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Post by mercian on Jul 5, 2024 18:03:32 GMT
Well said. Labour used to be the party of the white working class but that hasn't really been true for decades. They still have working class MPs of course - e.g. Angela Rayner and Jess Philips but both of those rely on asians voting for them. Labour still pay lip service to supporting the WWC (though of course they daren't mention the word 'white') - it's 'working people' nowadays. Most of their support now seems to come from ethnic minorities and university-educated white people who look down on the working class. It's no wonder a lot of WWC voters look for alternatives. What policies that favour white people would you like to see? Genuine question. It's not a question of favouring white people it's just that the establishment seem to consider ethnic minorities more important, or deserving of special treatment. There are many examples. Here's a recent one:- news.sky.com/story/raf-recruiters-were-advised-against-selecting-useless-white-male-pilots-to-hit-diversity-targets-12893684One particular policy that would help the WWC would be to drastically reduce legal and illegal immigration. As one example, some of the legal immigrants are students, but students are allowed to bring in dependents - why? There were over 150,000 of these in the year ended June 2023. Many of these dependents will be competing with the WWC and their children for jobs, keeping wages down. |
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Post by mercian on Jul 5, 2024 18:04:33 GMT
STV with constituencies of 5-7 members, except in special cases such as islands (with AV for by-elections, because by-elections are fun and I want to keep them). My preference is the voting system that we previously used in EU elections. There have been several different ones over the years. Anything more specific? |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jul 5, 2024 18:11:33 GMT
Worth noting the Labour cabinet has the first female chancellor. The first housing secretary who's actually lived in social housing. The first education secretary who was on free school meals.
In the Cabinet 84% went to Comprehensives, 6% to State Grammar Schools.
In previous Government's since 2010 60% went to private schools. Even in Atlee's Government 25% went to private schools
Why is this important, because for the first time we have a Government which better reflects the country and the lived experience of it's people
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Post by mercian on Jul 5, 2024 18:19:12 GMT
Well said. Labour used to be the party of the white working class but that hasn't really been true for decades. They still have working class MPs of course - e.g. Angela Rayner and Jess Philips but both of those rely on asians voting for them. Labour still pay lip service to supporting the WWC (though of course they daren't mention the word 'white') - it's 'working people' nowadays. Most of their support now seems to come from ethnic minorities and university-educated white people who look down on the working class. It's no wonder a lot of WWC voters look for alternatives. No, Labour was/is/should be the party that has the interests of the 'working class' (no qualifier) foremost in mind. Quite right. I stand corrected. I suppose I was subconsciously thinking back to the days when the WWC more or less was the working class. The fact remains that many white working class people feel marginalised and overlooked by politicians. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Jul 5, 2024 18:21:30 GMT
Goddam reform get the last word by scraping Thurrock by 98 votes after recount. Not quite the last word - it seems we are not going to get the Inverness, Skye and West Ross result until Saturday. EDIT - I'm guessing the contenders would most likely be SNP and Lib Dems. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jul 5, 2024 18:25:06 GMT
We talk about how efficient Labour's operation was but the Lib dems ran a very successful campaign. They won every seat they targeted bar Jeremy Hunt's, in every part of the country. x.com/alexmassie/status/1809289557558325322'Blimey! One hell of a coup for Angus MacDonald, taking back part of Charlie Kennedy's old stamping ground for the Lib Dems. A truly remarkable campaign for the Libs: they only campaigned in six Scottish seats and they won all six.' |
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Post by Rafwan on Jul 5, 2024 18:25:48 GMT
Does anyone know why Inverness, Skye and West Ross-shire is so delayed? do not know but I'm going on holiday there next week so I will ask around. We are in Tobermory at the moment (watched everything on a tiny monitor in our room in the Western Isles Hotel). Nobody here seems to have a clue why it all took so long (and, er, most don’t really seem to care)! |
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Post by mercian on Jul 5, 2024 18:26:00 GMT
Well said. Labour used to be the party of the white working class but that hasn't really been true for decades. They still have working class MPs of course - e.g. Angela Rayner and Jess Philips but both of those rely on asians voting for them. Labour still pay lip service to supporting the WWC (though of course they daren't mention the word 'white') - it's 'working people' nowadays. Most of their support now seems to come from ethnic minorities and university-educated white people who look down on the working class. It's no wonder a lot of WWC voters look for alternatives. What is it with your obsession with the colour of people’s skin?!? It’s very weird. Given your prejudice I imagine you must be much happier with the prospective Labour front bench than the last Tory one (yesterday…) Or aren’t you bothered so long as they’re bloody rich? It's actually nothing to do with colour it's to do with culture which includes religion of course. As it happens, the vast majority of immigrants are of a different colour so it's an easy shorthand to identify the native people. I wouldn't be particularly happy if say there were millions of Frenchmen here including half the cabinet. Or Germans or Americans or whatever. A few is fine. |
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Post by neilj on Jul 5, 2024 18:37:01 GMT
An astute appointment
'Sir Patrick Vallance KCB has been appointed Minister of State (Minister for Science) in the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology'
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Post by somerjohn on Jul 5, 2024 18:38:08 GMT
t7g4: "If PR were to be achieved, what would be everyone's preferred PR system?"
