c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Nov 5, 2024 15:43:26 GMT
no probs Guymonde, and yes I sympathise with what you are saying. It was a little different for me as I had been to state school first, and had older friends at home who used to take me out and about a lot, sometimes driving over to the school to sneak me out for a night out, but even so… My school was 100 miles from home in the wilds of the pennines(ish) so any of that was a bit tricky. This reminded me of my sex education. We waited for the revelation of the 'Doctor's talk' which took place when I think we reached the 6th form, one evening. We attended a classroom in the main school and the school doctor stood at the front. "I'm not going into the mechanics for you because you will have heard it from your friends. Just don't do it until you're married. If you do, you'll get a girl in trouble and you'll very likely catch VD" He may have said more but I don't remember any more! oh yeah, in eight years of private school, we just had a talk from the headmaster at the prep school one evening before we left, where he talked about it as quickly as possible for just a couple of minutes, saying “I suppose you will know about it by now anyway”. (i had received the normal classes on it at State School before boarding school anyway). |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Nov 5, 2024 15:47:09 GMT
That's a little Reductio ad absurdum, similar to saying we know some perform above average so all can perform above average, it doesn't work in real life If you pour extra resources into a child's education they will on average do better But of course there will always be exceptions and that includes schools there is also selection to consider - public schools have entrance exams and how well you do determines which schools you can apply for. State schools can have selection indirectly via catchment area. There are other factors: my school used to be in the top 10 nationally, but slid quite some way down the rankings after it decided to pursue international qualifications that they felt were better for the pupils, but which gave them far fewer points in the ranking system. (the school used to deliberately take the exams from the hardest exam board, as that could help with uni applications). I think it's quite simple, if you have one teacher teaching 15 kids against one teacher teaching 30 kids, on average the former will perform better than the latter, but of course there will always be exceptions Take football and the Premiership, the large majority of times the top 4 teams with the most money and resources will win it But very occasionally a team like Leicester will buck the trend, but that doesn't negate the fact that most time money and resources win |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Nov 5, 2024 15:52:39 GMT
Danny I wouldn't be remotely surprised to see Harris significantly overperform the polls. Well to be honest, I wouldnt either. Though Im not predicting that. Its just that there are reasons why the polling might be wrong because its got its sampling wrong. Roe v wade is one issue, but there might be problems about what groups realy like trump, and which really hate him. Its like those here saying how could you vote for such a person, but others might not think anything he has done is so bad. But is this properly represented in polling samples? I also think the republicans could be aware that while the published polls are even, they might have greater unreliability than supposed, hence the tactic of a stolen election if that comes about. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Nov 5, 2024 15:54:03 GMT
Why is this education debate always based on the assumptions :- a) Private schools are "better" than state schools and b) All State schools are the same. There are State Schools which outperform Private Schools. Perfectly true, but the issue is that private schools are always much better resourced than state ones. That is the advantage that wealth buys. The fact that some are then beaten by state schools demonstrates that some are not delivering very good value for money, which is an entirely different issue. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Nov 5, 2024 15:56:20 GMT
however, this revealed another drawback of going to private school, at least going to boarding school: you didn’t have your parents to help you with homework unlike some state school pupils. Depends how you mean. If your parents simply tell you the answers, you might get good homework scores but never learn the answers yourself so you do badly in an exam. Or, if its continuously assessed, then the fact your parents did it might give you an artificial boost. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Nov 5, 2024 15:59:33 GMT
You forget that it doesn't have to make sense to lefties. It's a bit like the MAGA cult - if someone is seen to be doing better than you, you must attack them and try to tear them down. This is preferable to trying to level things up in their view. L eft-wing politicians prefer to have an ill-educated population because they are easier to control. Flat wrong. It is overwhelmingly the case that the more highly educated people are the more likely they are to vote left of centre. It is right-wingers who want a poorly educated population that can be brain-washed by the RoC media. This was clearly visible in the Brexit vote and at every subsequent General Election. |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Nov 5, 2024 16:02:58 GMT
