domjg
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Post by domjg on Sept 1, 2022 10:49:44 GMT
Quite so and I advise all Starmer sceptics out there to get your betrayals in early. Preferably before the election. I don't get all this Aled Jones betrayal stuff anyway. Sure, Starmer pulled the Left's pants down, but that's an entirely sensible, maybe essential, thing to do if you want to be a successful Labour leader. You've got a much better chance of winning elections too by running political rings around the dafter element of Labour's left. It's all the fun of the fair. If you're not a traitor you won't get anywhere with voters as a Labour leader. A badge of honour, I'd say. Voters don't normally bother themselves with all that silliness. Betrayal is ridiculous hyperbole anyway. As all politicians do, he got a bit economical with the truth, that's all. He conned a section of the party's membership to get elected as leader and has subsequently moved the party back towards electoral winning centre ground. Smart move. I think he's on his way to rid us of Toryism for a bit. That'll do for me. I think he'll make a decent PM leading a social democratic broadly centrist Labour government. Again, that'll do for me. I have low expectations, but realistic ones I think. With a bit of luck, along with the Lib Dems, he'll usher in electoral and constitutional reform and we can get away with all this betrayal tripe for good. People can then vote for what they truly believe in. Socialists for a Socialist Party, social democrats/liberals for a Social Democratic party etc etc. Politics is the art of the possible and a cat's cradle of compromises and fudges. Sleight of hand too and, yes, letting a lot of people down. I look for a politician who can navigate this morass and who might edge the country my sort of way. Starmer seems the nearest to delivering those rather impoverished objectives for me so he gets my support. The boy could do some good, as we say in footballing circles. I offer no great moral case for my politics at all. Expediency is the guiding light. What's achievable in a largely conservative country that is resistant, maybe hostile, to great change. Marshal the sensible majority and get into power for a bit of gradualist change. I think it's the only game in town in British politics. Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good. Absolutely. I find it extraordinary that what you've just expressed so clearly needs to be pointed out here again and again. Without power you can have all the ideologically 'sound' wishes you like. Won't do anyone any good though.
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steve
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Post by steve on Sept 1, 2022 10:58:46 GMT
colin They maybe called voters but anyone who thinks Nadine Dorries,Jacob Rees Mogg ,Kier Starmer and Nicola Sturgeon are " all the same" are bonkers.
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Post by alec on Sept 1, 2022 11:01:40 GMT
crossbat11 and others; on 'betrayal' on the left, my view is quite simple. Under FPTP electoral system, our effective choice is limited. That's my starting point. Then, I look at my views and how they compare with the majority, which I view as a classic normal distribution bell curve, with a peak around the centre and long tails either sides as you get more extreme left and right. I'm quite extreme left, and I have learned to accept that 90% or so of the population lie towards my right on that bell curve. In a functioning democracy, I will therefore always be disappointed. Only if democracy is usurped will I get most of what I want. I see the point to both try to move the centre of that distribution a little my way, if we can, and then to achieve governments on the left side of that distribution. There is no point arguing about betrayal if you are on the left, because that is the logical position that is bound to happen in a democracy. So I just get along with trying the get the best government that circumstances allow. That wasn't Corbyn, but it might be Starmer.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2022 11:04:05 GMT
Quite so and I advise all Starmer sceptics out there to get your betrayals in early. Preferably before the election. ....... Absolutely. I find it extraordinary that what you've just expressed so clearly needs to be pointed out here again and again. Without power you can have all the ideologically 'sound' wishes you like. Won't do anyone any good though.Nigel Farage & UKIP might suggest otherwise
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alurqa
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Post by alurqa on Sept 1, 2022 11:13:05 GMT
