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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Sept 1, 2022 14:47:50 GMT
No, I didn’t say it was just that Corbyn was unpopular, I pointed out there were other policy issues like Brexit. Robbie, you don’t seem that interested in constructive debate, but instead keep trying to shoehorn what I am saying - and indeed what I haven’t remotely said - into trying and question my motives. But my motives are irrelevant to the issue of what’s possible electorally. The shift leftward is independent of my views of Starmer. As might be any impact of the u-turns. Sure, I have noted electoral support for some policies he ditched, and that he has a certain way of dealing with challenges etc., it’s not unusual on this board to do that kind of thing. You can live in that cult-like world where you never examine your leader critically Robbie, only others’ leaders maybe, but the rest of us don’t have to. 1. No-one would make a cult of Starmer: besides, as Conrad said in his preface to Lord Jim: I object to favouristism in public life .... I was appalled when the members voted for Corbyn, I didn't, but also did not criticise him until his hopeless EU REF campaign. Corbyn also gaffed and advertised his delicate scruples on issues where silence or decisive action was required. Starmer avoids that. It's harder than it looks. I don't much care what he said in his leadership campaign or whether he knocks the left about. The Corbynistas had 5 years in power & ended after 2 elections in failure. 2. I'm not in a hurry. Lately, all Starmer needed to do was pronounce on the energy crisis: he has done so thru windfalll taxes & a fix.. He has ruled out a second Scottish referendum, & the Nats get excited about that, but I am as bothered about their concerns as they are about mine. We'll see. Yes, Corbyn copped much flak from the right of the party and yet now Starmer is not to be criticised. Can see some merit in Starmer being relatively minimal on policy for a good while, though Corbyn didn’t have that luxury, straight into the EU ref then the GE. Keeping quiet wasn’t doing great for Starmer though until Johnson’s gang imploded, but Truss may not have such a cavalier approach, and may not leave as many hostages to fortune. Of course that is far from guaranteed, but you have to consider how much things can turn around, e.g. 2015 GE. Of course it could all go swimmingly, but considering other possibilities: Does a lifting of Lib Dem policies indicate a bit of a policy vacuum, with Starmer not having been in politics that long? We will see. Likewise with the u-turns: may not matter with a big lead, but if things are tight? Some activists don’t seem to mind betrayals, unless it’s by other parties, when of course it becomes something to attack, but if you consider the polling I cited previously on Clegg and Blair, and what happened to LibDems after coalition, among the electorate perceived betrayals can do some long-term damage |
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steve
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Post by steve on Sept 1, 2022 14:51:46 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2022 14:54:54 GMT
Yes lots of poetry is more wonderful when you have the "key" - it basically changes the whole meaning I don't like poetry which is deliberately obscure. Being a simple sort of chap I like poetry that goes rum-te-tum-te-tum, rhymes, and tells a story. e.g. Charge of the Light Brigade, Vitai Lampada, The Highwayman etc. Mostly Victorian lyric stuff. I don't see why you should want other people to know about your simpleton tastes. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Sept 1, 2022 15:02:08 GMT
I've found the best poetry to have a good beginning, middle and
A pregnant pause
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Post by alec on Sept 1, 2022 15:08:34 GMT
steve there are three rules of poetry: 1) Express a story and paint with words 2) Create ambiguity and leave the reader wishing for more
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2022 15:13:08 GMT
Saturday Market
BY CHARLOTTE MEW
Bury your heart in some deep green hollow
Or hide it up in a kind old tree;
Better still, give it the swallow
When she goes over the sea.
In Saturday’s Market there’s eggs a ’plenty
And dead-alive ducks with their legs tied down,
Grey old gaffers and boys of twenty—
Girls and the women of the town—
Pitchers and sugar-sticks, ribbons and laces,
Poises and whips and dicky-birds’ seed,
Silver pieces and smiling faces,
In Saturday Market they’ve all they need.
What were you showing in Saturday Market
That set it grinning from end to end
Girls and gaffers and boys of twenty—?
Cover it close with your shawl, my friend—
Hasten you home with the laugh behind you,
Over the down—, out of sight,
Fasten your door, though no one will find you,
No one will look on a Market night.
See, you, the shawl is wet, take out from under
The red dead thing—. In the white of the moon
On the flags does it stir again? Well, and no wonder!
Best make an end of it; bury it soon.
If there is blood on the hearth who’ll know it?
Or blood on the stairs,
When a murder is over and done why show it?
In Saturday Market nobody cares.
Then lie you straight on your bed for a short, short weeping
And still, for a long, long rest,
There’s never a one in the town so sure of sleeping
As you, in the house on the down with a hole in your breast.
