steve
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Post by steve on Jun 18, 2024 12:18:28 GMT
robbiealiveIt is indeed our intent, the liberal democrats have consistently opposed it. If we had a national I.d card as many European union countries do it wouldn't be an issue but as we don't the ad hoc irrational choices of what constitutes acceptable i.d undermines democratic access. "Being able to vote is a fundamental democratic right. Yet thanks to the Conservatives, it’s now at risk - with millions potentially facing being disenfranchised at the next election. These measures disproportionately impact the young, ethnic minorities and people with disabilities Jacob Rees-Mogg, who was a Cabinet Minister when the voter ID law was introduced, has described Voter ID as an attempt to 'gerrymander' elections in the Conservatives' favour. At the 2022 elections, there were 13 cases of alleged personation investigated - and no further action was taken in any of those cases. In the 2023 local elections, at least 14,000 voters were turned away from polling stations because of the new rules. Voter ID is like using a sledge hammer to crack a nut. The Conservatives’ Voter ID scheme will cost £120m over the next decade - a massive waste of taxpayers’ money. Voter ID must be scrapped. Liberal Democrats are leading the fight against this deeply unfair scheme. The Liberal Democrats in both the House of Commons and the Lords consistently led opposition to the introduction of the Voter ID law. "
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jun 18, 2024 12:22:03 GMT
Of course it's not just students that can register to vote in two places, second home owners can also do the same. In fact they could have many homes and register to vote in each Really? That is shocking. So the richer you are, the more votes you can buy. Edit - reading on, I may well have misinterpreted this as being the chance to vote multiple times rather than register multiple times. If so, apologies. Edit 2 😐 just seen Neil’s post below - cheers mate. 👍 |
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Post by ping on Jun 18, 2024 12:32:42 GMT
On Thursday, I plunge into the badlands of Redditch itself to do some door-knocking... Are door-knockers as troublesome as letterboxes? What other problems lie in wait for the canvasser? Less likely to cause injury, but I do have my bugbears: 1) Bells that make no sound (at least, no sound that can be heard from the outside) so you're never quite sure if you've pressed them sufficiently hard 2) The absence of any apparent bell/knocker. I end up giving the door a hefty knock with my fist 3) Spy cameras/mics (this is particularly dangerous when you're cursing the letterbox) 4) Literal bells and gongs (I mean, come on! Who's going to hear them?) 5) The door is slightly open, but no one is there... happens at least a few times each session 6) Apartment buildings! Such a faff to access and, assuming you manage, you have to enter in pairs due to the health and safety risk of being in an enclosed space with an angry resident 7) I don't mind notices saying "no cold callers, no canvassers" etc. and I, of course, respect those wishes by skipping the house. However, I once saw one saying: "No canvassers; we know what we're voting." and I was really tempted to knock just to explain that the point of canvassing isn't really to persuade people to vote for you, but to identify your voters so you can turf them out on election day Oooh, that was strangely cathartic... thank you for hearing me out. There's a whole other list for when people actually open the door  |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jun 18, 2024 12:34:45 GMT
Of course it's not just students that can register to vote in two places, second home owners can also do the same. In fact they could have many homes and register to vote in each Really? That is shocking. So the richer you are, the more votes you can buy. Like students you're only allowed to vote in one Constituency in a General Election In local elections there are no restrictions |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jun 18, 2024 12:39:38 GMT
... it is hard to work the Guardian out, apart from their obvious nostalgia for the days when the Liberal Party was a major player. That they hated Corbyn was not a surprise but they seem pretty hostile to Starmer as well, which is less expected. Admittedly I've read very little of the Guardian's election coverage, but my impression is that they've been cheerleading very enthusiastically for Lab … ] I’ve paid a lot of attention to it and that’s not my impression at all. I have no doubt they’d prefer Labour to the Tories but their attitude to Labour is lukewarm at best. As PJW said earlier, they are very hard to work out but I suspect they yearn to be able to again one day, say “if not now, when” about their true loves. Edit: just seen PJW’s response in this. Spot on, sadly. |
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Post by leftieliberal on Jun 18, 2024 12:59:36 GMT
Scottish Westminster Voting Intention: LAB: 34% (-5) SNP: 30% (+1) CON: 13% (+1) LDM: 8% (=) RFM: 7% (+3) GRN: 6% (-1) Via @yougov , 3-7 Jun. Changes w/ 13-17 May. A 4 point Lab lead is close to the recent average for all Scottish Westminster polls. This is also true for the 4 Scottish YouGov polls so far this year, which have shown Labour leading by 2,1, 10 and now 4 points. We've now had 8 Scottish Westminster polls and MRPs from YouGov and Survation since the election was called. Nearly all of these are in the range of a Labour lead in Scotland of 0-6 points, but with two big outliers: an R&W with Labour 10% ahead, and the Survation MRP with SNP 7 points ahead. Already more than ten days old though! But almost identical to the Norstat poll (11-14 June) Lab 34%, SNP 30%, Con 14% LibDem 9%, Reform 7%, Green 4%, others 2%. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jun 18, 2024 13:02:21 GMT
