oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
|
Post by oldnat on Dec 19, 2021 15:33:17 GMT
"It has now become clear that he was a highly ideologically driven and politically opiniated non-elected public servant. Was that ever the right sort of quasi-diplomat to head up the most serious and delicate set of trade negotiations the country has ever had to manage since we entered the EEC in the 1970s? " That description applies just as much to Barnier as it does Frost. Except that Barnier was a politician who was first elected to the National Assembly at the age of 27, and continued in that role for 15 years before serving in the French Cabinet for a number of years in various posts until he became an elected MEP, then holding a variety of positions in the EU. Frost was appointed by the PM to become a peer, in order to be brought into government, and continues as an unelected (and never elected) legislator. |
|
|
|
Post by mercian on Dec 19, 2021 15:35:54 GMT
"It has now become clear that he was a highly ideologically driven and politically opiniated non-elected public servant. Was that ever the right sort of quasi-diplomat to head up the most serious and delicate set of trade negotiations the country has ever had to manage since we entered the EEC in the 1970s? " That description applies just as much to Barnier as it does Frost. Quite. And wasn't it amusing that Barnier lost in his bid to be French president. |
|
|
|
Post by leftieliberal on Dec 19, 2021 15:39:32 GMT
statgeek said in ukpollingreport2.proboards.com/post/4606/thread "So place your bets. Can he last another 170 days are get ahead of Brown? Will he go even further, and pass Theresa May with 227 days? For three gold stars, he can stretch it to 244 more days to pass James Callaghan. So mark your diaries:" Or will some loony, inspired by Piers Corbyn, burn down his constituency office with Boris inside within the next 73 days, meaning that he will replace Spencer Percival as the shortest-serving Prime Minister to die at the hands of an assassin? :-(
|
|
|
|
Post by alec on Dec 19, 2021 15:42:19 GMT
neilj - I think bantams is correct. If the modellers are anything like correct this time, and we see hospital admissions climbing past 2000, the right wing loons on the benches behind Johnson will, in the main, meekly accept what has to be done, but I'm sure they won't accept any responsibility for helping to delay sensible measures that could have lessened the problems. The right wing of the Conservative Party preach responsibility, but only for everyone else.
|
|
c-a-r-f-r-e-w
Member
A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,700
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 19, 2021 15:42:34 GMT
British conservatism is very libertarian and focused on free market liberalism. Liberalism was typically concerned with that, when it was Liberals versus Conservatives. When Liberalism got marginalised, they looked to take over the main parties. With the Tories it was Heath and the Selsdon set who went much more right wing economically, starting with deregulating banking, and taking on the unions. Thatch continued it of course. with Labour, it was social liberalism of the late Sixties. But later, the liberals in the party sabotaged Labour when they were doing well in the polls under Foot, breaking away to form the SDP. The Falklands war did the rest. Later Labour would adopt a good deal of the right wing economics and Tories the left wing socially liberal policies. We only had versions of liberalism to choose from among the main parties for decades. Until the second half of the last decade. Corbynism was an attempt to reclaim the party from the “Progressive” (I.e. liberal) take over, as was Brexit for the Tories. |
|
|
|
Post by mercian on Dec 19, 2021 15:46:47 GMT
I find it strange that the right wing in Britain is always fond of 'small government' libertarianism. In most other countries (the USA being the exception) libertarianism is an attribute of the centre-left. I can only assume that this is because Britain doesn't have a tradition of Christian Democracy, which is socially conservative but economically centre-leftist. British conservatism is very libertarian and focused on free market liberalism. I always like to remind people of www.flourish.org/2016/07/on-finding-political-axes-using-maths/ Francis Irving used to be on UKPR, which is how I came across the work. When you look at the Google slides it is quite evident that there are Thatcherites amongst the supporters of all the main parties, but the big distinction as Francis says is the axis that "combines opposition to the EU, support of capital punishment, dislike of state funded international aid and wanting to tax working people less." This is the axis that shows the most difference between Labour/Lib Dems on one side and Tories/UKIP on the other. Very interesting set of slides. Thanks. |
|
c-a-r-f-r-e-w
Member
A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,700
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 19, 2021 15:54:32 GMT
Robert, One of Kinnocks first acts on becoming leader was to get the Labour Party policy changed as soon as he could. The 1987 and 1982 manifestos both advocating remaining in the EC (as it then was I think). You are right, though, but just the wrong GE, as in 1983 Labour was committed to leaving the EC without any referendum. You mean the 1987 and 1992 manifestos. We all know how well Labour did in 1983 don't we? In those days I backed the Tories, and again in 1987 - but never after that. Wasn’t necessarily the policy stance that did for Labour in 1983, compared with the impact of SDP breakaway and Falklands. If you look at the polling of the era. |
|
|
|
Post by mercian on Dec 19, 2021 15:59:17 GMT
But would the SDP have broken away if Labour's policies had been different?
