Danny
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Post by Danny on Dec 9, 2021 8:18:11 GMT
Danny No that isn't how the UK system works. Police detention is normally hours not days. The decision to remand in custody pending trial is the courts not the police based on recommendations from the crown prosecution service. Arguably many so remanded are because of lack of funds or permanent address which is unacceptable. Many thousands dealt with eventually by custodial sentence shouldn't have received a custodial term in the first place. The delays in a trial are primarily down to inadequate funding for services by the UK government and substantial cuts in provision. My mistake. When I said 'they' lock you up without trial I didnt mean just the police arm of the system. Its rather academic to the citizen which government enforcement agency puts them under punishment without trial. Punishment here would also include use of tagging and rstrictions on movement or anything else until a trial finaly takes place maybe years later.
Twat of a government minister trying to deny that unless there was an actual party, there was no reason whatsoever for Allegra Stratton to resign over a bit of banter during a rehersal. Why cant these idiots be honest? (OK, if Johnson and the cabinet all went to the party, even if he complained about the noise and asked what was going on, then I get why they are desperatey lying).
They are starting to look like fools repeatedly saying very stupid things in interviews.
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Post by moby on Dec 9, 2021 8:35:04 GMT
Danny No that isn't how the UK system works. Police detention is normally hours not days. The decision to remand in custody pending trial is the courts not the police based on recommendations from the crown prosecution service. Arguably many so remanded are because of lack of funds or permanent address which is unacceptable. Many thousands dealt with eventually by custodial sentence shouldn't have received a custodial term in the first place. The delays in a trial are primarily down to inadequate funding for services by the UK government and substantial cuts in provision. My mistake. When I said 'they' lock you up without trial I didnt mean just the police arm of the system. Its rather academic to the citizen which government enforcement agency puts them under punishment without trial. Punishment here would also include use of tagging and rstrictions on movement or anything else until a trial finaly takes place maybe years later.
Twat of a government minister trying to deny that unless there was an actual party, there was no reason whatsoever for Allegra Stratton to resign over a bit of banter during a rehersal. Why cant these idiots be honest? (OK, if Johnson and the cabinet all went to the party, even if he complained about the noise and asked what was going on, then I get why they are desperatey lying).
They are starting to look like fools repeatedly saying very stupid things in interviews.
I note Sajid Javid refused to state his source for reassurance that 'all rules were followed' in his R4 interview. Probably the Govmt already know Simon Case's enquiry will end with 'nothing to see here' and if there is a price to pay, it will those far down the chain and those at the top had no idea what was going on. In fact I could save a lot of wasted time and write Case's report for him now. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Dec 9, 2021 8:35:05 GMT
Bantams, dont know where he gets his info(though he mentions sources in the vids), but Dr John Campell has been publishing videos about the epidemic throughout and they have quite a following now. Someone posted one on the covid thread, but obviously you missed it as it wasnt mentioned here. www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Paq17X6ucQCampbell’s quite big on Vitamin D too, IIRC? yes Carfrew, I noticed he has a bottle of it prominently in all of his videos. But I still maintain the fall in immunity which happens when sun levels fall in winter is not a flaw in our immune system but a deliberate design feature. So we catch any infections going at the most convenient time of year to do so, when we are all huddling indoors anyway. We have to be reinfected by established diseases regularly to adapt our immunity to any changes the pathogen has made...before it can make enough changes to become seriously dangerous. Doing this on an annual cycle triggered by the seasons has probably worked out about right. If it hadnt been about the right clock length then we would have chosen something else. In fact we do use other clocks too- we drop antibody levels after a few months. |
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 9, 2021 8:36:28 GMT
Are you sure you don’t mean Crossbat, EOR or Oldnat? They were the ones talking about the West Midlands? (Though of course I agree that West Mercia is to be preferred!) Dyslexia Rools KO I knew the name began with 'C'. It was, of course CB, not CF. It were early no probs SDA, though worth being aware that while both of us might be West Mercian, Crossbat is a Pear while I am a Bear |
