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Post by hireton on Feb 7, 2024 18:45:01 GMT
pjw1961"Kudos to Starmer for spotting the error at once and calling Sunak out on it rather than sticking to his script." Sorry, not buying it. If Esther Ghey had not been in the Gallery Sunak's remark would have past unchallenged by Starmer and many others. Starmer and Labour have been and are weak on these issues. This tweet sums it up nicely:
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steve
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Post by steve on Feb 7, 2024 18:51:15 GMT
hiretonBut she was it was an awful lack of basic decency which Starmer saw for what it was which at least indicates he isn't an utter morality vacuum.
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Post by hireton on Feb 7, 2024 19:05:38 GMT
hiretonBut she was it was an awful lack of basic decency which Starmer saw for what it was which at least indicates he isn't an utter morality vacuum. Or more probably just a shameless political opportunist. |
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Post by mercian on Feb 7, 2024 19:05:54 GMT
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Post by hireton on Feb 7, 2024 19:12:36 GMT
Badenoch has now weighed in:
This is the woman who: made disparaging remarks about transgender people; personally pinned up "men" and "women" labels on the toilets at the venue for the launch of her leadership campaign; ordered an emergency OFSTED inspection at a school based on media reports that pupils were identifying as cats ( they weren't); and has ended UK recognition of GRCs from countries with self ID systems.
She is a very clear example of why somebody with extremist religious beliefs should not be let anywhere near equality issues.
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Post by mark61 on Feb 7, 2024 19:23:21 GMT
Hireton, I think you do Sir keir a disservice here, He knew Esther Ghey was in Parliament and reacted like a decent Human being to the crass insensitivity of the Prime Minister's pre-prepared gibe. If he had not picked him up on it I guess some would have taken him to task about his failure to do so. Contrast with Badenoch who has form for pushing Culture War issues when it suits.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2024 19:28:12 GMT
The father of murdered transgender teenager Brianna Ghey has demanded an apology from Rishi Sunak, saying he was "disgusted" with the prime minister's comments in the Commons today. Speaking to Sky News, Peter Spooner said Mr Sunak's remarks during PMQs, which the schoolgirl's mother Esther attended, were "degrading" and "absolutely dehumanising". He said: "As the prime minister for our country to come out with degrading comments like he did, regardless of them being in relation to discussions in parliament, they are absolutely dehumanising. "Identities of people should not be used in that manner, and I personally feel shocked by his comments and feel he should apologise for his remarks." Of course he should. Needless to say he won't other regime members such as the useless Hunt have already gathered round to explain what Sunakered really meant. It's the Spaffer regime revisited.
Pollster Luke Tryl sums up why relying on a culture war strategy is doomed to failure.
To me, Sunak comes across as a nerdy teenager who's an absolute wizz at making money trading Bitcoin at his computer in his bedroom late at night, but is completely socially inept when out in the real world.
Unless he's closely managed, one can't help but feel he'll be a major liability when subject to the scrutiny of an election campaign.