there is also selection to consider - public schools have entrance exams and how well you do determines which schools you can apply for. State schools can have selection indirectly via catchment area. There are other factors: my school used to be in the top 10 nationally, but slid quite some way down the rankings after it decided to pursue international qualifications that they felt were better for the pupils, but which gave them far fewer points in the ranking system. (the school used to deliberately take the exams from the hardest exam board, as that could help with uni applications). I think it's quite simple, if you have one teacher teaching 15 kids against one teacher teaching 30 kids, on average the former will perform better than the latter, but of course there will always be exceptions Take football and the Premiership, the large majority of times the top 4 teams with the most money and resources will win it But very occasionally a team like Leicester will buck the trend, but that doesn't negate the fact that most time money and resources win But what if there are some classes of 30 that always buck the trend, is possibly colin ’s point? In my day, the top-performing school, year-after-year, was not a private school but a grammar. A grammar that was super-selective. (It did go independent after direct grant was abolished). It’s quite a complex question. For a school like mine, academic performance was not the main thing for quite a lot of the pupils. It may have been sport for some, and for quite a lot of them, it was preparation for the military, as our school was a big recruiting ground for the forces. Not only that, but with boarding schools, you have a tradition, of families going back generations. So the school may accept some of the pupils, even though they weren’t going to do very well academically, because of the family link. |
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Post by colin on Nov 5, 2024 16:03:07 GMT
I think it's quote simple, if you have one teacher teaching 15 kids against one teacher teaching 30 kids, on average the former will perform better than the latter, Wilson's School Wallington which , as i posted, outperformed private schools has a pupil/teacher ratio of 16:1. National average for state secondary schools is 16.8 : 1 Its average class size is 19.6 |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Nov 5, 2024 16:10:16 GMT
however, this revealed another drawback of going to private school, at least going to boarding school: you didn’t have your parents to help you with homework unlike some state school pupils. Depends how you mean. If your parents simply tell you the answers, you might get good homework scores but never learn the answers yourself so you do badly in an exam. Or, if its continuously assessed, then the fact your parents did it might give you an artificial boost. Indeed, there are those additional aspects to it Danny. But at the time I didn’t pay a great deal of attention to those aspects, as parental assistance put in jeopardy my ability to win the form prizes and the associated book tokens and bags of fun-size Mars bars, which seemed quite important when you’re only 11 and shut away in a place where you’re only allowed to leave the grounds once a week to go to church. 😠 |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Nov 5, 2024 16:16:58 GMT
I think it's quote simple, if you have one teacher teaching 15 kids against one teacher teaching 30 kids, on average the former will perform better than the latter, Wilson's School Wallington which , as i posted, outperformed private schools has a pupil/teacher ratio of 16:1. National average for state secondary schools is 16.8 : 1 Its average class size is 19.6 Not sure where you're getting your figures from but the latest figures I can find are 'In secondary schools, the average is 22.3 pupils, whilst the average primary class has remained stable at 26.6 pupils. The average size of an infant class is 26.7. This is slightly higher than in January 2021, when the average was 26.6' It is not difficult, if you put more resources into educating children they do better, but there will always be exceptions/outliers www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2022-12-20.114749.h#:~:text=In%20secondary%20schools%2C%20the%20average,course%20of%20the%20last%20decade. |
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Post by alec on Nov 5, 2024 16:31:19 GMT
Democracy around the world:
UK - It's just over six hours until we get the first exit polls telling us who the nation voted for
Hastings - It's just over six hours until everyone can fail to notice who this small seaside town voted for
Russia - It's just over six hours before we confirm you've voted for President Putin with another huge majority
Italy - It's just over six hours until we find out how long until we have to vote in the next election
China - Don't wait up - we'll tell you who you voted for when you need to know
USA - It's just over six hours until the lawyers start telling you who you really voted for
I'm sure there are other examples.....
