c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 19, 2021 17:55:49 GMT
carfrew That reminds me: What do you say to an arts graduate? "Make that double fries please" oh God don’t, brings back memories of struggles to try and make that less of a thing. (still, some say the job market has improved recently for young folk. Dunno how true that is...) |
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Post by catmanjeff on Dec 19, 2021 18:01:30 GMT
carfrew That reminds me: What do you say to an arts graduate? "Make that double fries please"
The creative industries are very important to UK PLC.
It's sad that arts and humanities subjects are not well funded any more. For example, there has been a massive drop off in young people taking music.
We need scientists and engineers as a society, but some of the things that define our humanity are music, arts and poetry etc. The arts matter.
I would hate it if we became grey utilitarians.
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Post by peterbell on Dec 19, 2021 18:05:27 GMT
Liz Truss to take on Frosts role as well as remaining Foreign Sec. She is not capable of doing one job never mid two
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bantams
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Post by bantams on Dec 19, 2021 18:07:36 GMT
As thought on here, according to Harry Cole Liz Truss looks like she's taking over the NI negotiations as foreign secretary.
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Dec 19, 2021 18:12:24 GMT
Liz Truss to take on Frosts role as well as remaining Foreign Sec. She is not capable of doing one job never mid two Good move to give a poisoned chalice to someone threatening to usurp your throne. |
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Post by turk on Dec 19, 2021 18:12:47 GMT
I think people should stop looking at brexit in terms of peoples political choices. Joining the union was voted in by the very people who voted it out 40 odd years later .Why that happened is the question.
Remainers would suggest that the decision was made by basically simple folk who were easily duped by the ultra right wingers who wanted the U.K. to leave. Not only is this utter nonsense but it’s very lazy stereotypical thinking much like remainers accuse leavers of being.
Obviously if all was well with the U.K’s membership of the EU then it’s very unlikely there would have been a referendum and even if there was remain would have easily won.
However resentment of the EU had been building up for years, many of the issues within the EU membership were swept under the carpet in the hope they would go away, among which was the human rights act and free movement of people which allowed within a short space of time over 2 million people to settle in the U.K. Which in turn undermined wages and put enormous pressure on local housing and services.
Of course much of this didn’t effect better of workers and bosses had a large pool of cheap foreign Labour to choose from and actively encouraged it. But for those it displaced it just went to build up resentment and along with the human rights act which although in principle was a noble gesture again was seen by some only favour those who broke the law through illegal immigration and used it as a means of staying in the country and still do.
Personally I think those two things played a major part in voting to leave and could have been so easily avoided if more consideration had been given by the Blair Government which basically signed up to the Human rights act in 1998 and encouraged the huge movement in foreign workers without giving consideration on how it would effect the people at the lower end of the wages scale who would be most effected.
This in turn was perpetuated by the Tory government under Cameron so by the time we get to 2016 a whole ground swell of resentment had built up against the EU but imo because it had been ignored for years the remainers including myself who were oblivious to that fact . And it’s that same arrogance that you see time and time again on sites like this with remainers still portraying brexiteers as easily lead and rather stupid people totally ignoring it was our complacency and arrogance that lost the vote in the first place.
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Dec 19, 2021 18:18:26 GMT
One of the odder Brexit mysteries to me is the guys I know who voted to Leave purely as a protest against 'that toffee nosed **** Cameron', usually said with a few additional expletives. It was pure class war stuff.
The bit that I can't get my head around is that a few years later they were voting for a 'toffee nosed Johnson' with alacrity, to 'get Brexit done'. In truth when you asked them about the EU, they knew very little about it but it was received wisdom amongst their cohort that it was bad. They didn't know, or want to know why it was good or bad, it was fixed in their minds it that it just was.
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 19, 2021 18:21:15 GMT
Good Evening all; just about to drive from Old Labour Aberavon (Ramsay Mac and all that) to family in sunny Bournemouth, a Lab target possibly. On the middle v working class debate, the founding conference in 1900 dealt with that, with one of the delegates asking whether thay would reject a navvy who became a Great Contractor; or select boiler makers who earned £4 a week, but reject clerks who dressed like dukes but earned the same pay as dustmen. Burns urged the LRC to stay away from class phrases. His amendment was passed by 102 votes to 3. Carfrew, hello to you. I well remember 1975 to 1978; the strikes in the car plant in Oxford were highly debilitating for the last Old Labour Government. In other news, has anyone been following the row which Yvette Cooper has triggered, after her comments about the speech at the anti Lockdown demo? Maybe Labour will gain approval from voters who are not 'far left' Hope everyone has a safe holiday season. it’s not altogether a surprise if there are more strikes when people’s pay packets are getting trashed due to rampant inflation due to oil price hikes Chris. But Labour managed to keep the hit down to a bit more than a million unemployed. As opposed to a trebling unemployment and the loss of a big chunk of manufacturing under the next government. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2021 18:21:43 GMT
We need scientists and engineers as a society, but some of the things that define our humanity are music, arts and poetry etc. The arts matter.