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Post by bendo on Feb 7, 2024 19:34:14 GMT
Whats the issue? Its 2024, copper phone lines are a dated concept in the modern world. For the majority the only change will be to plug in the phone line to the router instead of the existing faceplate. Hmm. Not so simple I think. I have just been trying to get a technical explanation of what is happening rather than the slogans and I cant find one. The Uk phone netwok began to change to fibre from copper maybe 40 years ago and its not clear to me this is the end of copper. They started on the trunk network where calls were mutiplexed onto fibre cables instead of copper ones. Now they seem to be removing the copper connections from local exchange to roadside. But I cannot find whether they intend to literally make the network copper free by removing the last section from road to house. The problem if they did would be the huge amount of work in replacing telephone wires inside running in lots of strange places. What i have found is a statement your old phone will have to be plugged into a router which is powered off your electricty supply. But many/most already have these (ok will need a new one, but thats just swapping it over), and they operate broadband through copper wires entering the house. VOIP phones just means it uses internet transfer protocols, it doesnt necessarily mean you arent using copper wire connections. The main benefit to Openreach is getting rid of the links to the hundreds of local exchanges, instead they can route the cabinets used for FTTC to regional exchanges. Those who dont take FTTP will still have a copper line to the home but ultimately fed from a cab that is no longer linked to a local exchange, which will allow Openreach to reduce their estate and costs of the maintenance of them. Landlines are an ancient relic, many of them these days only taken because it was a requirement of having broadband. Digital voice will enable them to continue to be provided whilst not incurring a stupidly high overhead for Openreach to maintain. |
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Post by bendo on Feb 7, 2024 19:35:11 GMT
Badenoch has now weighed in: This is the woman who: made disparaging remarks about transgender people; personally pinned up "men" and "women" labels on the toilets at the venue for the launch of her leadership campaign; ordered an emergency OFSTED inspection at a school based on media reports that pupils were identifying as cats ( they weren't); and has ended UK recognition of GRCs from countries with self ID systems. She is a very clear example of why somebody with extremist religious beliefs should not be let anywhere near equality issues. The party that keeps on giving. They may as well go all out hate and try to appeal to that vote. |
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Post by peterbell on Feb 7, 2024 20:04:32 GMT
According to Sam Coates, (Sky political commentator) the mood around Sunakered is very grim tonight following his attack on Starmer re the trans issue. The presence of Briana's mother in the Commons at the time meant that the whole house held its breath.
Evidently Sunak is now saying that he was not aware that she was there. Strange, Starmer's opening statement refered to King Charles and welcoming the presence of Briana's mother.
Evidently the Tories are upset that this misjudgement meant that they have lost any benefit from attacking Starmer's position on the £28Bn green energy project.
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Feb 7, 2024 20:05:58 GMT
pjw1961 "Kudos to Starmer for spotting the error at once and calling Sunak out on it rather than sticking to his script." Sorry, not buying it. If Esther Ghey had not been in the Gallery Sunak's remark would have past unchallenged by Starmer and many others. Starmer and Labour have been and are weak on these issues. This tweet sums it up nicely: I'm impressed by your deep knowledge of imagined alternative realities. Personally I'm stick to what actually happened. |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Feb 7, 2024 20:06:41 GMT
hireton But she was it was an awful lack of basic decency which Starmer saw for what it was which at least indicates he isn't an utter morality vacuum. Or more probably just a shameless political opportunist. Pathetic. Basically you are aligning yourself with Badenoch. |
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Post by thylacine on Feb 7, 2024 20:22:10 GMT
You can second guess Starmer's motivation all you like but you can't deny his action of basic human decency, calling out Sunak's appalling lack of decency.
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Feb 7, 2024 20:30:44 GMT
From a polling perspective, the 2 Scots polls, published today, are worth a look.
Ipsos poll was done by telephone and ended on 31 Jan. R&W used a panel and ended on 4 Feb.
The phrasing of the Holyrood questions is also important. Pollsters, like R&W, who describe the constituency vote as "your first vote" and the regional vote as the "second vote" have been demonstrated to be less accurate - it leads some respondents to think of these votes as preferential, as with STV in local elections. Ipsos use the more accurate phrasing.
Indy
R&W VI Ipsos
43% Yes 50%
47% No 44%
10% Uns 5%
Holyrood Constituency
R&W VI Ipsos
35% SNP 39%
33% Lab 30%
18% Con 14%
8% L_D 7%
3% SGP 6%
3% REF 3%
1% Alba 1%
Holyrood List
R&W VI Ipsos
27% SNP 33%
29% Lab 31%
16% Con 13%
9% L_D 7%
9% SGP 11%
5% REF 2%
3% Alba 1%
Westminster
R&W VI Ipsos
33% SNP 39%
34% Lab 32%
18% Con 14%
8% L_D 8%
2% SGP 4%
4% REF 3%
1% Alba 1%
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Post by Mark on Feb 7, 2024 20:39:42 GMT
Sunak :
Today's PMQs comfirm to me what I already thought and posted upthread.
His trans jibe to Starmer, knowing full well who was in the public gallery - Starmer had already awknowledged her presence - was crass, insensitive and belied a man with zero political nous - as well as being bang out of order.
His tribute at the end also seemed wooden and hollow to me. It smacked of someone nudging him or passing him a note that he should say something.
