victory speech had he won in 2019) and there you were a few posts ago talking about “peace”  |
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Sept 2, 2022 22:59:27 GMT
There’s a thing. If we get colonies on Mars, rotating habitats etc., will the birth rate increase? anyways, you may have seen this already but thought I’d post it anyway: an historic moment in astronomy - the first direct image of a planet beyond the solar system. A hot gas giant, so unlikely to harbour life, but seems like they might be able to analyse atmospheres, so if they maybe find a rocky world in the habitable zone with a signature of life - e.g. oxygen in the atmosphere… Yep, saw that. Thanks. I've been the watching the ongoing testing on Booster 7, now with its first multi-engine ignition:
No huge bang this time, which is encouraging.
As to population, I've been reading Tomorrow's People: The Future of Humanity in Ten Numbers, a fascinating exploration into what our possible future as a planet is. Did you know there are over one hundred cities in China that have a population of more than one million? Could you name them? Shanghai, Beijing, Nanjing, ... Wuhan ... Er ... Hong Kong? I'll stop there, only 95 more to go!!!
If we wanted to increase the birth rate, maybe, just maybe, we could make having a family something to be celebrated. I feel sorry for single mothers. Their relationship has fallen apart, they are left to bring up the kids; then they are told to go to work, because we, as a country, won't subsidise them. Oh, and make sure they don't become delinquent. Being a mother is not even considered a job!! You what? You want help? This is Ingerland and we don't dish out BENEFITS. But pensioners get the triple lock -- woo hoo![1]
'Tell your kid to pick up his ball and take it somewhere else, otherwise I'll get them to slap an ASBO on him.'
[1] Get your dirty socialist hands off my house. That's for my kids. (I get my insensitive pensioner views by listening to my wife -- I maybe wrong.)
Yes, I thought you had probably seen it. I read somewhere that they might be able to check the atmosphere which surprised me, though haven’t got around to checking… they’re talking about a Super Hubble designed to check atmospheres. Regarding the cities, I got a couple more, Shenzhen etc., but most escaped me. Thanks for the book recommend though. Regarding single parents, that’s one of the situations where the UBI thing Nick P was in about earlier might be useful |
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Post by ptarmigan on Sept 2, 2022 23:34:12 GMT
fullfact.org/economy/labour-inequality-1997-2010/That's actually pretty good imo and has to be seen in the context of what is realistic in a socially conservative country which has a dominant right of centre party which is usually in Govmt. If you wish to emphasis the fact that inequality still increases and that is not a good enough record.....show us your plan @carefrew; show us how a more equal society is electorally possible in Britain? Apologies in advance for the ramble... I think my inclination with this is to approach it from a slightly different perspective and to question the idea that the UK is a socially conservative country, because I'm not fully convinced it is especially, and I think this idea perhaps inhibits LOC parties from being bolder. I do think many - maybe most - people are instinctively small c conservatives, but I think this is true wherever you go and I don't really see that our values are very far removed from a lot of countries which happily elect centre left and socially democratic governments. You do have quite a divergence of opinion in the UK based on age (young/old) and geography (rural/urban) but this is also not unusual. And whereas there are some issues such as crime and immigration where recent governments have tended to govern to the left of public opinion, there are other examples where UK governments have tended to govern to the right. I think you can point (as carfrew has) to issues such as renationalisation and the popularity of a lot of the individual policies in the last Labour manifesto as evidence that there is something of an appetite for more redistributive and egalitarian policies in this country. I think what we do have in the UK is a couple of major barriers to a more progressive politics. The first is that the UK media landscape is very right wing and media outlets have the ability to distort and misrepresent issues. The second is that we have an outdated and unrepresentative electoral system which in no way reflects how the country actually votes. So, for example, the fact we have a right wing Tory government with a large majority would, at first sight, seem to indicate that the public are particularly enthusiastic about their brand of conservatism, but the fact that they garnered 40%-odd of the vote and that this vote was heavily concentrated in a particular demographic (over-65s) tells a slightly different story. In essence, I think the starting position should be that there is an audience for more progressive politics, whilst recognising there are some very significant, though not totally insurmountable obstacles, when it comes to selling LOC policies. As much as I don't really pretend to have all the answers, I do think there are a few things that those advocating a more left wing agenda can do. One of the more straightforward things, I think, is to sharpen up on the messaging front. I think Labour can learn some lessons from 2019 here where the continued policy announcements came across as rather jumbled and incoherent. The presentational aspect is hugely important in politics. They shouldn't have been selling their policy programme as radical, but as common sense solutions to real issues that people face and should have had a grand theme to build around, rather than scattershot ideas. I think there are so many ways in which it's possible to improve engagement with LOC politics. Whilst I understand the idea of it always being necessary to appeal to the centre ground, one of the potential pitfalls is that that ground is forever shifting - if the Labour Party is always on the search for the mythical centre there's a risk that they end up looking out of touch when it comes to addressing people's problems (although of course this might not necessarily matter if the Tories look even more away with the fairies!) |
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Post by mercian on Sept 2, 2022 23:41:05 GMT
ptarmigan"...the fact we have a right wing Tory government..." I know that this is what is commonly said, but I can't remember any government of whatever stripe giving money away to every household, which is what is happening now. I might be misunderstanding, but to me that is a very left-wing measure.
