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Post by barbara on Nov 4, 2024 12:27:44 GMT
How can the people in the arena listen to him and still support him when they can see live with their own eyes he is lying? Truly a cult. |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
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Post by pjw1961 on Nov 4, 2024 12:29:33 GMT
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Post by alec on Nov 4, 2024 12:32:01 GMT
steve - sometimes throwing money and support at an industry doesn't end up helping them. This is particularly true in farming, where there is a physical and very hard limit to the critical resource, land. One former chief economist of the NFU - not an anti agriculture warrior - came to the conclusion that farm subsidies had made farmers poorer, because of the huge uplift in the price of land they caused, arguing that government needed to withdraw support to make farming more viable. I'd like to see more done to correct the market imbalance between supermarkets & producers, market corrections like that, rather than pump up the price of land through cash incentives. That's how we can help farmers.
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Post by bardin1 on Nov 4, 2024 12:32:13 GMT
bardin1 Thanks. Two of my children are teachers and I advised them to do some sort of other job first, which they both did. It's a similar situation to MPs. They both look at their colleagues who went school-university-teaching and realise that they are all very naive about the real world. My son teaches secondary school, and had one boy who didn't cause trouble but showed little interest in schoolwork. One day there was a class about careers. When he asked this boy about possibly going on to further or higher education he said he wasn't interested. Why not? My dad's a blacksmith and I'm already helping him and that's what I'll do. My son said "Fair enough" and moved on. Nice anecdote There is a very good example of that in the quasi documentary French film Etre et Avoir with a farmer's son who can't do maths but is already driving a tractor for the family farm |
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Post by pete on Nov 4, 2024 14:24:57 GMT
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Post by John Chanin on Nov 4, 2024 14:25:09 GMT
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Post by pete on Nov 4, 2024 14:27:42 GMT
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Post by turk on Nov 4, 2024 14:28:34 GMT
Is it true Labour are set to raise tuition fees today. I can’t believe after all Starmer has said about reducing fees in opposition he would u turn and raise them.
I suspect it’s just a newspaper story rather than fact to be fair.
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
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Post by pjw1961 on Nov 4, 2024 14:51:14 GMT
Is it true Labour are set to raise tuition fees today. I can’t believe after all Starmer has said about reducing fees in opposition he would u turn and raise them. From the Guardian - the background: "Warnings have been mounting throughout the year about the state of university finances - and there have been several crunch points along the way. New rules introduced by the last Conservative government at the start of the year made it harder for international students to bring family members with them. Then came a currency crisis in Nigeria. Both set alarm bells going for universities. They have become increasingly reliant on the higher fees paid by international students, many of whom are Nigerian, as fees for students from the UK have not kept up with inflation. It's sparked serious concern that a university could go bust, and vice-chancellors called on the Labour government a few weeks ago to stabilise their finances by increasing funding and raising tuition fees. Universities then said last week that they had been squeezed even further by an increase in national insurance contributions. The government will be hoping that increasing tuition fees could help offset that." |
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Post by graham on Nov 4, 2024 14:55:34 GMT
Is it true Labour are set to raise tuition fees today. I can’t believe after all Starmer has said about reducing fees in opposition he would u turn and raise them. From the Guardian - the background: "Warnings have been mounting throughout the year about the state of university finances - and there have been several crunch points along the way. New rules introduced by the last Conservative government at the start of the year made it harder for international students to bring family members with them. Then came a currency crisis in Nigeria. Both set alarm bells going for universities. They have become increasingly reliant on the higher fees paid by international students, many of whom are Nigerian, as fees for students from the UK have not kept up with inflation. It's sparked serious concern that a university could go bust, and vice-chancellors called on the Labour government a few weeks ago to stabilise their finances by increasing funding and raising tuition fees. Universities then said last week that they had been squeezed even further by an increase in national insurance contributions. The government will be hoping that increasing tuition fees could help offset that." We need to revert to the system of finance which operated when Starmer was himself a student in the early 1980s. |
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Post by shevii on Nov 4, 2024 14:58:47 GMT
That judgment I think is for after the result. If the result is a small Trump win (the criteria being marginal wins in each of the swing states even if he has a big EC majority) then you'd have to say the polls were accurate. A small Harris win (with the same criteria that she wins most of the swing states by a small margin) would be margin of error stuff. If either of them wins one or all of the swing states by a significant margin in each state, then the polls were rubbish! I'm not seeing too much obviously wrong with the polls other than the after the event judgment of herding if they are wrong and a query over how each swing state can be that close. |