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 9, 2021 8:38:43 GMT
Campbell’s quite big on Vitamin D too, IIRC? yes Carfrew, I noticed he has a bottle of it prominently in all of his videos. But I still maintain the fall in immunity which happens when sun levels fall in winter is not a flaw in our immune system but a deliberate design feature. Indeed that is one of your more intriguing ideas Danny. No idea if it’s the case or not, but like it all the same. |
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Post by bardin1 on Dec 9, 2021 8:44:13 GMT
Old nat. Of course some of the leading proponents of "English" aggressive imperialism around the world were Scottish. Scots proved particularly adept at the slave trade and killing indigenous peoples throughout the world and bringing the enlightenment of religious bigotry to countries with their own alternatives and didn't request our version. That isn't also to say their more positive contribution in terms of education, construction science and technology wasn't also substantial along with the millions of people who can claim Scottish ancestry in former colonial countries. That's undeniable Steve - we were to the forefront of imperialism, and our particular brand of calvinism was one of the tools of those who went forth to 'make Britain Great' and the world in our image. The fantastic poem/ song Freedom Come-All-Ye by Hamish Henderson contains the following poignant and thoughtful lines on the subject (the braggarts being of course politicians of all complexions). Broken families in lands we've harried will curse Scotland the Brave no more [when we have embraced freedom for everyone, not capitalist imperialist hegemony] Nae mair will the bonnie callants Mairch tae war when oor braggarts crousely craw, Nor wee weans frae pit-heid and clachan Mourn the ships sailin’ doon the Broomielaw. Broken faimlies in lands we’ve herriet, Will curse Scotland the Brave nae mair, nae mair; Black and white, ane til ither mairriet, Mak the vile barracks o’ their maisters bare. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 9, 2021 8:46:54 GMT
Danny
I am not so sure about your deprivation of liberty point.
If for example someone was alleged to be a night time burglar they might well find themselves remanded in custody pending trial.
An electronic tag alternative so you know where they are at night would in such circumstances be a retention of liberty all be it a prescribed exercise of it.
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 9, 2021 8:52:31 GMT
My major issue with the penal system in the UK was always inappropriate and excessive use of custodial sanctions.
For example if someone were handed a fine at court but because it exceeded their ability to pay for what ever reason either in full or by regular deduction then the normal response to failure was a custodial sentence.
Given that a custodial sentence wasn't considered a remedy in the first place i t doesn't become appropriate if the wrong non custodial disposal was issued in the first place.
There are thousands of people in prison who shouldn't be there precisely because of this.
Similarly no one should be remanded in custody pending trial when the likely sanction on conviction is a non custodial sentence.
And yet hundreds of people are on remand in precisely such circumstances.
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Post by alec on Dec 9, 2021 9:01:32 GMT
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Post by tancred on Dec 9, 2021 9:14:18 GMT
My major issue with the penal system in the UK was always inappropriate and excessive use of custodial sanctions. For example if someone were handed a fine at court but because it exceeded their ability to pay for what ever reason either in full or by regular deduction then the normal response to failure was a custodial sentence. Given that a custodial sentence wasn't considered a remedy in the first place it doesn't become appropriate if the wrong non custodial disposal was issued in the first place. There are thousands of people in prison who shouldn't be there precisely because of this. Similarly no one should be remanded in custody pending trial when the likely sanction on conviction is a non custodial sentence. And yet hundreds of people are on remand in precisely such circumstances. I agree. Many people in prison are there not for violent offences but for financial crimes of one kind or another. I find this astonishing - what on earth is the point of this? Surely those guilty of not paying fines or taxes etc can be punished by other means e.g. community service. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 9, 2021 9:14:35 GMT
Bardin
This old Londoner Had to call on my Inner Hebrides ancestry to work that out.
Take a butchers at this me old Chinas.