This is still the most telling demographic I've seen - voting in 2017 General Election by work status. Couldn't find same demographic for 2019. Tories given to us by the retired, no other work status group voted for them. Think about that! Work status Con Lab Lib Dem SNP UKIP Green Plaid Others Full-time 39 45 8 4 2 2 0 1 Part-time 40 44 8 3 2 2 0 1 Student 19 64 10 4 1 2 0 1 Retired 63 24 7 3 2 1 0 1 Unemployed 28 54 6 4 4 2 1 1 Not working 36 48 6 4 3 1 0 1 Other 30 55 6 4 2 2 0 1 Work status | Con | Lab | Lib Dem | SNP | UKIP | Green | Plaid | Others | Full-time | 39 | 45 | 8 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 1 | Part-time | 40 | 44 | 8 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 1 | Student | 19 | 64 | 10 | 4 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 1 | Retired | 63 | 24 | 7 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 1 | Unemployed | 28 | 54 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 2 | 1 | 1 | Not working | 36 | 48 | 6 | 4 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 1 | Other | 30 | 55 | 6 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 1 |
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Post by robbiealive on Sept 1, 2022 11:18:26 GMT
I shouldn't take too much notice of the "all politicians are the same" stuff. It's the lowest form of political analysis, usually espoused by people randomly interviewed in the street in those weird TV forays to test public opinion in the flesh. You need to leave your little bubble of lefty pomposity and have a look at some polls on trust in politicians-all of them . Those people on the street are called voters. copy and paste this into Google chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2022-08/ipsos-trust-in-politicians-poll-august-2022.pdf That link won't run. You do have an annoying habit of citing links but saying nothing about them. I take it that it's the Ipsos one quoted more helpfully by Shevii? it shows: (a) that 19% of Labour voters don't trust starmer & 75% trust him all, half, or some of the time. Pretty decent result among his own supporters. (b) That 29%, 36%, 46% of Tory voters don't trust respectively Truss, Sunak & Johnson. It's the Tory party that has a problem with trust with its own bl--dy supporters. I wonder why? (c) Among voters in general, in August '22, 33% don't trust Starmer, which, bearing (a) in mind, suggests a not particularly high level of general distrust of him. The same poll reveals that 45% of general voters don't trust Sunak/Truss & a whopping 61% Johnson. (d) Distrust levels of leading politicians have gone up sharply in the last two years: I WONDER WHY? I venture some of the increased distrust of Starmer, tho still at lower levels than Tories, might reflect the fact that he is seen as more likely to gain power & is therefore scrutinised more carefully. You have become disillusioned by the party you support & have voted for; are now thrashing about like an injured whale [just re-reading Moby Dick] saying a curse on all yr houses. Because you are disillusioned we all have to be. I'm not. We more perceptive types were disillusioned with Johnson from Day 1, & are quite unsurprised by the awful damage he has done to the business & perception of politics in 3 years. He is & always was a charlatan. "These people on the street are called voters". Who chose them? Proof they do vote? & I've heard of unrepresentative samples but. .The practice of invoking vox pop by that method is ludicrous. It'sl like those bl--ody fone ins I have to endure when I get my hair cut. I have edited out my counter-personal-insults. You're not a bad old thing raelly: just mired ina Brexit/Tory mess of yr own making.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Sept 1, 2022 11:19:24 GMT
Absolutely. I find it extraordinary that what you've just expressed so clearly needs to be pointed out here again and again. Without power you can have all the ideologically 'sound' wishes you like. Won't do anyone any good though.Nigel Farage & UKIP might suggest otherwise That's because Ukip were a pressure group pressurising the Tories and won no representation themselves. What other social democratic party that wins the actual seats would Labour be putting pressure on?
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Post by alec on Sept 1, 2022 11:26:20 GMT
I see some getting into the poetry thing again.
Poetry has the power, To uplift and emote on, But sadly, it's not the power, That will keep the lights on.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Sept 1, 2022 11:32:15 GMT
Ah, the chastising of the left for standing up for what it believes in continues. Don't get me wrong, I'm a give me Labour over any of the other parties type of gal, but I do sympathise with others who argue what's the point of voting Labour if they aren't going to deliver the policies they think will make their life different to what it would be under the Tories. And lets face it, Labour's past record in govt in terms of delivering for sections of its base is debatable, which is exactly why many once trad Labour voters have ceased supporting the party. Currently more interventionist economic and pro-Union/workers positions are popular with the electorate as whole, so the left has a point with challenging Labour's seeming timidity in regards to them.