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
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Post by pjw1961 on Nov 4, 2024 15:15:29 GMT
We need to revert to the system of finance which operated when Starmer was himself a student in the early 1980s. I have sympathy for that, in that I also benefited from having a grant. However, you do have to recognise that a much smaller proportion of people got degrees in those days. That is the problem that would have to be solved. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Nov 4, 2024 15:20:53 GMT
So many polls came out in the last couple of days, indeed in the last couple of hours thar it's hard to see the full picture
I'm concentrating on Pennsylvania, I think if Harris wins that she'll also win Michigan and Wisconsin and so win the Presidency
Pennsylvania is very, very tight in the polls, so have looked at early voting to help
At the moment Democrat registered voters are leading Republican ones 57% to 33%
Female voters (more likely to vote Democrat) are leading males 56% to 43%
My tuppence is on Harris to win
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Post by jib on Nov 4, 2024 15:21:25 GMT
If he loses, he's probably looking at more legal issues and possible jail time too. |
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
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Post by pjw1961 on Nov 4, 2024 15:24:06 GMT
Incidentally, the tuition fees business does not break any kind of manifesto commitment. Here is the relevant section of the Labour manifesto, which could be reasonably described as 'vague'. "Labour will continue to support the aspiration of every person who meets the requirements and wants to go to university. We recognise that UK higher education creates opportunity, is a world-leading sector in our economy, and supports local communities. To better integrate further and higher education, and ensure high-quality teaching, Labour’s post-16 skills strategy will set out the role for different providers, and how students can move between institutions, as well as strengthening regulation. We will act to improve access to universities and raise teaching standards. The current higher education funding settlement does not work for the taxpayer, universities, staff, or students. Labour will act to create a secure future for higher education and the opportunities it creates across the UK. We will work with universities to deliver for students and our economy." labour.org.uk/change/break-down-barriers-to-opportunity/ |
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Post by colin on Nov 4, 2024 15:48:42 GMT
colin - I'm happy to agree that the particular quote Butler endorsed about Badenoch was crass and stupid, if that helps. I wouldn't be surprised if she loses the whip for a while. Here is a much better piece by Nasrine Malik on why Badenoch's leadership of the Tory party does not represent a success for Black British people - in fact rather the opposite. Badenoch has been able to achieve that position by consistently pushing a pro-colonial view, by denying that ethnic minorities face structural racism and by claiming that black communities do not exist. I don't doubt her sincerity in believing this stuff, but it is all very congenial and comforting to the ears of the right-wing elite. When you do that you become part of the problem rather than part of the solution. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/nov/04/kemi-badenoch-ethnic-minority Thanks-I doubt she will lose the whip. An interesting article from Malik. A more intellectual way of saying the same thing that Butler agreed with.imo :- "It’s not just anyone who gets to the top in British politics, but those who adhere to a particular story – one in which their experience, success and racial identity allow them to undermine the concerns of other ethnic minorities and attack those minorities for not toeing the line in terms of their “integration” or political values"A case based firmly in the belief that skin colour should be a political identifier .I prefer Badenoch's hope that skin colour will become no more significant than eye colour ( tv interviews last weekend). I thought Malik's view that the elevation of Sunak & Badenoch in the Conservative Party was an "experiment" in light of the party's dwindling "prospects" was an ingenious way to dismiss them both-if a little desperate. Her appellation " problematic people of colour " was much a more convincing representation of her skin colour obsession. I tried a few of the links to sources behind her characterisation of Badenoch opinions and found a number which were shall we say selective précis. Though I dont disagree that some are controversial. As to your own versions of her opinions , thought I would try to respond with the presumed sources. @"pushing a pro-colonial view,""“I don’t care about colonialism because i know what we were doing before colonialism got there.
“They came in and just made a different bunch of winners and losers.”
“There was never any concept of ‘rights,’ so people who lost out were old elites not every day people.”This seems a bit more nuanced. I suppose its based on her experience in Nigeria. And I read that she is a student of the 2024 Nobel Economics Prize winners' book Why Nations Fail. So there is a context here but as so often , she seems in too much of a hurry and just leaves a sound byte to be picked over. @"denying that ethnic minorities face structural racism"
I suppose this is her post Sewel Report remarks . "Let me be clear, the report does not deny that institutional racism exists in the UK. Rather, the report did not find conclusive evidence of it in the specific areas it examined. It reaffirms the Macpherson report’s definition of the term but argues it should be applied more carefully and always based on evidence."also :- "It is right to say that the picture painted by this report is complex - particularly in comparison with the way issues of race are often presented.
The report shows that disparities do persist - that racism and discrimination remain a factor in shaping people’s life outcomes. And it is clear about the fact that abhorrent racist attitudes continue in society, within institutions, and, increasingly, online. It calls for action to tackle this.
