steve
Member
Posts: 12,663
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Post by steve on May 4, 2022 15:44:48 GMT
alec As a participant in the ons survey we've been told it will continue but with postal testing rather than in person. You do get paid for participation and the payment has just been cut by 20%.
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on May 4, 2022 15:54:16 GMT
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Post by crossbat11 on May 4, 2022 16:20:31 GMT
Hi crossbat11 Well I was never a Corbynista and the historian in me bridles when I sense history is being re-written etc. I wasn't meaning to play down what ED Miliband was subjected to - and what I know of his character from friends who have worked for him he is one of the most decent people in politics and the attacks were truly undeserved, as were those against Brown.
Historically I tend to support who I view as the most electorate friendly candidate, I went for David over Ed, and for Lisa Nandy rather than KS. Over the last few years I have moved a bit more towards the 'Labour need to stand for something' rather than 'We just need Labour to be in power'. My own views/policy preferences are obviously left wing socialist, but Labour needs a broad church appeal to build the necessary coalition to win. We're not far apart on this, even to the extent that I voted for David Milliband in 2010 and was torn between Starmer and Nandy in 2020. I plumped for Starmer but am still unsure whether I made the right choice or not. Nandy has impressed whereas Starmer has found the spotlight difficult. In 2015 I voted for Burnham as opposed to Corbyn you won't be surprised to know, but respected the choice and campaigned twice for him to become PM. Once quite enthusiastically, the other time with a very heavy heart. I accept that power without a political vision or any idea what to do with it is pointless, but the age old dilemma for any progressive party is to form a coalition of voters big enough to get them elected. This doesn't preclude having a radical agenda but it does inevitably involve reassuring and then capturing a slice of what is essentially a conservatively inclined electorate. |
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,583
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Post by pjw1961 on May 4, 2022 16:20:41 GMT
Black civil rights and LGBT rights will be next up for removal. I've 'liked' quite a few of your posts lately, but this is utter fantasy. In fairness, I should explain why I said that. Roe v Wade which legalised abortion at a federal level was based on the 14th amendment to the constitution. The decision was based on the understanding that women, as human beings and citizens, should be allowed control over their own bodies. The revised opinion means that in many states are soon as they become pregnant they will merely be regarded as fetus incubators, (and in some states this will be so even if carrying the child risks their life or it is the product of rape or incest). Alito, in his judgement, makes reference to this being 'moral' case, letting the cat out of the bag that the 5 ultra-right wing members of the court (all of whom were specifically selected for their known anti-abortion views) are actually taking a political/religious decision despite 98 pages of covering guff. Hence the 3 Democrat judges will dissent and I wouldn't be surprised if Roberts, the moderate Republican, comes up with a third view. Rulings based the 14th amendment are also the basis for gay marriage, the legality of same sex relations, interracial marriage, women's access to contraception and the like. Following Alito's logic all of that should now be decided at state level and there are many states that would happily ban the lot. Civil Rights is not based on the 14th amendment, so that is a little different, but many Republican states have been successfully eating away at the right of minorities to vote for years and will be emboldened to continue. Incidentally, I note that Danny, in his usual contrarian way, has posted several times that the court got this right. He may care to consider that as a gay man the same people who are keen to deny the humanity of pregnant women would be equally keen to criminalise him too. |
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Post by mercian on May 4, 2022 16:26:00 GMT
(approaches door in a pub)
(opens door)
"Whoops, sorry, didn't realise it was a Labour Party meeting"
(backs out and goes round to public bar)
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on May 4, 2022 16:34:53 GMT
(approaches door in a pub) (opens door) "Whoops, sorry, didn't realise it was a Labour Party meeting" (backs out and goes round to public bar) .  |
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Post by thylacine on May 4, 2022 16:38:05 GMT
(approaches door in a pub) (opens door) "Whoops, sorry, didn't realise it was a Labour Party meeting" (backs out and goes round to public bar) Pint for me and a packet of cheese and onion crisps please. |
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Post by crossbat11 on May 4, 2022 16:42:26 GMT
(approaches door in a pub) (opens door) "Whoops, sorry, didn't realise it was a Labour Party meeting" (backs out and goes round to public bar) Crikey, the bouncers must have been having a kip for you to get that far. 😁 |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2022 17:13:57 GMT
Who said it's a shame the ROC posters have finished as all the LOCs simply agree with each other!  Rubbish. |
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Post by robbiealive on May 4, 2022 17:15:30 GMT
Corbyn and brexit. I feel that this is something he is unfairly maligned for. During the campaign, he criss-crossed the county campaigning for remain, but...the press and media just weren't interested. On the other hand, Corbyn's much (IMO wrongly) derided "7 out of 10" comment spoke to me, a staunch remainer / rejoiner, basically saying that the EU isn't prefect - and sometimes gets things wrong (just as the UK parliament does), but, we're far better in than out - and that we have so much to lose by leaving. For me - and I'm sure many others, that was bang on the money.