I would hate it if we became grey utilitarians.
Agreed. It’s rather sad when the Arts come under attack from idiots. |
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Post by John Chanin on Dec 19, 2021 18:31:24 GMT
Probably not, if they hadn’t moved more to the left. Similarly the liberals within Labour sabotaged Corbyn. If the Liberal wing can dominate the party to get their policies through, fine. But if it’s the left’s turn, they would rather sabotage. You keep coming up with the word 'liberal', which is thrown around too much. Labour is basically a social-democratic party instead of a socialist party. In the past this was the opposite, but times have changed. Blair wasn't even a social-democrat, he was basically a liberal with a social-democratic majority party. Kinnock and Smith were social-democrats at heart, and so was Brown to a certain extent though less so. To join discussions together Blair was actually a Christian Democrat. The point about Christian Democracy is that it has a fundamental concern with social cohesion. Since radical change disrupts social cohesion this often appears conservative. On the other hand social cohesion requires that the bulk of the population considers society as generally fair, and this often aligns economically with social democracy. This preoccupation, as the name suggests, derives from Christian doctrine. Merkel of course is a classic exemplar with her religious background. But Blair also had a strong religious faith. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 19, 2021 18:33:48 GMT
Turk
Blair didn't " sign up" to the human rights act in 1998 it was an Act of the UK Parliament.
It did endeavour to clarify some points under the European convention on human rights which also had nothing to do with the European union and which the uk had been a signatory to for 23 years before joining the EEC.
It didn't have anything to do with free movement or " encouraging " foreign workers.
In fact movement of people from the rest of the European union to the UK fell between 1998 and 2003.
What amongst the primary terms of the HRA ie
Right to life Everyone’s right to life shall be protected by law
Prohibition of torture No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment
Prohibition of slavery and forced labour No one shall be held in slavery or servitude No one shall be required to perform forced or compulsory labour.
Do you think particularly attracted the surge of workers that didn't actually happen?
By the way to be charitable and I wouldn't want to to think I was simply being picky because your comment was absolutely factually incorrect, I actually think you have a point there was a degree of complacency , many didn't feel it necessary to point out what to them seemed the blindingly obvious benefits of European union membership.
I doubt the catastrophic decision will have a significant impact on the texas agricultural sector, so you should be okay.
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 19, 2021 18:37:08 GMT
Probably not, if they hadn’t moved more to the left. Similarly the liberals within Labour sabotaged Corbyn. If the Liberal wing can dominate the party to get their policies through, fine. But if it’s the left’s turn, they would rather sabotage. You keep coming up with the word 'liberal', which is thrown around too much. Labour is basically a social-democratic party instead of a socialist party. In the past this was the opposite, but times have changed. Blair wasn't even a social-democrat, he was basically a liberal with a social-democratic majority party. Kinnock and Smith were social-democrats at heart, and so was Brown to a certain extent though less so. Actually, a lot of liberalism gets ignored, and as a result they don’t get enough credit. Welfare, Keynesianism, a lot of the social reforms, are liberalism. As are a lot of the market economics. Liberalism underpins a lot. The EU follows German ordoliberalism. Using the state to impose the market, and keep inflation low etc. Blair imported quite a bit of US neoliberalism. Workfare, SureStart, minimum wage etc. |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 19, 2021 18:42:24 GMT
carfrew That reminds me: What do you say to an arts graduate? "Make that double fries please"
The creative industries are very important to UK PLC.
It's sad that arts and humanities subjects are not well funded any more. For example, there has been a massive drop off in young people taking music.
We need scientists and engineers as a society, but some of the things that define our humanity are music, arts and poetry etc. The arts matter.
I would hate it if we became grey utilitarians.
well I don’t know if Pete was attacking the arts, or whether it was a comment on job prospects or suitability of degrees. if people study music for a degree and not only can’t get a job doing music if they want one but struggle to get a degree level job at all, that’s an issue for me. Though I don’t find it amusing. |
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Dec 19, 2021 18:43:36 GMT
From memory the great swell of EU immigrants happened when the eastern countries entered the Union. The countries were generally poorer and the established EU member countries were economically attractive. I don't know if the same sort of 'swell' occurred in countries like Germany or France but if it didn't I'm wondering if their use of the Euro as currency made them less appealing. If that was the case then it's possible that the resentment over EU immigration might not have been so virulent if we'd joined the Euro too.
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Post by statgeek on Dec 19, 2021 18:43:56 GMT
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Post by robert on Dec 19, 2021 18:55:40 GMT
Turk
Great post. Blair threw away some hard won opt outs when he got in and gave up half of Thatchers hard won rebate in exchange in return for an empty promise from a crook called Chirac, which of course he reneged on.
