oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
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Post by oldnat on Dec 19, 2021 21:35:42 GMT
Maybe they are all Johnson's children and part of his household? |
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Post by js on Dec 19, 2021 21:52:56 GMT
Finally, don't lose sight of the fact that this is all about an undemocratic political set up called the EU whose sole aim is a United States of Europe run by bureaucrats. This is not about Europe, or even the Common Market. I’ve heard this one a lot but for the life of me could never quite understand how it took hold so effectively. There aren’t any positions in the EU with legislative power which are not politically appointed by democratically elected governments. The most commonly cited example is the European Commission but its members are appointed by each of the 27 states’ governments. Sure, they’re not directly elected, but ministers in most European governments don’t have to be directly elected either. It is a peculiarly English notion to scoff a a political appointee that has not had to win an election to the House of Commons. Am I missing something here? |
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Post by mercian on Dec 19, 2021 21:59:26 GMT
js
"It is a peculiarly English notion to scoff a a political appointee that has not had to win an election to the House of Commons."
And that notion is wrong because it's English presumably?
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
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Post by oldnat on Dec 19, 2021 22:02:18 GMT
Finally, don't lose sight of the fact that this is all about an undemocratic political set up called the EU whose sole aim is a United States of Europe run by bureaucrats. This is not about Europe, or even the Common Market. I’ve heard this one a lot but for the life of me could never quite understand how it took hold so effectively. There aren’t any positions in the EU with legislative power which are not politically appointed by democratically elected governments. The most commonly cited example is the European Commission but its members are appointed by each of the 27 states’ governments. Sure, they’re not directly elected, but ministers in most European governments don’t have to be directly elected either. It is a peculiarly English notion to scoff a a political appointee that has not had to win an election to the House of Commons. Am I missing something here? More accurate, I think, to say "It is a peculiarly British notion to scoff a a political appointee that has not had to win an election to the House of Commons." Brits outwith England are just as likely to have the same insular attitude. |
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Post by mercian on Dec 19, 2021 22:10:02 GMT
ON
So again, you (and js) imply that because an idea is peculiar to Britain that that means that it's wrong?
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Post by alec on Dec 19, 2021 22:14:10 GMT
Liz Truss will now take over the Brexit negotiations, as Johnson brings them back into the FO. That will alarm Brexiters within Con ranks, who see the FO as very remain orientated. It alarms everyone else, because putting Liz Truss in charge of anything important is just frightening.
The Australian trade delegation still can't believe their luck, having 'Doormat' Truss give them everything they ever wanted for f@ck all in return.
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
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Post by oldnat on Dec 19, 2021 22:17:32 GMT
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,131
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Post by oldnat on Dec 19, 2021 22:20:41 GMT
ON So again, you (and js) imply that because an idea is peculiar to Britain that that means that it's wrong? No. I say clearly that expecting other polities to do what Britain does, and excoriating them for not so doing is simply nationalist exceptionalism, born of insularity, ignorance and arrogance. |
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Post by js on Dec 19, 2021 22:22:42 GMT
js "It is a peculiarly English notion to scoff a a political appointee that has not had to win an election to the House of Commons." And that notion is wrong because it's English presumably? Wrong is a strong word that I wouldn’t choose to use. I personally find it peculiar because I lean towards representative democracy as opposed to direct democracy. I want a government cabinet composed of the best people for the job, not necessarily restricted to those who have won an election in some electoral circle. As long as the people retain the power to vote out the ones making the appointments, I’m cool with it. Take Frosty for example. I found many things objectionable with him but being unelected was not one of them. |
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Post by alec on Dec 19, 2021 22:24:46 GMT
Gavin Barwell offers a neat summary of Frost's issues, very much in line with my thoughts:
"The tragedy of @davidghfrost
and those who think like him is that they can't see that the high tax burden they dislike is in part the result of the hard Brexit they chose 1/4"
"That they won't acknowledge that wholesale deregulation - which is why they wanted to leave the EU - is not the Brexit that was sold to millions of Leave voters and not a viable political strategy for the Conservative Party 2/4"
"And that they won't face up to the fact that we can walk away from the Northern Ireland Protocol or we can have a zero tariff deal with the EU + good relations with the Biden administration but we can't have both 3/4"
"Sooner or later, someone is going to have to face up to these choices rather than resigning when confronted with them 4/4"
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Post by mercian on Dec 19, 2021 22:25:19 GMT
ON
Well what other nations do is of course up to them. But if you're referring to the EU as a 'polity' then the fact that it is a British idea to be able to hold politicians directly accountable and the EU doesn't allow that, then I'm sure you'll agree that we're well off out of it.
