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Post by guymonde on Feb 6, 2022 16:18:17 GMT
davwel As a frequenter of walks in Wytham wood I’m pretty sure the pronunciation is ‘Whytam’. The ‘ham’ suffix is an element of it’s own (meaning village, community as is well known) so it stands to reason it won’t be blended into the pronunciation of the stem of the place name. The thing I got wrong in my original post was that while I've heard many a radio presenter call the place "With-am" and it should be "Wit-ham", most locals actually pronounce it "Witum" these days. When I was young you still sometimes heard the old rural Essex accident, which was soft and more like what you hear further north in East Anglia, but that has almost entirely been replaced by the harsher 'estuary English', heavily influenced by all the Londoners who were moved into the Essex New Towns after the war. And just to clarity Witham is not my town, although not too far away. Surely the Estuarian translation is Wi'um? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2022 16:29:12 GMT
nickp "You've got to be fit for this game."Beat you on one leg, Nicky boy!  How many legs are there? No offence but it’s a bit like watching one of those Burnley v Stoke matches of long ago, when you longed for the whistle to stop ✋ and both sides settle for 0-0. |
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Post by moby on Feb 6, 2022 16:33:39 GMT
Domjg Agree with those comments. Suspect a number of those on the "moderate right" have roughly similar views but with more emphasis on business etc. However, what I don't understand is what motivates the far right, Trumpists, Q anon etc. The rise of these groups is a worrying trend which is currently crossing the Atlantic. How to combat it if you don't understand the motivation? I don't know, but it seems to be a resentment at being left behind and ignored or taken for granted by politicians. The solution would presumably to stop taking them for granted, and to boost the economy in left behind areas. I could coin a term for it - how about 'levelling-up'? How do you address this though? Similar trends are increasing over here....why do you think Johnson brought up the Savile slur. Its been circulating for years and he knew what he was doing. Imo what is happening now is not normal 'cut and thrust' :- |
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Post by guymonde on Feb 6, 2022 16:34:25 GMT
The Tories seem to be in a terrible bind, unable to get a majority without Johnson and possibly now unelectable with him. If they get rid of him will all those Brexity ex-Lab or non voters from those red wall-ish constituencies switch or just not vote any more? If they keep him will everybody who isn't a Johnson die-hard move to vote the Tories out in any way that fits their constituency? I think they are taking less risk to keep him - but an emboldened Johnson is likely to make more and worse gaffes and poor decisions and sooner rather than later he'll be back in the shit again. A terrible bind. Out canvassing this morning for the forthcoming London locals. Not a whiff of partygate, nor of any of the issues for which the local Labour council is constantly vilified on social media. This was true both in the predominantly Labourish council estate on one side of the road and the predominantly Toryish villas backing onto a large park on t'other. It was the same last week in the posh part of the borough- the only hint of political engagement was the man who moaned about the council not sweeping the leaves outside his house. Most of the people I spoke to will vote (or as likely, not vote) in the same way as they have for years. It's finding the floaters that's the hard bit, and I think in several hours of door knocking recently I've spotted just one Tory waverer and one Labour likewise. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2022 16:35:35 GMT
Can @mark please start a “How to say Witham” thread and put the rest of out of our misery.
For those interested (what!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!) I used to teach near Witham, in Northumberland and - unless you a Geordie, in which case the pronunciation is unintelligible and undecipherable - it is pronounced as any sensible person would expect it to be: I.e. “Witham.”