Admittedly I've read very little of the Guardian's election coverage, but my impression is that they've been cheerleading very enthusiastically for Lab … ] I’ve paid a lot of attention to it and that’s not my impression at all. I have no doubt they’d prefer Labour to the Tories but their attitude to Labour is lukewarm at best. As PJW said earlier, they are very hard to work out but I suspect they yearn to be able to again one day, say “if not now, when” about their true loves. Edit: just seen PJW’s response in this. Spot on, sadly. The relationship between it's probably largely Labour supporting, brexit averse liberal readership and the Guardian strikes me as a bit like that of someone in a psychologically abusive, gas-lighting relationship. The Guardian doesn't validate their views and make them feel good about them but rather tells them why they should be afraid, angry/defensive or why they've got things completely wrong. After a period of not reading it going back to it's main page often induces an involuntary chortle as they do their daily level best to induce anxiety in their liberal readership and attempt to give the persistent sense of impending catastrophe with their red flashing headlines. Yet they keep coming back for more. |
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Post by leftieliberal on Jun 18, 2024 13:17:08 GMT
I’ve paid a lot of attention to it and that’s not my impression at all. I have no doubt they’d prefer Labour to the Tories but their attitude to Labour is lukewarm at best. As PJW said earlier, they are very hard to work out but I suspect they yearn to be able to again one day, say “if not now, when” about their true loves. Edit: just seen PJW’s response in this. Spot on, sadly. The relationship between it's probably largely Labour supporting, brexit averse liberal readership and the Guardian strikes me as a bit like that of someone in a psychologically abusive, gas-lighting relationship. The Guardian doesn't validate their views and make them feel good about them but rather tells them why they should be afraid, angry/defensive or why they've got things completely wrong. After a period of not reading it going back to it's main page often induces an involuntary chortle as they do their daily level best to induce anxiety in their liberal readership and attempt to give the persistent sense of impending catastrophe with their red flashing headlines. An ex- Guardian journalist has told me that many of their journalists went to public schools (I don't know how to test this, but I haven't known him to be untruthful otherwise), so it may affect both their choice of subjects and the way they write about them. This is certainly true of George Monbiot and Polly Toynbee, but not of John Harris and Owen Jones. I don't think it is any coincidence that of all Guardian writers, I trust what John Harris writes the most. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Jun 18, 2024 13:17:19 GMT
Rishi Sunak today: "This election there is a very clear choice. The future of our country is at stake, we are living in uncertain times, people need to decide who’s got the clearest plan and the boldest ideas to deliver a more secure future."
Sorry Rishi, but I think they already have.
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Post by norbold on Jun 18, 2024 13:17:52 GMT
I've just been asked to give an interview to Euronews about Clacton. Does anyone know anything about Euronews? Am I safe?
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jun 18, 2024 13:18:58 GMT
If you’re a Labour voter like me who doesn’t ever count on the Guardian supporting Labour then you’ll never be disappointed by them.
Always feels like they want to influence Labour policies but not want much to do with the party itself. That’s their call of course, but as I’ll say again - they are no friend, let alone a true friend of Labour.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jun 18, 2024 13:24:01 GMT
I find it striking that the Tory papers and the tories themselves are complaining about a Labour super majority (a meaningless phrase) that will subvert the democratic process
These same people were gloating about Johnson's 80 seat majority in 2019
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Jun 18, 2024 13:25:16 GMT
An ex- Guardian journalist has told me that many of their journalists went to public schools (I don't know how to test this, but I haven't known him to be untruthful otherwise), so it may affect both their choice of subjects and the way they write about them. This is certainly true of George Monbiot and Polly Toynbee, but not of John Harris and Owen Jones. I don't think it is any coincidence that of all Guardian writers, I trust what John Harris writes the most. In partial defence of the Guardian, they are not as resolutely 'on message' propagandists as much of the Tory press (the Express for example), instead allowing a range of voices from fairly left (Jones) to liberal centre (Toynbee). On the whole that is a good thing. My irritation is about the overall nagging negativity they have displayed of late. I knew they would hate Corbyn, but you would think Starmer was just their sort of thing but apparently not. |
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Post by joeboy on Jun 18, 2024 13:28:22 GMT
Yay, we just voted! We did have a brief moment of wondering whether it was right to interfere in the governance of a country we no longer reside in, then remembered this was Ireland and England we were talking about, what's sauce for the goose!