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Post by nickpoole on Nov 5, 2024 16:33:55 GMT
Democracy around the world: UK - It's just over six hours until we get the first exit polls telling us who the nation voted for Hastings - It's just over six hours until everyone can fail to notice who this small seaside town voted for Russia - It's just over six hours before we confirm you've voted for President Putin with another huge majority Italy - It's just over six hours until we find out how long until we have to vote in the next election China - Don't wait up - we'll tell you who you voted for when you need to know USA - It's just over six hours until the lawyers start telling you who you really voted for I'm sure there are other examples..... Supposing Trump loses and the Supreme Court doesn’t hand him it anyway … is that the Trump nightmare done? Finally? Or will he be back? |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Nov 5, 2024 16:38:38 GMT
Democracy around the world: UK - It's just over six hours until we get the first exit polls telling us who the nation voted for Hastings - It's just over six hours until everyone can fail to notice who this small seaside town voted for Russia - It's just over six hours before we confirm you've voted for President Putin with another huge majority Italy - It's just over six hours until we find out how long until we have to vote in the next election China - Don't wait up - we'll tell you who you voted for when you need to know USA - It's just over six hours until the lawyers start telling you who you really voted for I'm sure there are other examples..... Supposing Trump loses and the Supreme Court doesn’t hand him it anyway … is that the Trump nightmare done? Finally? Or will he be back? Can't see it myself, there are increasing signs of dementia, another 4 years and he'll be drinking out of non spill sippy cups |
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Post by colin on Nov 5, 2024 16:40:26 GMT
Wilson's School Wallington which , as i posted, outperformed private schools has a pupil/teacher ratio of 16:1. National average for state secondary schools is 16.8 : 1 Its average class size is 19.6 Not sure where you're getting your figures from but the latest figures I can find are 'In secondary schools, the average is 22.3 pupils, whilst the average primary class has remained stable at 26.6 pupils. The average size of an infant class is 26.7. This is slightly higher than in January 2021, when the average was 26.6' It is not difficult, if you put more resources into educating children they do better, but there will always be exceptions/outliers www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2022-12-20.114749.h#:~:text=In%20secondary%20schools%2C%20the%20average,course%20of%20the%20last%20decade. Your insistence on describing the best outcomes as "exceptions" rather than "exemplars" is an approach which will result in zero increase in Public Sector Productivity in this country. Which is what we've got :- www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-public-sector-productivity-goes-bad-worse-ons-data-shows-2024-05-03/Dominated as it is by NHS & Education you are talking about one of the two areas in Public Sector outputs where UK's economy ( not to mention the life chances of our children ) could be substantially boosted by improving productivity. And you aren't interested. Surprisingly ( to me anyway) a Labour Health Secretary doesnt share your view about averages and exceptions. I see no signs that Philipson is similarly intentioned. But we live in hope. |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Nov 5, 2024 16:42:38 GMT
Supposing Trump loses and the Supreme Court doesn’t hand him it anyway … is that the Trump nightmare done? Finally? Or will he be back? Can't see it myself, there are increasing signs of dementia, another 4 years and he'll be drinking out of non spill sippy cups I don’t wish to alarm but if they can hide it enough to get him elected, then they can “do a Biden” and replace him with Vance or whoever’s the VP. (Or could his daughter stand?) |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Nov 5, 2024 16:42:57 GMT
The barrel must be getting pretty thin by now, Mark Francois has been named shadow defence minister
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Nov 5, 2024 16:47:25 GMT
Not sure where you're getting your figures from but the latest figures I can find are 'In secondary schools, the average is 22.3 pupils, whilst the average primary class has remained stable at 26.6 pupils. The average size of an infant class is 26.7. This is slightly higher than in January 2021, when the average was 26.6' It is not difficult, if you put more resources into educating children they do better, but there will always be exceptions/outliers www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2022-12-20.114749.h#:~:text=In%20secondary%20schools%2C%20the%20average,course%20of%20the%20last%20decade. Your insistence on describing the best outcomes as "exceptions" rather than "exemplars" is an approach which will result in zero increase in Public Sector Productivity in this country. Which is what we've got :- www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-public-sector-productivity-goes-bad-worse-ons-data-shows-2024-05-03/Dominated as it is by NHS & Education you are talking about one of the two areas in Public Sector outputs where UK's economy ( not to mention the life chances of our children ) could be substantially boosted by improving productivity. And you aren't interested. Surprisingly ( to me anyway) a Labour Health Secretary doesnt share your view about averages and exceptions. I see no signs that Philipson is similarly intentioned. But we live in hope. Oh I'm very interested, but I am also well aware that to try and pretend if you have less resources you will be always better than a better resourced school is silly Private schools on average perform better than state schools on average because they are better resourced Yes there will be exceptions, but these are exceptions |