Slip ya Plates o' Meat into ya Jacks,
brew up a nice cup o' Rosy,
and if you haven't got a ****** what I'm on about,
feel free to fire me off a Jimmy Nail
and tell me it's a load of old cobblers.
Can you Adam an' Eve it,
I left me Dog 'n' Bone on the Apples
and when I went to call the Trouble 'n' Strife
some joker had Half-Inched it.
But that's not the worst of it.
When I got back to the Cat and Mouse
she'd done a bunk in me shiny new Jam Jar.
I couldn't believe me Pork Pies!
So here I am all on me Todd,
me only transport a ****** old **** van ****.
Gordon Bennett!
I'm goin' down the ****** for a few Britneys,
gonna get totally Brahms and List
and blow a big fat raspberry at the whole thing.
Tomorrow's another bale 'o' hay.
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Post by jimjam on Dec 9, 2021 9:15:38 GMT
Re West Midlands cross break.
We all know that those number are, if not meaningless, very tenuous.
However, whilst I don't want to start a new Brexit impact debate the numbers out a couple of weeks ago on the economic impact by region thus far showed the West Midlands as being the hardest hit.
It would not be a surprise, therefore, if The polling numbers reflected this; albeit by only 2-3% more than the GB wide numbers (E&W if more such polls carried out) rather rather than those unrealistic ones extracted from the latest R&W.
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 9, 2021 9:15:55 GMT
Tancred
You might be surprised at the number of police officers who would agree.
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 9, 2021 9:16:24 GMT
“An electronic tag alternative so you know where they are at night would in such circumstances be a retention of liberty all be it a prescribed exercise of it.” they could do that for some of the people in government to be sure if they went to a party or not. |
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Dec 9, 2021 9:17:47 GMT
Dyslexia Rools KO I knew the name began with 'C'. It was, of course CB, not CF. It were early no probs SDA, though worth being aware that while both of us might be West Mercian, Crossbat is a Pear while I am a Bear Sorry, the latter point has lost me? |
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Post by wb61 on Dec 9, 2021 9:18:04 GMT
The Bail Act 1976:
Section 4 General right to bail of accused persons and others.
(1)A person to whom this section applies shall be granted bail except as provided in Schedule 1 to this Act.
The Bail Act's aims were reducing the size of the inmate population. It eliminated personal recognisances replacing them with an offence of failing to surrender to custody; it introduced a presumption that bail will be granted to all unconvicted defendants in criminal proceedings. This presumption also covered convicted persons brought before a magistrate's court for a breach of a probation or community service order and those whose cases are adjourned for reports. The Act states that all defendants will be granted bail, even those charged with an imprisonable offence, unless there are substantial grounds to support a belief that the defendant on bail would not surrender to custody, would commit an offence while on bail, or would interfere with witnesses or otherwise obstruct the course of justice; unless the defendant must be detained for his own welfare or protection; or in other circumstances. The grounds for refusing bail to defendants charged with non-imprisonable offences are more limited. Other aspects of the legislation involve bail conditions, bail with sureties, failing to surrender, police bail, and legal aid.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2021 9:20:21 GMT
I did Carfrew. Damning and depressing Indeed. It’s a bit frightening how few scientists in government, and all the inertia, the focus on avoiding blame, promoting the wrong people, but this has a certain inevitability about it unless things are put in place to stop it happening. Happened in education too, and the arts as I discovered. I saw lots of talented people getting sidelined, or worse. But the way things are now, the pace of change and the difficulty of the problems means this is going to be more and more of an issue and a lot of the people Bingham is on about need to be bypassed really. Yes I agree. John Reed explained it succinctly. 15 years ago ! |
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Post by shevii on Dec 9, 2021 9:33:32 GMT