Anyway based on the returns from North Wexford it looks like a Labour landslide in Epsom and Ewell😊
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Jun 18, 2024 13:28:42 GMT
I've just been asked to give an interview to Euronews about Clacton. Does anyone know anything about Euronews? Am I safe? Says here it is sort of owned by Victor Orban! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euronews |
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Post by joeboy on Jun 18, 2024 13:35:24 GMT
I've just been asked to give an interview to Euronews about Clacton. Does anyone know anything about Euronews? Am I safe? RTE use it as their overnight TV news channel, so I assume it's quite mainstream. |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Jun 18, 2024 13:39:05 GMT
An ex- Guardian journalist has told me that many of their journalists went to public schools (I don't know how to test this, but I haven't known him to be untruthful otherwise), so it may affect both their choice of subjects and the way they write about them. This is certainly true of George Monbiot and Polly Toynbee, but not of John Harris and Owen Jones. I don't think it is any coincidence that of all Guardian writers, I trust what John Harris writes the most. In partial defence of the Guardian, they are not as resolutely 'on message' propagandists as much of the Tory press (the Express for example), instead allowing a range of voices from fairly left (Jones) to liberal centre (Toynbee). On the whole that is a good thing. My irritation is about the overall nagging negativity they have displayed of late. I knew they would hate Corbyn, but you would think Starmer was just their sort of thing but apparently not. Well he’s gone cold on Rejoin for a start, which is pretty core to the more euroliberal. Now, that may be artifice on Starmer’s part, but they might worry that it isn’t. Incidentally the Telegraph does have a range of views. There are Keynesians, and those to the left of Keynesians even, who don’t just want government investment in a downturn as a stimulus to recovery, they want more government investment in better times. That’s where I find out about some of the investment going on here and abroad, and things like fusion and solar. They are impressed by Biden’s green investments. Some of them are also concerned about wages, and are pleased that they have been going up for some lately, in contrast to those right-wingers who like to drive down wages to lower prices, some of whom prefer the Guardian. But when it comes to the EU, both Guardian and Telegraph have a bias in that they are both rather pro-capital, so they both tend to leave out some of the lefty critiques. Larry Elliot does bits though. Then there is the way they treat data. If someone like the OBR publishes a projection that suits their view, one paper might celebrate it, but if it’s revised later to counter their view, they might not give it so much attention. In truth, a lot of projections wind up being out, and every time you publish one, it might be an idea to quickly highlight their record on projections, and how past projections have been flawed. They might also highlight key assumptions on which a projection is based. For example, the assumption of a GDP hit on Brexit, due to assumptions on things like falling immigration and falling investment… But when in practice immigration actually increases significantly rather than falls, and investment doesn’t fall as much as they thought…* * read the other day, that investment been falling since the 90s anyway, so how much is due to Brexit may be summat else. (Despite it falling a somewhat, IIRC there was a recent Ernst & Young piece saying that we are still second in Europe for investment, which dud surprise a little tho’ haven’t checked up on it yet) |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Jun 18, 2024 13:52:30 GMT
Are door-knockers as troublesome as letterboxes? What other problems lie in wait for the canvasser? Less likely to cause injury, but I do have my bugbears: 1) Bells that make no sound (at least, no sound that can be heard from the outside) so you're never quite sure if you've pressed them sufficiently hard 2) The absence of any apparent bell/knocker. I end up giving the door a hefty knock with my fist 3) Spy cameras/mics (this is particularly dangerous when you're cursing the letterbox) 4) Literal bells and gongs (I mean, come on! Who's going to hear them?) 5) The door is slightly open, but no one is there... happens at least a few times each session 6) Apartment buildings! Such a faff to access and, assuming you manage, you have to enter in pairs due to the health and safety risk of being in an enclosed space with an angry resident 7) I don't mind notices saying "no cold callers, no canvassers" etc. and I, of course, respect those wishes by skipping the house. However, I once saw one saying: "No canvassers; we know what we're voting." and I was really tempted to knock just to explain that the point of canvassing isn't really to persuade people to vote for you, but to identify your voters so you can turf them out on election day Oooh, that was strangely cathartic... thank you for hearing me out. There's a whole other list for when people actually open the door Excellent work ping, feel free to supply the extra info. wrt door-opening! (Others’ experiences also welcome) |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Jun 18, 2024 13:56:57 GMT
c-a-r-f-r-e-w perhaps a Yes Minister quote is needed  : "Hacker: Don't tell me about the press. I know exactly who reads the papers. The Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the country; The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country; The Times is read by the people who actually do run the country; the Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country; the Financial Times is read by people who own the country; the Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be run by another country, and the Daily Telegraph is read by people who think it is.Sir Humphrey: Prime Minister, what about the people who read The Sun? Bernard: Sun readers don't care who runs the country, as long as she's got big tits."
