|
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on May 16, 2022 17:18:04 GMT
Bit more from the Michael Young article:
“The more controversial prediction and the warning followed from the historical analysis. I expected that the poor and the disadvantaged would be done down, and in fact they have been. If branded at school they are more vulnerable for later unemployment.
...
They have been deprived by educational selection of many of those who would have been their natural leaders, the able spokesmen and spokeswomen from the working class who continued to identify with the class from which they came.
Their leaders were a standing opposition to the rich and the powerful in the never-ending competition in parliament and industry between the haves and the have-nots.
With the coming of the meritocracy, the now leaderless masses were partially disfranchised; as time has gone by, more and more of them have been disengaged, and disaffected to the extent of not even bothering to vote. They no longer have their own people to represent them.
To make the point it is worth comparing the Attlee and Blair cabinets.
The two most influential members of the 1945 cabinet were Ernest Bevin, acclaimed as foreign secretary, and Herbert Morrison, acclaimed as lord president of the council and deputy prime minister.
Bevin left school at 11 to take a job as a farm boy, and was subsequently a kitchen boy, a grocer's errand boy, a van boy, a tram conductor and a drayman before, at the age of 29, he became active locally in Bristol in the Dock Wharf, Riverside and General Labourers' union.
Herbert Morrison was in many ways an even more significant figure, whose rise to prominence was not so much through the unions as through local government.
...
Quite a few other members of the Attlee cabinet, like Bevan and Griffiths (miners both), had similar lowly origins and so were also a source of pride for many ordinary people who could identify with them.
It is a sharp contrast with the Blair cabinet, largely filled as it is with members of the meritocracy.
...
In the new social environment, the rich and the powerful have been doing mighty well for themselves. They have been freed from the old kinds of criticism from people who had to be listened to. This once helped keep them in check - it has been the opposite under the Blair government.”
|
|
oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
|
Post by oldnat on May 16, 2022 17:22:17 GMT
Westminster Voting Intention (15 May): Labour 39% (–) Conservative 35% (+2) Liberal Democrat 12% (–) Green 6% (-1) Scottish National Party 4% (-1) Reform UK 3% (+1) Other 1% (–) Changes +/- 8 May redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voti… pic.twitter.com/llPkaIPfMh A somewhat "surprising" Scots crossbreak on their first chart! SGP 40% : SNP 5%. They put them the wrong way round.  |
|
|
|
Post by leftieliberal on May 16, 2022 17:51:40 GMT
Westminster Voting Intention (15 May): Labour 39% (–) Conservative 35% (+2) Liberal Democrat 12% (–) Green 6% (-1) Scottish National Party 4% (-1) Reform UK 3% (+1) Other 1% (–) Changes +/- 8 May redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voti… pic.twitter.com/llPkaIPfMh CON up 2% in a week is a little surprising to me. Beergate bounce? CON support appears to be firming up a tad at 33/34% ish in recent polls. No sign of it heading south to 30% at this stage. Just normal variation. See my R&W graph (cropped just to show Tories and Labour): Attachment Deleted |
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,606
|
Post by pjw1961 on May 16, 2022 17:59:37 GMT
Does the current RoI government truly want Irish reunification any time soon? SF undoubtedly does. Not so sure if the other FG and FF are so keen to take on the money pit that is NI economy or the possibility of Orange men putting on balaclavas. To me, the beauty of the GFA is that everyone hates/resents it pretty much equally whereas the NIP is only hated by loyalists. "Does the current RoI government truly want Irish reunification any time soon?" - No way, I would reckon or any RoI government probably even including a Sinn Fein led one. Whatever umbrella it eventually ends up under the polity known as 'Northern Ireland' and it's devolved political institutions are likely to remain in existence for a very long time. People used to say that about West and East Germany but when the chance came, the Federal Republic took on the GDR even at considerable cost to its economy for many years plus importing a set of voters with different ideas and priorities. When it came to it, emotion overruled economic or political calculation. I think it would be the same with Ireland. The country which might have the biggest problem with this somewhere down the line is South Korea. The Koreans are a single ethnic and linguistic people divided only by politics. Given the chance it should be one country. But it will mean a rich and successful economy taking over one of the biggest basket cases in the world, hopelessly mismanaged and currently in the grip of another famine, plus a Covid pandemic. |
|
|
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on May 16, 2022 18:01:06 GMT