Think no more of the swallow,
Forget, you, the sea,
Never again remember the deep green hollow
Or the top of the kind old tree!
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Post by alec on Sept 1, 2022 15:14:04 GMT
From this article on the energy crisis - www.theguardian.com/money/2022/sep/01/energy-crisis-uk-households-worst-hit-in-western-europe-finds-imf we get an idea of the problem: "There is widespread agreement from energy experts on the best solutions: a large-scale and rapid insulation programme and a faster rollout of wind and solar energy, which produce electricity that is currently about nine times cheaper than that from gas, as well as short-term financial support for bill-payers." Lower down there is a reference to the fact that global gas prices set the price for UK energy, but that is not examined in detail, so the experts that are calling for the simple act of regulating the wholesale price of UK produced energy are effectively ignored within the article. It's this appallingly thin level of analysis that dogs this country. Every time we have a problem, whether it's housing costs, energy prices, covid, or anything else, we have a media that merrily sails past the blindingly obvious solutions in favour of conventional status quo options. We are so backwards. |
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Post by alec on Sept 1, 2022 15:17:21 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2022 15:35:23 GMT
nickpI like jolly poems like the one you posted. Not happy about the fate of the ducks though.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2022 15:40:28 GMT
nickp Not happy about the fate of the ducks though. They had it coming. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2022 15:47:43 GMT
Utterly bizarre that so many people have to die every day in the USA because of a constitution written 231 years ago for a totally different world. They need, collectively, to grow up.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2022 15:48:50 GMT
nickp Not happy about the fate of the ducks though. They had it coming. For waddling and quacking?!? Ducks 🦆 🦆 🦆 are beautiful. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2022 15:51:32 GMT
Get over yourself Colin. It sounds a little bit like bitterness at you having taken a punt on Johnsonism and it having been totally exposed as the total sham we knew it was. None at all. He was always a risk. I watched him at his best today at Sizewell. Too late sadly. I do react to pompous self important blowhards like robbie alive though. It will be good to watch Starmer cope with the post pandemic world. See if he measures up to your expectations. Some of your fellow LOCs have him down as a failure before he starts. Tories under Truss looks like a short trip to opposition to me. Which is probably what they need. |
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Post by domjg on Sept 1, 2022 16:00:44 GMT
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Post by ptarmigan on Sept 1, 2022 16:09:45 GMT
Just one final thought on the Starmer brokenpledgegate scandal. What were the true believers on the Labour Left voting for him for anyway when they had the real thing on the ballot paper; Rebecca Long-Bailey?? Bit silly wasn't it? Because, contrary to popular belief, those on the Labour Left are capable of pragmatism and do actually care about the party's electoral fortunes. I think there was an understandable fear that RLB would be tainted by association with Corbyn. A figure promoting themselves as a unity candidate who would heal the rifts within the party whilst pledging to retain a 'Corbynista' policy platform was therefore an attractive proposition. I'm a bit baffled as to why the mildest criticism of Starmer always results in a lot of handwringing about 'the left' on here. If people want to argue that any flavour of Labour government is better than a Tory government and people should vote accordingly then that's fine. I don't particularly need persuading on that front. Similarly, if people think how he's steering the party will make Labour more electable then that's also a perfectly valid argument, albeit open to debate. But I do think this idea that reneging on basically every pledge you made when you were seeking election as leader is some inconsequential, trifling matter, is a bit peculiar. Why shouldn't people feel aggrieved and disillusioned about that? Policy is surely at the very heart of what a political party is about. If you can't get enthused about the policy direction of a party and think that it's led by a fundamentally dishonest individual then it rather stands to reason that they risk losing your support. (I realise as I'm writing this that this is likely to be another one of those agree to disagree sort of deals, but oh well!) |
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steve
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Post by steve on Sept 1, 2022 16:31:14 GMT
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Post by graham on Sept 1, 2022 16:31:45 GMT
I have not been a Labour party member since deciding not to renew my membership at the end of 1996. I did,however, vote in the 2020 Leadership election as a member of an affiliated organisation. I voted for Starmer with little hesitation - but a Liar is a Liar is a Liar.Such a person is highly unlikely to be capable of restoring the respect in public life that the country needs so desperately. At the next GE I will not vote for another version of Blairism - just as I refused to do so in 1997 - 2001 and 2005.I hope that I am not faced with the choice of Voting Green - or spoiling my ballot paper.
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Post by jimjam on Sept 1, 2022 16:44:24 GMT
Just out.
@redfieldwilton
Labour leads by 11%.