I know we have been through this many times before. I watched the "7 out of 10 comment." Corbyn sat there looking inert, like a desiccated Prof of Sociology discussing an abstruse theory. If that precious hand-wringing was his (and your!) idea of effective campaigning in a YES NO vote, no wonder we lost. He was hopeless and hapless on that occasion. Anyway, he was never committed to to the EU & failed to represent Labour voters who were daft enough to select him: & the riff he voted BREXIT had a ring of truth. I watched Brown give a 5 minute speech at the end of the campaign that had more life that Corbyn's entire contribution. As for the argument the media ignored him: well bl--dy well change yr campaign then &, for example, do what he refused to do -- so fastidious as always -- & appear with the other party leaders etc. All party leaders are selfish but he was the most selfish of the lot: having lost in 2016 & 17 he should have resigned. I didn't vote for Corbyn in the leadership contest in 2015 (my choice was Cooper) & thought the members were mad to choose him. I gave him the benefit of the doubt until 2016. And given his famous "pull" with the young why did he fail to mobilise the young voters who couldn't be bothered to turn out & whose lazy non-voting sealed the deal for Brexit. It's now their problem! |
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Post by johntel on May 4, 2022 17:17:19 GMT
(approaches door in a pub) (opens door) "Whoops, sorry, didn't realise it was a Labour Party meeting" (backs out and goes round to public bar) Pint for me and a packet of cheese and onion crisps please. Just a half of mild and a packet of pork scratchings for me please. I really look forward to Thursday Curry Nights  |
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Post by EmCat on May 4, 2022 17:36:52 GMT
Hi @ crossbat11 That's fine, but it's silly to think that this criticism is coming from what I'd describe as within the real Labour PartyTop 10 of Those responsible for Brexit:
1) Those who voted to Leave
2) Cameron (for calling the ref in the first place and then leading a piss poor remain campaign)
3) Rupert Murdoch
4) Johnson
5) Rothermere
6) Nigel Farage
7) The Tory Party
8) Dominic Cummings
9) Jo Swinson* - who gave Johnson his election and attempted to use the '19 election to dislodge Labour as the main opposition party with the good old LD slogan of 'Go back to your constituencies and prepare for another Tory Government'.
10) Nicola Sturgeon - as above gave Johnson his election and was motivated by desire to ensure SNP electoral dominance North of the boarder and use Brexit as means to further drive for Independence
I'd broadly agree, though Farage, Murdoch & Rothermere, with their decades long "EU bad" lines, and Cummings with his "burn down the institutions" mindset I'd place all higher than Cameron, who was merely reacting to their agenda. I'd also place Cameron higher than the voters, as they were responding to Cameron's agenda. |
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Post by shevii on May 4, 2022 17:37:00 GMT
Sienna Rodgers
@siennamarla
·
57m
Tory peer and elections analyst Lord Hayward says he is picking up that postal vote returns are "down quite markedly on 2018" and he does "not expect a compensatory higher turnout on the day". He thinks most likely general decline in overall turnout – hard pushed to reach 30%.