Then some have questioned whether a meritocracy is such a good thing, e.g. Lord Young’s concerns about the rise of the Meritocracy in his book. His book was supposed to be a satire and he was trying to suggest a meritocracy might present problems for the Labour Party; he didn’t seem too chuffed when Blair embraced the idea of meritocracy. www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/jun/29/comment‘Down with meritocracy Michael Young The man who coined the word four decades ago wishes Tony Blair would stop using it” I think what Lord Young recognised was that the rise of the meritocracy would leave the working class without the natural leaders they had had before and so created a class of 'left behinds' with no one to lead them who would fall prey to populists (at least that would be my interpretation, although it was a long time ago that I last read it). It isn't "the rise of the meritocracy" that deserves criticism, so much as his other conception: Toby Young. Yes the aspect you mention on leaders is something I decided to give a bit more info on by quoting a bit more of Young in a subsequent post. I don’t think the impact on leaders is the only way he thinks it holds them back: the way education is done, favouring particular attributes and values also screens people out from opportunities. As I quoted the other day, Piketty et al argue that education is becoming a key factor in class terms, increasingly determining how people vote, then you have the comments about education in the article Crossbat linked to, where Sandel argues “Credentialism has become the last acceptable prejudice.” (Regarding Toby, yes it was a bit of a shock to learn who his Dad was, but it can cut the other way. E.g. the way Blair’s son is possibly challenging his Dad’s preference for HE a bit via greater emphasis on apprenticeships. Early days though...) |
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,606
|
Post by pjw1961 on May 16, 2022 18:14:33 GMT
Rather than Cromwell, I prefer Thomas Rainsborough's observation in the Putney Debates (although these days it would encompass she's as well as he's): "I think that the poorest he that is in England hath a life to live, as the greatest he; and therefore truly, Sir, I think it's clear, that every man that is to live under a government ought first by his own consent to put himself under that government; and I do think that the poorest man in England is not bound in a strict sense to that government that he hath not had a voice to put himself under." I have no voice in selecting the Monarch, therefore I do not consider myself bound to recognise the existence of that institution or regard myself as a subject of it. For the avoidance of doubt, Rainsborough was calling for universal male suffrage in 1648 - it wasn't finally achieved until 1918, and we are still stuck with an unelected head of state. A good argument for Brexit! To be fair the UK population was given a direct say in 1975 and gave its consent to remain in the European Community (as then was) by 67.2% to 32.8%, so our membership passes Rainsborough's test. I stay out of the Brexit debates on here, so I offer no opinion as to whether it was right to vote again in 2016. All I have ever say is that I voted Remain in 2016 and nothing that has happened since makes me think I got that wrong. |
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,606
|
Post by pjw1961 on May 16, 2022 18:35:45 GMT
Turkey is saying that it will not approve Sweden and Finland joining NATO ("The Turkish president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, has said he will not approve Finland and Sweden joining Nato. Reuters is reporting he has said Swedish and Finnish delegations should not bother coming to Turkey to convince Turkey to approve their Nato bids.") This may be posturing to get concessions regarding Kurdish groups in those countries. However, if Erdogan really means it I think the rest of NATO should make it clear that Turkey will be kicked out. Frankly, they have been an uncomfortable partner for years. The attached article explores the legal issues about doing this, although it is more of a political issue really: www.justsecurity.org/66574/can-turkey-be-expelled-from-nato/ |
|
|
|
Post by shevii on May 16, 2022 18:42:41 GMT
Redfield & Wilton Strategies
@redfieldwilton
·
2h
Lowest net approval for Starmer that we have recorded this year.
Keir Starmer Approval Rating (15 May):
Approve: 25% (-1)
Disapprove: 34% (+6)
Net: -9% (-7)
Changes +/- 8 May
We seem to be getting a lot of conflicting polling on whether "beergate" has or hasn't cut through- this one not following the pattern of the headline VI suggests it has but plenty of other polling seems to show no change so dependent on the question I suspect. I suppose one way of looking at those figures is that the 25% approval and the 41% who don't have a view isn't going to stop Starmer becoming PM.
|
|
hireton
Member
Posts: 2,811
Member is Online
|
Post by hireton on May 16, 2022 19:13:05 GMT
It looks as though DUP aren't playing ball with Johnson's NI gambit (yes, I know that's a mixed metaphor):
|
|
|
|
Post by jib on May 16, 2022 19:36:23 GMT
It looks as though DUP aren't playing ball with Johnson's NI gambit (yes, I know that's a mixed metaphor): This whole situation is ridiculous. The DUP represents a minority of Northern Ireland, and Johnson has screwed them over big time. The DUP were foolish getting into bed with the Tories in 2017, they came out sullied just like the Lib Dems. |
|
oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
|
Post by oldnat on May 16, 2022 19:55:29 GMT
J (not in) B
The then UKGov supported and fomented armed rebellion by the Protestant community in Ulster at the start of the 20th century - entirely in its own interests.