However, in terms of electoral strategy, Starmer's approach is probably sound. Labour does need to be seen to be reliable/sensible on the economy. Yes the electorate may support more gvt spending/intervention, but they will only hand over the reigns of gvt to a party they trust on the economy. Also, realistically Starmer's path to No10 involves gaining seats in Scotland. Back in '17 that half dozen or so seats they won had wafer thin majorities and they probably relied upon some unionist tac voting. Corbyn's left position did not cut through with a supposedly left leaning electorate in Scotland (largely due to the fact that many on the left are fully committed to Indy now and will vote SNP regardless) so if Labour are going to win more sets in a GE in Scotland, it will have to rely on LD/Tory Unionist tac votes. So obvs, a more centrist position facilitates this. This may be at the expense of reducing the size of Labour's massive majority in metropolitan areas where it will win anywhere, but with FPTP it makes tactical sense.
You have to be in power to do anything - for me as long as the timidity does not overly dictate policy when in government, the current approach is probably a price worth paying.
(ps I reserve the right to feel 'betrayed' etc if Labour gets into power and breaks my heart.) " will make their life different to what it would be under the Tories" - This is what i don't get, an apparent failure to appreciate the level of danger (and damage already done) the current, populist manifestation of the Tories represent not just to the material well being of the nation and it's inhabitants but also to political culture, civic discourse and the rule of law itself. To me it's clear that if we don't remove them soon by any means possible we could pass a point of no return beyond which we may encounter scenarios I don't even want to think about. This is an emergency situation and literally any alternative would improve all our lives at this point and the standing of the country in Europe and internationally. It's a stand up and be counted moment, not time to be haggling over policy details. If in power in a couple of years time Labour will in any case have no choice but to embrace imaginative policy ideas as the circumstances will demand no less. Before that though a laser like focus on getting these Tories out of power is needed. Once that's done we can focus on trying to keep them there for a very long time until they either implode under their internal contradictions (hopeful scenario) or completely reform themselves. As for New Labour. a) Reduction in child poverty. a) Surestart. c) Years spent at least looking like a modern, forward looking European democracy. I'd take them for those points alone.
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Post by robbiealive on Sept 1, 2022 11:50:23 GMT
carfrew/nickp The other factor here is differential turnout and the tendency for the young not to vote. The unemployed too, many of whom, like the young, may not even be on the electoral roll. I suspect the estimated six million or so adults unregistered to vote are disproportionately in younger, part time and unemployed demographic and occupational categories. For example, the 2017 youthquake was largely a myth. Turnout amongst the young remained low and desultory although those who did vote voted in large numbers for Labour. Turnout and registration levels are the obstacles Labour have to overcome if they are to convert sentiment into electoral force and impact. www.britishelectionstudy.com/bes-impact/the-myth-of-the-2017-youthquake-election/#.YxBfPezTVPwYes, it would be handy to increase the youth turnout. IIRC it went up in 2017, but still some way below the average turnout? You will forgive me for finding it bizarre that someone like you who does not vote is anxious that other (young) people should do so. What is the exact postal code for Mount Olympus. The younger age groups more or less voted in the same, but not the exact, proportions as the old until the 1970s. The divergence in this respect between young & old is now pretty ancient. Data for the pattern of voting by the old does not go back beyond '74. It reveals that the old were more likely to vote Tory than other age groups from '79, tho of course the pattern was disturbed when Labour won elections. The tendency for the old to vote Tory SO disproportionately set in fairly recently. The big leap occurred in 2015 & has persisted. I suspect much of this has to do with Brexit, which rallied the 65+ vote to the Tories & UKIP. So, many older voters supported Farage & after the EU REF they simply switched to the Tories. & stayed there. As Batty & others have said, it's a gerontocracy which has been quite lavishly rewarded for its loyalty. It is also noticeable that while women are rather more likely to vote Labour, women 65+ are as doggedly supportive of the Tories as their male peers. The split in voting cuts across gender & age.
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Sept 1, 2022 11:52:48 GMT
Hi crossbat11 Although I made the betrayal ps in joking manner, I do feel your position is in danger of allowing politicians off the hook in terms of accountability and is in part pandering to the ultra-cynical view of politics which is helping to undermine faith in politicians and our democratic process. And you can't have your cake and eat it - criticising the likes of Johnson for their disingenuousness but then saying its totally ok for Starmer to say one thing to get elected and then do the exact opposite.