On the issue of whether people should resign/be sacked for attending the party... there's another potential complication that could make this aspect very messy, apart from the Crown property angle that's been discussed already. This might sound fatuous but please read it through before deriding the relevance in terms of how things will go. The distinction of what constitutes a party is potentially a lot harder to nail down in a central London office than it is pretty much anywhere else in England, at least to the satisfaction of an employment tribunal. For a whole array of London people I know, drinks in the office at the end of the week is a thing that just happens from time to time - the director lays on a few bottles of champagne for the team for a valuable account landed, a client sends crates of beer as thanks for a successful project go-live. Often this kind of thing is either ad hoc around people's desks or sent by management in a "please come to the Conference Room at 4pm" email invite. No-one drives to work so it's an option that consistently exists in a way it doesn't elsewhere. I'm not trying to say this should change our perception of what is assumed to have happened, I don't think it does. But I think it potentially changes the legal situation and thus the freedom to act to deal with the situation. If someone travels to location x purely to attend a party, that would seem a very clear breach of COVID rules. If they're sitting at their desk working and gradually a bunch of drinks and food get passed around and they have some, no chance can you fire them for breaching COVID rules. So in terms of what happens to people who did attend, key factors are going to be exactly where this happened, how they were told about it, whether such things were particularly unusual, whether they felt they were invited socially or being asked to attend as part of their job... it might all turn out to have the simplicity that the vengeful would like but my suspicion is it probably won't! You make fair points, although this is less about any legalities as it is about how the public see this and what this means for a politician's career who attended. But my presumption of guilty until proved innocent is that this story has been building up for some time now and it doesn't take an enquiry for the basic facts to be presented by a government spokesperson or by Johnson himself. So if it was an after work thing where it slipped from discussing government business into a few drinks and nibbles and then gradually got out of hand after someone suggested they put the birdie song on and then someone else said put it on a bit louder, they could have said this. To me the fact that they have not clarified anything in any way and seem exceptionally cautious about making any public statements about what went on can only be down to not wanting to put your foot in it with a lie that may come to light in the future such as the party being pre-arranged with email invites. |
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 9, 2021 9:35:47 GMT
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Dec 9, 2021 9:36:02 GMT
A tale of inappropriate punishment.
Back in '92 we moved house.
As we were unloading the removal van at the new property a gentleman appeared, identified himself as the local Midland Bank branch manager and broke the news that we hadn't been able to complete on the purchase because our solicitor had gone bust. Apparently he had been using client's funds to keep afloat and several completions on the same day left him short. The bank manager was involved because I worked for Access credit card and had a bank staff mortgage. Also the bank branch had failed to conduct an appropriate credit review on the solicitor, who also banked with them. Quite why the previous owners of our new house handed over the keys and let us move in I've never understood, but we did and the Law Society appointed another solicitor who sorted the purchase out the next working day. TIP - never complete on a house move on a Friday, as the world shuts over the weekend and if there's a hitch it won't get looked at'til Monday.
However it turned out that, unbeknown to us, our solicitor had been disciplined by the Law Society a year or so before for using client's funds inappropriately. But what did they do to a solicitor who was in obvious financial difficulty? They fined him!!!!!!!!