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Post by domjg on Feb 6, 2022 16:36:56 GMT
Domjg Agree with those comments. Suspect a number of those on the "moderate right" have roughly similar views but with more emphasis on business etc. However, what I don't understand is what motivates the far right, Trumpists, Q anon etc. The rise of these groups is a worrying trend which is currently crossing the Atlantic. How to combat it if you don't understand the motivation? I don't know, but it seems to be a resentment at being left behind and ignored or taken for granted by politicians. The solution would presumably to stop taking them for granted, and to boost the economy in left behind areas. I could coin a term for it - how about 'levelling-up'? I honestly think that nonsense would never gain much traction here it’s all just too American, they’ve always been receptive to a tall tale. Re ‘levelling up’ they’ll be even more pissed off when it doesn’t happen |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2022 16:40:07 GMT
nickp
I think if you left this site it would be a loss (and Steve too) but doesn't mean that we all don't waste a lot of effort on weak party favouring twatishness. But as somebody once observed about one of my family's black sheep -you either take the whole person or you lose the bits you like.
I'd take you more seriously if you gave up your futile fight to try and beat me to the last post on the old UKPR's dying thread. You've become an irritating twat with your refusal to concede to the inevitable, forcing me to keep returning when I've got better things to do. Give it up, for pity's sake. You've got to be fit for this game. Why don’t you two settle this dispute with a one-leg-a-man game of one-a-side football? I’m sure people would really enjoy hopping football as a change from the walking variety. It would trend on YouTube. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Feb 6, 2022 16:43:49 GMT
@tw
"Is there any movement on 'pass the bill' in Holyrood and starting the IndyRef2 process? As you know we English get very little news about the politics in the other UK nations. As we all move past Covid then that 'excuse' for delay has gone"
As everyone should know with this pandemic, making an assumption that we have reached a point where we "move past Covid" is unwise. Another variant, and another wave is just as possible in 2022, as happened in 2020 and 2021. That will be something that ScotGov bear in mind, while they consider when to introduce the referendum bill.
"Passing" the bill will be the easy bit, as SNP/SGP have a majority, but it is a reasonable supposition that UKGov will refer the competence of the Scottish Parliament, to have it enacted into law, to the Supreme Court.
The timing of the Supreme Court hearing is not something that the Scottish Parliament can control, nor (obviously!) is their judgment. I understand the impatience of those (on both sides) who are obsessed with the constitutional issue, to "get on with it", but there are a lot of political manoeuvrings to happen, and tactical considerations to be decided.
In the meantime, the UK Unionists have lost patience, and have started their attack lines - probably a mistake. Timing is critical in any campaign, and this issue has been dominating Scottish politics for nearly 50 years, so a little patience is required!
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Post by shevii on Feb 6, 2022 16:50:21 GMT
colin You of course had no requirement to respond at all, it's not compulsory to share your opinions. The fact you chose to do so with an exceptionally juvenile personal insult adds nothing constructive but perhaps reflects on your own mind set. Incidentally as someone pointed out this isn't ukpr and the moderator here doesn't display the same novel approach to non partisanship often displayed at our old home. The auto moderation which didn't allow contributors to call compulsive liars like our prime minister a compulsive liar without creative grammatical errors was also frankly ludicrous. While I valued my participation in the old site (well, until I packed it up for 12 months, that it is), and was courteous to the site host accordingly, I never was a particular fan of Mr Wells' moderation, political objectivity or polling commentary. His moderation went against my natural instincts but, despite it ending up with this narrow demographic, I think the moderation made the site different to any other site. It was a bit silly to have a rule about not knowing what party you supported because you just create a post which says the same thing but without the contract clause but in general heavy moderation helped with the tone and kept it different to CIF or twitter which we can all use if we feel the need. Equally I do feel a bit as though it came over too comfortable and lacking in any passion which made it appear a jovial group of oldish men where politics was only a bit of a game. I welcomed posters like Princess Rachel who could be quite opinionated (in a positive way) but she seemed to be driven out and people like Nickp bring something to the boards too. I thought his polling commentary was exemplary so I'm not sure what issues you had with that, also for a very long time I didn't realise he was a Tory councillor. He was certainly wrong to ban us from discussing Dan Hodges- whatever he might have been it was very obvious what he was about to become! |
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Post by guymonde on Feb 6, 2022 16:52:38 GMT