I think Roy Jenkins got it right many years ago: AV Plus.
Except that I think the Plus element (the top-up which maintains proportionality) should be based on a regional 'best losers' system, rather than party lists.
My reasons are:
1. I think relatively small one-member constituencies, as opposed to large multi-member STV constituencies, help to retain a stronger local identity and are more understandable.
2. The ranking-in-order-of-preference system is easy to understand and intuitively fair. Every directly elected MP has got there by achieving over 50% support, including second, third etc choices.
3. It eliminates fear of a wasted vote and pressure to vote tactically rather than express your real preference. Everyone can put their real preference first, safe in the knowledge that that won't let the opposition in.
4. Using 'best loser' top-up takes power away from the party bureaucrats who would control party lists and puts it in the hands of voters. It rewards candidates who have worked hard and built up a large (but losing) level of support.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Jul 5, 2024 18:47:38 GMT
An astute appointment 'Sir Patrick Vallance KCB has been appointed Minister of State (Minister for Science) in the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology' That should be good for a few mad right-wing conspiracy theories. Something like "Deep state socialist Labour mole tricked Boris Johnson into unnecessary lock downs to steal the public's freedom." Add that to Sue Gray, and clearly it was all a Labour conspiracy to bring down brave, battling people's hero Boris. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Jul 5, 2024 18:48:44 GMT
do not know but I'm going on holiday there next week so I will ask around. We are in Tobermory at the moment (watched everything on a tiny monitor in our room in the Western Isles Hotel). Nobody here seems to have a clue why it all took so long (and, er, most don’t really seem to care)! What's the story in Tobermory, wouldn't we like to know? |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Jul 5, 2024 18:51:46 GMT
t7g4: "If PR were to be achieved, what would be everyone's preferred PR system?"I think Roy Jenkins got it right many years ago: AV Plus. Except that I think the Plus element (the top-up which maintains proportionality) should be based on a regional 'best losers' system, rather than party lists. My reasons are: 1. I think relatively small one-member constituencies, as opposed to large multi-member STV constituencies, help to retain a stronger local identity and are more understandable. 2. The ranking-in-order-of-preference system is easy to understand and intuitively fair. Every directly elected MP has got there by achieving over 50% support, including second, third etc choices. 3. It eliminates fear of a wasted vote and pressure to vote tactically rather than express your real preference. Everyone can put their real preference first, safe in the knowledge that that won't let the opposition in. 4. Using 'best loser' top-up takes power away from the party bureaucrats who would control party lists and puts it in the hands of voters. It rewards candidates who have worked hard and built up a large (but losing) level of support. That part is not wholly true as the best loser will probably come from a known strong-ish seat and the party can still control which candidates stand in which seats. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jul 5, 2024 18:51:59 GMT
Another good appointment, James Timpson (of Timpson fame) is given a peerage and will be prisons minister
His credentials
'Known for advocating the employment of former prisoners, he was the Chair of the Employers Forum for Reducing Re-offending (EFFRR) until 2016, and became Chair of the Prison Reform Trust[1] that same year. He also founded the Employment Advisory Board network across the prison estate, which links prisons with employers to improve the employment opportunities for ex-offenders upon release'
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Post by shevii on Jul 5, 2024 18:53:18 GMT
Election maps have their pollster rankings: x.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1809220572460577076So Norstat and Verian come top which is interesting. People Polling came last (who would have expected that!). Surprised to see More In Common (and JLP Partners) up the top as they didn't instinctively feel right and I'm sure their MRPs were poor if not their headline voting intention. Yougov credible still (5th out of 17). Sometimes it can be unfair to judge on a final poll and I personally feel that Yougov recognised a lot of the trends before other pollsters did. I think the post mortem on MRP's is what we'd already recognised. They came come close to the actual result by working out patterns of voting for different demographics now we have less uniform swing, but they are dreadful when it comes to "special circumstances". Certainly didn't get to grips with the Reform vote and the exit poll was especially bad in that respect. |