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 9, 2021 9:40:16 GMT
Indeed. It’s a bit frightening how few scientists in government, and all the inertia, the focus on avoiding blame, promoting the wrong people, but this has a certain inevitability about it unless things are put in place to stop it happening. Happened in education too, and the arts as I discovered. I saw lots of talented people getting sidelined, or worse. But the way things are now, the pace of change and the difficulty of the problems means this is going to be more and more of an issue and a lot of the people Bingham is on about need to be bypassed really. Yes I agree. John Reed explained it succinctly. 15 years ago ! Just watched him talking about it. www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-15786213he says that it was a civil servant who said it! |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Dec 9, 2021 9:49:58 GMT
When it rains it pours
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Dec 9, 2021 9:56:30 GMT
Well, I'm living in a knot, having moved from a white rose. Prior to that a resident of a watery deer and an Eagle for a while, though born and bought up under the Seaxes. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Dec 9, 2021 9:57:01 GMT
Rumours that the recess will be brought forward by two days next week to Tuesday, which would of course be convenient as it would avoid another PMQ's
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2021 9:57:48 GMT
c-a-r-f-r-e-wI don't think it will ever change. That Establishment is actually more powerful than its Political Bosses. And of course the latter come and go like ships in the night. They simply don't have time to get to grips with the built in inertia and resistance to change. Watch Sir Philip Robert Barton KCMG OBE before the foreign affairs committee the other day to see The Blob in operation
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Post by John Chanin on Dec 9, 2021 10:14:00 GMT
That’s a fantastic clip (10 years ago but still relevant). Reid was very good. |
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Post by wb61 on Dec 9, 2021 10:14:45 GMT
It never rains but it pours: Electoral Commission fines Conservative Party in respect of reporting the donation that helped pay for refurbishment of number 11 (PM's flat).
But finally some good news for PM (I presume): Carrie Johnson gives birth to a healthy baby girl.
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 9, 2021 10:19:12 GMT
Congratulations to the future ex Mrs Johnson on the birth of a baby girl.
Given the circumstances she and her corrupt narcissistic incompetent dissembling spouse find themselves in might I suggest calling it Pandora
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Post by John Chanin on Dec 9, 2021 10:20:24 GMT
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Dec 9, 2021 10:25:08 GMT
Something they seem to miss although they allude to it, is viruses swapping repeatedly back and forth between species. The consequence of this will be that even though they may have adapted to their current host they will still have a legacy of adaptations which work with other species. Over time this would probably evolve the best alternatives which work universally amongst all available host species. Survival will depend on the ability to swap species.
So i think they probably exaggerate the importance of a period of adaptation to a new species. We know human covid can switch to other animals. Felines and dogs have been mentioned but other zoo and farm animals have been found infected.
It may be just as likely that a virus waits in an animal population until the human one (or other different) ceases to have immunity to it. hence it can switch back to humans. I expect covid has had a long history in the past of infecting humans again and again. Humans had immunity to covid in the form of measurable antibodies and t cells active against covid before it ever arrived. This was most likely formed against other corona virses, but it would have acted to prevent covid reinfecting humans until a low enough point in immunty arose.
i see the article suggests the OC43 corona virus which currently circulates causing colds may have been responsible for a flu epidemic starting in 1890 which killed the heir to the british throne. That might have been an interesting counter factual history with a very gay monarch.
It is likely the current fear of diseases moving into humans from other species is overlooking this important fact, that we have already met many times in the past. We too have evolved ready to meet them again. Covid was a case where the human immune system successfully met and defeated a threat. Only old or sick people would have died absent any intervention. A stonking success in evolutionary terms.
The fact these past successful corona viruses are deliberately kept in circulation by our immune systems (whch deliberately allow repeat infections) afford us protection not only against them but also against their cousins like covid seeking to cross back into humans.
The article also makes some errors in reasoning over evolution, because it is a game of big numbers and small advantages coming to the fore through sheer statistical certainty from a tiny edge. It dismisses the idea a tiny advantage might be important given anther big one but actually every slight advantage will come to dominate the dominant strain very quickly in human timescales, though that is over many many lifetimes on a viral timescale. Thus if there is even a slight advantage to not killing your host, that trait will come to dominate. However, because it is a statistical thing with big numbers of trials, minor exceptions dont matter. Old or sick humans with weak immune systems are outliers to the main epidemic and will not contribute much to evolution of the main strain. So virulence will be tailored to not killing a typical human, not to not killing an already weak and sick human.
These are two distinct groups. The way to protect the weak and sick has always been for the healthy to be infeced fast and therefore drop prevalence very low. That is how our natural immunty works to protect those weak and sick. They stay home and isolate while the mainstream get the disease over. We have always made use of this to save lives, but this time governments chose to prevent this happening.
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