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Post by guymonde on Dec 19, 2021 22:26:27 GMT
carfrew That reminds me: What do you say to an arts graduate? "Make that double fries please"
The creative industries are very important to UK PLC.
It's sad that arts and humanities subjects are not well funded any more. For example, there has been a massive drop off in young people taking music.
We need scientists and engineers as a society, but some of the things that define our humanity are music, arts and poetry etc. The arts matter.
I would hate it if we became grey utilitarians.
Quite. This is a bit of a Daily Mail meme. I have worked under two CEOs in a large corporate in the technology sector, one of whom was a philosophy graduate and one a music graduate. Of course we need doctors, physicists, engineers and plumbers but there is increasing demand for creatives and social scientists and a lot of new employment is in media and creative sectors. Just for example, when I worked for Ford in the early 1970s there were around 30,000 employees in the UK. Sky currently employs about 32,000. Most of what was made in West London in the 1970s/1980s is now made in China. 200 years ago the same questions were no doubt being asked about those training for factory work |
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Post by js on Dec 19, 2021 22:29:22 GMT
Brits outwith England are just as likely to have the same insular attitude. That may well be true but I live in England and that’s my experience. I’m sure you’re right but I don’t meet a lot of non-English Brits and the representation of the politics of the other British nations in the English media is but a footnote and of subjects of interest to the English at that. As a result, Scotland or Wales are more remote to me than even France or Germany. |
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bantams
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Known as Bantams on UKPR
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Post by bantams on Dec 19, 2021 22:34:11 GMT
Is that Larry perched on Carrie's knee? |
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Post by js on Dec 19, 2021 22:44:06 GMT
"Sooner or later, someone is going to have to face up to these choices rather than resigning when confronted with them 4/4" I think Gavin was correct on the first three but wrong on the fourth. I believe Frosty was fully on board with scrapping the protocol and consequences be dammed but got the rug pulled from underneath him by Johnson, who I might add has form for caving in. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2021 22:44:57 GMT
YG article on housing. Of note: - ' main issue as affordability (65%), followed by one in four (23%) who say it’s availability, and 3% who think housing quality- Three-in-five (60%) think government housing policies have had a negative impact on housing'
- Unsurprisingly, younger people are more likely to see affordability as the main issueyougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/12/17/what-are-are-problems-housing-ukRelevance: Whilst not 'the' most important issue for most folks then 'generation rent' is certainly something CON HMG have made worse and need to address if they are to turn the tide on 'demographic drift' (ie start winning a higher % of the younger age groups). It should also be 'low hanging fruit' for Starmer-Reeves to go after BTL investors, 2nd home folks, etc. Matt Singh conducted a lot of analysis on the 'rent-quake' (highly correlated with age) that gave Corbyn a boost in GE'17 and Starmer-Reeves can certainly craft policies to boost the GOTV in that demographic into GE'24 if CON HMG are not going to do anything about it - it should be a 'unifying' policy within LAB I'd have thought? |
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Dec 19, 2021 22:51:20 GMT
Is that Larry perched on Carrie's knee? I think you're wrong there. I believe it's a stuffed effigy of Mr Cummings and she's sticking darning needles into it. |
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Dec 19, 2021 22:56:01 GMT
ON Well what other nations do is of course up to them. But if you're referring to the EU as a 'polity' then the fact that it is a British idea to be able to hold politicians directly accountable and the EU doesn't allow that, then I'm sure you'll agree that we're well off out of it. Of course, the EU is a polity - composed of other polities called states, some of which are themselves composed of smaller polities. Unlike the UK, however, none of the EU states (or their sub-state polities) are so large that they control the entire union. Within the UK, it isn't possible for the polities of Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland to hold the UK government directly accountable (that privileged status is uniquely occupied by the polity of England). If you wish to retain a semblance of logic, then you would agree that Scotland, Wales and NI would be well off out of the UK for that reason alone. |