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Post by RAF on Sept 2, 2022 23:43:27 GMT
There are more questions than answers
Pictures in my mind that will not show
There are more questions than answers
And the more I find out the less I know
Yeah, the more I find out the less I know
I've asked the question time and time again
Why is there so little love among men
But what is life, how do we live
What should we take and how much should we give
Oh, there are more questions than answers
Pictures in my mind that will not show
There are more questions than answers
And the more I find out the less I know
Yeah, the more I find out the less I know
Oh, yeah
Oh, what is life, how do we live
Oh, what should we take and how much should we give
There are more questions than answers
They're just pictures in my mind that will not show
There are more questions than answers
And the more I find out the less I know
Yeah, the more I find out the less I know(It never saw the light of day, but this was the draft of Corbyn's victory speech had he won in 2019) I'm sure this was the backing track on the Mystery Guest round on A Question of Sport in the 80s? |
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Post by ptarmigan on Sept 2, 2022 23:50:22 GMT
Would be nice, also think with tactical voting the lib-dems would do substantially better with a few more for Labour also This isn't an original observation, as I know people questioned it the last time around, but I'm slightly baffled why you would produce modelling like this without trying to factor in tactical voting. It's one thing if you're producing a relatively crude guide, but if you're going to the trouble of doing constituency level projections then it seems a bit daft. If you look at Lib Dem target seats it has them staying more or less static while Labour shoot up. Everyone knows this isn't how things will pan out so why not try to reflect that? It seems a bit odd to me. Cheering results though... |
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Post by ptarmigan on Sept 2, 2022 23:58:10 GMT
ptarmigan "...the fact we have a right wing Tory government..." I know that this is what is commonly said, but I can't remember any government of whatever stripe giving money away to every household, which is what is happening now. I might be misunderstanding, but to me that is a very left-wing measure. True, but desperate times call for desperate measures! These recent interventions are indicative of a failure of free market capitalism rather than a damascene conversion to left wing economics. |
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Post by mercian on Sept 3, 2022 0:08:57 GMT
ptarmigan Are you saying that these times are more desperate than the banking crisis of 2007, or the exit from the ERM in 1992(?) or the hyperinflation of the late '70s, or WWII? I'm not talking about philosophy, just practicalities. Whether tory instincts have changed or not is irrelevant. The fact is that handing out subsidies to every household is a very left-wing measure IMO. Not that I'm not grateful, but if it means my descendants will be saddled with massive government debt, maybe not such a good idea?
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Post by graham on Sept 3, 2022 1:07:02 GMT
Would be nice, also think with tactical voting the lib-dems would do substantially better with a few more for Labour also This isn't an original observation, as I know people questioned it the last time around, but I'm slightly baffled why you would produce modelling like this without trying to factor in tactical voting. It's one thing if you're producing a relatively crude guide, but if you're going to the trouble of doing constituency level projections then it seems a bit daft. If you look at Lib Dem target seats it has them staying more or less static while Labour shoot up. Everyone knows this isn't how things will pan out so why not try to reflect that? It seems a bit odd to me. Cheering results though... Having looked at the projections in detail it strikes me that Labour is probably being understated in both Scotland and Wales with some results forecast for England appearing somewhat optimistic. |
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