|
|
c-a-r-f-r-e-w
Member
A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,700
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 19, 2021 16:04:52 GMT
But would the SDP have broken away if Labour's policies had been different? Probably not, if they hadn’t moved more to the left. Similarly the liberals within Labour sabotaged Corbyn. If the Liberal wing can dominate the party to get their policies through, fine. But if it’s the left’s turn, they would rather sabotage. |
|
|
|
Post by robert on Dec 19, 2021 16:06:51 GMT
Jimjam
Thanks for the correction on the decades. Memory playing tricks again!
|
|
|
|
Post by leftieliberal on Dec 19, 2021 16:07:03 GMT
tancred in ukpollingreport2.proboards.com/post/4612/thread said:` "A referendum in 1992 would have been a good idea because remain would most probably have won, and won easily." Actually there wasn't any formal way to leave the EU until the Lisbon Treaty introduced it. All 2016 proves is that referenda are a bad way to make policy decisions, Harold Wilson was lucky in 1975 that the public gave him the result he wanted; as Cameron found out, that doesn't always happen.
|
|
|
|
Post by tancred on Dec 19, 2021 16:31:00 GMT
Liberalism was typically concerned with that, when it was Liberals versus Conservatives. When Liberalism got marginalised, they looked to take over the main parties. With the Tories it was Heath and the Selsdon set who went much more right wing economically, starting with deregulating banking, and taking on the unions. Thatch continued it of course. with Labour, it was social liberalism of the late Sixties. But later, the liberals in the party sabotaged Labour when they were doing well in the polls under Foot, breaking away to form the SDP. The Falklands war did the rest. Later Labour would adopt a good deal of the right wing economics and Tories the left wing socially liberal policies. We only had versions of liberalism to choose from among the main parties for decades. Until the second half of the last decade. Corbynism was an attempt to reclaim the party from the “Progressive” (I.e. liberal) take over, as was Brexit for the Tories. Labour was had some idiotic ideas under Foot, such leaving the EEC and NATO when membership of these organisations was taken for granted by the vast majority of the electorate. Labour would have done better under Dennis Healey. |
|
|
|
Post by robert on Dec 19, 2021 16:34:59 GMT
Tancred
"You're not a Christian Democrat because the EU was founded by Christian Democrats!! You're a conservative and a nationalist. Brexit is only supported on the left by the Trotskyist fringe who sees evil fat capitalists behind everything the EU does. A referendum in 1992 would have been a good idea because remain would most probably have won, and won easily."
Well if it's ok with you, I'll decide what I am. The fact that the EU was founded by Cristian Democrats (is that even correct?) is irrelevant. There is no such party in the U.K. but with the descriptor, fiscally left, socially right, then that is probably where I would best fit. I am no more a Nationalist than the average Welshman, Scotsman, or Frenchman. Yes I am proud to be an Englishman but despair that, whenever anyone stands up for Englishness it is immediately, a jingoistic or racist or some other equally ridiculous label, that is attached by people like you.
So the best fit for me is the Tories as things stand at present but under a PR system, that could change, as that party would likely split into two or maybe even three parties. Labour similarly. That doesn't mean to say I agree with all they do. Take the cladding scandal as an example, the developers who misused the system and knowingly used inferior products, should have been given the whole bill for putting it right, not the leaseholders. Labour would probably have done that. But I just can't support their left wing social policies, so they won't get my vote.