******************
This may benefit Labour based on postal votes in general being more Tory, although it doesn't mean that In Person votes don't follow the pattern but I think Labour would rather be 1-0 up than 1-0 down.
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Post by jayblanc on May 4, 2022 17:47:30 GMT
I know we have been through this many times before. I watched the "7 out of 10 comment." Corbyn sat there looking inert, like a desiccated Prof of Sociology discussing an abstruse theory. If that precious hand-wringing was his (and your!) idea of effective campaigning in a YES NO vote, no wonder we lost. He was hopeless and hapless on that occasion. Anyway, he was never committed to to the EU & failed to represent Labour voters who were daft enough to select him: & the riff he voted BREXIT had a ring of truth. Corbyn's decision to not only want to put distance between himself and Europe, but also wanting the UK to pull out of NATO, and desire to see NATO disbanded, have put him firmly on the wrong side of history. It's also a part of the paradox of Hard Left Gerontocracy, too many ideological-purity chasing young activists mistake 'Charismatic Figures with Decades of History' as being good choices as leaders. Putting all of Corbyn's personal politics aside, he was a bad manager. The kind who says he 'has an open door policy' and always welcomes 'productive discussions', then defers decision making to the clique of middle management that supports him. The Corbyn and Sanders campaigns were twins, both with Movements that projected ideals onto their leader that were not backed up by their actions, and covered for any of their leader's foibles by dismissing them as attacks on the solidarity of the movement. In particular I am offended by those who want to revise the history of the Anti-Semitism issue, to make it solely that Corbyn himself had never said anything anti-semetic, and thus "all a lie". Ignoring that the issue was Corbyn declining to discipline members of his supporter movement that had engaged in anti-semitism, his counter-attacks on the process of investigating the issue, and his interventions in attempting to dismiss the issue as 'fabricated attacks' on himself. The Corbyn apologists constantly obfuscate that it was his mismanagement and mishandling of the issue that magnified and worsened it. Of course it can also go the other way, with people entrenched in mindsets of having to 'fight off' the spectres of Corbyn and Sanders, and failing to engage with anyone who ever expressed support for them. See for example the tranch of US Democrats who spent the last two years continuing to berate those they blame for losing 2016, instead of focusing on who was actually blocking reform legislation in the senate. Labour want to jettison Corbyn completely, basically to cauterise the wound. Hopefully they can do so without also jettisoning the policies that were very popular with the electorate, and without alienating those who can still help the party. |
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Post by robbiealive on May 4, 2022 17:51:02 GMT
From where I was sitting Corbyn was the one trying to get consensus and avoid a no-deal or hard Brexit - it was the SNP and LD that broke ranks and let slip the dogs of Johnson. He didn't want Labour to go full on Remain as that risked losing the Red Wall - he was right as it turned out. You're right: once the country voted Brexit, Labour were in a hole: stuck between a ROCK (its supporters being chiefly Remainers) & a HARD Place (the Red Wallers), a conundrum that Corbyn understood more than most. The Tory Remainers voted Tory, the Labour Brexiteers defected to the Tories in large numbers. (Whenever I make a comment on voting that know- all James B or E proves me wrong, but I think that's indisputable.) And the Lib Dems/SNP made the running for the December 2019 election, what ever muddle Corbyn got himself into. Swinson had a huge attack of Hubris: did she really think the big Lib-Dem vote in the (last) EU election in 2019 actually meant anything! The SNP of course knew they would clean up in the election -- having made a relative mess of things in 2017 -- & reckoned that Johnson & a hard Brexit would not damage an Indy Out Vote. You said an election would have occurred in 2020 anyway. Ha ha: Covid would have prevented that for at least a year or even two & would probably have forced a cross-party response given Johnson's small majority: a couple of months made all the difference. Just spent wonderful 2.5 weeks in the midge-free Cairngorms & Mull (God's own island: St Columba only went there for the scenery) in brilliant weather. Many pubs/restaurants etc in both areas offering a restricted service because of labour shortages. Brexit I assume: costing the Scottish hospitality industry a lot of money. A pity as there have been clear signs recently that the islands were enjoying a renewal of foreign visitors. |
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Post by alec on May 4, 2022 17:53:42 GMT
Very interesting to see visual confirmation of a modern (2019+) Russian T-90M tank destroyed in a fail counter attack near Kharkiv. These tanks were sent into Ukraine only very recently, and are Russia's most modern and capable tank, with enhanced armour, defensive systems prevent guided munitions and air defence systems. Occasional articles about their fearsome capabilities have appeared in the western press in recent years, with reports suggesting that they are going to revolutionise land warfare etc etc, but it appears that the Ukrainians have identified at least one weakness.
