8-Jan-2022 : LAB: 39 / CON: 34 / LDEM: 11 / GRN: 5

[Danny]

Jan 14, 2022 9:57:22 GMT barbara said:

The difference between the two is that Johnson behaved entirely according to his own advancement. Corbyn behaved entirely according to his principles ( however misguided). That is why Corbyn spend 30 odd years on the back benches

i fear you are exactly right, and thats why so many people disapprove of politicians.

Jan 14, 2022 16:21:53 GMT turk said:

100,000 Russian troops poised on Ukraine border, massive cyber attack ,possible preclude to hostilities.Poland warns of war, still at least they wasn’t partying that would be serious.

And thats why it makes sense to exclude crown activities from covid legislation. But it looks bad if they use the exemptions for parties.

[crossbat11]

Crikey, even in the Tory shire of Worcestershire things are on the slide: -


The Littletons (Wychavon) council by-election result:



GRN: 39.1% (-6.3)

CON: 36.8% (-17.8)

LDEM: 24.1% (+24.1)



Votes cast: 744



Green GAIN from Conservative.

Yes, before someone steps in, I know, a derisory low turn out council by-election is a harbinger of nothing very much but, in these parts, a non-Tory councillor is a rarity. Lib Dem surge lets the Green in. Tory votes going to Lib Dems. Labour candidate still in the fridge, I think.

[crossbat11]

Drat. Should have skimmed the thread before posting above. The jungle drums from yonder Littletons beat louder to NeilJ's door than mine, obviously!!

I see Robert's attempts to defend the partying at No 10 were so without merit that not even Colin liked them!

Colin "likes" are the litmus test for ROC contributions on here, I think. If Turk, Robert or TW doesn't get one from him, then they're clearly off the scale in terms of silliness.

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2022 17:44:04 GMT crossbat11 said:

Drat. Should have skimmed the thread before posting above. The jungle drums from yonder Littletons beat louder to NeilJ's door than mine, obviously!!

I see Robert's attempts to defend the partying at No 10 were so without merit that not even Colin liked them!

Colin "likes" are the litmus test for ROC contributions on here, I think. If Turk, Robert or TW doesn't get one from him, then they're clearly off the scale in terms of silliness.

Or they have seen the light and become Corbyn supporters...

[moby]

[Deleted]

Have just been prescribed anti-biotics and penicillin for my chest infection.. fingers crossed

Never been so sort of unwell for so long - back to November I think and I’m absolutely fed up with coughing; but it is so hard to see GPS now or even get a telephone consultation.

(Will post further health bulletins on the new “How healthy are you?” thread.)

[jimjam]

I hope we don't drive away the remaining openly ROC posters.

[neilj]

Looks like an upcoming poll, maybe a hint that it is not good news for the Tories here 😀

[alec]

It really does have that late 80s/early 90s feel that we are back to the era of the Conservative leadership and the little people (everyone else). Back then it was Jonathon Aitken and Jeffrey Archer as the posh Tories who could lie in court and get away with it because they were decent types, now it seems anyone attached to No 10 has the right to ignore whatever rules they don't feel apply to them and then lie to parliament.

Some interesting points on R4 PM today though. It was pointed out that in large part, Johnson's success has been down to his ability to present himself as new, dissociating himself from the previous decade of Conservative rule. This makes sense. My observation was that this wasn't just because of timings, but also heavily due to Brexit. The marked change of approach to Brexit and internal party battle provided a bookend to the pre Johnson era and installed Johnson as someone new and different in the publics mind.

As time goes on, it gets harder to present the incumbent as the insurgent, but the twin impact of the sleaze and scandals, along with the descent of Brexit into what is increasingly seen as a failure, mean that Johnson - and whoever follows - will increasingly have to carry all the baggage of the years since 2010.

The only thing left for them is covid. It is a genuine excuse for much else that they won't deliver. If the money is blown on the worst public health crisis for a century, then they have far less latitude for any other major policies. The unkind would say that such is their incompetence, they have also benefited from having to focus on covid, rather than expose their ineptitude trying to do all the normal stuff.

Conservatives might be able to make a case that everything was knocked off course by covid, but the unique effect of Brexit looms over that, along with the bigger issue of credibility. If people believe you, they can accept the most outlandish excuses, but if you have publicly burned your credibility, even a genuine reason for failures that was largely out of your control will be viewed harshly by voters, with the ever helpful 'time for a change' mantra getting a timely dusting down.

This, for me, is what we should be watching for. Johnson seems a busted flush, with no one believing him anymore, and his credibility shot through. The question will be whether yet another Tory leader can rescue the parties credibility after 12 years of failure. Given the lack of quality behind Johnson, I think that's a big ask.