I have to say, by contrast, Stamer got the tone exactly right and sounded genuine and heartfelt, both in his original tribute before Sunak's jibe and his response to it.
That is not a partisan point on my behalf - I am someone that is regularly very critical of Starmer.
Couple Sunak at PMQ's with tonight Tory party political broadcast, featuring Sunak himself with a marker pen and flipchart, like a teacher or businessman giving a presentation. Seriously, who the shit thought that would work?
Sunak is seriuosly out of his depth.
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Post by hireton on Feb 7, 2024 20:44:00 GMT
Hireton, I think you do Sir keir a disservice here, He knew Esther Ghey was in Parliament and reacted like a decent Human being to the crass insensitivity of the Prime Minister's pre-prepared gibe. If he had not picked him up on it I guess some would have taken him to task about his failure to do so. Contrast with Badenoch who has form for pushing Culture War issues when it suits. Possibly but when I see Starmer I think of Groucho Marx's line: "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2024 20:56:30 GMT
Or more probably just a shameless political opportunist. Pathetic. Basically you are aligning yourself with Badenoch. It's about empathy. most people will feel empathy for a mother who has lost a child regardless of the politics.
Sunak was so keen to get his pre-scripted "joke" in, and gain an approving reaction from his backbenchers, that he lost sight of that.
It was the same with his £1000 Rwanda bet, which however you look at it, most people would find distasteful.
He clearly has a problem empathising with ordinary people, which i think will prove the be a major problem for him in a General Election campaign.
Starmer was able to articulate that empathy in a manner that to me ( and many others ) seemed genuine |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Feb 7, 2024 21:00:52 GMT
Inappropriate use of polling statistics here - but still a point worth making! 
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,606
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Post by pjw1961 on Feb 7, 2024 21:07:56 GMT
Pathetic. Basically you are aligning yourself with Badenoch. It's about empathy. most people will feel empathy for a mother who has lost a child regardless of the politics.
Sunak was so keen to get his pre-scripted "joke" in, and gain an approving reaction from his backbenchers, that he lost sight of that. He clearly has a problem empathising with ordinary people, which i think will prove the be a major problem for him in a General Election campaign.
Starmer was able to articlate that empathy in a manner that to me ( and many others ) seemed genuine The key is to watch the film of it and look at Starmer's expression when he is sat on the front bench about to rise and answer Sunak. He has a look of disgust at what he's just heard that can only be a genuine reaction given he had no knowledge of what Sunak would say. I get the impression that Starmer and Sunak genuinely don't like each other much, which is not always the case with front-benchers of opposite parties. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Feb 7, 2024 21:14:56 GMT
Hireton, I think you do Sir keir a disservice here, He knew Esther Ghey was in Parliament and reacted like a decent Human being to the crass insensitivity of the Prime Minister's pre-prepared gibe. If he had not picked him up on it I guess some would have taken him to task about his failure to do so. Contrast with Badenoch who has form for pushing Culture War issues when it suits. Possibly but when I see Starmer I think of Groucho Marx's line: "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." Didn't your party almost come to be led by a Christian fundamentalist? Seem to be plenty of 'principles' knocking around in there one of which appears to be nothing matters, not hospitals, not schools, only being able to draw a national border between Scotland and England. I understand it must be galling, the window of opportunity for independence that opened after 2016 appears to have closed down, probably for a long time and Starmer may have played some very small part in that but mainly it's your own party's lack of probity, lack of delivery, entitlement etc. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2024 21:22:29 GMT
Hireton, I think you do Sir keir a disservice here, He knew Esther Ghey was in Parliament and reacted like a decent Human being to the crass insensitivity of the Prime Minister's pre-prepared gibe. If he had not picked him up on it I guess some would have taken him to task about his failure to do so. Contrast with Badenoch who has form for pushing Culture War issues when it suits. Possibly but when I see Starmer I think of Groucho Marx's line: "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." The Scottish Government has declined to appeal the section 35 ruling on trans self ID for pragmatic reasons.
People in glass houses ......
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2024 21:39:59 GMT
It's about empathy. most people will feel empathy for a mother who has lost a child regardless of the politics.
