c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Jun 17, 2024 21:23:05 GMT
Well he has a point. “Franz Joseph Otto Robert Maria Anton Karl Max Heinrich Sixtus Xavier Felix Renatus Ludwig Gaetan Pius Ignatius von Habsburg” to give him his full name was both the heir to the Hapsburg throne and a prominent MEP who favoured expansion of the EU. He was only allowed to visit Austria in the 1960s when he renounced his claim to the Austrian throne. www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/04/otto-von-habsburg-obituaryHis Dad once made my great Grandad the equivalent of a Duke in the Austro Hungarian empire (I still have his sealing ring) but that’s a story for another day. Austria Hungary was a state or rather two states manacled ill elegantly together since the mid 1800s. In that sense it was not all that different to the UK of the time which of course contained Ireland as well as Scotland and Wales. The EU is an assortment of states who voluntarily pool some level of sovereignty. Bohemia or Croatia didn’t quite have that level of agency vis a vis Vienna. Is it hard to imagine if the boot had been on the other foot a situation where a Germany and Austria victorious in ww1 impose a settlement on the UK where Ireland or even Scotland are hived off? I suspect Carswell liked the superficially simple comparison but didn’t care for the details of either history or of the actual workings of the EU. According to wiki, Austria-Hungary was the last phase of the Habsburg Empire, and according to Google “Habsburgs were at one time or other rulers of what are now Spain and Portugal, Belgium, Luxembourg, and the Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Bosnia and Croatia, the Czech Republic (previously Bohemia and Moravia), Slovakia and Slovenia, as well as parts of Italy, Poland, Romania, Moldova, Serbia, and Ukraine.” Adnittedly this is rather outside my comfort zone and am happy to have more info. on the matter. (Carswell did a degree in history incidentally, and there’s a chance they might have covered the Habsburgs) |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Jun 17, 2024 21:25:07 GMT
“You’ve got to be in one of the big teams to survive (or at least thrive). It’s all about power” - The Netherlands seem to do pretty well and I don’t hear much complaining from Ireland. In fact the EU has their back in brexit controversies with the UK. It magnifies power for small countries. I think that’s the point I was making. You get shared power as the reward of shared sovereignty. There are alternative models of shared sovereignty though. We are still linked with the EU, we are now in the CPTPP relationship, WTO, NATO, UN, WHO etc. etc., some would like us to have closer ties with the US etc. |
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eor
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Post by eor on Jun 17, 2024 21:30:29 GMT
I might be wrong, and to be honest I have no idea, but I had the impression that Carswell was locally popular because he was openly racist. If one looks across long term trends across western democracies (and I'm including the UK, even though it clearly undemocratic), most nations have around 10% of the electorate who are out and out Nazis, supplemented by around 15% with racist tendencies. It's not surprising that that the occasional constituency with a disproportionate number of racist voters crops up. It's not surprising that Farage chooses to stand there. He's made similar choices in the past. My memory of Carswell was the opposite. It was that he was very anti EU, but not anti immigration. In fact I seem to remember that when challenged he distanced himself from some of Farage’s comments. So of course not someone who I would ever vote for due to their associations, but better than most of his ilk. I never met him though. Also I could be wrong and would be “happy” to be put right. Anyway I would say he came across as OK for a Tory. Best of a bad bunch etc. etc. Like Bernard Jenkin my MP. But maybe this was just a facade he put up. So obviously he fell out with Farage (as most people end up doing TBH of course). I thought that was (most publicly at least) about the Short money? That Farage wanted Carswell to claim for the maximum that he was technically entitled to claim as the sole post-election MP from 4 million votes, and Carswell told him it would be obscene for one MP to pretend to need like 20 staff or whatever it would have worked out as? (if this turns out to be one of those tricksy recollection things then my apologies in advance!) |
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steve