Given the aggressive manner in which you post, I would venture that you are much more of an extremist than I am.
|
|
|
|
Post by tancred on Dec 19, 2021 16:35:12 GMT
But would the SDP have broken away if Labour's policies had been different? Probably not, if they hadn’t moved more to the left. Similarly the liberals within Labour sabotaged Corbyn. If the Liberal wing can dominate the party to get their policies through, fine. But if it’s the left’s turn, they would rather sabotage. You keep coming up with the word 'liberal', which is thrown around too much. Labour is basically a social-democratic party instead of a socialist party. In the past this was the opposite, but times have changed. Blair wasn't even a social-democrat, he was basically a liberal with a social-democratic majority party. Kinnock and Smith were social-democrats at heart, and so was Brown to a certain extent though less so. |
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,633
Member is Online
|
Post by steve on Dec 19, 2021 16:38:03 GMT
" I don't agree that Brexit is right wing either. Plenty of left wingers support it"
Left wingers like Piers Corbyn?
Good luck with that mate!
Actually I agree with you Brexit as a concept isn't right wing it's just nationalist exceptionalism.
|
|
|
|
Post by tancred on Dec 19, 2021 16:39:01 GMT
Tancred "You're not a Christian Democrat because the EU was founded by Christian Democrats!! You're a conservative and a nationalist. Brexit is only supported on the left by the Trotskyist fringe who sees evil fat capitalists behind everything the EU does. A referendum in 1992 would have been a good idea because remain would most probably have won, and won easily." Well if it's ok with you, I'll decide what I am. The fact that the EU was founded by Cristian Democrats (is that even correct?) is irrelevant. There is no such party in the U.K. but with the descriptor, fiscally left, socially right, then that is probably where I would best fit. I am no more a Nationalist than the average Welshman, Scotsman, or Frenchman. Yes I am proud to be an Englishman but despair that, whenever anyone stands up for Englishness it is immediately, a jingoistic or racist or some other equally ridiculous label, that is attached by people like you. So the best fit for me is the Tories as things stand at present but under a PR system, that could change, as that party would likely split into two or maybe even three parties. Labour similarly. That doesn't mean to say I agree with all they do. Take the cladding scandal as an example, the developers who misused the system and knowingly used inferior products, should have been given the whole bill for putting it right, not the leaseholders. Labour would probably have done that. But I just can't support their left wing social policies, so they won't get my vote. Given the aggressive manner in which you post, I would venture that you are much more of an extremist than I am. Not sure why you are throwing your toys out of the pram - I was simply disagreeing with your definition of 'Christian Democrat'. My analysis of your views is that you have a range of views, but in terms of where you are politically it's still very much on the right. |
|
c-a-r-f-r-e-w
Member
A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,700
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 19, 2021 16:41:43 GMT
Probably not, if they hadn’t moved more to the left. Similarly the liberals within Labour sabotaged Corbyn. If the Liberal wing can dominate the party to get their policies through, fine. But if it’s the left’s turn, they would rather sabotage. You keep coming up with the word 'liberal', which is thrown around too much. Labour is basically a social-democratic party instead of a socialist party. In the past this was the opposite, but times have changed. Blair wasn't even a social-democrat, he was basically a liberal with a social-democratic majority party. Kinnock and Smith were social-democrats at heart, and so was Brown to a certain extent though less so. Well I wasn’t seeking to defend Foot’s policies. Just pointing out how it happened that Conservatives came to exhibit the right wing economics you were on about, which is usually associated with the Liberals, and how Labour came to adopt some of it as well. i got an early heads up while at Oxford, when a friend urged me and others to vote SDP. He later became a Labour MP. It was my first taste of what you might call cuckoo politics. (As for crazy policies, that might be more common than you might think. Alongside the recent craziness of using a flu pandemic response for a Coronavirus, we recently discovered, courtesy of leftieliberal, that under New Labour they were actually presented with a proper Coronavirus pandemic plan - drawing on the experience of SARS and MERS - but failed to adopt it somehow). |
|
|
|
Post by tancred on Dec 19, 2021 16:43:43 GMT
" I don't agree that Brexit is right wing either. Plenty of left wingers support it" Left wingers like Piers Corbyn? Good luck with that mate! Actually I agree with you Brexit as a concept isn't right wing it's just nationalist exceptionalism. The reason Brexit was successful at the referendum - the only reason why it was successful, in my opinion - is that it was supported by groups of people with widely diverging political views on other issues. The three main supporters being English/British nationalists, right-wing liberal/libertarians and Marxists/Trotskyists. Each one of these groups had their own reasons for detesting the EU. |
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,633
Member is Online
|
Post by steve on Dec 19, 2021 16:45:55 GMT
Tancred
As a social democrat I had no issue voting for Labour except under Foot, as a serving police officer at the time I wasn't permitted to be a member of a political party.