However, the report also points out that while disparities between ethnic groups exist across numerous areas, many factors other than racism are often the root cause. Among these are geography, deprivation, and family structure. For example, a Black Caribbean child is ten times more likely than an Indian child to grow up in a lone parent household.
And disparities exist in different directions. People from South Asian and Chinese ethnic groups have better outcomes than the white population in more than half of the top 25 causes of premature death."@" black communities do not exist."This is the reaction to the shooting of gangster Chris Kaba. The Standard reported :- "Writing in The Times, Badenoch says statements by Labour figures, including London Sadiq Khan who sent his “heartfelt sympathies” to gangster Kaba’s family and friends, “all show the same thing”.
She said: “Too many of the predominantly left-wing ruling class still see black people as a homogeneous, monolithic bloc.
“It is insulting, reductive, patronising and discriminatory. The comments are just a new version of the old racist trope that all black people are the same and have the same thoughts.”"
She has expressed other thoughts in this area in a Times report :- " “Until recently, Africans came here from middle-class homes to go to university and, if we stayed around, we worked in banks,” she says. “Whereas the Windrush generation came to do working-class jobs: driving buses, nursing.”The two groups also have a historically different relationship with British imperialism. “In Nigeria, there are more than 300 different languages,” says Badenoch, who spoke Yoruba before English, “and our history goes back thousands of years. And yes, there was a period of colonialism: some people came, they did some things and they left. But that is not our story. In the Caribbean, that is a profound part of their history, which creates a different mindset towards this country. And what is really sloppy and lazy is anyone assuming all black people have the same issues, the same experiences of discrimination. It is very, very complex.”So. my view is that , like Malik, your brief characterisations of what she said don't fully represent her words -or meaning. But I hasten to add that for such a bright intelligent and articulate person, she often seems too reluctant to explain fully what she means in interviews , leaving behind a brief bullet point or two to be picked apart by all and sundry. This weekends tv interviews were symptomatic with her comments on the lockdown parties. She didn't explain why she believed that the covid restrictions should not have been mandatory. (And the interviewer should have reminded her that the rest of the population accepted that they were !.) She is a different sort of politician i think. Not given to looking for the triangulated reply to a question. She will upset many for sure , and if you're like Malik with a committed political belief she will be the gift that keeps giving. But whether you, I or Nasrine Malik think she is talking sense is of no relevance. If she cant convince people who didnt vote Con last time she will crash and burn. She actually said in that brief acceptance speech that her task was to get new voters and members. So she knows the risks. |
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Post by pete on Nov 4, 2024 15:50:18 GMT
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Post by alec on Nov 4, 2024 16:11:27 GMT
Slightly more encouraging, although many commentators are going for Trump with 297 EC votes.
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Post by mercian on Nov 4, 2024 16:25:13 GMT
Mercian, let me prompt your memory, Frank Hester was the major Tory Donor who said that looking at Dianne Abbot makes you 'want to hate all Black People and that she should be shot' this came to light shortly before the last GE. Despite this The Conservative Party including The then Prime Minister Sunak, the now leader Badenoch and the failed candidate Cleverly and former Chancellor Kwarteng or indeed any of their Cabinet colleagues did not recommend cutting ties with the odious Hester or suggest returning the donation. Indeed the Party went on to trouser another £5million from him during the Election Campaign. You may not be aware that Dianne Abbot receives more hate mail, racist and misogynist abuse Online and directly than any other MP. Can you explain what turns repeating a racist trope about Black People all looking the same into a Joke, is it the laughing Emoji? Thanks for the information about Hester. Regarding the joke, it was something that used to be said and I was repeating it to mock that attitude and perhaps the leftie stereotype of how I think. The laughing emoji was to help the humourless. |
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Post by turk on Nov 4, 2024 16:26:59 GMT
Well as much as I don’t want to believe it I think Trump may well win tomorrow he’s latest policy of punitive trade restrictions on Mexico unless they police there boarders with troops will certainly appeal right across the board in the US and to be fair if he does win the Democrats will have nobody to blame but themselves ,the millions of illegal immigrants that have crossed the boarder from Mexico during there watch is staggering.
