pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on May 26, 2024 10:47:04 GMT
When Labour post victory has to face the Brexit sized elephant in the room they will be doing so when just 2 of their 400+ mps supported leave. There's no opposition to rolling back the catastrophe other than those the Labour leadership impose on themselves. I wasn't aware that the Labour leadership controlled the EU negotiating team, Commission and Parliament; nor the UK voters in a referendum on terms as yet unknown. |
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Post by moby on May 26, 2024 10:48:55 GMT
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on May 26, 2024 10:50:00 GMT
Good Lord! The latest Tory proposal for some form of National service for 18 year olds. Day 4 after the Election announced, never hinted at before and presumably the fruits of the PM being closeted with his inner Circle today. One might make the observation that the young did their National service by observing lockdown during a Pandemic to protect the elderly when the Pandemic was of little risk to them, missing out on Education and the fun of teenage years. Others have pointed out this is aimed at the elderly voter and probably plays well with the Refuk cohort. It's also barking mad, what happens if all 700,000 18 year olds elected to do their bit with the armed forces! we would have to exponentially increase the Forces just to be able to take the youngsters on! Well I hope it motivates the young to register to vote and stick two fingers up to this. I think there is a distinct possibility that all the wheels may fall off this Tory campaign and we may witness a real disintegration. Six weeks seems like a long time. After this announcement, they really do deserve to have the wheels come off... I have mentioned before that Sunak seems a bit like Major, struggles for policies, and that policies tend to be harder to come by if you’re not keen on the state anyway, but did wonder if might have summat stored up for the campaign. I wasn’t expecting much but it is currently failing to reach already low expectations |
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
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Post by pjw1961 on May 26, 2024 10:52:00 GMT
It was announced as a mandatory requirement to volunteer. You couldn't make this up. But in the consersation it was said there would be no penalty for not volunteering. Cleverly said there would be no criminal sanction. That is (potentially) not the same as no penalty. Of course, they are simply making this up as they go along, so who knows that the policy is? |
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Post by jib on May 26, 2024 11:01:24 GMT
But in the consersation it was said there would be no penalty for not volunteering. Cleverly said there would be no criminal sanction. That is (potentially) not the same as no penalty. Of course, they are simply making this up as they go along, so who knows that the policy is? |
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steve
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Posts: 12,633
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Post by steve on May 26, 2024 11:03:42 GMT
Frog faced hate gimp Nigel Farage announces that there's a growing number of people who don't aspire to decent values.
Try looking in the mirror you odious twat.
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patrickbrian
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These things seem small and undistinguishable, like far off mountains turned into clouds
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Post by patrickbrian on May 26, 2024 11:09:27 GMT
So far, i can't see any consistency at all to Sunak's approach to this election. They're all over the place, and I'd guess full of resentments and back-stabbing behind the scenes. If they keep going 20 might seem like a decent percentage..... But I would love to have Trevor's take at this point (I'm afraid Colin might be a bit depressed).
I dare say Rishi puts himself to sleep dreaming of Santa Monica. Was it Churchill who distinguished between his opponents (the other party) and his enemies (behind him). By now he must really hate them. At least that would be some compensation in the vent of a catastrophic loss.
So we finally saw James Cleverly today. Anyone noticed the rest of the Cabinet yet? Kemi? Hunt? Cameron? Mordaunt? I don't even know the names of most of them...
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Post by jib on May 26, 2024 11:18:04 GMT
Source: Mirror
EXCLUSIVE: Leaked National Service plans don't rule out arresting teens for not taking part
Rishi Sunak has announced all 18-year-olds will be forced to do National Service. A Tory briefing note seen by the Mirror fails to rule out arresting those who don't take part
Tory plans to bring back mandatory national service are in chaos after a leaked briefing paper suggested young people could be arrested for not taking part.
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,700
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on May 26, 2024 11:21:26 GMT
oldnat has been on about a Sovereign Wealth fund for many a moon: “ Precise details of Labour’s policy plans are hard to come by, but one thing is clear: “The National Wealth Fund will be a crucial tool in our armoury towards bringing about growth,” according to shadow chancellor Rachel Reeves.