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Post by colin on Nov 5, 2024 16:47:42 GMT
Wilson's School Wallington which , as i posted, outperformed private schools has a pupil/teacher ratio of 16:1. National average for state secondary schools is 16.8 : 1 Its average class size is 19.6 Not sure where you're getting your figures from "Pupil to teacher ratios are similar to last year: 20.8 pupils per teacher in nurseries and primary schools (up 0.1 on last year), 16.8 in secondary schools (no change) and 6.5 in special and PRU schools (up 0.1)." Reporting year 2023 School workforce in England Gov.UK |
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Post by colin on Nov 5, 2024 16:50:35 GMT
Your insistence on describing the best outcomes as "exceptions" rather than "exemplars" is an approach which will result in zero increase in Public Sector Productivity in this country. Which is what we've got :- www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-public-sector-productivity-goes-bad-worse-ons-data-shows-2024-05-03/Dominated as it is by NHS & Education you are talking about one of the two areas in Public Sector outputs where UK's economy ( not to mention the life chances of our children ) could be substantially boosted by improving productivity. And you aren't interested. Surprisingly ( to me anyway) a Labour Health Secretary doesnt share your view about averages and exceptions. I see no signs that Philipson is similarly intentioned. But we live in hope. Oh I'm very interested, but I am also well aware that to try and pretend if you have less resources you will be always better than a better resorted school is silly Private schools on average perform better than state schools on average because they are better resourced Yes there will be exceptions, but these are exceptions I'm talking about the disparity between the best and worst STATE SCHOOLS. !!! "Exceptions " is a shocking and utterly depressing explanation. But I am not surprised. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Nov 5, 2024 16:50:50 GMT
The question is why , and the answer is clearly not -this is an exception-because , as i have shown in another post , the disparity between the best and the worst state schools is significant. We need to know why there is this disparity. And if we are unwilling to do so then we should stop referring to "state schools" as though they are a homogenous group. Streeting is trying to understand and emulate the performance of the best in NHS . Presumably to improve the worst. Why should Education be different.? Hmm. I am sceptical you can dismiss the wide disparity by saying its not due to exceptions. There are certainly reasons. For example, some are grammars, and the standard link above said a grammae had just come out as top performing school in exam results. I dont at all suggest that exam results is the only measure, because it should be about value added - if you start with weak or strong candidates, how well do they do at the end of their schooling. Regardless of the suggestion private schools have selective entry, yes they may do, but bottom line is they take anyone who can pay, thats rather the point. Private schools can be a lot more comprehesive in their intake than state comprehensives. In some state schools discipline is on the verge of collapse. Again this depends on your catchment area, and obviously the knowing parents will move so they are in the catchment for the right school. This will leave the worst kids concentrated in certain schools. There is a national shotage of teachers, especially good teachers. Some regard a bad school as a challenge, but sooner or later they have usually had enough. Either quit teaching or move to a school where its just easier. So not only are the worst kids bunched in some schools, so the best teachers are also likely to go to the schools with better reputations. Bad working conditions are so bad that most people who train to be teachers simply quit within a few years.
Schools are seriously under funded. This has forced them to hire cheap, inexperienced teachers. A senior very good teacher can find it hard to get a job! Under funding has destroyed the career ladder within teaching, there is a deliberately relatively high starting slary to attract applicants, but they leave once they get experience. Theres still quite high salaries for heads, which however arent enough to attract enough good heads. There is a phenomenon that you hire a head on a good salary. He works six minths then goes off sick for a year - the six months salary could be stretched out to allow recovery time. The problem is really workload which is just too much and so forces people out.
Then theres school size militating against discipline. Lack of teaching continuity militating against discipline, too many temporary staff.