[neilj]

Very clear advice here about not being allowed parties at work during the covid restrictions

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2022 18:09:35 GMT jimjam said:

I hope we don't drive away the remaining openly ROC posters.

Indeed - we need David Attenborough to get stuck in on their behalf.

tbh there are many Tories (MPs etc) who I have had a lot of admiration for, including Ted Heath, John Major, Ken Clarke, Michael Heseltine (thought  he would have made a very interesting PM*) Plus, some of Theresa May’s cabinet and MPs who were booted out or left. But it very hard to like much of what we are seeing recently from this government.

*My brother met him at his home on a tour of his estate, garden etc and said he came over as very nice, slightly shy man - though ‘shy’ certainly wasn’t his campaigning image.

His Labour Party on the March joke with the “left, left, left” remarks was genuinely funny I thought.

[barbara]

Jan 14, 2022 18:24:41 GMT @crofty said:

Jan 14, 2022 18:09:35 GMT jimjam said:

I hope we don't drive away the remaining openly ROC posters.

Indeed - we need David Attenborough to get stuck in on their behalf.

tbh there are many Tories (MPs etc) who I have had a lot of admiration for, including Ted Heath, John Major, Ken Clarke, Michael Heseltine (thought  he would have made a very interesting PM*) Plus, some of Theresa May’s cabinet and MPs who were booted out or left. But it very hard to like much of what we are seeing recently from this government.

*My brother met him at his home on a tour of his estate, garden etc and said he came over as very nice, slightly shy man - though ‘shy’ certainly wasn’t his campaigning image.

His Labour Party on the March joke with the “left, left, left” remarks was genuinely funny I thought.

I think that's part of the problem with the current Conservative Party. I've known plenty of Conservatives with whom  I can find common ground. There were plenty of Conservative MPs with whom I could find common ground. The problem is the rise of the ERG and their uncompromising hatred of anybody who didn't share their ideological view of the world drove many one nation traditional conservatives away from the party. Boris's purges of 2019 removed the rest. So what we are left with is a combination of Ukippers masquerading as Tories and the rest too intimidated to put any brake on the madness.
Once Johnson is gone it will take at least 5 years for the Tory party to regroup and become once more a viable party that represents the vast majority of centre right voters. 
I was talking to a conservative party member friend of mine  back in October and he was gloating about the bad impression left by Angela Rayner's "scum" remark and talking about the 'basket case' Labour Party. I cautioned him then, saying the LP had their implosion back in January 2020 and are now well on the way to regrouping and rehabilitation but that his party still had that all to come to them. And here it is. It's interesting that on the several occasions we have met since he has studiously avoided any discussion of politics and as he is a friend I have studiously avoided rubbing his nose in it.

[lululemonmustdobetter]

Jan 14, 2022 18:09:35 GMT jimjam said:

I hope we don't drive away the remaining openly ROC posters.

Well to be honest most of them seem to want to see the back of Johnson as well. Those of us (right as well as left) who have always been detractors of Johnson feel vindicated. I'm sure many Tory MPs are going to have an interesting time back in their constituencies this weekend.

[mandolinist]

Crofty, you old guitarist, I am on anti-biotics as well.....dental emergency for me. Puts paid to rehearsals for me tomorrow. Now where is that old codgers health thread when you need it?

[neilj]

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2022 17:22:45 GMT manlad said:

Jan 14, 2022 15:16:04 GMT @laszlo said:

Kant is certainly a rationalist. While he blended rationalism and empiricism this does not undermine his rationalist credentials. Admittedly, I have little time for Kant in this field and find Hume to be the far greater moral philosopher. I haven't found any arguments within Kant's moral philosophy that can't be fairly easily refuted by Hume and Kant himself credits the great Scotsman for awakening him from his "dogmatic slumber". 

It is regrettable that Hutcheson is seen as a forefather of utilitarianism as his work needn't be interpreted that way though it is undeniable that Bentham, Mill and Sidgwick (among many others) built upon Hutcheson's ideas. 

My very last on the subject, but as the discussion was very meaningful, I make a couple of additions.

I do like those history of philosophy concepts that call Shaftesbury and Hutcheson sentimentalists as it separates them from the utilitarian lot.

I also think we have three major branches here within the same broad discipline that tries to handle the subjectivist and objectivist approaches to moral: the sentimentalists above, Hume, who is quite eclectic on this and the moral question are on the periphery of his work, and Adam Smith (Hutcheson's student) who attempted to create a kind of dialectic relationship between objective and subjective moral - it is really unfair what is known and taught about him in the modern times.