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Post by tancred on Dec 19, 2021 23:12:52 GMT
Interesting you should mention the middle class thing. Some are advocating Labour should move away from the working class and embrace the more metropolitan thing. Well, Labour did this with Blair and it was successful for many years. Personally I think Labour needs to balance the two. |
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Post by tancred on Dec 19, 2021 23:15:58 GMT
The reason Brexit was successful at the referendum - the only reason why it was successful, in my opinion - is that it was supported by groups of people with widely diverging political views on other issues. The three main supporters being English/British nationalists, right-wing liberal/libertarians and Marxists/Trotskyists. Each one of these groups had their own reasons for detesting the EU. Don't think there have ever been many in the UK who could be descibed as Marxists or Trotskyists - even in the 1960s, 70s or 80s. And most on the far left of British politics had moved towards supporting the UK's EU Membership. John McDonnell is a good example of this. Not in an extreme sense but people like Derek Hatton were definitely Marxists. I don't consider McDonnell or even Corbyn as 'far left', but simply left wing. |
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Post by tancred on Dec 19, 2021 23:21:06 GMT
js "It is a peculiarly English notion to scoff a a political appointee that has not had to win an election to the House of Commons." And that notion is wrong because it's English presumably? No, because it's just daft. |
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Post by crossbat11 on Dec 19, 2021 23:26:31 GMT
www.reuters.com/world/americas/chile-heads-polls-with-two-models-nation-stake-2021-12-19/Some edited sections from the full article (link above): - "Chilean leftist Gabriel Boric won the country's presidential runoff election on Sunday, as far-right rival Jose Antonio Kast conceded defeat with results showing a nearly 10-point gap between the deeply polarized candidates.
With over 83% of votes counted, Boric had 55.52% versus Kast's 44.48%, and his lead appeared to be widening."
"The victory caps a major comeback for Chile's progressive left since widespread protests in 2019 shone a spotlight on inequality in the country's market-orientated economic model and triggered an official redraft of the constitution."
"Boric, a 35-year-old former student protest leader whose coalition includes the Communist Party, was up against Kast, 55, a law-and-order candidate and defender of former dictator Augusto Pinochet.
Kast, who has been likened to Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro and who has become a hero to Chile's "unapologetic right," said in an open letter on Saturday that "two models for the nation are going face-to-face".
"Both candidates come from outside the centrist political mainstream that has largely ruled since Chile returned to democracy in 1990 following the years of Pinochet's military dictatorship. Both moderated their positions in recent weeks to win over centrist voters."My thoughts - An interesting change of political direction in one of the major countries of South America. With the latest polls in Brazil giving the leftist candidate, and former President, Lula 25% leads against Bolsonaro ahead of the presidential race in October 2022, the winds of change seem to be blowing through the continent. Message to EOR across the time zones. I fully intend to join you shortly in discussions on the forthcoming French Presidential elections next year. I need to get more up to speed first, and having read with interest your recent post on the current state of play in France, I'm way behind you . I will try to catch up though so I can join the chats meaningfully! France is a country I love and have always found its politics intriguing and endlessly fascinating. By coincidence, I was in Paris shortly after Francois Mitterand's win in 1981 and witnessed the jubilant Socialist hordes celebrating in the Place de Bastille. He was the first left wing politician to win the Presidency in the Fifth Republic and went on to hold the office for 14 years having been re-elected comfortably in 1988. With Labour just embarking on one of its long walks into the political wilderness at the time, the vicarious delight at Mitterand's triumph was palpable amongst the British Left. By the way, do any of the old UKPR veterans amongst us remember the name of the poster who used to regularly update us all on polls and election results from all over Europe? He was a lovely fellow who disappeared many years ago. I used to thoroughly enjoy his updates and I learned an awful lot from him. My bet is that Jim Jam can remember him.