Voters have a right to expect politicians to keep to their commitments, and withdraw their support if the politician/party breaks those promises or acts contrary to them (as many 2010 LD VI did). Yes circumstances may change requiring a shift in policy, but it is beholden of the politician to explain why and at the discretion of the voter to decide if it is justified and react accordingly. Voters can justifiably feel betrayed.
The conservative party, is and always will be the party of established power, privilege and wealth, and you expect them to act in a more cynical manner. The Labour Party's whole raison d'etre is around improving the lives of working people / people who need support - if it does not seek to deliver this and just seeks power for the sake of power then why should the likes of me support it?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2022 11:54:05 GMT
That link won't run. You do have an annoying habit of citing links but saying nothing about them. I take it that it's the Ipsos one quoted more helpfully by Shevii? it shows: (a) that 19% of Labour voters don't trust starmer & 75% trust him all, half, or some of the time. Pretty decent result among his own supporters. (b) That 29%, 36%, 46% of Tory voters don't trust respectively Truss, Sunak & Johnson. It's the Tory party that has a problem with trust with its own bl--dy supporters. I wonder why? (c) Among voters in general, in August '22, 33% don't trust Starmer, which, bearing (a) in mind, suggests a not particularly high level of general distrust of him. The same poll reveals that 45% of general voters don't trust Sunak/Truss & a whopping 61% Johnson. (d) Distrust levels of leading politicians have gone up sharply in the last two years: I WONDER WHY? I venture some of the increased distrust of Starmer, tho still at lower levels than Tories, might reflect the fact that he is seen as more likely to gain power & is therefore scrutinised more carefully. You have become disillusioned by the party you support & have voted for; are now thrashing about like an injured whale [just re-reading Moby Dick] saying a curse on all yr houses. Because you are disillusioned we all have to be. I'm not. We more perceptive types were disillusioned with Johnson from Day 1, & are quite unsurprised by the awful damage he has done to the business & perception of politics in 3 years. He is & always was a charlatan. "These people on the street are called voters". Who chose them? Proof they do vote? & I've heard of unrepresentative samples but. .The practice of invoking vox pop by that method is ludicrous. It'sl like those bl--ody fone ins I have to endure when I get my hair cut. I have edited out my counter-personal-insults. You're not a bad old thing raelly: just mired ina Brexit/Tory mess of yr own making. Ah yes-of course. You perceptive giants of the left who thought Corbyn would beat him. What a tour de force-predicting that Johnson would have character flaws. Well colour me unimpressed. So now you don't think polling is credible . What are you doing babbling on a site devoted to following them ? Yes I am unhappy with the Tory Party just now. Well spotted. But it is an unhappiness which would never be alleviated by adopting the self righteous left wing pomposity which pervades your opinions.