Successive UKGovs continued to support a Protestant state in NI for decades - again in its own interests.
In its own interests, for most of the 2nd half of the 20th century, UKGovs lied and used black propaganda in countries around the world, as well as within its own state.
www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/14/secret-british-black-propaganda-campaign-targeted-cold-war-enemies-information-research-department
There is absolutely no reason to believe that they (or other Govs) are any different now - which probably explains why UK/US intelligence about the imminent invasion of Ukraine wasn't believed (though this time it was true).
|
|
oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
|
Post by oldnat on May 16, 2022 20:11:04 GMT
As a further example of UK propaganda, one might note the state broadcaster reporting the ideas of a very right wing campaign group, as if it were a serious non-partisan "think-tank".
www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-61468862
Those in England should enjoy the remnants of your NHS while you still have them.
|
|
|
|
Post by davwel on May 16, 2022 20:14:53 GMT
We had interesting character at work at lunchtime, an immigrant plumber who spoke like a local. We had had water overflowing out of our loft feeder tank since Saturday night baths, this making going in and out of our main door quite unpleasant.
On arrival, his first question was not about the overflow, but where do you come from in England. Lancashire, I answered, then "you di`vent vote Tory then" and to my answer he said "good". Whether a yes would have produced a walk-out, I am not sure. But he continued in mirror-opposite fashion to what I imagine readers of the Daily Mail are like.
In our 10 minutes of conversation around him starting climbing the ladder into the loft, and descending, he talked of the "English government" probably ten times, and complained bitterly about Brexit delaying the delivery of parts and putting up costs. He said the English government didn`t want to pay decent old-age pensions at EU`s level, so they forced us out, against our vote. Just dictators.
I feel he has counterparts in many men working in small businesses here. Like our MOT garage that is festooned with SNP posters; again I fear any adverse comment could lead to a fail. Immigrant ladies are less blunt and more gracious - my wife in seeking help for her various health problems, observes that East Europeans considerably outnumber locals, from receptionists up to the skilled professionals, and are efficient and knowledgeable.
What media produce these far-out ideas I don`t know, but IMHO there is a fair chance that the DUP voters in N.I. have similar misunderstandings of our UK and EU governments, their weaknesses getting much exaggerated.
|
|
oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
|
Post by oldnat on May 16, 2022 20:43:07 GMT
|
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,718
|
Post by steve on May 16, 2022 20:49:32 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by leftieliberal on May 16, 2022 21:13:13 GMT
That goes back to Thatcher's Government, which was responsible for breaking the link between state pensions and average earnings, leaving state pensions to be indexed only by inflation, which was much lower over that period. When you've been shafted once, you don't trust a government that tells you breaking the triple lock will only be temporary. |
|
oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
|
Post by oldnat on May 16, 2022 21:28:18 GMT
leftieliberal
davwel's plumber might reasonably point out that the Thatcher government was elected mainly due to the votes of the electorate in England, implementing the policy choices of that electorate, but due to its dual role, the English government was able to foist those ideas on all of the UK.
If you want to just "blame the Tories", you might consider that neither the Con/LD coalition or Labour reversed that policy option and the UK state pension remains the worst in the developed world.
The issue has particular salience in Scotland as, in 2014, BritNats of all parties were claiming that an indy Scotland wouldn't even be able to maintain that bottom of the table status.
|
|
oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
|
Post by oldnat on May 16, 2022 21:34:28 GMT
davwel
Have you considered that your local MOT garage might have a reasonable case to sue you for defamation?
|
|
|
|
Post by alec on May 16, 2022 21:38:29 GMT
Some reality creeping into Russian state TV coverage of the war -
|
|
|
|
Post by mercian on May 16, 2022 21:50:16 GMT
alec He's a brave man. Either Russia isn't quite as totalitarian as I thought, or he's off to the gulag/graveyard.
|
|
|
|
Post by davwel on May 16, 2022 21:51:38 GMT
I am going to shock some friends on here, by saying that some old-age pensions in EU countries are too generous, and the world has many problems that are more in need of substantial spending than for us "retired".