Edit: I've just read that Russia only has 40 of these in service in total, so this one loss represents 2.5% of that.
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steve
Member
Posts: 12,663
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Post by steve on May 4, 2022 17:53:44 GMT
It's been vaguely reminiscent of my last days as a Labour party member following on from the defeat of Owen Smith in an effort to return the Labour party to some semblance of a broad church.
It was a true joy then to be told to " f*ck off you red Tory" by crusty old neo trots who had just "rejoined" after 50 years in the SWP and spotty youths who considered shouting was better than reasoned argument. Because I'd had the temerity not to support their guru .By people who hadn't been born until thirty yearsafter I first voted Labour or hadn't ventured out to campaign for Labour ever but had spent the previous four decades doing their level best to make Tories election prospects better.
So f*ckty off I did.
Fortunately we're generally a better class of political nerds here.
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on May 4, 2022 18:08:27 GMT
Very interesting to see visual confirmation of a modern (2019+) Russian T-90M tank destroyed in a fail counter attack near Kharkiv. These tanks were sent into Ukraine only very recently, and are Russia's most modern and capable tank, with enhanced armour, defensive systems prevent guided munitions and air defence systems. Occasional articles about their fearsome capabilities have appeared in the western press in recent years, with reports suggesting that they are going to revolutionise land warfare etc etc, but it appears that the Ukrainians have identified at least one weakness.
Edit: I've just read that Russia only has 40 of these in service in total, so this one loss represents 2.5% of that.
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Post by barbara on May 4, 2022 18:08:42 GMT
I've 'liked' quite a few of your posts lately, but this is utter fantasy. In fairness, I should explain why I said that. Roe v Wade which legalised abortion at a federal level was based on the 14th amendment to the constitution. The decision was based on the understanding that women, as human beings and citizens, should be allowed control over their own bodies. The revised opinion means that in many states are soon as they become pregnant they will merely be regarded as fetus incubators, (and in some states this will be so even if carrying the child risks their life or it is the product of rape or incest). Alito, in his judgement, makes reference to this being 'moral' case, letting the cat out of the bag that the 5 ultra-right wing members of the court (all of whom were specifically selected for their known anti-abortion views) are actually taking a political/religious decision despite 98 pages of covering guff. Hence the 3 Democrat judges will dissent and I wouldn't be surprised if Roberts, the moderate Republican, comes up with a third view. Rulings based the 14th amendment are also the basis for gay marriage, the legality of same sex relations, interracial marriage, women's access to contraception and the like. Following Alito's logic all of that should now be decided at state level and there are many states that would happily ban the lot. Civil Rights is not based on the 14th amendment, so that is a little different, but many Republican states have been successfully eating away at the right of minorities to vote for years and will be emboldened to continue. Incidentally, I note that Danny, in his usual contrarian way, has posted several times that the court got this right. He may care to consider that as a gay man the same people who are keen to deny the humanity of pregnant women would be equally keen to criminalise him too. This argument has been put forward in the US by Democrats and respected pundits so very worrying. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2022 18:31:50 GMT
Corbyn and brexit. I feel that this is something he is unfairly maligned for. During the campaign, he criss-crossed the county campaigning for remain, but...the press and media just weren't interested. On the other hand, Corbyn's much (IMO wrongly) derided "7 out of 10" comment spoke to me, a staunch remainer / rejoiner, basically saying that the EU isn't prefect - and sometimes gets things wrong (just as the UK parliament does), but, we're far better in than out - and that we have so much to lose by leaving. For me - and I'm sure many others, that was bang on the money.