Once I left I joined the Labour party and remained until the far left resurfaced with purity of dogma above practicality under Corbyn.
I should really rejoin but as my local area lib dems keep winning it's quite nice for a change to be on the winning side in elections.
|
|
|
|
Post by tancred on Dec 19, 2021 16:49:04 GMT
You keep coming up with the word 'liberal', which is thrown around too much. Labour is basically a social-democratic party instead of a socialist party. In the past this was the opposite, but times have changed. Blair wasn't even a social-democrat, he was basically a liberal with a social-democratic majority party. Kinnock and Smith were social-democrats at heart, and so was Brown to a certain extent though less so. Well I wasn’t seeking to defend Foot’s policies. Just pointing out how it happened that Conservatives came to exhibit the right wing economics yiu were on about, which is usually associated with the Liberals, and how Labour came to adopt some of it as well. i got an early heads up while at Oxford, when a friend urged me and others to vote SDP. He later became a Labour MP. It was my first taste of what you might call cuckoo politics. I agree that Tory politics did evolve from protectionism to free market economics, Joseph Chamberlain being probably the last major politician to advocate imperial protectionism from within the Tory ranks. As for the Liberals, their vote declined because they remained a basically middle class party at a time when the franchise was expanded to the working class, and Labour took its chance as the voice of the working man. When the Liberals did recover was it moved more to the left and started to grab votes that would normally go to Labour. |
|
|
|
Post by tancred on Dec 19, 2021 16:50:43 GMT
Tancred As a social democrat I had no issue voting for Labour except under Foot, as a serving police officer at the time I wasn't permitted to be a member of a political party. Once I left I joined the Labour party and remained until the far left resurfaced with purity of dogma above practicality under Corbyn. I should really rejoin but as my local area lib dems keep winning it's quite nice for a change to be on the winning side in elections. It makes sense to vote tactically if you can. |
|
c-a-r-f-r-e-w
Member
A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,700
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 19, 2021 16:51:02 GMT
Well I wasn’t seeking to defend Foot’s policies. Just pointing out how it happened that Conservatives came to exhibit the right wing economics yiu were on about, which is usually associated with the Liberals, and how Labour came to adopt some of it as well. i got an early heads up while at Oxford, when a friend urged me and others to vote SDP. He later became a Labour MP. It was my first taste of what you might call cuckoo politics. I agree that Tory politics did evolve from protectionism to free market economics, Joseph Chamberlain being probably the last major politician to advocate imperial protectionism from within the Tory ranks. As for the Liberals, their vote declined because they remained a basically middle class party at a time when the franchise was expanded to the working class, and Labour took its chance as the voice of the working man. When the Liberals did recover was it moved more to the left and started to grab votes that would normally go to Labour. yep, they moved left to get votes, but then when they were in power... Cuckoos! !!! |
|
c-a-r-f-r-e-w
Member
A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,700
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 19, 2021 16:53:29 GMT
Well I wasn’t seeking to defend Foot’s policies. Just pointing out how it happened that Conservatives came to exhibit the right wing economics yiu were on about, which is usually associated with the Liberals, and how Labour came to adopt some of it as well. i got an early heads up while at Oxford, when a friend urged me and others to vote SDP. He later became a Labour MP. It was my first taste of what you might call cuckoo politics. I agree that Tory politics did evolve from protectionism to free market economics, Joseph Chamberlain being probably the last major politician to advocate imperial protectionism from within the Tory ranks. As for the Liberals, their vote declined because they remained a basically middle class party at a time when the franchise was expanded to the working class, and Labour took its chance as the voice of the working man. When the Liberals did recover was it moved more to the left and started to grab votes that would normally go to Labour. Interesting you should mention the middle class thing. Some are advocating Labour should move away from the working class and embrace the more metropolitan thing. |
|
c-a-r-f-r-e-w
Member
A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,700
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 19, 2021 17:04:54 GMT
@james E
I found the immigration post, which was a couple of months ago. (I remembered that around the same time, Hireton had posted a link to the NSIER thing, which I had saved, so I searched for that). But it’s not on this iPad. I’ll post it later...