Our UK pensions seem to me about right, and local-authority spending more urgently needs increasing than pensions meantime. We want roads that are not impassable for locals who don`t have high-clearance 4x4s, more housing for lower earners, more health and care-home staff.
And from what Alec reported on DEFRA proposing to pare down Habitat Directive spending, our farRight Tories clearly believe that conservation and climate warming have minor importance.
|
|
|
|
Post by alec on May 16, 2022 21:55:40 GMT
There are also unconfirmed reports that Ukrainian forces have crossed the Donets River near Stari Saltov (E of Kharkiv). If true, that would be quite significant, as that potentially allows an encirclement of Russian forces at Izyum, although the Russian focus now appears to be a much smaller attempt to cut off Ukrainian defenders further south, which is still gaining some ground, albeit slowly.
|
|
oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
|
Post by oldnat on May 16, 2022 21:59:44 GMT
davwel
It's certainly an interesting suggestion that having the worst state pension provision in the developed world is "about right". Of course those of "us retired" who have good occupational pensions are often well provided for, so for us urging the elderly poor to continue to suffer that position would be quite acceptable - if you subscribe to the views of successive UKGovs, which you obviously do.
Tories aren't all in the Conservative Party!
|
|
|
|
Post by peterbell on May 16, 2022 22:07:20 GMT
Alec wrote : "Some reality creeping into Russian state TV coverage of the war -"
Is the Kremlin starting to inform the Russian public that the situation is not going well in preparation for a gradual back down or am I too optimistic. If the guy is still reporting in the next few days then perhaps it is coming from the top
|
|
|
|
Post by mercian on May 16, 2022 22:09:14 GMT
I am going to shock some friends on here, by saying that some old-age pensions in EU countries are too generous, and the world has many problems that are more in need of substantial spending than for us "retired". Our UK pensions seem to me about right, and local-authority spending more urgently needs increasing than pensions meantime. We want roads that are not impassable for locals who don`t have high-clearance 4x4s, more housing for lower earners, more health and care-home staff. On this comparison to EU pensions, I wonder whether they've allowed for the fact that many who have no private or work-based pensions are entitled to various benefits in this country? I think there's one called Pension Credit for instance. How do these top-ups compare to other countries? |
|
|
|
Post by peterbell on May 16, 2022 22:09:39 GMT
Sky reporting and showing video of injured Ukranian soldiers leaving Mariupol in preparation for a prisoner swap
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2022 22:12:50 GMT
alec He's a brave man. Either Russia isn't quite as totalitarian as I thought, or he's off to the gulag/graveyard. Indeed. An astonishingly frank analysis in the circumstances. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for his next appearance on Russian state TV, though. |
|
|
|
Post by jib on May 16, 2022 22:26:50 GMT
alec He's a brave man. Either Russia isn't quite as totalitarian as I thought, or he's off to the gulag/graveyard. His toothpaste will be replaced with a tube of mint flavour novichok knowing that lot. But a frank and realistic assessment nonetheless, especially that the whole world is now against Russia. |
|
|
|
Post by bardin1 on May 16, 2022 22:28:07 GMT
There are also unconfirmed reports that Ukrainian forces have crossed the Donets River near Stari Saltov (E of Kharkiv). If true, that would be quite significant, as that potentially allows an encirclement of Russian forces at Izyum, although the Russian focus now appears to be a much smaller attempt to cut off Ukrainian defenders further south, which is still gaining some ground, albeit slowly. That would be very significant IMO. River crossings are not easy and indicates Russia not in control of the situation, if true. |
|
|
|
Post by somerjohn on May 16, 2022 22:32:24 GMT
Isa: "I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for his next appearance on Russian state TV, though."
Didn't this military commentator do something similarly outspoken a few days ago? Perhaps, as Peter Bell speculated, there may have been a decision at some level to allow an element of realism to creep into Russian public awareness. Of course, there will be well informed, influential people in Russia who have a realistic appreciation of the bind Russia has put itself in, and they may have decided to make a move. I hope this is a sign of the ground starting to shift under Putin.
|
|