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Sept 1, 2022 12:08:02 GMT
Hi domjg This is what i don't get, an apparent failure to appreciate the level of danger (and damage already done) the current, populist manifestation of the Tories represent not just to the material well being of the nation and it's inhabitants but also to political culture, civic discourse and the rule of law itself.Well while such concerns and topics may exercise liberal minded centre-left posters on a site such as this, I don't necessarily think they are at the fore-front of most voters minds apart from in the context of views on trust etc. For most, politics is primarily a bread and butter issue rather than an ideological one.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Sept 1, 2022 12:16:41 GMT
That link won't run. You do have an annoying habit of citing links but saying nothing about them. I take it that it's the Ipsos one quoted more helpfully by Shevii? it shows: (a) that 19% of Labour voters don't trust starmer & 75% trust him all, half, or some of the time. Pretty decent result among his own supporters. (b) That 29%, 36%, 46% of Tory voters don't trust respectively Truss, Sunak & Johnson. It's the Tory party that has a problem with trust with its own bl--dy supporters. I wonder why? (c) Among voters in general, in August '22, 33% don't trust Starmer, which, bearing (a) in mind, suggests a not particularly high level of general distrust of him. The same poll reveals that 45% of general voters don't trust Sunak/Truss & a whopping 61% Johnson. (d) Distrust levels of leading politicians have gone up sharply in the last two years: I WONDER WHY? I venture some of the increased distrust of Starmer, tho still at lower levels than Tories, might reflect the fact that he is seen as more likely to gain power & is therefore scrutinised more carefully. You have become disillusioned by the party you support & have voted for; are now thrashing about like an injured whale [just re-reading Moby Dick] saying a curse on all yr houses. Because you are disillusioned we all have to be. I'm not. We more perceptive types were disillusioned with Johnson from Day 1, & are quite unsurprised by the awful damage he has done to the business & perception of politics in 3 years. He is & always was a charlatan. "These people on the street are called voters". Who chose them? Proof they do vote? & I've heard of unrepresentative samples but. .The practice of invoking vox pop by that method is ludicrous. It'sl like those bl--ody fone ins I have to endure when I get my hair cut. I have edited out my counter-personal-insults. You're not a bad old thing raelly: just mired ina Brexit/Tory mess of yr own making. Ah yes-of course. You perceptive giants of the left who thought Corbyn would beat him. What a tour de force-predicting that Johnson would have character flaws. Well colour me unimpressed. So now you don't think polling is credible . What are you doing babbling on a site devoted to following them ? Yes I am unhappy with the Tory Party just now. Well spotted. But it is an unhappiness which would never be alleviated by adopting the self righteous left wing pomposity which pervades your opinions. Get over yourself Colin. It sounds a little bit like bitterness at you having taken a punt on Johnsonism and it having been totally exposed as the total sham we knew it was.
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Post by ptarmigan on Sept 1, 2022 12:29:49 GMT
Don't worry folks, our departing leader has a genius solution to the energy crisis.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2022 12:57:10 GMT
Basically retired people are electing the Tories nobody much else.
What does that mean, apart from the straightforward bribes like the triple lock, low basic rate tax, no NI etc all of which would be fine if the verdict wasn't essentially austerity for everybody else including those actually working?
It means most polling especially about policy is meaningless unless you are basically polling the retired.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Sept 1, 2022 12:59:06 GMT
So Johnson announces buying a £700 million stake in the most forward of the proposed new generation of nuclear reactors. I presume this is because EDF refused to continue without additional financial partners, and the only people offering to buy Uk nuclear was China. So its either the government pays up front or they wont get built.
If the government believes we need nuclear power for the next 50 years, then it should have been building these stations the moment it came to power 12 years ago. Its unlikely any would have been functioning by now, but they might be within sight of starting. As things stand, they can play no part in the current energy turmoil.
Theres four ways to solve our problems. One is to develop more fossil fuel resources, which apparently everyone except China has agreed not to do. Another is nuclear, which many have gone off since the most recent nuclear disaster in Japan. Every time one of these accidents happens the cost of new nuclear goes up, as designers build in new but expensive safeguards against the last accident. The one which was never meant to be possible already, yet it happened. And thats before we get into the Ukraine situation, where Russia is tacitly threatening to repeat Chernobyl with the reactors it holds there. So the Uk is falling out with Russia, yet wants to build more nuclear on the British Isles. Just takes one decent bomb to cripple a big area of the UK. You think Putin wouldn't? Would we respond in kind by blowing up some Russian nuclear plant, would we actually be able to reach it militarily (Russian planes already practice raids along the channel).
A third is to develop renewables. Wind power is already cheaper than anything else and easy to build quickly. Its disadvantage is what you do if the wind stops, but actually in the Uk it seldom does that, if you site the turbines all over the country and sea. And talking of sea, why arent we going for sea water turbines? Would need government investment...ah.
A fourth is better insulation. Also cracking down on energy wasteful goods. Freed from EU rules, why dont we tighten all our regulations on energy efficiency ratings, to make them much tougher? There's lots of stuff being sold on 'good' ratings which really are way more wasteful than could be. Trouble is, stuff like insulating houses only has a very long term return which is of no interest to many property owners with only short term plans, or renting the property from an owner who would benefit, or renting it to a tenant who would benefit. Thats before we get to insulating shops or factories or general business premises, which have often been exempted from such insulation regulations as exist for dwellings.