Westminster Voting Intention (31 August):
Labour 42% (–)
Conservative 31% (-2)
Liberal Democrat 12% (-1)
Green 7% (+3)
Scottish National Party 4% (+1)
Reform UK 3% (-1)
Other 2% (-1)
Changes +/- 28 August
redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/magnified-emai… pic.twitter.com/8kjvB498Ut
01/09/2022, 17:00''
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Post by chrisaberavon on Sept 1, 2022 16:54:49 GMT
Good Evening JIM JAM.
Do you think the polls are looking more solid for the old party now? That Tory figure is quite low for them, but IMO the Lib Dem figure looks a little high.
Red Arrows flying over the Tobias Ellwood seat today; very large crowds staring at the skies and cheering; I felt 'well queasy' at the sounds of the jet engines.
All quiet in Aberavon but the rugby team is not the force that it was.
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Post by alec on Sept 1, 2022 16:54:50 GMT
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Sept 1, 2022 17:00:11 GMT
Just one final thought on the Starmer brokenpledgegate scandal. What were the true believers on the Labour Left voting for him for anyway when they had the real thing on the ballot paper; Rebecca Long-Bailey?? Bit silly wasn't it? Because, contrary to popular belief, those on the Labour Left are capable of pragmatism and do actually care about the party's electoral fortunes. I think there was an understandable fear that RLB would be tainted by association with Corbyn. A figure promoting themselves as a unity candidate who would heal the rifts within the party whilst pledging to retain a 'Corbynista' policy platform was therefore an attractive proposition. I'm a bit baffled as to why the mildest criticism of Starmer always results in a lot of handwringing about 'the left' on here. If people want to argue that any flavour of Labour government is better than a Tory government and people should vote accordingly then that's fine. I don't particularly need persuading on that front. Similarly, if people think how he's steering the party will make Labour more electable then that's also a perfectly valid argument, albeit open to debate. But I do think this idea that reneging on basically every pledge you made when you were seeking election as leader is some inconsequential, trifling matter, is a bit peculiar. Why shouldn't people feel aggrieved and disillusioned about that? Policy is surely at the very heart of what a political party is about. If you can't get enthused about the policy direction of a party and think that it's led by a fundamentally dishonest individual then it rather stands to reason that they risk losing your support. (I realise as I'm writing this that this is likely to be another one of those agree to disagree sort of deals, but oh well!) |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2022 17:03:03 GMT
Saving £150 to £250 pa ? Is that really a solution to £5k pa energy bills. ? |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Sept 1, 2022 17:07:23 GMT
Just out. @redfieldwilton Labour leads by 11%. Westminster Voting Intention (31 August): Labour 42% (–) Conservative 31% (-2) Liberal Democrat 12% (-1) Green 7% (+3) Scottish National Party 4% (+1) Reform UK 3% (-1) Other 2% (-1) Changes +/- 28 August redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/magnified-emai… pic.twitter.com/8kjvB498Ut 01/09/2022, 17:00'' DAMN! I'll have to redo the R&W August average. |
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Sept 1, 2022 17:26:01 GMT
Ah, the chastising of the left for standing up for what it believes in continues…
You have to be in power to do anything - for me as long as the timidity does not overly dictate policy when in government, the current approach is probably a price worth paying.
(ps I reserve the right to feel 'betrayed' etc if Labour gets into power and breaks my heart.) To me it's clear that if we don't remove them soon by any means possible we could pass a point of no return beyond which we may encounter scenarios I don't even want to think about. This is an emergency situation and literally any alternative would improve all our lives at this point and the standing of the country in Europe and internationally .
If you stop the Tories being re-elected, it doesn’t inevitably mean that you stop the bad stuff happening. If you help into power a party that doesn’t move left very much, then you are marking time till the Tories get in again and carry on where they left off. And making it more likely Tories will get in again, if you don’t enact left wing policy designed to lock the bad policies out more. instead, a soft right party may set up new angles for Tories to exploit. If instead you enact more left wing stuff, there is more the Tories might have to undo before they get back to the really bad stuff. And as with Corbyn, you might move the window leftwards so that Tories can’t so easily be quite as bad as they might have been. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2022 17:33:55 GMT
To me it's clear that if we don't remove them soon by any means possible we could pass a point of no return beyond which we may encounter scenarios I don't even want to think about. This is an emergency situation and literally any alternative would improve all our lives at this point and the standing of the country in Europe and internationally .