Sunak was so keen to get his pre-scripted "joke" in, and gain an approving reaction from his backbenchers, that he lost sight of that. He clearly has a problem empathising with ordinary people, which i think will prove the be a major problem for him in a General Election campaign.
Starmer was able to articlate that empathy in a manner that to me ( and many others ) seemed genuine The key is to watch the film of it and look at Starmer's expression when he is sat on the front bench about to rise and answer Sunak. He has a look of disgust at what he's just heard that can only be a genuine reaction given he had no knowledge of what Sunak would say. I get the impression that Starmer and Sunak genuinely don't like each other much, which is not always the case with front-benchers of opposite parties. As someone who has been, and still is, critical of Starmer, i think he's fundamentally a decent & honest person finding himself having to work within the bounds of current politics, who is trying to put an end to the the most dishonest and corrupt government we have known in modern times. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2024 21:59:58 GMT
It's not just the venality and corruption, but the sheer incompetence.
It's like watching a Laurel & Hardy film !
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Post by alec on Feb 7, 2024 22:03:17 GMT
mercian - yup, "woofers & tweeters" - classic. Mind, this switch from copper to digital, I was half tempted to go all Danny and weave my way down the conspiracy theory avenue when I checked the price of copper on the markets. BT must be sitting on a fortune! Just got to retrieve all that wire and sell it to the recyclers....
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Post by hireton on Feb 7, 2024 22:03:36 GMT
mark61Possibly but when I see Starmer I think of Groucho Marx's line: "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." Didn't your party almost come to be led by a Christian fundamentalist? Seem to be plenty of 'principles' knocking around in there one of which appears to be nothing matters, not hospitals, not schools, only being able to draw a national border between Scotland and England. I understand it must be galling, the window of opportunity for independence that opened after 2016 appears to have closed down, probably for a long time and Starmer may have played some very small part in that but mainly it's your own party's lack of probity, lack of delivery, entitlement etc. Oh dear. You sometimes post some thoughtful ideas on English and European dompolitics but you really cannot abide any suggestion that Scotland should mot be part of the UK. You should probably inform yourself about the comparative state of public services in Scotland and England. You should also look at opinion polls which show support for independence steady at about 50% of the electorate and much higher in younger age groups.And Forbes didn't become SNP leader but Badenoch is frontrunner to lead one of your leading British parties. |
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Post by alec on Feb 7, 2024 22:13:18 GMT
If anyone is interested, this tweet, and the longer interview it came from, are fascinating. David Putrino is an expert in Long Covid at the Mount Sinaii clinic in the US, and is here talking about the battle raging between clinicians like him and those within the medical establishment who are determined to pin Long Covid onto the psychological disorder category, despite a wealth of evidence of actual physical changes linked to the condition.
Putrino flags up issues of self interest and corruption (the 'FND' experts have been watching their careers unravel in some cases, as the true reasons for long covid, ME, CFS etc become clearer, and in the US the insurance industry pays put much less for psychological conditions).
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Post by mercian on Feb 7, 2024 22:20:26 GMT
mercian - yup, "woofers & tweeters" - classic. Mind, this switch from copper to digital, I was half tempted to go all Danny and weave my way down the conspiracy theory avenue when I checked the price of copper on the markets. BT must be sitting on a fortune! Just got to retrieve all that wire and sell it to the recyclers.... I was wondering just what proportion would get back to BT. I expect someone's brother-in-law with a van might be waiting round the corner sometimes when they rip the cable out.  |
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Post by hireton on Feb 7, 2024 22:22:31 GMT
mark61 Possibly but when I see Starmer I think of Groucho Marx's line: "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." The Scottish Government has declined to appeal the section 35 ruling on trans self ID for pragmatic reasons.
People in glass houses ......