So what are we actually doing? We are proposing to develop more fuel from the ground. Like we promised not to. We are proposing more nuclear. Which is way more expensive than renewables, more dangerous than renewables, and is not compatible in operation with renewables. Renewables need to be complimented with some source which can be rapidly switched on and off, for rleatively short term use, and which has minimal costs when not needed. Nuclear is not this. Admittedly, no one seems to be developing energy storage to compliment renewables, though we are nowhere near the stage there is actually enough spare energy being generated from said renewables to form the basis of a storage industry. And the private sector wont budge until that is guaranteed.
In the meanwhile what we ought to do is build more gas storage. Use gas power stations for fill in, not base load. Rely on wind or solar for base load. There is technology to generate gas from spare power. Not ideal but doable.
So why the F is Johnson and co pushing nuclear? Does he have shares? Does he want the UK riddled with these defence nightmares?
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alurqa
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Post by alurqa on Sept 1, 2022 13:11:20 GMT
Cleopatra. Its nicked from Shakespeare's Anthony & Cleo. Mark Antony says ""I am dying, Egypt, dying." to Cleopatra, Queen of Egypt, as he lies dying in her arms. The poem combines what has been described as an"encapsulation of pre-1939 European forebodings?”-the approach of war ; with a sad love token to a wife who abandoned MacNeice for another man. I love its rhythms and words. Says a lot that he's forgotten her bloody name! ;-)
Thanks for the explanation, it makes more sense now!!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2022 13:14:02 GMT
Cleopatra. Its nicked from Shakespeare's Anthony & Cleo. Mark Antony says ""I am dying, Egypt, dying." to Cleopatra, Queen of Egypt, as he lies dying in her arms. The poem combines what has been described as an"encapsulation of pre-1939 European forebodings?”-the approach of war ; with a sad love token to a wife who abandoned MacNeice for another man. I love its rhythms and words. Says a lot that he's forgotten her bloody name! ;-)
Thanks for the explanation, it makes more sense now!!
Yes lots of poetry is more wonderful when you have the "key" - it basically changes the whole meaning
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alurqa
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Post by alurqa on Sept 1, 2022 13:17:46 GMT
You need to leave your little bubble of lefty pomposity and have a look at some polls on trust in politicians-all of them . Those people on the street are called voters. copy and paste this into Google chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2022-08/ipsos-trust-in-politicians-poll-august-2022.pdf That link won't run.
Just remove the crap at the front.
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Post by robbiealive on Sept 1, 2022 13:18:54 GMT
That link won't run. You do have an annoying habit of citing links but saying nothing about them. I take it that it's the Ipsos one quoted more helpfully by Shevii? it shows: (a) that 19% of Labour voters don't trust starmer & 75% trust him all, half, or some of the time. Pretty decent result among his own supporters. (b) That 29%, 36%, 46% of Tory voters don't trust respectively Truss, Sunak & Johnson. It's the Tory party that has a problem with trust with its own bl--dy supporters. I wonder why? (c) Among voters in general, in August '22, 33% don't trust Starmer, which, bearing (a) in mind, suggests a not particularly high level of general distrust of him. The same poll reveals that 45% of general voters don't trust Sunak/Truss & a whopping 61% Johnson. (d) Distrust levels of leading politicians have gone up sharply in the last two years: I WONDER WHY? I venture some of the increased distrust of Starmer, tho still at lower levels than Tories, might reflect the fact that he is seen as more likely to gain power & is therefore scrutinised more carefully. You have become disillusioned by the party you support & have voted for; are now thrashing about like an injured whale [just re-reading Moby Dick] saying a curse on all yr houses. Because you are disillusioned we all have to be. I'm not. We more perceptive types were disillusioned with Johnson from Day 1, & are quite unsurprised by the awful damage he has done to the business & perception of politics in 3 years. He is & always was a charlatan. "These people