The human rights act, whilst laudable in original intention, has been ever more mis-applied over the years by lefty lawyers and judges, ever eager to keep murderers, rapists and drug dealers from being rightfully deported, using ever more nefarious reasons. It's alright giving convicted criminals rights but they should never trump the rights of victims to feel safe.
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alurqa
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Post by alurqa on Dec 19, 2021 18:56:05 GMT
However resentment of the EU had been building up for years, many of the issues within the EU membership were swept under the carpet in the hope they would go away, among which was the human rights act and free movement of people which allowed within a short space of time over 2 million people to settle in the U.K. Which in turn undermined wages and put enormous pressure on local housing and services. Well we could/can build more houses to meet the pent up demand for housing. But this is refused because home owners tend to vote Tory; and in any case more housing will in general reduce house prices, and we can't have that. The policy of the last decade or more has been to get the big house builders to manage how many are built to meet their need for profit, with the needs of the community not even in the equation. We could/can build large numbers of council houses, funded by wealth taxes, to meet the current demand. But that will, of course, mean some of the current Tory voting landlords, those who perhaps let their partner's house, may find it uneconomic to rent if met by council house competition. And again we can't have that.
And it’s that same arrogance that you see time and time again on sites like this with remainers still portraying brexiteers as easily lead and rather stupid people totally ignoring it was our complacency and arrogance that lost the vote in the first place. As to stupid brexit voters I can offer a sample of one who was thick and voted for brexit: my father. When I asked him why, he couldn't answer. I asked him what was wrong with the EU, he had no idea. OK, so you don't know anything about the EU, why should we leave? He had no idea. When I pressed him on it he finally said 'because we won the war.' And to top it all he has now popped his clogs, so has left us in the sh*t. Thanks dad. He now sits in a cardboard box on my daughter's sideboard. She wants to know where we can spread his ashes. Both my brother and I said the same: in the bin.
As to brexit is done, get over it: No bloody way. I can't see us becoming a member state again in the near future, but I can see us joining the single market (that wonderful British idea :-). That does mean we will have to accept the four freedoms -- and we won't be offered any opt outs. It will be full Schengen membership, so no showing your passport to border control, just walk in. There is nowhere for the UK to go. The US has told us where to go, and the frantic attempts to build connections with the rest of the world (funny that all these places we want to talk to only speak English, what does that tell you?) are not going very well. They will only listen to us if we shaft our own market. When covid finally disappears there will be nowhere to hide.
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Post by mercian on Dec 19, 2021 18:56:47 GMT
carfrew That reminds me: What do you say to an arts graduate? "Make that double fries please"
The creative industries are very important to UK PLC.
It's sad that arts and humanities subjects are not well funded any more. For example, there has been a massive drop off in young people taking music.
We need scientists and engineers as a society, but some of the things that define our humanity are music, arts and poetry etc. The arts matter.
I would hate it if we became grey utilitarians.
Ah, the old Eloi and Morlocks argument. I wonder if one of the defining differences between left and right is the lack of a sense of humour in the former? |
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 19, 2021 19:00:47 GMT
Another day when South Africa daily figures are substantially down on this point last week with just three deaths reported.
At this rate there will be no weekly increase in daily numbers by next week.
Needless to say unlike the massive surge this won't be commented on by the UK media.
It is however relevant to UK government decision making and I hope it isn't disregarded in a futile attempt to prevent case growth which is already guaranteed.
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Post by leftieliberal on Dec 19, 2021 19:02:20 GMT
The creative industries are very important to UK PLC.
It's sad that arts and humanities subjects are not well funded any more. For example, there has been a massive drop off in young people taking music.
We need scientists and engineers as a society, but some of the things that define our humanity are music, arts and poetry etc. The arts matter.
I would hate it if we became grey utilitarians.
All the more reason to support the Public Campaign for the Arts www.campaignforthearts.org/petitions/nadine-dorries-act-now-to-protect-uk-culture-from-omicron/ |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 19, 2021 19:03:04 GMT
Some Telegraph tidbits...
“Older people break Covid rules more than the young because they worry less about the future”
“Scientists from the University of Kent found that younger people who went to raves in breach of lockdown restrictions earlier this year broke fewer Covid guidelines than single-vaccinated 80-year-olds.
While clubbers wore face masks and regularly washed their hands on the dance floor, those in their eighties carried on mixing in households without wearing a mask, breaking more restrictions.
The findings are linked to the outlook those over 80 years old have on their future lives.
Researchers said it was a case of older people being less concerned about the future, whereas the partygoers felt more responsibility as they had longer left to live.”