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Post by graham on Nov 4, 2024 16:29:07 GMT
We need to revert to the system of finance which operated when Starmer was himself a student in the early 1980s. I have sympathy for that, in that I also benefited from having a grant. However, you do have to recognise that a much smaller proportion of people got degrees in those days. That is the problem that would have to be solved. To gain a place on a degree course in that era applicants needed to demonstrate serious academic ability . Since the early 1990s that has gradually ceased to be the case - with the result that we now have many students who by the standards of earlier decades are not very academic - indeed many would likely have left school after O Levels back in the 50s, 60s & 70s. By lowering standards of entry the system has effectively been ruined for everybody as reflected in the devaluation of degrees as qualifications. The less academic lose out in paricular - by incurring significant debt for a doubtful return. |
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Post by Rafwan on Nov 4, 2024 16:29:59 GMT
Definitely getting a bit salty, pete. |
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Post by mercian on Nov 4, 2024 16:37:45 GMT
Would those be companies which used to be british, with operations here, which have been bought out by foreigners? So its just they still have some activities here before taking the entire company abroad? Or while EDF is a French not US company, similar examples where the company pretty much has to operate in the UK, but now all profits go abroad?
Since Dyson stuck his head above the parapet, an interesting example of a british company still british owned, but which chose to move abroad, to Singapore. Hardly in any sense can he be described as investing in Britain.
Don’t know what proportion used to be British companies. But the number is 30 percent up on part year, a rather rapid increase. Has the number of Brit companies brimg bought out by the US increased that fast? Or have a lot of US companies set up here, possibly as a hedge against a Trump victory? |
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Post by mercian on Nov 4, 2024 16:45:25 GMT
colin - I'm happy to agree that the particular quote Butler endorsed about Badenoch was crass and stupid, if that helps. I wouldn't be surprised if she loses the whip for a while. Here is a much better piece by Nasrine Malik on why Badenoch's leadership of the Tory party does not represent a success for Black British people - in fact rather the opposite. Badenoch has been able to achieve that position by consistently pushing a pro-colonial view, by denying that ethnic minorities face structural racism and by claiming that black communities do not exist. I don't doubt her sincerity in believing this stuff, but it is all very congenial and comforting to the ears of the right-wing elite. When you do that you become part of the problem rather than part of the solution. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/nov/04/kemi-badenoch-ethnic-minority But isn't the idea of ethnic communities with their own 'community leaders' likely to lead to more divisiveness and racism (from both sides). Surely it's better for every citizen to be treated the same? |
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Post by alec on Nov 4, 2024 16:47:15 GMT
Great result in the presidential election, with the sensible woman defeating the man who is the Kremlin's choice.
Yes, Maia Sandu's win in Moldova shows that good things can sometimes happen! Another country voting to get closer to Brussels and further away from Moscow.
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steve
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Post by steve on Nov 4, 2024 17:02:33 GMT
Priti Patel appointed shadow foreign secretary.
War criminal Benjamin Netanyahu will be delighted to have his agent back in the senior ranks of the Tory party.
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steve
Member
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Post by steve on Nov 4, 2024 17:09:42 GMT
I assume jib will be along in a minute to say that the increase in tuition fees will for at least the next 15 years mean the public will not trust Labour.
He can feature pictures of Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves alongside those from his memory chest of Clegg and Alexander.
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Post by mercian on Nov 4, 2024 17:13:02 GMT
If he loses, he's probably looking at more legal issues and possible jail time too. Insurrection first! I hope the army is on standby. A load of rednecks with guns will take a bit of stopping. |
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Post by leftieliberal on Nov 4, 2024 17:13:48 GMT
Ben Ansell on Substack cautiously optimistic of a Harris win. I’m going to write a post that contradicts what I said on TV a few days earlier. Which I guess officially makes me a pundit....Harris Wins Big (40%)
Predicted vote share: Harris 51, Trump 47.5
States won: Harris - MI, PA, WI, NV, GA, NC; Trump AZ
I’ll be honest, I wouldn’t have picked this option a few days ago. But I think - well, guess - that this is now the most likely of the four outcomes. So this is my modal outcome and you can call it my prediction and laugh at me when it proves wrong.
It’s not just me being influenced the Ann Selzer poll of Iowa, which to extraordinary surprise had Harris leading Trump by 3 in a state he defeated Biden in by 8. But that helped shore up a suspicion I have had that the way pollsters have adjusted their models this year hasn’t quite worked.
...I think Harris is more likely to win than Trump (65/35).I would have liked a median outcome rather than a modal outcome, which can be misleading if the distribution is very skewed. Essentially, narrow victories for Harris or Trump are both at 25% and Trump winning big is at 10%.
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Post by mercian on Nov 4, 2024 17:18:37 GMT
Great result in the presidential election, with the sensible woman defeating the man who is the Kremlin's choice. Yes, Maia Sandu's win in Moldova shows that good things can sometimes happen! Another country voting to get closer to Brussels and further away from Moscow. When I read the first line I thought you were jumping the gun on the US election result!  |
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