on the street are called voters". Who chose them? Proof they do vote? & I've heard of unrepresentative samples but. .The practice of invoking vox pop by that method is ludicrous. It'sl like those bl--ody fone ins I have to endure when I get my hair cut. I have edited out my counter-personal-insults. You're not a bad old thing raelly: just mired ina Brexit/Tory mess of yr own making. Ah yes-of course. You perceptive giants of the left who thought Corbyn would beat him. What a tour de force-predicting that Johnson would have character flaws. Well colour me unimpressed. So now you don't think polling is credible . What are you doing babbling on a site devoted to following them ? Yes I am unhappy with the Tory Party just now. Well spotted. But it is an unhappiness which would never be alleviated by adopting the self righteous left wing pomposity which pervades your opinions. Well Colin you are on a tizz. I would sooner be pompous than snide. I considered the data n drew conclusions. If I'm wrong debate it. It's you who have resorted to venemous Polling-free babble. The polling you cited is at variance with yr comments. The distrust is mainly directed at Tory leaders N has greatly intensified under Johnson. Yes we lefties knew Johnson was a crook from day one. I have always distrusted self-entitled Tory toffs n he was the worst. Sorry if he fooled you. He fooled a lot of suckers. I voted 2x again Cornyn as Leader. I became totally disillusioned after the Eu Ref n criticised him on the old site frequently I voted for in '17 n '19. I knew we has lost in the latter. I didn't even bother to watch the results. If I remember we watched Citizen Kane instead.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2022 13:51:16 GMT
“ Ah yes-of course. You perceptive giants of the left who thought Corbyn would beat him. What a tour de force-predicting that Johnson would have character flaws. Well colour me unimpressed. So now you don't think polling is credible . What are you doing babbling on a site devoted to following them ? Yes I am unhappy with the Tory Party just now. Well spotted. But it is an unhappiness which would never be alleviated by adopting the self righteous left wing pomposity which pervades your opinions.” What a sad, typically nasty post from colin. It’s as though he can’t help himself somehow and yet the tone is so unnecessary. None of the “points” are really worth responding to but, with regard to the first line, I don’t know of anyone who voted Labour (despite a great lack of enthusiasm for Corbyn)who had the slightest expectation that he would win. In fact I would guess that many, like me, saw his predictable defeat as at least meaning he would - belatedly - step down and would therefore provide a slight silver lining to the election defeat. We all thought Johnson would be awful but I think the degree of that awfulness has still been quite shocking. And yet, here we go again with Truss.
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Post by mercian on Sept 1, 2022 13:54:31 GMT
Danny Please stop banging on about Covid. Surely you realise by now that you have already convinced anyone who's going to be convinced, of your theories. You will not gain any new converts, least of all alec , who's like a dog with a bone. If you feel that you must continue, there is a separate Covid thread. The pity of it is that you can make some good points on other subjects, but even I have taken to just scrolling past all your posts because the Covid ones are so tedious and repetitive.
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Post by crossbat11 on Sept 1, 2022 13:59:41 GMT
Hi crossbat11 Although I made the betrayal ps in joking manner, I do feel your position is in danger of allowing politicians off the hook in terms of accountability and is in part pandering to the ultra-cynical view of politics which is helping to undermine faith in politicians and our democratic process. And you can't have your cake and eat - criticising the likes of Johnson for their disingenuousness but then saying its totally ok for Starmer to say one thing to get elected and then do the exact opposite.
Voters have a right to expect politicians to keep to their commitments, and withdraw their support if the politician/party breaks those promises or acts contrary to them (as many 2010 LD VI did). Yes circumstances may change requiring a shift in policy, but it is beholden of the politician to explain why and at the discretion of the voter to decide if is justified and react accordingly. Voters can justifiably feel betrayed.