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Post by Danny on Jul 5, 2024 18:59:15 GMT
Worth noting the Labour cabinet has the first female chancellor. The first housing secretary who's actually lived in social housing. The first education secretary who was on free school meals. In the Cabinet 84% went to Comprehensives, 6% to State Grammar Schools. In previous Government's since 2010 60% went to private schools. Even in Atlee's Government 25% went to private schools Why is this important, because for the first time we have a Government which better reflects the country and the lived experience of it's people How does getting free school meals improve your ability as a government minister to find extra money for education, or anything else? My point is, I am not clear labour was ever short on motivation to help poor kids, its the resources which is the issue. |
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Post by Danny on Jul 5, 2024 19:04:29 GMT
No, Labour was/is/should be the party that has the interests of the 'working class' (no qualifier) foremost in mind. Quite right. I stand corrected. I suppose I was subconsciously thinking back to the days when the WWC more or less was the working class. The fact remains that many white working class people feel marginalised and overlooked by politicians. The red wall is supposedly full of post industrial left behind working class. The ones Thather made redundant, who are now pensioners. Plus presumably their equally unemployed progeny. The other day I was scrolling through BBC catchup and came across David Attenborough introducing zoo quest from the 1960s. The program involved an expedition to Africa to catch animals for London zoo. But a good chunk of it was filming native peoples scantily clad doing tribal dances living in pretty rudimentary conditions. Presumably this is the closest contact those red wall towns had with anyone non white in the 1960s. An interesting impression they must have been left with. |
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Post by thylacine on Jul 5, 2024 19:05:10 GMT
10 days ago Labour were hovering just above 40 in the polls. Two days ago they were about 38. Yesterday 33. So Polls showed trend but not outcome. Where did all the support go, leaving labour to make such an efficient conversion of votes into seats. The crucial defeat of Mordaunt contrasts with the fortuitous survival of the hard right: Braverman, Badenoch & Patel. As Mandleson said Mordaunt (never tested) would fight Reform, while the others, from whom the next leader is quite likely to be chosen, would try to become it It's very sad but there is a very obvious reason why Badenoch, Cleverly , Braverman and Patel will never be able to bring back those reform defectors no matter how much they court them. Reform uk are racist, to pretend otherwise is liberal lunacy. Farage is not dog whistling he is simply telling you who he is .I suppose that leaves Jenrick ? |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jul 5, 2024 19:08:43 GMT
Another good appointment, James Timpson (of Timpson fame) is given a peerage and will be prisons minister the government will need more people in the lords. So appoint some. |
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Post by mercian on Jul 5, 2024 19:12:08 GMT
An astute appointment 'Sir Patrick Vallance KCB has been appointed Minister of State (Minister for Science) in the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology' Is he an MP? |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jul 5, 2024 19:17:38 GMT
An astute appointment 'Sir Patrick Vallance KCB has been appointed Minister of State (Minister for Science) in the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology' Is he an MP? No, doesn't need to be and unlike people such as David Frost, he's an expert in his field...I suppose that would disqualify him from any tory Government |
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Post by mercian on Jul 5, 2024 19:28:02 GMT
t7g4: "If PR were to be achieved, what would be everyone's preferred PR system?"I think Roy Jenkins got it right many years ago: AV Plus. Except that I think the Plus element (the top-up which maintains proportionality) should be based on a regional 'best losers' system, rather than party lists. My reasons are: 1. I think relatively small one-member constituencies, as opposed to large multi-member STV constituencies, help to retain a stronger local identity and are more understandable. 2. The ranking-in-order-of-preference system is easy to understand and intuitively fair. Every directly elected MP has got there by achieving over 50% support, including second, third etc choices. 3. It eliminates fear of a wasted vote and pressure to vote tactically rather than express your real preference. Everyone can put their real preference first, safe in the knowledge that that won't let the opposition in. 4. Using 'best loser' top-up takes power away from the party bureaucrats who would control party lists and puts it in the hands of voters. It rewards candidates who have worked hard and built up a large (but losing) level of support. Sounds a good system. |