Reeves has vowed to set up a British sovereign wealth fund if Labour wins power, using it to “create good jobs and spread productivity in every part of the country”.” Telegraph
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Post by crossbat11 on May 26, 2024 11:22:18 GMT
The jibster has been different gravy since the election was called.
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
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Post by pjw1961 on May 26, 2024 11:41:43 GMT
oldnat has been on about a Sovereign Wealth fund for many a moon: “ Precise details of Labour’s policy plans are hard to come by, but one thing is clear: “The National Wealth Fund will be a crucial tool in our armoury towards bringing about growth,” according to shadow chancellor Rachel Reeves.
Reeves has vowed to set up a British sovereign wealth fund if Labour wins power, using it to “create good jobs and spread productivity in every part of the country”.” Telegraph Only 50 years after it should have been set up. Pity Thatcher spent most of the the oil money on sustaining mass unemployment and flogging off the public utilities on the cheap. |
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
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Post by pjw1961 on May 26, 2024 11:44:09 GMT
So far, i can't see any consistency at all to Sunak's approach to this election. They're all over the place, and I'd guess full of resentments and back-stabbing behind the scenes. If they keep going 20 might seem like a decent percentage..... But I would love to have Trevor's take at this point (I'm afraid Colin might be a bit depressed). I dare say Rishi puts himself to sleep dreaming of Santa Monica. Was it Churchill who distinguished between his opponents (the other party) and his enemies (behind him). By now he must really hate them. At least that would be some compensation in the vent of a catastrophic loss. So we finally saw James Cleverly today. Anyone noticed the rest of the Cabinet yet? Kemi? Hunt? Cameron? Mordaunt? I don't even know the names of most of them... Colin wrote the Tories chances off some time ago. Trevor is presumably in despair over his beloved Rwanda scheme failing - literally - to get off the ground. |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,700
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on May 26, 2024 11:47:46 GMT
oldnat has been on about a Sovereign Wealth fund for many a moon: “ Precise details of Labour’s policy plans are hard to come by, but one thing is clear: “The National Wealth Fund will be a crucial tool in our armoury towards bringing about growth,” according to shadow chancellor Rachel Reeves.
Reeves has vowed to set up a British sovereign wealth fund if Labour wins power, using it to “create good jobs and spread productivity in every part of the country”.” Telegraph Only 50 years after it should have been set up. Pity Thatcher spent most of the the oil money on sustaining mass unemployment and flogging off the public utilities on the cheap. I think you may have found a some agreement with oldnat! (There is an interesting knock-on effect that a Sovereign wealth fund might make Indy more attractive as Scotland may be entitled to a share) |
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patrickbrian
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These things seem small and undistinguishable, like far off mountains turned into clouds
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Post by patrickbrian on May 26, 2024 11:49:21 GMT
Did someone say a while ago that Trevor is posting somewhere else? I can't imagine him just keeping his opinions to himself
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Post by graham on May 26, 2024 11:54:18 GMT
I have to say that I find the conduct of election campaigns to be very uninspiring nowadays indeed - it comes across as thoroughly contrived and banal and probably fails to engage most of the electorate.I accept that this has been the case for thirty years or so now.
It would be so much better to return to the era of mass public meetings addressed by the party leaders and senior figures. I fondly recall the 1964 and 1966 election campaigns with Harold Wilson being so effective when dealing with the hecklers seeking to interrupt him. George Brown was also good - as on the Tory side were Ted Heath and Quintin Hogg. Those meetings appeared so much more meaningful than the rubbish we are now presented with.I do wonder whether the fall in turnout at GEs owes somethng to the switch to reliance on pure marketing /advertising techniques rather than having public debate and argument directly with the voters.
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
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Post by pjw1961 on May 26, 2024 11:57:04 GMT
Only 50 years after it should have been set up. Pity Thatcher spent most of the the oil money on sustaining mass unemployment and flogging off the public utilities on the cheap. I think you may have found a some agreement with oldnat! (There is an interesting knock-on effect that a Sovereign wealth fund might make Indy more attractive as Scotland may be entitled to a share) I'm old enough the remember the SNP's campaign slogan back in the 1970s "Its Scotland's oil!" so oldnat might object to sharing  |
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steve
Member
Posts: 12,633
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Post by steve on May 26, 2024 11:57:44 GMT
"Richard Tice 🇬🇧
@ticerichard
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Sunak is so desperate…. Putting out unconsidered impractical policy ideas that military do not want, not asked for.