The conservative party, is and always will be the party of established power, privilege and wealth, and you expect them to act in a more cynical manner. The Labour Party's whole raison d'etre is around improving the lives of working people / people who need support - if it does not seek to deliver this and just seeks power for the sake of power then why should the likes of me support it? I've pledged my troth on how relaxed I am about opposition politicians playing internal politics to advance themselves. As I said, Starmer pulled the Left's trousers down in the leadership election with a nobler objective in mind. I think the degree of hyper-ventilated rage about the degree of treachery involved in his campaigning games is a little comical. If he betrayed voters with doing the opposite of what he pledged to do when in power, that indeed might be a more serious matter, although when and if he gets into Downing Street, there will be many things he probably will want to do but can't. Events and emerging priorities. The hard slog of buggering on in government. Loads of let downs and disappointments, no doubt, but lots of progress and achievements too. Besides, how do we know that he won't do quite a bit of what's he alleged to have said he wouldn't do having promised that he would do that Corbyn would have done..........zzzzz. This is navel gazing opposition powerless games. Let's see. You're getting your betrayals in too early. Your last paragraph is interesting. I take your point about Labour being a party the should champion the powerless and poor, and they usually do when in government in their imperfect ways, but that's not all they should exist to do. They exist to form governments that govern on behalf of, and for, everyone. This will include, under our electoral system, a majority of people who didn't vote for them. They are all citizens of this country who deserve to be kept secure, have their freedoms protected and given a chance to live fulfilling lives. To do that, Labour needs to be a party that goes way beyond just a few, however noble, political objectives. It seems to me that their first priority when they get into power is to unite and heal a deeply divided country and pretty broken society. They will to have to reach out to all social classes, genders, ages, vested interests etc. Crusades against poverty are only part of what Labour must be if they are to govern effectively this vast and complex country.
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Post by mercian on Sept 1, 2022 14:02:15 GMT
It's clearly poetry hour. "I've hunted near, I've hunted far I even looked inside my car. I've lost my glasses, I'm in need, To have them now so I can read. I loudly swear and I curse Did I leave them in my purse? Are they behind the sofa, under the bed? Oh there they are - on my head!" There was a young girl from Nantucket... On second thoughts, better not!
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Post by mercian on Sept 1, 2022 14:09:04 GMT
Basically retired people are electing the Tories nobody much else. What about the 40% of employed people? A few points behind Labour, but not much.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2022 14:13:55 GMT
@danny Please stop banging on about Covid. Surely you realise by now that you have already convinced anyone who's going to be convinced, of your theories. You will not gain any new converts, least of all alec , who's like a dog with a bone. If feel that you must continue, there is a separate Covid thread. The pity of it is that you can make some good points on other subjects, but even I have taken to just scrolling past all your posts because the Covid ones are so tedious and repetitive. I’ve done that for ages and do the same whenever I see an alec post addressed to Danny. The idea that he is peddling nonsense is one thing. The idea that it’s ‘dangerous’, given that everybody thinks it’s bollocks and most don’t even take any notice anyway, is stretching things a bit. As you suggest, come to some sort of private correspondence arrangement or get stuck into the covid thread together. I’m sure that would be fun…
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Post by mercian on Sept 1, 2022 14:18:37 GMT
Says a lot that he's forgotten her bloody name! ;-)
Thanks for the explanation, it makes more sense now!!
Yes lots of poetry is more wonderful when you have the "key" - it basically changes the whole meaning I don't like poetry which is deliberately obscure. Being a simple sort of chap I like poetry that goes rum-te-tum-te-tum, rhymes, and tells a story. e.g. Charge of the Light Brigade, Vitai Lampada, The Highwayman etc. Mostly Victorian lyric stuff.
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Post by crossbat11 on Sept 1, 2022 14:31:01 GMT
Yes lots of poetry is more wonderful when you have the "key" - it basically changes the whole meaning I don't like poetry which is deliberately obscure. Being a simple sort of chap I like poetry that goes rum-te-tum-te-tum, rhymes, and tells a story. e.g. Charge of the Light Brigade, Vitai Lampada, The Highwayman etc. Mostly Victorian lyric stuff. You'll like this one then, Mercy Man:- Steve Gerrarrrd, Gerrarrrd He can pass 40 yarrrrd He's big and he's f***ING harrrrd And he's better than Frank Lamparrrrd Steve Gerrarrrrd, Gerrarrrrd. Preferably recited in a Scouse accent and to the tune of Qué Sera.
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Post by crossbat11 on Sept 1, 2022 14:35:01 GMT
Just one final thought on the Starmer brokenpledgegate scandal.
What were the true believers on the Labour Left voting for him for anyway when they had the real thing on the ballot paper; Rebecca Long-Bailey??
Bit silly wasn't it?
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