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Post by mercian on Jul 5, 2024 19:32:16 GMT
No, doesn't need to be and unlike people such as David Frost, he's an expert in his field...I suppose that would disqualify him from any tory Government So are there any limits on this? Could a non-parliamentarian be Chancellor of the Exchequer for example? |
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Post by mark61 on Jul 5, 2024 19:34:10 GMT
Worth noting the Labour cabinet has the first female chancellor. The first housing secretary who's actually lived in social housing. The first education secretary who was on free school meals. In the Cabinet 84% went to Comprehensives, 6% to State Grammar Schools. In previous Government's since 2010 60% went to private schools. Even in Atlee's Government 25% went to private schools Why is this important, because for the first time we have a Government which better reflects the country and the lived experience of it's people How does getting free school meals improve your ability as a government minister to find extra money for education, or anything else? My point is, I am not clear labour was ever short on motivation to help poor kids, its the resources which is the issue. Danny, your lived experience clearly informs your views not least in terms of Education and other matters on which you post, do you not think it's the same for Politicians? |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jul 5, 2024 19:37:44 GMT
No, doesn't need to be and unlike people such as David Frost, he's an expert in his field...I suppose that would disqualify him from any tory Government So are there any limits on this? Could a non-parliamentarian be Chancellor of the Exchequer for example? Wouldn't be very practicable for one of the great offices of state to not be in Parliament. Cameron was of course Foreign secretary, but he was in the Lords. Valance is a Junior Science Minister |
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Post by mercian on Jul 5, 2024 19:45:13 GMT
neiljSo is Starmer going to dole out life peerages so he can appoint whoever he wants? I understand the new Attorney-general is from outside too. It seems a dangerous precedent to me. At least Cameron had been elected at one time and had parliamentary experience. Just imagine what an uproar there'd be if Sunak had won and he started appointing his mates who'd never even stood for election.
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Post by alec on Jul 5, 2024 19:49:07 GMT
@rafwan - "Nobody here seems to have a clue why it all took so long (and, er, most don’t really seem to care)!" Probably because it's the wrong constituency.  |
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Post by johntel on Jul 5, 2024 19:50:18 GMT
The Liberal Democrats are poised to pick up an additional Westminster seat after the Scottish National party’s candidate conceded defeat in a closely-fought contest in the Highlands.
The seat of Inverness, Skye and Ross-shire – the last constituency in the UK to declare, was to be decided on Saturday after being subjected to a technical recount after discrepancies in voting tallies, which is due to start at 10.30am.
But the SNP candidate Drew Hendry, who had been defending the seat against a strong Liberal Democrat attack headed by its candidate Angus Macdonald, has written to his supporters stating that he expects to lose on Saturday.
The Guardian
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Jul 5, 2024 19:55:34 GMT
No, doesn't need to be and unlike people such as David Frost, he's an expert in his field...I suppose that would disqualify him from any tory Government So are there any limits on this? Could a non-parliamentarian be Chancellor of the Exchequer for example? Come to that it is only "custom and practice" that the Prime Minister is an MP or member of the Lords. In theory the King could ask anyone to be PM if it was believed he or she could command a majority in parliament. The delights of having no written constitution. |
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Post by lefthanging on Jul 5, 2024 19:58:29 GMT
neilj So is Starmer going to dole out life peerages so he can appoint whoever he wants? I understand the new Attorney-general is from outside too. It seems a dangerous precedent to me. At least Cameron had been elected at one time and had parliamentary experience. Just imagine what an uproar there'd be if Sunak had won and he started appointing his mates who'd never even stood for election. This isn't a Starmer innovation - all governments do this. The last one did anyway. One example is Jim O'Neil. |
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