[mandolinist]

Wow, does that Savanta Com Res make three in a row? I am surprised that the LD's haven't had a bit of a bounce.

[oldnat]

There has been some discussion of the best tactics for Conservatives in Scotland - stick with the 1965 merger into the UK Conservative and Unionist Party, or re-form a separate Scottish party for centre-right Unionists.

I previously mentioned the close nature of this debate within the Scots Tories which was a dominant feature of their 2011 leadership election. Now we have been reminded that the current SoS for S, Alastair Jack, was a keen supporter of the idea and offered to make a significant contribution to its funding.

www.thenational.scot/news/19847751.alister-jack-backed-independent-scots-tory-party-offered-significant-sums/

With all 31 Scots Tory MSPs now backing Ross's call for Johnson to resign, I would be unsurprised to see the fallout from "Partygate" resulting in the demise of the current UK C&U party. Any MPs from a separate Scottish Tory Party would continue to take the Tory whip at Westminster, just as the previous Scottish Unionist Party MPs did, but would be likely to be less compliant than under the current system.

Something to keep an eye on, I suspect - especially if Johnson survives or the ERG continue to be dominant among Tory MPs even with a new UK leader.

[jib]

@crofty

"tbh there are many Tories (MPs etc) who I have had a lot of admiration for, including Ted Heath, John Major, Ken Clarke, Michael Heseltine (thought he would have made a very interesting PM*) Plus, some of Theresa May’s cabinet and MPs who were booted out or left. But it very hard to like much of what we are seeing recently from this government."

Indeed. Heseltine could have been a genuinely progressive ROC PM.

We all knew what Johnson was. It will all end in tears and disgrace, a man who believes that the normal rules are for everyone but him.

[oldnat]

[crossbat11]

Jan 14, 2022 18:50:28 GMT lululemonmustdobetter said:

Jan 14, 2022 18:09:35 GMT jimjam said:

I hope we don't drive away the remaining openly ROC posters.

Well to be honest most of them seem to want to see the back of Johnson as well. Those of us (right as well as left) who have always been detractors of Johnson feel vindicated. I'm sure many Tory MPs are going to have an interesting time back in their constituencies this weekend.

What's all this nonsense about driving ROC posters away? They love the cut and thrust as much as the rest of us. Most dish it out and take it as well. There's leg pulling, the odd bit of irrascibility, almost constant disagreement and, most of the time, no genuine malice at all.

How bland, tedious and simpering do we really want this place to be, anyway?

I look forward to Turk letting me have it with both barrels as I do to Colin telling me I'm a latte-sipping , tribal class warrior. Robert does both and Mercian is a good leg puller too.

One of my favourite old ROC posters was Hugo and I used to love battling with Roland Haines, the Chou en Lai of Sapperdom.

Neil A was a problem though. He often argued the pants out of me.

Let the site be and let it breathe naturally. Bad times for the Tories now but politics is nothing if not quixotic and volatile. Who knows who may feel besieged in 6 months time?

[barbara]

Sorry for the long paste here. From the Guardian Live blog:

The Independent’s Anna Isaac has a quite remarkable, if unsurprising, story this evening about Boris Johnson drawing up a list of officials to offer resignations in a bid to save his prime ministership. The prime minister himself has reportedly dubbed the plan – and this isn’t a joke – “Operation Save Big Dog”.

The plan is being devised to limit the damage caused by the much-anticipated Sue Gray report, which is expected to be published next week.

It is understood that Dan Rosenfield, Boris Johnson’s chief of staff, and Martin Reynolds, his private secretary and author of the 20 May party invite email, are being considered as possible sacrificial lambs, so to speak.

The Independent reports:

While putting names to the plan is a matter of hot debate, a more broadly accepted idea is that at least one senior political appointee and a senior official must be seen to leave Downing Street over the affair, as both groups share blame, two Whitehall sources said.

A former Tory cabinet minister told the Independent that, although they backed Mr Johnson, they believed a “root and branch” overhaul of No 10 and parts of the Cabinet Office would prove essential to move on from partygate. It would be a “bare minimum to translate contrition into action”, they said.

The “save big dog” plan includes a communications “grid” in the lead up to the investigation’s conclusion and beyond. This comprises lines for supportive ministers to take in press interviews, emphasising a contrite prime minister and listing his achievements amid the difficult choices posed by the pandemic.

This seems only what we have come to expect from Johnson. Throw any and everybody under the bus to save himself.  Very reminiscent of "Operation Last Gasp" Everything's a joke to him.

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2022 19:11:34 GMT mandolinist said:

Wow, does that Savanta Com Res make three in a row? I am surprised that the LD's haven't had a bit of a bounce.

Or a “boonce “ as they say in Geordieland.