Just fund our professional force properly at 3% as per @reformparty_uk policy
We can be trusted to defend our borders"
Given that part of their proposals to protect our borders involve sinking refugee boats in the channel and allowing the occupants to drown I think I'll take a pass on trusting these maniacs.
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Post by Rafwan on May 26, 2024 11:59:17 GMT
Rafwan "thought he should be given a fair chance. The 2017 result convinced me that a win under his leadership was possible, if he was given full backing" Out of interest did you criticise Corbyn, Abbott etc for not giving Blair/Brown their full backing. Or did you think they were correct to stick to what they thought was right? Had the PLP Campaign Group got up to shenanigans that threatened the election or continuation of a Labour government, then I think yes I would have been among those complaining. But I cannot recall any situation remotely like that. Corbyn et al were simply interesting irritants providing useful, if not always agreeable, alternative viewpoints. Room should always be made for such different perspectives. Reminds me a bit of that gruff but lovable ex-cop who very occasionally posts here (like about ten thousand times) and enjoys getting under people's skin (and likes to boast of his dismissal from other forums for his excesses). A treasure who we couldn't do without. I also think it was fair for people to criticize Corbyn et al. For example, I didn't condemn the PLP no confidence vote or the front-benchers who resigned. But the 2017 result made a huge difference and showed that Corbyn-led Labour could win given full backing. domjg says 2017 was about Brexit and offers as evidence the fact that this is what he and all his mates believe. Well I am sorry but that just doesn't cut it for me. It really was time to rally round. And the alternative to Corbyn was the four-year nightmare which we hope is now drawing to a close. The issue though that really gets to me is antisemitism. If the party really was becoming antisemitic, then that would be grounds for opposing him, even perhaps at cost of the nightmare. Some said Corbyn himself was antisemitic (Margaret Hodge, in expletives made behind the Speaker's Chair during voting), some said Labour was no longer a 'safe place' for Jews (64 Labour Lords in a full-page Guardian advert), staffers complained bitterly about alleged antisemitism (Panorama programme), MPs resigned over antisemitism claims to form a new party, Tony Blair declared that antisemitism was 'killing' the Labour Party (to the Board of Deputies a week after the GE 2019 was called). Who on earth would vote for this shambles? I have spent a very great deal of time looking at this disturbing matter over the last five years but can find nothing to substantiate the claims, yet they brought great harm to the Labour Party and indeed to Jewish communities generally. I find it very repugnant. |
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steve
Member
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Post by steve on May 26, 2024 11:59:59 GMT
Tory meets other tories. Later Sunakered will be meeting other tories pretending not to be Tories.  |
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Post by EmCat on May 26, 2024 12:00:33 GMT
My dad had to do National Service in the early 1950s and hated it. Always said it was a complete waste of time. If he was still around today (he would have been 92) it would not have been a vote winner with him. Ditto my father. He recounted with admiration the genius of a fellow conscript who got himself excused National Service after a few weeks through the stratagem of following every order with idiotic precision. The most spectacular example was when they were ordered to Blanco their kit. "All my kit, sir?" "Yes, all your kit!" So he covered everything in Blanco - shoes, clothes, bedding, etc. My father did National Service, and said that one way out of it was if you could demonstrate that you were incapable of marching properly - ie moving the same arm with the same leg ("tick-ticking") rather than right arm with left leg. However, one of the NCOs would follow those folk around the camp for a few days, and if they caught them marching the right way at all, they would then be able to be taught. He reckoned that a couple of his intake successfully got out of it. He spent some of his time in an air traffic control hut (separate from the main control tower) at RAF Northolt waiting for the few aircraft each week to arrive and depart. And in between times being taught to play bridge by one of the NCOs |
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Post by bardin1 on May 26, 2024 12:03:22 GMT
The biggest Uk volleyball tournament happens to be on this weekend and my son is thecoach for the Edinburgh university woman's team and one of the organisers of the uni's participation in the tournament. As a result I had thirteen 19 to 23 years olds staying over Friday and last night (and had to cook for 19 people, including vegans and gluten frees, on friday but that's for another forum). I also had to pick up my 21 year old daughter (just finished accountancy at Glasgow) from a party inthe countryside with 10 of her friends.