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Post by steve on Jun 17, 2024 21:30:32 GMT
pjw1961“Franz Joseph Otto Robert Maria Anton Karl Max Heinrich Sixtus Xavier Felix Renatus Ludwig Gaetan Pius Ignatius von Habsburg” to give him his full name was both the heir to the Hapsburg throne and a prominent MEP. I challenge alec to be make an anagram out of that politician's name! " Is it Mat? I might have missed out a letter
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Jun 17, 2024 21:42:21 GMT
All I said was no more of this Labour VI going down business, and the polling gods duly heard me and stopped messing about.  Anyway, another 73 houses leafleted this evening, so that'll stop the rot. 73??? I delivered 421 leaflets this afternoon whilst incapacitated by both a dodgy knee and copiously bleeding left hand, two fingers of which has been snapped clean off by a particularly awkward letter box at Number 73 Acacia Gardens. I completed the last ten houses whilst crawling on all fours, the remaining leaflets secured in my slobbering mouth. The very last house I arrived at I delivered the rather damp and limp leaflet by inserting it, directly by mouth, whilst lying prone on the doorstep. They had one of those bloody bottom of the door letter flaps Rather embarrassingly, the householder opened the door while I was doing so. She was initially shocked and then rather impressed with my obvious devotion to the Labour cause. 73 leaflets? You don't know when you were born. 🤔😆 c100 on Friday evening, c130 on Saturday morning, c140 on Sunday morning, c105 on Sunday afternoon and 73 tonight, 553 in total. I also received the delivery of the next 175 this evening. And all that is true, whereas I fear that part of your story may be at RefUK manifesto levels of accuracy. |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Jun 17, 2024 21:44:03 GMT
All I said was no more of this Labour VI going down business, and the polling gods duly heard me and stopped messing about. Anyway, another 73 houses leafleted this evening, so that'll stop the rot. 73 leaflets? You don't know when you were born. 🤔😆 I think he does know batty, he put it in his username so he wouldn’t forget |
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Post by jen on Jun 17, 2024 21:46:13 GMT
Delta Labour lead by 27 points in our latest poll. Con 19% (-2) Lab 46% (-) Lib Dem 10% (+1) Reform 16% (+4) SNP 2% (-2) Green 5% (-) Other 1% (-1) Fieldwork: 14th - 17th June 2024 Sample: 1,383 GB adults (Changes from 6th - 8th June 2024) This is interesting. Labour becalmed, SNP in full retreat, the Reform VI increase just about within the margins of error and the Tories stubbornly hanging on to their core vote. It would be a brave man to call this with two and a half weeks still to go, millions undecided and the Muslim vote time bomb ticking away in hundreds of Labour seats. This ain't over until Andrew Neil sings is my considered view. If you say so. Not the feeling I'm getting on the street. What would I know? The random cross section of people I meet every day is probably bigger than the number of people they polled in Scotland as a whole... |
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Post by jen on Jun 17, 2024 21:47:49 GMT
Ah, I understand. So he was a well meaning thick person with no understanding of the realities of international trade, nor of basic economics? Carswell considered the EU as “essentially Habsburg in origin”. I’m not sure exactly what he himself means by this, but others who have commented on similarities between the Habsburg Empire and the EU, Kind of see the EU as a doomed Empire much as the Habsburg Austrian-Hungarian empire was doomed. They may tend to see all empires as being doomed, and prefer the nation state instead. People who like supranational organisations may feel the opposite, they don’t necessarily care for the nation state. So, exactly as I surmised. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Jun 17, 2024 21:48:03 GMT
pjw1961 “Franz Joseph Otto Robert Maria Anton Karl Max Heinrich Sixtus Xavier Felix Renatus Ludwig Gaetan Pius Ignatius von Habsburg” to give him his full name was both the heir to the Hapsburg throne and a prominent MEP. I challenge alec to be make an anagram out of that politician's name! " Is it Mat? I might have missed out a letter It is always possible that those are actually just the names of Jacob Rees-Mogg's children. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2024 21:49:20 GMT
It can be painful to follow England or Scotland at times, but spare a thought for Belgian supporters over the last 15 years. All those great players and in tournament football precious little to show for it.