|
|
|
|
Post by robert on Dec 19, 2021 17:10:59 GMT
Tancred
"Not sure why you are throwing your toys out of the pram - I was simply disagreeing with your definition of 'Christian Democrat'. My analysis of your views is that you have a range of views, but in terms of where you are politically it's still very much on the right."
Reasoned argument/discussion is throwing my toys out of my pram?
"The reason Brexit was successful at the referendum - the only reason why it was successful, in my opinion - is that it was supported by groups of people with widely diverging political views on other issues. The three main supporters being English/British nationalists, right-wing liberal/libertarians and Marxists/Trotskyists. Each one of these groups had their own reasons for detesting the EU."
So where do you place the residents of Sunderland et al and remember a substantial number of Scots and Welsh voted leave too. Where do you place them? I doubt they are English Nationalists! You are too eager to place people in boxes. As for Marxists and Trotskyist's, I doubt the voting ones number more than a few thousand.
Finally, don't lose sight of the fact that this is all about an undemocratic political set up called the EU whose sole aim is a United States of Europe run by bureaucrats. This is not about Europe, or even the Common Market.
|
|
c-a-r-f-r-e-w
Member
A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,700
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 19, 2021 17:30:47 GMT
Another reason for Thatcher’s success in ‘83 alongside SDP and Falklands is that IIRC by that point the oil price was falling back. In her second term the collapse in oil price to a quarter of what it had been would usher in a world boom that would get credited to Thatch by some.
|
|
|
|
Post by mercian on Dec 19, 2021 17:31:30 GMT
Interesting you should mention the middle class thing. Some are advocating Labour should move away from the working class and embrace the more metropolitan thing. I thought they already had - hence the loss of the so-called Red Wall. |
|
c-a-r-f-r-e-w
Member
A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,700
|
Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Dec 19, 2021 17:35:34 GMT
Interesting you should mention the middle class thing. Some are advocating Labour should move away from the working class and embrace the more metropolitan thing. I thought they already had - hence the loss of the so-called Red Wall. apparently not enough. I think the idea is to abandon the red wall and secure even more degree-educated metropolitans instead. (trouble is, if the metropolitans are increasingly the ones finishing a degree to find a career path of working some zero hours while scrambling to pay the ever-rising rent. Which might be why they liked Corbyn). |
|
|
|
Post by mercian on Dec 19, 2021 17:43:47 GMT
carfrew
That reminds me:
What do you say to an arts graduate?
"Make that double fries please"
|
|
|
|
Post by chrisaberavon on Dec 19, 2021 17:53:10 GMT
Good Evening all; just about to drive from Old Labour Aberavon (Ramsay Mac and all that) to family in sunny Bournemouth, a Lab target possibly.
On the middle v working class debate, the founding conference in 1900 dealt with that, with one of the delegates asking whether thay would reject a navvy who became a Great Contractor; or select boiler makers who earned £4 a week, but reject clerks who dressed like dukes but earned the same pay as dustmen. Burns urged the LRC to stay away from class phrases. His amendment was passed by 102 votes to 3.
Carfrew, hello to you. I well remember 1975 to 1978; the strikes in the car plant in Oxford were highly debilitating for the last Old Labour Government.
In other news, has anyone been following the row which Yvette Cooper has triggered, after her comments about the speech at the anti Lockdown demo? Maybe Labour will gain approval from voters who are not 'far left'
Hope everyone has a safe holiday season.
|
|