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Post by tancred on Dec 19, 2021 23:29:26 GMT
I’ve heard this one a lot but for the life of me could never quite understand how it took hold so effectively. There aren’t any positions in the EU with legislative power which are not politically appointed by democratically elected governments. The most commonly cited example is the European Commission but its members are appointed by each of the 27 states’ governments. Sure, they’re not directly elected, but ministers in most European governments don’t have to be directly elected either. It is a peculiarly English notion to scoff a a political appointee that has not had to win an election to the House of Commons. Am I missing something here? This is what Brexiters fundamentally fail to grasp - that democracy doesn't mean having to elect every single official who works in the government. We don't elect many people who hold a lot of power and influence in our society: high court judges, CEOs of large companies, senior civil servants, chief constables of police forces, generals and admirals in the armed forces, etc. Many people who hold sway over our daily lives are unelected. The reason that they are unelected is that they are firstly controlled by legal checks and balances that are in place to prevent them from abusing their power and also that many of these high offices are accountable to the elected government. The European Commissioners operate in the same way - not elected by the people of the member states, but appointed by the elected governments of these states. What is the problem with this? |
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steve
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Posts: 12,633
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Post by steve on Dec 19, 2021 23:36:33 GMT
Expect a lockdown announcement tomorrow not because it's remotely justified but because the regime needs a squirrel to deflect attention from its own shambolic incompetence and dissembling.
F the public there's Spaffer and his chums to get off the hook.
Meanwhile the BBC decided to ignore the Spaffer party and focus on scaring the public instead.
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Post by tancred on Dec 19, 2021 23:43:31 GMT
Expect a lockdown announcement tomorrow not because it's remotely justified but because the regime needs a squirrel to deflect attention from its own shambolic incompetence and dissembling. F the public there's Spaffer and his chums to get off the hook. Meanwhile the BBC decided to ignore the Spaffer party and focus on scaring the public instead. Agreed. There will most likely be a one month lockdown from Boxing Day, and this will really pi** off a lot of retailers who rely on the post Christmas sales to get rid of old stock. The BBC is becoming a joke of a broadcaster these days. |
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Post by mercian on Dec 19, 2021 23:49:17 GMT
ON Well what other nations do is of course up to them. But if you're referring to the EU as a 'polity' then the fact that it is a British idea to be able to hold politicians directly accountable and the EU doesn't allow that, then I'm sure you'll agree that we're well off out of it. Of course, the EU is a polity - composed of other polities called states, some of which are themselves composed of smaller polities. Unlike the UK, however, none of the EU states (or their sub-state polities) are so large that they control the entire union. Within the UK, it isn't possible for the polities of Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland to hold the UK government directly accountable (that privileged status is uniquely occupied by the polity of England). If you wish to retain a semblance of logic, then you would agree that Scotland, Wales and NI would be well off out of the UK for that reason alone. Elected representatives from the three minor nations of the UK are directly elected to the UK parliament. Though because of the disparity in population they cannot command a majority on their own, they do have the ability to influence policy and to hold the UK government to account. They can vote on legislation and sometimes win albeit with assistance from other opposition MPs and/or government rebels. They can hold positions on committees for instance too. In other words they are able to influence legislation. This is not true of the EU parliament. |
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Post by mercian on Dec 19, 2021 23:56:40 GMT