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Post by robert on Dec 19, 2021 19:06:38 GMT
From memory the great swell of EU immigrants happened when the eastern countries entered the Union. The countries were generally poorer and the established EU member countries were economically attractive. I don't know if the same sort of 'swell' occurred in countries like Germany or France but if it didn't I'm wondering if their use of the Euro as currency made them less appealing. If that was the case then it's possible that the resentment over EU immigration might not have been so virulent if we'd joined the Euro too. IIRC all other countries kept their doors closed for a long period after. Blair opened them immediately, having made some very unrealistic estimates of numbers and many times those estimates arrived, during down wages and denuding their own countries of workers. Nothing to do with the euro. They all wanted higher wages. |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 19, 2021 19:06:57 GMT
“Omicron may be less efficient at replicating in the lungs than previous Covid variants, according to hopeful new UK laboratory research.
A study conducted by scientists at the Cambridge Institute of Therapeutic Immunology and Infectious Disease suggested that mutations on the virus’ spike protein, which make it able to evade antibodies, may also reduce its ability to attack the lungs and cause severe disease.”
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Dec 19, 2021 19:11:51 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2021 19:26:10 GMT
I always like to remind people of www.flourish.org/2016/07/on-finding-political-axes-using-maths/ Francis Irving used to be on UKPR, which is how I came across the work. When you look at the Google slides it is quite evident that there are Thatcherites amongst the supporters of all the main parties, but the big distinction as Francis says is the axis that "combines opposition to the EU, support of capital punishment, dislike of state funded international aid and wanting to tax working people less." This is the axis that shows the most difference between Labour/Lib Dems on one side and Tories/UKIP on the other. I hadn't seen that before. Intersting. Thanks for posting. |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 19, 2021 19:29:02 GMT
“Covid hotspot figures show NHS may avoid being overwhelmed by omicron - here’s why”
“Sharp rise in cases in South Northamptonshire has not been followed by comparable growth in hospital admissions, data show
Analysis by The Telegraph of Britain’s outbreak hotspot of the new variant reveals that the spike in cases is not being followed by a comparable rise in hospital admissions.
According to data collected by the Wellcome Sanger Institute, South Northamptonshire was one of the first areas to suffer a cluster of cases, with more than 926 cases per 100,000 people - the highest in the country.
However, the hospital admission rate at the Northampton General Hospital NHS Trust is not experiencing a similar surge.
As of December 12, its rolling admissions rate was steady at about 11 per cent of the January peak, broadly matching those trends of high cases but lower admissions seen in South Africa.
The area is helped by very high vaccination rates - 83 per cent of people have had a second jab and 50 per cent have had a booster, compared to the national average of 40 per cent.”
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 19, 2021 19:36:12 GMT
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 19, 2021 19:57:54 GMT
I find it strange that the right wing in Britain is always fond of 'small government' libertarianism. In most other countries (the USA being the exception) libertarianism is an attribute of the centre-left. I can only assume that this is because Britain doesn't have a tradition of Christian Democracy, which is socially conservative but economically centre-leftist. British conservatism is very libertarian and focused on free market liberalism. I always like to remind people of www.flourish.org/2016/07/on-finding-political-axes-using-maths/ Francis Irving used to be on UKPR, which is how I came across the work. When you look at the Google slides it is quite evident that there are Thatcherites amongst the supporters of all the main parties, but the big distinction as Francis says is the axis that "combines opposition to the EU, support of capital punishment, dislike of state funded international aid and wanting to tax working people less." This is the axis that shows the most difference between Labour/Lib Dems on one side and Tories/UKIP on the other. Thanks for posting this. Interesting. And it kind of chimes with what I have been thinking. obviously, the economic axis supports the idea that economically the centre is more to the left. But the other axis, the one where it is a case of some being more internationalist at one end, vs. at the other end, more anti-immigration, anti-EU, isolationist, and less forgiving of crime… …it does strike me that this bears some relation to the research on the disgust reflex I have mentioned before. That those with more active disgust reflexes might tend to be more isolationist, and perhaps tribal. (The disgust reflex is posited as an evolved defence against novel infections). This could also relate to the idea that societies which tend to be less affected by concerns around infection - better healthcare, sanitation - tend to be more liberal, and internationalist. (And that Covid therefore might have swung things away from the liberal. Now that the infection fear is lessening, things can shift to the more liberal again). P.s. it is possible for remainers to also be tribal. For instance if they instinctively prefer continental genes to Anglo. Research suggests people pick best friends who are genetically more similar to them. It’s equivalent to being second cousins apparently. |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 19, 2021 20:53:46 GMT
If we think of it in terms of survival, the two things that might have most impacted on that in the past, might have been novel infections, which might be harder to survive, and having enough food and shelter (I.e. economic). (Collaboration might have also been important hence the concern with crime). So the dominant political axes might reflect that. People with better immune systems, might favour internationalism etc.
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 19, 2021 21:24:25 GMT
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