The Tories seem to be in a terrible bind, unable to get a majority without Johnson and possibly now unelectable with him. If they get rid of him will all those Brexity ex-Lab or non voters from those red wall-ish constituencies switch or just not vote any more? If they keep him will everybody who isn't a Johnson die-hard move to vote the Tories out in any way that fits their constituency? Not sure there has been enough analysis on those "get brexit done" voters who switched. If they lent their vote to get brexit done and were happy to stick around for a bit given he had got brexit done (even if he hadn't really) then there might not be an inbuilt pro Johnson grouping here. A few lingering well he did what we wanted him to do while the other lot didn't perhaps. Perhaps they just voted brexit and Tory because they thought their lives would be improved by brexit but with no strong views about Johnson beyond brownie points on brexit, and the things he has done since doesn't make him any less of a negative among those voters as any of the traditional soft Tories who might have voted for Blair but not Corbyn. I have even less to go on but I'm quite struck by a guy who used to be a close friend of mine - kind of MOR and probably a genuine floater, though living in Redwood's constituency his vote was pretty irrelevant. A decent, kind man. Since Brexit he is increasingly embracing what I think of as far right memes - especially anti-immigration, islamophobic etc and he's lost to any kind of conversation about politics. I suspect he will vote as far right as is available for the rest of his natural. He's also always tweeting good news stories about British manufacturing, just as I'm inclined to tweet bad news stories. We are still mates and meet with a group of others from time to time - I still regard him as a friend but have to steer completely clear of politics. Same with my two prosperous rural Tory sisters |
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Post by mercian on Feb 6, 2022 16:54:20 GMT
I don't know, but it seems to be a resentment at being left behind and ignored or taken for granted by politicians. The solution would presumably to stop taking them for granted, and to boost the economy in left behind areas. I could coin a term for it - how about 'levelling-up'? I honestly think that nonsense would never gain much traction here it’s all just too American, they’ve always been recepti to a tall tale. Re ‘levelling up’ they’ll be even more pissed off when it doesn’t happen Those trying to disrupt society seem to be on the left in this country. From XR's website. "The next Rebellion starts at 10:00 Saturday 9 April in Hyde Park, London" |
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Post by guymonde on Feb 6, 2022 16:54:29 GMT
That is scarily true. A leader who has complete disdain for the rule of law and is now actively courting and emboldening the extremists should alarm even the traditional core Tory voters. Indeed, but I fear we are witnessing 'boiled frog syndrome' |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2022 16:56:43 GMT
robbiealive @"Most people on this site being old & middle-class are probably quite similar in moral terms:" I see you are practiced in the deployment of sweeping generalisation and stereotype. Given that most people on this site are precisely as Robbie described us and, as he said, “probably” quite similar in moral terms, I would say his comment was pretty accurate. What - specifically - do you disagree with?? |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Feb 6, 2022 16:57:41 GMT
@crofty
"I’m sure people would really enjoy hopping football"
"And now these three remain: Faith, Hop and Charity. But the greatest of these is Hop". (Red Dwarf)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2022 17:08:37 GMT
@crofty "I’m sure people would really enjoy hopping football" "And now these three remain: Faith, Hop and Charity. But the greatest of these is Hop". (Red Dwarf) That is the footy we all watch oldnat. |
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Post by jayblanc on Feb 6, 2022 17:10:12 GMT
He was certainly wrong to ban us from discussing Dan Hodges- whatever he might have been it was very obvious what he was about to become! There being some bias in the auto-mod's filter became apparent when the phrase 'Bullingdon Club' couldn't be used. Amongst other additions of particular phrases added to the filter, it made it somewhat difficult to discuss Boris Johnson's history. |
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Feb 6, 2022 17:14:54 GMT
@crofty "I’m sure people would really enjoy hopping football" "And now these three remain: Faith, Hop and Charity. But the greatest of these is Hop". (Red Dwarf) It's coming round to hopping cricket season soon, played with one arm tied behind you back. Makes catching difficult. Actually it makes bowling, batting and running difficult too. The kind of thing Monty Python excelled at. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2022 17:18:15 GMT
He was certainly wrong to ban us from discussing Dan Hodges- whatever he might have been it was very obvious what he was about to become! There being some bias in the auto-mod's filter became apparent when the phrase 'Bullingdon Club' couldn't be used. Amongst other additions of particular phrases added to the filter, it made it somewhat difficult to discuss Boris Johnson's history. The rules and conventions were an absolute mess. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2022 17:22:26 GMT
@tw
"Is there any movement on 'pass the bill' in Holyrood and starting the IndyRef2 process? As you know we English get very little news about the politics in the other UK nations. As we all move past Covid then that 'excuse' for delay has gone"
As everyone should know with this pandemic, making an assumption that we have reached a point where we "move past Covid" is unwise. Another variant, and another wave is just as possible in 2022, as happened in 2020 and 2021. That will be something that ScotGov bear in mind, while they consider when to introduce the referendum bill.