1. Support you own team regardless.
2. In other games, support the underdog
Always admire the skills on display.1 and 2 are always going to be the same for you. |
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Post by robbiealive on Jun 17, 2024 21:49:40 GMT
Thanks. More generalized evidence. Fine. But we need a context. The other broadcasters are also over-publicising Farage?? If they are, and we dont know, then the BBC is not uniquely biased, but is in line with Sky, ITN etc. Unless of course you believe the BBC shud be held to a higher standard than other broadcasters. In which case that idealized standard has to be defined. Data referring solely to the BBC do not really cut it? “Unless of course you believe the BBC shud be held to a higher standard than other broadcasters” - Licence fee. Public service remit. Thanks v fair point. But all TV broadcasters are subject to strict rules about political bias? The most biased, GB News. ignores the rules with impunity. Nothing is done. Does that enrage you. |
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Post by crossbat11 on Jun 17, 2024 21:50:02 GMT
73 leaflets? You don't know when you were born. 🤔😆 I think he does know batty, he put it in his username so he wouldn’t forget Good point, Carfers. He's a bit of a whippersnapper compared to some of us if that user name reveals his birth year. I thought it referred to the year that Essex last had a decent cricket side. I must admit that I'm surprised, and rather offended too, that he doubted the accuracy of my account of my leafleting expedition earlier today. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jun 17, 2024 21:50:34 GMT
pjw1961 “Franz Joseph Otto Robert Maria Anton Karl Max Heinrich Sixtus Xavier Felix Renatus Ludwig Gaetan Pius Ignatius von Habsburg” to give him his full name was both the heir to the Hapsburg throne and a prominent MEP. I challenge alec to be make an anagram out of that politician's name! " Is it Mat? I might have missed out a letter It is always possible that those are actually just the names of Jacob Rees-Mogg's children. It would be quite hard to keep track of your own name.. |
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Post by jen on Jun 17, 2024 21:52:39 GMT
I would just like to say what an excellent day we have had on UKPR2 with a significant number of very good posts. Of course the polls issued today have been a big help in my enjoyment. I would also like to congratulate Jen re her chioce of language and some very good comments. I have even given her several likes which I refuse to do when she uses the F word. In that case fuck off. |
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Post by bardin1 on Jun 17, 2024 21:53:37 GMT
Well he has a point. “Franz Joseph Otto Robert Maria Anton Karl Max Heinrich Sixtus Xavier Felix Renatus Ludwig Gaetan Pius Ignatius von Habsburg” to give him his full name was both the heir to the Hapsburg throne and a prominent MEP. I challenge alec to be make an anagram out of that politician's name! I think its a complete set of scrabble tiles |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jun 17, 2024 21:54:43 GMT
“Unless of course you believe the BBC shud be held to a higher standard than other broadcasters” - Licence fee. Public service remit. Thanks v fair point. But all TV broadcasters are subject to strict rules about political bias? The most biased, GB News. ignores the rules with impunity. Nothing is done. Does that enrage you. Yes but so few people watch it that it matters far less. Also you know what you're getting with GB News. Many rely on the BBC to give them a more or less accurate reflection of reality and while that's never easy these days they seem to barely try. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Jun 17, 2024 21:55:54 GMT
I think he does know batty, he put it in his username so he wouldn’t forget Good point, Carfers. He's a bit of a whippersnapper compared to some of us if that user name reveals his birth year. I thought it referred to the year that Essex last had a decent cricket. I must admit that I'm surprised, and rather offended too, that he doubted the accuracy of my account of my leafleting expedition earlier today. Ahem, 6 county championships and 6 one day titles between 1979 and 1992 suggests Essex were quite decent in that period. 2 more championships, the Bob Willis trophy and 6 more one day titles from 1997 to date. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jun 17, 2024 21:56:03 GMT
I would just like to say what an excellent day we have had on UKPR2 with a significant number of very good posts. Of course the polls issued today have been a big help in my enjoyment. I would also like to congratulate Jen re her chioce of language and some very good comments. I have even given her several likes which I refuse to do when she uses the F word. In that case fuck off. Personally I think swearing's fucking great. It's known for it's therapeutic properties. |
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Post by RAF on Jun 17, 2024 21:58:56 GMT
The reason why Farage gets more airtime than practically anyone else is because he offers faux revolutionary ideas in very Establishment friendly wrapping.