So I have been able to conducted something of an opinion poll on a small sample of 19-23 year olds re national service.
90% of them thoght I was joking when i told them
85% thought Sunak must have been joking when he announced it
100% of them thought it was a vote loser.
Of course views may be different when my father in law and I collect 9 elderly people on Tuesday to drive them down to the community lunch in the church hall.
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
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Post by pjw1961 on May 26, 2024 12:05:54 GMT
Did someone say a while ago that Trevor is posting somewhere else? I can't imagine him just keeping his opinions to himself I think it was barbara who said he posts on Conservative Home as Trevor Warne. Incidentally I have been looking at the below the line comments on Conservative Home. It feels like intruding on private grief. The natives are not happy to put it mildly and their anger is very much directed at the leadership of their own party, although they don't like Reform either. Sample comments on today's announcement: "Home Secretary James Cleverly said the Conservatives' plan to reintroduce national service would address social fragmentation and get young people "out of their bubble" - Perhaps they should trial it with sitting Cabinet members?  " "National Service you say. So my 15 year old daughter who scored 100% in her music composition and is a multi instrumentalist comfortable playing in front of 100s of paying people will benefit from either a year in the army or doing voluntary service. We’ll here is another reason this past Conservative voter won’t be voting Conservative this time round. Parents up and down the land won’t be reaching out for this one. I also look forward to Grandpa explaining to his daughter and granddaughter why this is a policy to vote for without getting a scalding cup of tea in his lap. I will just be a casual observer if this altercation comes to pass. But it won’t - because it’s just nonsense." "The truth is that Sunak and the people he chooses to listen to are both politically inept and also out of touch with the political views of the majority of the Party's members and Conservative voters. Thus we end up with incompetent campaigns, inept announcements and "big state" policy positions." "Nuts, he sure knows how to get the votes of the young! More evidence, if any was needed, that he is hopelessly out of his depth and hopelessly out of touch." "The 'Mandatory' National Service / Community Order is now voluntary and if 18 year olds say 'nah' there will be no kickback.. Oh and there will only be 30,000 places - J Cleverly 26 May 2024. BBC with Laura K. Some one should get Sunak a dictionary. Mandatory meaning: required by law or mandate; compulsory." - Reply "U turn within 14 hours" And so on and so on. |
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Post by crossbat11 on May 26, 2024 12:05:58 GMT
Did someone say a while ago that Trevor is posting somewhere else? I can't imagine him just keeping his opinions to himself I don't know about anybody else, but I'm not remotely missing Trevor's insights on Sir Keith Stalin and New Tory Labour. Or some such other ultra partisan drivel. Colin, on his good days, could offer some interesting centre right observations on politics, but whilst not really missing these two long time, copiously posting veterans of this site, I am genuinely interested in hearing from what I would call the authentic voices of mainstream conservatism. Their measured thoughts about the future of that noble and important British political tradition and how the Tory Party might one day re-embrace it. Trevor never provided anything like that level of intellectual insight and neither did Colin very often. Maybe such voices will appear on this site once again. Neil A used to provide something akin to them but seemed to uncharacteristically blow a final fuse, never to be heard again. |
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steve
Member
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Post by steve on May 26, 2024 12:12:07 GMT
Sunakered says Sweden has a scheme of national service similar to his nonsense proposals.
The UK has approximately 775000 people aged 18.
All would be required to serve most wouldn't be paid.
Sweden has approximately 100,000 18 year olds only 13,000 of whom were selected as eligible for service and only 4000 were found suitable to serve.
Those found suitable are paid around £450 a week plus free room and board.
Almost a carbon copy ,said nobody ever.