"Passing" the bill will be the easy bit, as SNP/SGP have a majority, but it is a reasonable supposition that UKGov will refer the competence of the Scottish Parliament, to have it enacted into law, to the Supreme Court.
The timing of the Supreme Court hearing is not something that the Scottish Parliament can control, nor (obviously!) is their judgment. I understand the impatience of those (on both sides) who are obsessed with the constitutional issue, to "get on with it", but there are a lot of political manoeuvrings to happen, and tactical considerations to be decided.
In the meantime, the UK Unionists have lost patience, and have started their attack lines - probably a mistake. Timing is critical in any campaign, and this issue has been dominating Scottish politics for nearly 50 years, so a little patience is required! I appreciate SNP and Scot.Gov can continue to ' dither and delay' and use Covid as an excuse for as long as they want but that is why I stated 'If not now (soon) then when'? I don't think R&W weight the regional-national x-breaks but for GB then note: Indy Scotland would have to stand on its own two feet and deal with any future 'crisis' be that a new Covid variant or whatever. In the negotiations of a transition period then it might be possible that Scotland continues to follow MHRA, be part of UK vaccine programme, keep using the £, etc (it is not for either of us to prejudge those negotiations, although you can suggest what ScotGov might ask for then I have no idea if rUK would accept those terms or what they would ask for in return). I can appreciate that SNP might never want to actually call IndyRef2 but just keep suggesting they will (I've mentioned that Starmer should quickly call that 'bluff' in one plausible future scenario). I totally agree timing is important - hence why Boris as PM (rather than possibly Starmer after GE'24) is IMO something that would help 'Yes' (as the Panelbase and other polling suggests it would). We've discussed the process issues many times and of course with an Indy majority of MSPs in Holyrood the bill would pass and then after that the full process would have to play out (ie once ScotGov passes the bill then all of the process 'events' that would follow (eg the legal issues) would be able to start, and, importantly, be close to impossible to stop). Those processes will take time and it is now just over 2yrs until the next GE. I appreciate the tactical option of holding IndyRef2 on the same day as GE'24 (risky IMO if it looks very likely SNP will be kingmakers to a LAB min.govt) but FWIU then Scot.Gov would still have the ability to decide when to hold a legally binding[1] IndyRef2 (ie ScotGov could continue to delay). EG after we know about the 'IF" then when you know you can legally hold IndyRef2 without Westminster 'permission' then SNP could wait and see what happens in GE'24 first (again risky IMO if the intention is to actually 'Get Indy Done') I'd also point out that the longer Scottish businesses are outside the EU then the more 'supply chains' will adjust to that scenario[2] (ie if the plan is to Vote.Leave.UK and then Vote.Rejoin.EU (which might require some negotiations if it is not a 'Clean Scexit' from UK) then 'tick tock' [1] Until Holyrood 'passes the bill' we don't know if IndyRef2 would be legal and FWIU then ScotGov isn't going down the same road as Catalonia with a UDI. [2] Quite a bit of data on that already suggesting a significant drop in trade with EU (and likely also means a higher level of trade between Scotland and rUK). Some of the lost EU trade might 'return' but you'll face 'inertia' issues |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Feb 6, 2022 17:23:40 GMT