Many years ago I noted theat all schools had been set a formal target to reach the average standard of all. Think about that. Bas schools are asked to aspire to reach average, but theres really nothing they can do to improve. Good schools, also strapped for cash, are told they dont need to be top, but can just be average. So...they are likely to go down. The averga e then falls, and all the schools have in effect a lower target. Self fulfilling prohecy because state schools were instucted to become mediocre.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Nov 5, 2024 17:00:28 GMT
Oh I'm very interested, but I am also well aware that to try and pretend if you have less resources you will be always better than a better resorted school is silly Private schools on average perform better than state schools on average because they are better resourced Yes there will be exceptions, but these are exceptions I'm talking about the disparity between the best and worst STATE SCHOOLS. !!! "Exceptions " is a shocking and utterly depressing explanation. But I am not surprised. My ex wife was a head teacher in a state school and a good one. But there is world of difference between catchment areas of particular schools The ability to attract the best teachers to schools in run down areas is well known You will never get all schools performing at the highest level, indeed exceeding the average is not statistically possible |
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Post by colin on Nov 5, 2024 17:13:44 GMT
The question is why , and the answer is clearly not -this is an exception-because , as i have shown in another post , the disparity between the best and the worst state schools is significant. We need to know why there is this disparity. And if we are unwilling to do so then we should stop referring to "state schools" as though they are a homogenous group. Streeting is trying to understand and emulate the performance of the best in NHS . Presumably to improve the worst. Why should Education be different.? Hmm. I am sceptical What you think is irrelevant. What I think is irrelevant. We dont have the data. The Secretary of State controls the people who do. She should ask for it and do whatever is necessary and possible to remove the inequalities in outcomes for pupils. |
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Post by neilj on Nov 5, 2024 17:17:32 GMT
Very early, but first results from Clarke County Nevada, normally a Republican for on the day votes x.com/JohnRSamuelsen/status/1853847683284496746'EDay Turnout - Clark County, NV 11/5/2024 - 9:00am Dem 8,758 (31.9%) +415 Rep 8,343 (30.4%) Other 1,0369 (37.7%) Total 27,470 The movement slowed a bit, but Dems continue to gain. A lot of voting left out there' |
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patrickbrian
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Post by patrickbrian on Nov 5, 2024 17:18:23 GMT
"Mark Francois has been named shadow defence minister"
un-be-liev-able!!!!
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Nov 5, 2024 17:20:15 GMT
The barrel must be getting pretty thin by now, Mark Francois has been named shadow defence minister   |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Nov 5, 2024 17:29:08 GMT
Predictions - presidential election
🔵 Economist - Harris 276 🎖️
🔵 Five Thirty eight - Harris 270 🎖️
🔵 Crystal Ball - Harris 276 🎖️
🔵 Nate Silver - Harris 271 🎖️
🔵 Split Ticket - Harris 270 🎖️
🔴 Decision Desk HQ - Trump 275
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steve
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Post by steve on Nov 5, 2024 17:35:34 GMT
The increase of iht on farms will almost certainly reduce the number of average size farms and lead to an increase in the land ownership of those whose property in trust status means they won't pay it anyway and never earned their wealth in the first place. Here's a list of some of the beneficiaries. You could add on our local aristo who owns tens of thousands of acres U.K. wide the 9th earl Veralum, net worth £350 million.  |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Nov 5, 2024 17:42:02 GMT
The increase of iht on farms will almost certainly reduce the number of average size farms and lead to an increase in the land ownership of those whose property in trust status means they won't pay it anyway and never earned their wealth in the first place. Here's a list of some of the beneficiaries. View AttachmentAs only 13% of farms will pay any inheritance tax I can't see how it will reduce the number of average sized farms |
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Post by alec on Nov 5, 2024 17:48:08 GMT
Some solid evidence emerging that voting patterns have changed (in terms of when people vote) since 2020 by quite a lot. In Democratic Clark county, Nevada, where it's 9.30am, Democrat registered voters voting on the day are leading Republicans by an odd percent of so, whereas at the same stage in 2020 it was Republicans up by around 24%. This means nothing, as Republicans have a 40,000 early vote lead across the state.
It also needs a massive hedge, because independent voters voting on the day are well ahead of both parties. Some believe that on the day independent voters tend to be younger, more likely to vote Harris. No one really knows. Suggestions that turnout everywhere looks high or very high. Again, no one really knows what that means, although I think it's fair to say most pollsters have shown a shift towards Harris in the last few days.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Nov 5, 2024 17:48:27 GMT
Predictions - presidential election 🔵 Economist - Harris 276 🎖️ 🔵 Five Thirty eight - Harris 270 🎖️ 🔵 Crystal Ball - Harris 276 🎖️ 🔵 Nate Silver - Harris 271 🎖️ 🔵 Split Ticket - Harris 270 🎖️ 🔴 Decision Desk HQ - Trump 275 Between 270-276 for Harris and the Republicans will go berserk. Probably in the law courts and Congress rather than the streets, but even that will still be grim. |
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