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
Member
A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,700
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on May 26, 2024 12:14:42 GMT
I think you may have found a some agreement with oldnat! (There is an interesting knock-on effect that a Sovereign wealth fund might make Indy more attractive as Scotland may be entitled to a share) I'm old enough the remember the SNP's campaign slogan back in the 1970s "Its Scotland's oil!" so oldnat might object to sharing Ah yes. Another thing though is how do you stop Tories* from raiding it for tax cuts (or to fund more unemployment etc.)? * or whoever might succeed them |
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Post by eotw on May 26, 2024 12:21:10 GMT
"National Service you say. So my 15 year old daughter who scored 100% in her music composition and is a multi instrumentalist comfortable playing in front of 100s of paying people will benefit from either a year in the army or doing voluntary service. We’ll here is another reason this past Conservative voter won’t be voting Conservative this time round. Parents up and down the land won’t be reaching out for this one. I also look forward to Grandpa explaining to his daughter and granddaughter why this is a policy to vote for without getting a scalding cup of tea in his lap. I will just be a casual observer if this altercation comes to pass. But it won’t - because it’s just nonsense." This is why this National Service idea is electoral insanity - never mind alienating the probably won't vote 18 year olds, it is the 30 to 40 something Mums and Dads of under 18s who will really hate this, these parents are much more likely to vote and they are not going to vote for someone who is going to conscript their kids. |
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Post by RAF on May 26, 2024 12:21:35 GMT
pjw1961Tory voters are doing themselves a disservice to pin all the blame on Sunak. The last 5 years have been disastrous, a period that includes two other PMs. They've also failed to grasp why they are losing so much support. What the average Conservative voter currently wants (Reform) is not what the msjority of the UK wants. It's not just a matter of a lack of competence or coherence, or even a total absence of the common touch; its a simple disconnection between the policy desires of the average UK voter and that of the average Conservative voter.
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Post by alec on May 26, 2024 12:24:40 GMT
I'm probably swimming against the tide here, but aside from the useless way it has been released, without thought, shorn of practical design and generally botched in delivery, I'm going to say that Sunak's national service plan has some merit and could, in the right hands, be something of a vote winner. Many liberal countries in Europe are either pondering some form of youth service, a few already do or are looking at a military element to this. Enforced army service is clearly not on the agenda, but options for a short period of military service is something a few young people might consider as beneficial. The volunteering element also has some merits. I think it's difficult moving from where we are to a mandatory system of social volunteering, but let's be honest - many people like volunteering, if their lives are'nt so pressured they can afford the time, and for young people is could offer the chance to gain confidence, gather skills, and find out a little more about who they are, where they want to go in life, and how institutions work and how they interact with citizens. Such a plan would need to be handled very carefully, and would require proper resourcing, so it actually becomes a benefit for participants, not a mandatory chore. Tories currently exile at failure on both policy handling and resourcing, so under them it would like be a disaster, but this is not an alien concept and many decent countries operate some kind of youth service system. Leftists are often very fast to dismiss any notions of 'nation service', but if it is constructed to encourage deeper links with and within wider society, it could actually be argued to be a very socialist initiative.
Edit: Think of it like this: middle class student raising money for a gap year to build schools in Kenya = worthy learning experience, life affirming enterprise, character building venture. 'National service' = silly idea, right wing duffers, imposition on teenagers etc etc
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,700
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on May 26, 2024 12:25:49 GMT
Did someone say a while ago that Trevor is posting somewhere else? I can't imagine him just keeping his opinions to himself "The truth is that Sunak and the people he chooses to listen to are both politically inept and also out of touch with the political views of the majority of the Party's members and Conservative voters. Thus we end up with incompetent campaigns, inept announcements and "big state" policy positions." The more right wing Tories online actually think the Tories are “Big State” because of things like net zero and furlough. But that is possibly only a minority of Tories who think that way pjw1961 Tory voters are doing themselves a disservice to pin all the blame on Sunak. The last 5 years have been disastrous, a period that includes two other PMs. They've also failed to grasp why they are losing so much support. What the average Conservative voter currently wants (Reform) is not what the msjority of the UK wants. It's not just a matter of a lack of competence or coherence, or even a total absence of the common touch; its a simple disconnection between the policy desires of the average UK voter and that of the average Conservative voter. Looking at the polling a lot of Tories were up for some nationalised utilities. The party might be to the right of their voters. |
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patrickbrian
Member
These things seem small and undistinguishable, like far off mountains turned into clouds
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Post by patrickbrian on May 26, 2024 12:29:09 GMT
Crossbat
"Trevor never provided anything like that level of intellectual insight and neither did Colin very often."
There are more than a few LOC contributors on this site that you could say that about too! (Not that I would...)
But I was so intrigued by Trevor's style... Did he make himself incomprehensible deliberately? I may be the only one, but I miss him
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