@ pjw 12.04 pm I quote your rather reckless reply to me: ""Wow. I think you may have missed the point I was making, which was that lack of knowledge of different parts of a relatively large country is not confined to "recent immigrants" and I was querying why they were being singled out. You indeed make my point by demonstrating your profound ignorance of Essex, which is not as mono-cultural as you seem to imagine. That is not meant as an insult - I have equally never been to Preston or Scotland, although I haven't spent my whole life locked in Essex either. I had three years at university in the West Midlands and have holidayed in many parts of England and Wales, but without feeling that makes me an expert on those areas. So by "most of us" I did indeed mean virtually everyone in the UK. Still I suppose I should feel honoured that in addition to "recent immigrants" being unsuitable for media jobs you now wish to exclude the entire population of Essex as well."" So, pjw, I ask how did you decide that I had a "profound ignorance of Essex"? And why cannot you accept that the views of Essex people are NOT similar to "virtually everyone`s in the UK?" Do you need a whole litany of remembrance? I will give you just one quite interesting account, and a demonstration that not everywhere in the county is fully equipped. A few years ago we were visiting friends in Steeple Morden for the evening, and had gone to Royston BR station to pick up a son on a commuter train from London after his day`s work. On a platform was a gaggle of girls obviously heading to Cambridge for entertainment, and also a/the station attendant, who held a pair of binoculars. We soon realised that 2 trains would arrive 5 min apart, one heading on to Cambridge, but the other would reverse back to London after discharging its commuters. Both the girls and the "door-closer" didn`t know which platform the Cambridge train would stop at, and it seemed the BR man was teasing them on whether it was the normal "down" platform or the "up" one. He had his binoculars in order to watch a set of points about 400m back towards London. Maybe he waited to his last moment needed to position himself, then shouted out the platform; this had the lasses scurrying up the footbridge steps with screams and rejoinders. They were in time to get into the near-empty train and son emerged, before the carriage doors got slammed. So, as I understand it, you believe that you understand Essex because you have visited it a few times. I've had three holidays in Wales but I don't consider myself qualified to know what the man on the Caernarvon omnibus is thinking. Your 'Essex girls' anecdote is as much a stereotype as if I said I thought everyone from Preston eats black pudding and wears a flat cap or all Scotsman are mean and play the bagpipes (which - to be clear - I don't definitely don't think). Essex has a population of 1.5m and within that there is much diversity. If you're basing your view on the Tories currently holding all 18 Essex seats, do remember that is a product of FPTP. Essex has returned Labour and Lib Dem MPs in the past and will do so again in the future. It is a curious view to hold that everyone in Scotland and the North of England understands the whole nation and votes exclusively in the wider interest, whereas people in the south east are a bunch of dimwits who know nothing but their own area. My view is that knowledge and ignorance are likely to be spread around pretty evenly across any nation, with the possible exception of the additional pull of bright people to big cities and universities. |
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Post by eotw on Feb 6, 2022 17:26:06 GMT
As to the other part about functioning democracy I rather believe that it’s up to the voters in a GE to remove incumbent Prime Ministers not back room plotters or nobodies in the media or on WhatsApp or opposition parties come to that unless it’s a minority government and the opposition parties combine to force through a change of government Voters don't get to choose a PM, they get to vote for a MP. MPs decide (via HM) who the PM is. |
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Feb 6, 2022 17:31:07 GMT
The Witham Express is heading towards some of the more boring territories often explored in excruciating detail on UKPR1. Move on boys, move on.