And UK Labour doesn't support self ID nor the right of the Scottish Parliament to decide these issues.So you should probably look at your own glasshouse before attempting to throw stones. Incidentally, the Court of Session ruling meant that any appeal was unlikely to succeed given the power which section 35 gives to the Westminster Government. The Scottish Government has said this: "There’s a strong indication that any divergence of approach would be unacceptable to the UK Government, as Alister Jack stated in the Westminster Parliament: “In short, two different regimes create adverse effects.” It’s therefore impossible to see how progress can be made, particularly when the Rules of this Parliament require that amendments at Reconsideration Stage are consistent with the Bill’s general principles as agreed at Stage 1. Nonetheless, our offer is still there. If the current UK Government is willing to work together on this, we will happily sit down with them. If a future UK Government are willing, we will do so with them, so that the Section 35 can be lifted and the Bill progress. It seems clear that the current government will not do this, and it remains to be seen what a future government will do." Given UK Labour did not oppose the use of the Section 35 power, accused the SNP of only supporting self ID to create a constitutional fracas and does not support self ID it does not seem likely that UK Labour will engage any more positively with the Scottish Government than the Tories. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2024 22:24:49 GMT
Didn't your party almost come to be led by a Christian fundamentalist? Seem to be plenty of 'principles' knocking around in there one of which appears to be nothing matters, not hospitals, not schools, only being able to draw a national border between Scotland and England. I understand it must be galling, the window of opportunity for independence that opened after 2016 appears to have closed down, probably for a long time and Starmer may have played some very small part in that but mainly it's your own party's lack of probity, lack of delivery, entitlement etc. Oh dear. You sometimes post some thoughtful ideas on English and European dompolitics but you really cannot abide any suggestion that Scotland should mot be part of the UK. You should probably inform yourself about the comparative state of public services in Scotland and England. You should also look at opinion polls which show support for independence steady at about 50% of the electorate and much higher in younger age groups.And Forbes didn't become SNP leader but Badenoch is frontrunner to lead one of your leading British parties. Blimey, you’re getting ever more desperate. You’ve made yourself look really petty and small in my view. |
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Feb 7, 2024 22:30:26 GMT
mark61 Possibly but when I see Starmer I think of Groucho Marx's line: "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." Didn't your party almost come to be led by a Christian fundamentalist? Seem to be plenty of 'principles' knocking around in there one of which appears to be nothing matters, not hospitals, not schools, only being able to draw a national border between Scotland and England. I understand it must be galling, the window of opportunity for independence that opened after 2016 appears to have closed down, probably for a long time and Starmer may have played some very small part in that but mainly it's your own party's lack of probity, lack of delivery, entitlement etc.
With regard to the detail of your response to hireton, there is no need "to draw a national border between Scotland and England", or between Scotland and Northern Ireland, for that matter. The exact border between Scotland in England has been in place since 1552, when the Debatable Lands were amicably divided between the 2 kingdoms. Since 1707 it has demarcated the boundary between where Scots and English Law apply, and where administrative and political decisions have been made since 1707. That you may be unaware of this is, I suspect due to a deficiency within the education system in England which fails to educate people about the construct of the state within which they live.
"Schools and hospitals" are different on either side of the border, as you know, but seem strangely ignorant of the differences.
Westminster austerity has, obviously, damaged the provision of public services throughout the UK. The useful comparison between the responsible governments would be on the performance levels achieved within such austerity. If you wish to make a comparison between the NHS and education in Scotland and rUK, I'd be happy to engage with you, if you are willing to conduct it in a more civilised fashion.
While different systems will have strengths and weaknesses, for now I'd simply point out that there is no crisis in the provision of NHS dentistry here, as we see highlighted in England. Neonatal, infant care, and vaccination take up is much better in Scotland - so the resurgence in measles is considerably less of a risk, emergency hospital care is provided more timeously, and the ambulance service avoids the extensive delays that are reported regularly elsewhere. There have been no strikes within NHS Scotland, as ScotGov prioritised achieving settlements and understanding with staff.
There was discussion on the last thread about the dreadful state of "the British school estate". Over 90% of Scottish schools are in good or satisfactory condition - with most falling below that standard being in remote communities with only a handful of pupils.
Your criticisms of ScotGov were simply exaggerated nonsense, which can only be explained by partisan posturing and/or ignorance. The political party(ies) which form the governments of the polities of the UK can, and do, make a difference to how public services perform in trying circumstances. In GB, the governments are Con in England; Lab in Wales; SNP/SGP in Scotland. If either Con or Lab supporters wish to try to claim that putting their party in charge of any other polity will bring about improvements, then it is reasonable to see how they perform where they are already in charge. |
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