Ultimately, he doesn't plan to disturb any of the sacred cows of UK politics. He doesn't threaten the artistocracy, he doesn't threaten the super rich. He doesnt worry the Ciry. He doesn't even challenge the bulk of the Press.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jun 17, 2024 22:01:29 GMT
More in Common Our latest voting intention poll finds it’s all steady & Labour keep a 16 pt lead over the Conservatives 🔵 CON 25% (-) 🔴 LAB 41% (-) 🟠 LIB DEM 11% (+1) 🟣 REF UK 14% (+1) 🟢 GRN 5% (-) 🟡 SNP 2%(- 1) Dates 14-16/6, N=2,369 Tables: Unadjusted VI: LAB 43 CON 23 RFM 12 LDM 10 GRN 6 Nothing really moving at all. I’ll take that all day long. 🌹 |
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Post by crossbat11 on Jun 17, 2024 22:02:26 GMT
Good point, Carfers. He's a bit of a whippersnapper compared to some of us if that user name reveals his birth year. I thought it referred to the year that Essex last had a decent cricket. I must admit that I'm surprised, and rather offended too, that he doubted the accuracy of my account of my leafleting expedition earlier today. Ahem, 6 county championships and 6 one day titles between 1979 and 1992 suggests Essex were quite decent in that period. 2 more championships, the Bob Willis trophy and 6 more one day titles from 1997 to date. I refer you to Jen's last post. |
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eor
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Post by eor on Jun 17, 2024 22:02:52 GMT
Yes and no - as a weapon available to moderators to rein in someone who's derailing it then very much yes. If it's used a default from the start, then combined with the lack of studio audience it realistically means the moderators become the sole check on candidates ignoring the questions and just making endless rehearsed statements and generally talking past each other for 90 minutes. Sure they'll interject at times to try to press for a more direct answer etc but they can't do it very often or they'll quickly run out of time. If I were being very cynical (moi?) I'd even go so far as to suggest that might be a key reason this rather unusual "debate" seems to be happening at all - a negotiated format that minimises the risk to either and lets two candidates who declined every invitation to debate their rivals for their respective party nominations both say "there, we did it, we did Debating" and go back to their much preferred styles of campaigning. But we know from past experience Trump will constantly interrupt from the start Best to set the ground rules from the off so all knowthe rules. If they do it half way through Trump will claim a conspiracy to silence him - the distinction I was making was between two different things I'd seen quoted; one saying that the moderators would "have every tool" available including being able to just turn off mics if needed, the other that mics were only going to be switched on when it was each candidate's designated time to speak. I very much agree with the former approach, whereas I think the latter would be too sterile and indeed vulnerable to dumbing it down even further than usual. steve - like you I wouldn't be entirely surprised if this "debate" were to yet get derailed, I was very surprised when it was announced in the first place. The risks for either don't really seem worth it to me. Tho after chatting to a Dem friend earlier, it's possible I actually wasn't being cynical enough in my assessment last night! They reckon a key reason for Biden and Trump agreeing to do this months earlier than usual is because it enables them to exclude RFK Jr on the basis that he's not yet on the ballot in enough states to be a viable candidate for President... which is in turn because most states are still going through the nomination processes for 3rd party candidates. Quite the irony given the main point of these debates in a normal year is to level the playing field |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Jun 17, 2024 22:08:31 GMT
I think he does know batty, he put it in his username so he wouldn’t forget Good point, Carfers. He's a bit of a whippersnapper compared to some of us if that user name reveals his birth year. I thought it referred to the year that Essex last had a decent cricket side. I must admit that I'm surprised, and rather offended too, that he doubted the accuracy of my account of my leafleting expedition earlier today. Well I was paying attention to it Batters - after the walking football incident, I take careful note in case there are more unexpected sources of injury you might flag up! (Because I’m a little bit younger than some, the board gives me a bit of advance warning of some things, blood pressure etc., for which I am grateful. And of course the infection-related stuff). Hope your knee is improving btw batty |
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Post by Rafwan on Jun 17, 2024 22:09:55 GMT