Resident of 15 Redshank Crescent, SWF 1979-1981
In memory of the great Vic Marigold, resident of Danbury who passed on many years ago now and never gave me my pickaxe back.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Feb 6, 2022 17:34:00 GMT
The thing I got wrong in my original post was that while I've heard many a radio presenter call the place "With-am" and it should be "Wit-ham", most locals actually pronounce it "Witum" these days. When I was young you still sometimes heard the old rural Essex accident, which was soft and more like what you hear further north in East Anglia, but that has almost entirely been replaced by the harsher 'estuary English', heavily influenced by all the Londoners who were moved into the Essex New Towns after the war. And just to clarity Witham is not my town, although not too far away. Surely the Estuarian translation is Wi'um? Close, but not quite. There is a bit of a 't' in there, but you have to say the whole of "Witum" very fast and as one word. I can say it, but not sure how best to write it. I would say Wit-am, which is the traditional local pronunciation and basically right, since a ham is a farm or small settlement. Per wikipedia - "The name Witham is a composite name, part Brythonic (probably from a cognate of Gwydd = "Woods" in modern Welsh) and "ham" a typical Saxon ending." |
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Post by mercian on Feb 6, 2022 17:38:08 GMT
The Witham Express is heading towards some of the more boring territories often explored in excruciating detail on UKPR1. Move on boys, move on. Resident of 15 Redshank Crescent, SWF 1979-1981 In memory of the great Vic Marigold, resident of Danbury who passed on many years ago now and never gave me my pickaxe back. Witham could be from Witan-ham, then it's all Saxon which makes more sense.  |
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Post by thylacine on Feb 6, 2022 17:39:43 GMT
As to the other part about functioning democracy I rather believe that it’s up to the voters in a GE to remove incumbent Prime Ministers not back room plotters or nobodies in the media or on WhatsApp or opposition parties come to that unless it’s a minority government and the opposition parties combine to force through a change of government Voters don't get to choose a PM, they get to vote for a MP. MPs decide (via HM) who the PM is. Yes I remember being taught this many years ago in Public Affairs O level. We are a parliamentary democracy and don't elect a pm even though the party politics that has evolved might look otherwise. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2022 17:39:50 GMT
Surely the Estuarian translation is Wi'um? Close, but not quite. There is a bit of a 't' in there, but you have to say the whole of "Witum" very fast and as one word. I can say it, but not sure how best to write it. I would say Wit-am, which is the traditional local pronunciation and basically right, since a ham is a farm or small settlement. Per wikipedia - "The name Witham is a composite name, part Brythonic (probably from a cognate of Gwydd = "Woods" in modern Welsh) and "ham" a typical Saxon ending." We need more of this folks! |
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Post by mercian on Feb 6, 2022 17:44:56 GMT
I think a lot of floating voters will make their choice based on the party leaders. As these voters effectively decide elections the character and charisma of said leaders is important, even if it isn't supposed to be.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Feb 6, 2022 17:48:01 GMT
The Witham Express is heading towards some of the more boring territories often explored in excruciating detail on UKPR1. Move on boys, move on. Resident of 15 Redshank Crescent, SWF 1979-1981 In memory of the great Vic Marigold, resident of Danbury who passed on many years ago now and never gave me my pickaxe back. Ah South Woodham Ferrers, home of Gandalf's Ride, Celeborn Street, Arwen Grove and all those other weird Tolkien influenced road names. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Feb 6, 2022 17:51:42 GMT
@tw
Most of your comment is totally irrelevant to my response to your question.
For example, the majority of the GB (or even the Scottish) electorate believing UKGE that "the worst is behind us" doesn't materially affect the judgment of decision makers as to whether that is a likely scenario.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2022 17:54:11 GMT
I think a lot of floating voters will make their choice based on the party leaders. As these voters effectively decide elections the character and charisma of said leaders is important, even if it isn't supposed to be. Well, you are entitled to your opinion (even though you are wrong) but I think that most floating voters will want to know how their MPs pronounce “Witham”. |
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