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2022 19:02:59 GMT mandolinist said:

Crofty, you old guitarist, I am on anti-biotics as well.....dental emergency for me. Puts paid to rehearsals for me tomorrow. Now where is that old codgers health thread when you need it?

At least you don’t play woodwind.Clarinet would really be painful (I’m not a big fan anyway - hated teaching that, plus oboe and bassoon.Didn’t mind sax but flute was my passion for many years.)

[statgeek]

Per someone else's mention earlier - www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/operation-save-big-dog-boris-johnson-draws-up-plan-for-officials-to-quit-over-partygate-so-he-can-keep-job/ar-AASMTF4

Boris Johnson is drawing up a list of officials to offer resignations over partygate in a bid to salvage his premiership, The Independent has learned.


Dubbed “Operation Save Big Dog” by the prime minister himself, the blueprint includes a drive to work out which heads should roll following the publication of senior official Sue Gray’s findings, as well as highlighting the prime minister’s achievements, according to sources.

Just wow!

[Old Southendian]

Jan 14, 2022 19:25:39 GMT barbara said:

The “save big dog” plan includes a communications “grid” in the lead up to the investigation’s conclusion and beyond. This comprises lines for supportive ministers to take in press interviews, emphasising a contrite prime minister and listing his achievements amid the difficult choices posed by the pandemic.

This seems only what we have come to expect from Johnson. Throw any and everybody under the bus to save himself.  Very reminiscent of "Operation Last Gasp" Everything's a joke to him.

Just think what they could achieve if they put this sort of effort into running the country.

[John Chanin]

I think I will make a comment about the sheer insouciance with which elements of the government treated their own coronavirus restrictions. The point seems to be both that they didn’t believe in the restrictions, and, importantly, they didn’t expect the public to adhere to them. They imposed the 2020 lockdown because the public health people left them with no choice, and every other country was doing the same. It was I suggest a matter of great surprise to them that in fact the British public complied almost completely with the initial lockdown, although they didn’t.

The position last winter wasn’t quite the same. Many young people had now absorbed that they were at little risk, and despite the relaxation during the summer, there was more fatigue with restrictions. Still people on the whole complied,although not as strictly as Spring 2020. And the government and the Conservative Party as we have seen didn’t comply at all. In early 2020 even the libertarians were reluctant to publicly rebel. By the winter they had no intention of complying with restrictions that again had been forced on them by public health and public opinion. You see now the argument that “no-one complied with the restrictions” which is patently untrue. It’s just that none of them complied, and by extension none of the people they knew.

So actually I think it was more ideological than entitlement, although it’s the latter that really really incenses people.

And people over 70 who are genuinely at risk are particularly pissed off, and since they are the rock on which Conservative support is based, it’s very dangerous for them, quite apart from the number of supporters who have died - all the media continues to downplay the higher death rates here compared to elsewhere in Europe, and what seems to be an awful lot of post-viral complications.

There are clearly tough times ahead for the government. The EU is no longer an issue (although some Conservatives are still trying desperately to make it one). We have left. Economic problems are growing and are on the government’s watch. The party issue, although trivial in itself, has collapsed confidence. Sacking Johnson, although essential, won’t solve the problem. At least politics will be interesting for the next 12 months.

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2022 19:27:36 GMT @crofty said:

Jan 14, 2022 19:11:34 GMT mandolinist said:

Wow, does that Savanta Com Res make three in a row? I am surprised that the LD's haven't had a bit of a bounce.

Or a “boonce “ as they say in Geordieland.

As in “Haway man Crofty, boonce us the bahl bonny lad an’ ah’ll stot it reet in the cornah of yon ongyun bag, nay bothah.”

[John Chanin]

Jan 14, 2022 19:35:01 GMT Old Southendian said:

Jan 14, 2022 19:25:39 GMT barbara said:

The “save big dog” plan includes a communications “grid” in the lead up to the investigation’s conclusion and beyond. This comprises lines for supportive ministers to take in press interviews, emphasising a contrite prime minister and listing his achievements amid the difficult choices posed by the pandemic.

This seems only what we have come to expect from Johnson. Throw any and everybody under the bus to save himself.  Very reminiscent of "Operation Last Gasp" Everything's a joke to him.

Just think what they could achieve if they put this sort of effort into running the country.

I have a grudging respect for Dominic Cummings whose focus on good government and how to get things done was admirable, even if what he wanted to do didn’t always meet with my approval. This comment is very Cummings like - you need to put your effort into the right things.

[lululemonmustdobetter]

crossbat11

What's all this nonsense about driving ROC posters away?

Sos, I think we all need to 'hug a ROC' today - poor things!😉