Carswell considered the EU as “essentially Habsburg in origin”. I’m not sure exactly what he himself means by this, but others who have commented on similarities between the Habsburg Empire and the EU, Kind of see the EU as a doomed Empire much as the Habsburg Austrian-Hungarian empire was doomed. They may tend to see all empires as being doomed, and prefer the nation state instead. People who like supranational organisations may feel the opposite, they don’t necessarily care for the nation Well he has a point. “Franz Joseph Otto Robert Maria Anton Karl Max Heinrich Sixtus Xavier Felix Renatus Ludwig Gaetan Pius Ignatius von Habsburg” to give him his full name was both the heir to the Hapsburg throne and a prominent MEP who favoured expansion of the EU. He was only allowed to visit Austria in the 1960s when he renounced his claim to the Austrian throne. www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/04/otto-von-habsburg-obituaryHis Dad once made my great Grandad the equivalent of a Duke in the Austro Hungarian empire (I still have his sealing ring) but that’s a story for another day. Renowned for once, having been told there was an Austria/Hungary football match coming up, asking, “oh, yes, who are they playing?”. |
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Post by mercian on Jun 17, 2024 22:12:38 GMT
I'll have a small wager that Sunderland will be 'Labour hold' on a mediocre vote, with a low turnout, Tory vote down 50% and Reform UK a good second. There will then be a fevered debate among the pundits about how Labour is under-performing compared to the exit poll and RefUK are breaking through, before a little later the first interesting result turns up and Labour take some Tory seat in the south on a huge swing with the Conservative vote collapsing and RefUK a distant third or fourth. A bit difficult to take that wager because it's too vague. Whoever loses could argue that it was or was not a 'fevered' debate or merely passionate for instance. What constitutes a 'huge' swing or a 'distant' third or fourth? I wouldn't bother going to the bookies with that one. |
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Post by jen on Jun 17, 2024 22:13:05 GMT
Well he has a point. “Franz Joseph Otto Robert Maria Anton Karl Max Heinrich Sixtus Xavier Felix Renatus Ludwig Gaetan Pius Ignatius von Habsburgy” to give him his full name was both the heir to the Hapsburg throne and a prominent MEP. I challenge alec to be make an anagram out of that politician's name! You will be amazed, but just check this out, it is a perfect anagram for,,, complete and utterly pointless far right CSU anti semitic lying sexless bavarian who was disappointed by a british tory with his dick in a pig it's amazing! |
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Post by mercian on Jun 17, 2024 22:14:25 GMT
Is it just me, but it does look like the Conservatives have given up on the national campaign and must be all focusing on defending their own seats?
I’ve been posting data about that, and the Telegraph graphics showing where the campaigning is happening, which supports your view. It also showed that Refuk are prioritising Labour seats for campaigning. That would make sense for Reform because I think their target voters would be mainly WWC. |
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Dave
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... I'm dreaming dreams, I'm scheming schemes, I'm building castles high ..
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Post by Dave on Jun 17, 2024 22:14:51 GMT
Skvelý výsledokI've decided to self-identify as a Slovak! Good on you. We should all be who we want to be, even if only for a day. I myself, for the first time ever, was German the other night 😉 |
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Post by jen on Jun 17, 2024 22:16:10 GMT
Well he has a point. “Franz Joseph Otto Robert Maria Anton Karl Max Heinrich Sixtus Xavier Felix Renatus Ludwig Gaetan Pius Ignatius von Habsburg” to give him his full name was both the heir to the Hapsburg throne and a prominent MEP who favoured expansion of the EU. He was only allowed to visit Austria in the 1960s when he renounced his claim to the Austrian throne. www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/04/otto-von-habsburg-obituaryHis Dad once made my great Grandad the equivalent of a Duke in the Austro Hungarian empire (I still have his sealing ring) but that’s a story for another day. Renowned for once, having been told there was an Austria/Hungary football match coming up, asking, “oh, yes, who are they playing?”. Quite funny. |
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Post by jen on Jun 17, 2024 22:18:37 GMT
I’ve been posting data about that, and the Telegraph graphics showing where the campaigning is happening, which supports your view. It also showed that Refuk are prioritising Labour seats for campaigning. That would make sense for Reform because I think their target voters would be mainly WWC. World Wrestling Confederation? Although, on reflection, I suppose that makes sense... |
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