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Post by norbold on Jun 18, 2024 13:57:01 GMT
I've just been asked to give an interview to Euronews about Clacton. Does anyone know anything about Euronews? Am I safe? Says here it is sort of owned by Victor Orban! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EuronewsI've just been asked to give an interview to Euronews about Clacton. Does anyone know anything about Euronews? Am I safe? RTE use it as their overnight TV news channel, so I assume it's quite mainstream. Thank you both. |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Jun 18, 2024 14:02:38 GMT
An ex- Guardian journalist has told me that many of their journalists went to public schools (I don't know how to test this, but I haven't known him to be untruthful otherwise), so it may affect both their choice of subjects and the way they write about them. This is certainly true of George Monbiot and Polly Toynbee, but not of John Harris and Owen Jones. I don't think it is any coincidence that of all Guardian writers, I trust what John Harris writes the most. In partial defence of the Guardian, they are not as resolutely 'on message' propagandists as much of the Tory press (the Express for example), instead allowing a range of voices from fairly left (Jones) to liberal centre (Toynbee). On the whole that is a good thing. My irritation is about the overall nagging negativity they have displayed of late. I knew they would hate Corbyn, but you would think Starmer was just their sort of thing but apparently not. I tend to find a lot of negativity in the press regarding politics, because most of them, one-way or another, are anti-state, so aren’t really very keen on the state doing much. The more neoliberal in the Telegraph and the Mail et cetera, prefer the private sector to be doing things, while the more euroliberal might prefer if the EU is doing it. Even when the Telegraph might be pleased about some government investment, they might hope that as it starts to yield fruit, it will be hived off to the private sector. Which does quite often happen. One of the things that helped us move faster in the pandemic vaccination thing, was that the state had invested in building a vaccine innovation Centre. Unfortunately, it was a year away from being fully operational, so it could only make a partial contribution, but it did play a part in speeding things up for us, for example, by being able to donate very large vats to Astrazeneca. However, once it became fully operational Johnson sold the f*cker off IIRC 🙄 |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jun 18, 2024 14:06:29 GMT
Focal Data
More evidence of Labour VI has stabilised
Labour’s lead has climbed to 22 points in the latest
@focaldatahq
poll, with Reform at another record high.
🔴 LAB: 43% (+1)
🔵 CON: 21% (-3)
🟣 RFM: 16% (+1)
🟠 LDM: 10% (+1)
🟢 GRN: 5% (-)
Fieldwork 14–17 June
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steve
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Post by steve on Jun 18, 2024 14:07:56 GMT
leftieliberal*An ex-Guardian journalist has told me that many of their journalists went to public schools (I don't know how to test this, but I haven't known him to be untruthful otherwise), so it may affect both their choice of subjects and the way they write about them. This is certainly true of George Monbiot and Polly Toynbee, but not of John Harris and Owen Jones. I don't think it is any coincidence that of all Guardian writers, I trust what John Harris writes the most. " This is true of all national newspapers and media outlets over 50% of all journalists went to public school. It's why they have such a collective wasp up their arse over vat on school fees.