I know we have been through this many times before. I watched the "7 out of 10 comment." Corbyn sat there looking inert, like a desiccated Prof of Sociology discussing an abstruse theory. If that precious hand-wringing was his (and your!) idea of effective campaigning in a YES NO vote, no wonder we lost. He was hopeless and hapless on that occasion. Anyway, he was never committed to to the EU & failed to represent Labour voters who were daft enough to select him: & the riff he voted BREXIT had a ring of truth. I watched Brown give a 5 minute speech at the end of the campaign that had more life that Corbyn's entire contribution. As for the argument the media ignored him: well bl--dy well change yr campaign then &, for example, do what he refused to do -- so fastidious as always -- & appear with the other party leaders etc. All party leaders are selfish but he was the most selfish of the lot: having lost in 2016 & 17 he should have resigned. I didn't vote for Corbyn in the leadership contest in 2015 (my choice was Cooper) & thought the members were mad to choose him. I gave him the benefit of the doubt until 2016. And given his famous "pull" with the young why did he fail to mobilise the young voters who couldn't be bothered to turn out & whose lazy non-voting sealed the deal for Brexit. It's now their problem! So, on balance Robbie, how do you feel he did? |
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Post by robbiealive on May 4, 2022 18:50:54 GMT
Where Have all the ROCs Gone.
Short time Passing.
Where Have all the ROCs Gone,
Short Time Ago.
Where have all the ROCs gone?
The LOCs have bullied them every one.
Oh, When will polls ever Churn
Oh, You LOCs are Awful Stern.
When will you ever learn?
Old ROCS
They've taken umbrage every one.
Old men
They're all in High Dud-ge-on
Etc
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Post by lens on May 4, 2022 19:30:33 GMT
- Hallo Danny mk2.. Tell that to the people who lost perfectly healthy loved ones unexpectedly or the many, many previously young, fit people suffering with long Covid, one of whom is my child's 40 odd year old teacher who is still not back working full time a year after the event.. Then there's an old neighbour of mine in her thirties forced to 'shield' due to diabetes. Well, firstly I disagree strongly with Danny about vaccines - in the whole pandemic then (IMO) they are far and away the most powerful tool that has diminished the effect of the virus. I also disagree with him about lockdowns - IMO they served a useful purpose in stopping the health service getting overwhelmed initially, and delayed many potential cases post vaccinations. But they can't be kept up indefinitely, as China is currently finding. And please, spare me the hand wringing. Every death is a tragedy to the families of those affected, but let's not forget all the people who have died or suffered severe illness due to cancer, heart disease, stroke etc etc. Which at last count was well over 10x as many as died of Covid in the same period. (And most of those in the period before vaccination.) I don't want to diminish the suffering caused by Covid - but please, let's keep a sense of proportion and remember all the deaths unrelated to Covid. A death is a death, and a bereavement is a bereavement, whether due to Covid or something else. "rewards from masks are dwarfed by their disadvantages, inconvenience as well as restricting communication" - Utterly lame.. What you're saying is you're not willing to undergo the slightest sacrifice for greater societal good. In the early stages of the let up in restrictions I found going to the supermarket and noting who was still wearing a mask and who was not was a very handy guide at a glance as to who was thoughtful and considerate and who was selfish and egotistical. No. What I'm saying is that if there was decent evidence that mask wearing in such as supermarkets was effective I'd join in. That evidence simply is not there. You carry on wearing one if you wish - most people seem to now disagree, and if you're labelling such (the large majority) "selfish and egotistical" you're being disparaging to most of the population. |
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Post by mercian on May 4, 2022 19:32:28 GMT
robbiealive Still here mate. I'm not posting much because as per my last, I don't want to intrude on private grief. I suppose I could post my opinion of Corbyn, but that would only succeed in uniting you lot into a screaming mob so I won't bother.