Expect a lockdown announcement tomorrow not because it's remotely justified but because the regime needs a squirrel to deflect attention from its own shambolic incompetence and dissembling. F the public there's Spaffer and his chums to get off the hook. Meanwhile the BBC decided to ignore the Spaffer party and focus on scaring the public instead. Agreed. There will most likely be a one month lockdown from Boxing Day, and this will really pi** off a lot of retailers who rely on the post Christmas sales to get rid of old stock. The BBC is becoming a joke of a broadcaster these days. If there is, I think it will be widely ignored. Though it's still a bit early to say for sure, evidence seems to be that deaths from this wave are far lower than previously, so I'd be surprised if many people are very worried about it. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2021 0:09:32 GMT
As it is Stalin's 143rd birthday today, it is quite interesting to recall how he balanced between the centre of the party and the centre of the "voters" (until 1936 those who employed people had no voting right). I don't mean as a joke or as a parallel, just as a kind of thought process line (even if it takes off the path). He 'balanced' politics by sending people to the gulags in their millions and by starving to death millions of peasants who disagreed with his views. I made it very clear that it was not the purpose of my comment, but the complications of managing the two often conflicting expectations. However, because you raised 1) No, there were no millions sent to the Gulags. Most of them were sent there after WW2 anyway 2) No, there were no millions of peasants who died in hunger. It was about 600,000. The 6 million was invented so it would be a higher number than the Nazi holocaust. It included the number of people who would have been born in the next 100 years. 3) However, 700,000 people were executed in the Great Purge. 4) You didn't mentioned the displaced khulaks - many of them died. There was no popular support apart from the cities for Trotsky, but he was strong in the party, so Stalin allied with Bukharin to defeat him (and Zinovyev). In 1927 the UK broke diplomatic relationships with the Soviet Union. It was interpreted as a potential war, so industrialisation became the priority against both the centre of the party and the popolous. It broke the alliance between Stalin and Bukharin. Stalin won. Bukharin allied with the Trotskyist wing in a new year Eve meeting. It was kept quiet. Then the collectivisation (and the export of grains) coincided with the great depression and led to the need of more export in volume because of the desperate need of technology and experts. Oddly at the same time Stalin I initiated a major democratisation drive (so now we are about the voters). It was very successful (many party and business bureaucrats were openly criticised) so much so that the governors of all the areas wrote a letter to Stalin demanding to stop the democratisation. Two died of natural causes, the rest were executed in 1937. But Stalin did stop the movement and replaced it with party bureaucracy, and the movement has never come alive again. As I said, my comment was about parties and party leaders trying to manage contradictory expectations [however, I had to correct your false points, and now, as the 20th century is saying good bye, more private correspondence of historians writing about the period is available - and it is really shocking (cf. my point about the Ukrainian death due to hunger.] |
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Dec 20, 2021 0:20:40 GMT
I see Lord Frost has reneged on his agreement as to when he would leave his post, and declared it null and void because he now thinks it was a really crap agreement, so he's off in a huff immediately.
I detect a pattern here.
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 20, 2021 0:23:53 GMT
Mercian
The evidence from South Africa is that it is far less dangerous and case numbers appear to have peaked there , this doesn't mean deaths won't increase but would appear likely not to exceed a 100% increase in South Africa to around 70 a day despite a 1000%+ increase in cases.Today's figures there were 15000 down 4000 on this day last week and just three deaths.
This is also consistent with research in Hong Kong ( not yet peer reviewed but from a respected research team) which indicates that the omicron variant is primarily an upper respiratory tract infection , basically a cold.
In the UK with plenty of acquired immunity from prior infection and vaccination including a pretty decent effort on booster vaccines deaths could be lower.
Which makes some of the more alarmist suggestions of 6000 a day deaths even more unlikely and probably an order of magnitude wrong which even Neil Ferguson would be embarrassed by.
The UK isn't alone but it's looking progressively more likely that the response is totally disproportionate to the risk.
This doesn't mean government's shouldn't be prudent but I suspect most will find it very difficult to concede that they were wrong, all be it for reasonably valid reasons and reverse measures quickly.
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