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Post by crossbat11 on Jun 18, 2024 14:11:02 GMT
In relation to the Guardian, I think it's important to distinguish between its editorial stance as expressed in its unattributed daily leading articles, which remain broadly sympathetic to Labour, and the political commentary it provides an outlet for. This ranges from Owen Jones to Katy Balls and just about all points in between between. Centrists like Behr, Harris and Kettle feature as much as commentators like Beckett, Jones, Malik and Chakrabortty, who are clearly on the Corbynite left and very critical of Starmer. Centre right columnists like Simon Jenkins are regulars, as are Balls and McEvoy. Even when Milne was Comments Editor he gave column space to writers like Julian Glover and Ian Burrell (both Cameron speechwriters). I quite like that diversity of opinion and it makes for, as pjw1961 has said, a newspaper that's at times difficult to categorise. A cheerleader for the Labour Party it is clearly not, but I don't have the slightest problem with that. I've always got the option to pick and choose who and what I read and it is the only newspaper in the UK that provides anything like this sort of platform for such a wide range of views.
As leftieliberal has said, John Harris is the stand out commentator for me, closely followed by Behr. Harris is often brilliantly off the wall, mainly because he is often out and about, visiting places and talking to people. Colin used to quaintly call these people "real voters".
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Post by athena on Jun 18, 2024 14:29:19 GMT
OK, I was curious enough to do a modest amount of digging into why pjw1961 and I have such different impressions of the Guardian's attitude towards Starmer's Lab. I went back through recent headlines (5 online pages' worth - earliest seem to be from Sunday's Observer - which is not really a big enough sample but there's a limit to the time I was prepared to waste) and tallied stories about Lab and the LDs, ignoring the leaders but including other commentary pieces: | Lab (pro): | 6 news stories; 2 comment pieces; 3 profiles | | Lab (anti): | 6 news stories; 2 comment pieces | | Lab (neither): | 4 news stories | | LD: | 2 (1 lukewarm; 1 positive) |
I'm surprised the Guardian's given the LDs so little coverage - they've had more attention on the podcasts I've listened to. The sheer volume of coverage of Lab relative to the other parties has probably contributed to my impression that the Graun is more supportive than usual. P.S. Out of that lot I've read exactly one article (anti - the Lab peer who had a go at Rosie Duffield and then said sorry) |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Jun 18, 2024 14:31:40 GMT
Morgan McSweeney might have a Blair-like ability to sense what the average voter wants from the Labour party, but when it came to timely candidate selection he couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery.
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Jun 18, 2024 14:33:02 GMT
I’ve paid a lot of attention to it and that’s not my impression at all. I have no doubt they’d prefer Labour to the Tories but their attitude to Labour is lukewarm at best. As PJW said earlier, they are very hard to work out but I suspect they yearn to be able to again one day, say “if not now, when” about their true loves. Edit: just seen PJW’s response in this. Spot on, sadly. The relationship between it's probably largely Labour supporting, brexit averse liberal readership and the Guardian strikes me as a bit like that of someone in a psychologically abusive, gas-lighting relationship. The Guardian doesn't validate their views and make them feel good about them but rather tells them why they should be afraid, angry/defensive or why they've got things completely wrong. After a period of not reading it going back to it's main page often induces an involuntary chortle as they do their daily level best to induce anxiety in their liberal readership and attempt to give the persistent sense of impending catastrophe with their red flashing headlines. Yet they keep coming back for more. Indeed domjg. The media have so much real-time info. now on what headlines and themes get the clicks and eyeballs, and they tailor the articles to suit. Believe it or not, over at the Telegraph, the regular commentators are not only complaining about this, they are even complaining about the number of articles that demonise the EU. Brexiters are complaining about the stream of headlines predicting the imminent collapse of the EU! |
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Post by athena on Jun 18, 2024 14:42:11 GMT
Morgan McSweeney might have a Blair-like ability to sense what the average voter wants from the Labour party, but when it came to timely candidate selection he couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery. From the outside it looks as if Lab has done a more effective parachute operation than the Tories. Whole slew of favoured candidates slotted into safe seats, mostly with minimal fuss. Compare and contrast with Richard Holden's clumsy attempts to fix himself a safe seat or Douglas Ross's extraordinary maladroitness in Scotland. And no disowned candidates (yet). |
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steve
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Post by steve on Jun 18, 2024 14:47:40 GMT
"I am pleased that the BBC acknowledge that support for Reform UK has been growing in this election.
We must now be included in the head-to-head debate with Sunak and Starmer on June 26th."
Farage's limited company according to polls is likely to win between 0 and 5 seats, the liberal democrats are l0 likely to win between 40 and 80 seats and stand a reasonable chance in the event of a Tory meltdown of being the official opposition.
It's blindingly obvious who should be included in the debate and it's not the hate gimp.
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Post by shevii on Jun 18, 2024 14:59:34 GMT
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