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Post by shevii on May 4, 2022 19:38:46 GMT
A few more calls to come later tonight with Sky promising a Yougov of some sort (9.15 Sky news) and Ben Walker (Britain elects/New statesman) putting his money where his mouth is (that's his quote!).
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Post by shevii on May 4, 2022 19:44:08 GMT
Where Have all the ROCs Gone. Short time Passing. Where Have all the ROCs Gone, Short Time Ago. Where have all the ROCs gone? The LOCs have bullied them every one. Oh, When will polls ever Churn Oh, You LOCs are Awful Stern. When will you ever learn? Old ROCS They've taken umbrage every one. Old men They're all in High Dud-ge-on Etc They went out in the quarter finals. Had a bit of a ding dong today in the semis with hard left trots like me pitted against the centrists but it's a bit irrelevant as whoever wins that is going to get slaughtered by the Nats in the final, although the lad c-a-r-f-r-e-w put up a stern defence today in a friendly against the Nats so he's definitely in the team if we make it that far. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2022 19:55:25 GMT
Robbie, here’s a properly scanning version:
“Why are all the righties wrong?
It’s so puzzling.
And why are all the lefties right?
You know they are.
Why are all the righties wrong?
Total duffers every one.
When will they ever learn?
When will they e-e-ver learn?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2022 19:57:59 GMT
robbiealive Still here mate. I'm not posting much because as per my last, I don't want to intrude on private grief. I suppose I could post my opinion of Corbyn, but that would only succeed in uniting you lot into a screaming mob so I won't bother.  I think that you profoundly overestimate how much of a toss anyone gives about your opinion mercian- no offence intended of course… |
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Post by graham on May 4, 2022 20:06:27 GMT
hireton Well, you can believe that but that's not what your party's policy or statements say.Well you can believe that the SNP played no role, or got no advantage from the election occurring when it did, on the premise that brexit was inevitable anyway, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary and that your party and leader never gets anything wrong.
Well if Labour/Corbyn had actually wanted a GE at that time it would have happened much earlier - but just they didn't. Why would Labour/Corbyn go for an election then when they knew they would lose?
Swinson/Sturgeon made it a self-full filling prophecy that brexit was inevitable when they agreed to a GE - the latter more knowingly as the former was under the delusion that the LDs would win. It is all water under the bridge now , but the 2019 GE was called at almost the last possible moment to enable a poll before 2020. Had the Opposition parties held out for another week no Dissolution would have been likely before mid- January with Polling Day in late February. It is hindsight ,of course, but by that time the dark cloud of Covid was appearing and may well have overridden Brexit as the key issue.That was still a few weeks from Covid becoming the main concern , but I suspect that in the context of an election campaign it would have surfaced rather earlier than it did. |
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Post by steamdrivenandy on May 4, 2022 20:06:41 GMT
Where Have all the ROCs Gone. Short time Passing. Where Have all the ROCs Gone, Short Time Ago. Where have all the ROCs gone? The LOCs have bullied them every one. Oh, When will polls ever Churn Oh, You LOCs are Awful Stern. When will you ever learn? Old ROCS They've taken umbrage every one. Old men They're all in High Dud-ge-on Etc They went out in the quarter finals. Had a bit of a ding dong today in the semis with hard left trots like me pitted against the centrists but it's a bit irrelevant as whoever wins that is going to get slaughtered by the Nats in the final, although the lad c-a-r-f-r-e-w put up a stern defence today in a friendly against the Nats so he's definitely in the team if we make it that far. I thought they'd put Carfrew out on loan 'til the end of the season. Oh! That's next week. |
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Post by thylacine on May 4, 2022 20:10:27 GMT
robbiealive Still here mate. I'm not posting much because as per my last, I don't want to intrude on private grief. I suppose I could post my opinion of Corbyn, but that would only succeed in uniting you lot into a screaming mob so I won't bother. Maybe you could toss in a grenade, outrageous comment about Corbyn, Blair or Starmer and sit back and enjoy the show with a family size pack of cheese and onion. I seriously doubt you'll unite us. When did you last manage to walk on water? 😂 |
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