If you stop the Tories being re-elected, it doesn’t inevitably mean that you stop the bad stuff happening. If you help into power a party that doesn’t move left very much, then you are marking time till the Tories get in again and carry on where they left off. And making it more likely Tories will get in again, if you don’t enact left wing policy designed to lock the bad policies out more. instead, a soft right party may set up new angles for Tories to exploit. If instead you enact more left wing stuff, there is more the Tories might have to undo before they get back to the really bad stuff. And as with Corbyn, you might move the window leftwards so that Tories can’t so easily be quite as bad as they might have been. What would you recommend? |
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Post by crossbat11 on Sept 1, 2022 17:38:43 GMT
I have not been a Labour party member since deciding not to renew my membership at the end of 1996. I did,however, vote in the 2020 Leadership election as a member of an affiliated organisation. I voted for Starmer with little hesitation - but a Liar is a Liar is a Liar.Such a person is highly unlikely to be capable of restoring the respect in public life that the country needs so desperately. At the next GE I will not vote for another version of Blairism - just as I refused to do so in 1997 - 2001 and 2005.I hope that I am not faced with the choice of Voting Green - or spoiling my ballot paper. Crikey, I'm surprised his bloody pants weren't on fire too. |
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Post by robbiealive on Sept 1, 2022 17:47:22 GMT
I don’t know of anyone who voted Labour (despite a great lack of enthusiasm for Corbyn)who had the slightest expectation that he would win. In fact I would guess that many, like me, saw his predictable defeat as at least meaning he would - belatedly - step down and would therefore provide a slight silver lining to the election defeat. We all thought Johnson would be awful but I think the degree of that awfulness has still been quite shocking. And yet, here we go again with Truss. I think the rule of the site ios you re polite to people who themselves are polite: Lulupop, Charles, Somerjohn, etc but those who dish it out can expect sometimes to get it back in kind. no names no pack drill.Can't see a problem really. Johnson was worse than expected. There is a sense of frustration that the English, once so raucous, irreverent & blasphemous in the face of authotity, are so deferential to a certain of Tories. But politically that does not get you v far. |
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Sept 1, 2022 17:49:46 GMT
If you stop the Tories being re-elected, it doesn’t inevitably mean that you stop the bad stuff happening. If you help into power a party that doesn’t move left very much, then you are marking time till the Tories get in again and carry on where they left off. And making it more likely Tories will get in again, if you don’t enact left wing policy designed to lock the bad policies out more. instead, a soft right party may set up new angles for Tories to exploit. If instead you enact more left wing stuff, there is more the Tories might have to undo before they get back to the really bad stuff. And as with Corbyn, you might move the window leftwards so that Tories can’t so easily be quite as bad as they might have been. What would you recommend? Well yes that’s the point, I don’t see it as being all that clear. For example, if Labour adopt policies more like Corbyn, then even if the policies are popular the media may trash the party or leader, and VI takes a hammering. If they don’t, then we may get the problem I outlined above. An important part of the debate is therefore how much might the media accept. Can the left develop enough of their own media platform to compensate. Then there is what people might do outside of party structures, regardless of who gets elected. A lot of politics happens that way. That said, looking at trends, you can see pressures to shift leftwards and media seem to be responding a bit to that. E.g. Guardian pushing nationalisation. Then there is the issue of what the right in the party might or might not accept and so on. |
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Post by crossbat11 on Sept 1, 2022 17:54:17 GMT
I don't like poetry which is deliberately obscure. Being a simple sort of chap I like poetry that goes rum-te-tum-te-tum, rhymes, and tells a story. e.g. Charge of the Light Brigade, Vitai Lampada, The Highwayman etc. Mostly Victorian lyric stuff. I don't see why you should want other people to know about your simpleton tastes. Actually, I think that's a gratuitously unpleasant thing to say to anyone. A bit of personal abuse mixed with intellectual snobbery. I'm all for a bit of leg pulling, even taking the piss, and I'm prepared to get it back too, but I don't like this sort of stuff at all, no matter how different our political views may be. You're developing form on this. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2022 18:01:33 GMT
I have not been a Labour party member since deciding not to renew my membership at the end of 1996. I did,however, vote in the 2020 Leadership election as a member of an affiliated organisation. I voted for Starmer with little hesitation - but a Liar is a Liar is a Liar.Such a person is highly unlikely to be capable of restoring the respect in public life that the country needs so desperately. At the next GE I will not vote for another version of Blairism - just as I refused to do so in 1997 - 2001 and 2005.I hope that I am not faced with the choice of Voting Green - or spoiling my ballot paper. Crikey, I'm surprised his bloody pants weren't on fire too. Regardless of pants, I think that is definitely going to show ‘em. Hope he doesn’t have to vote Green though. |
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