pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Apr 22, 2024 21:43:10 GMT
I don't see how. Are you proposing that the ping-pong carries on all day and night until the GE? I suspect that allowing ping-pong to continue up to the Summer recess in late July would be sufficient. Just writing that shows you what ludicrous fantasy land stuff that idea is. The government has a Commons majority and under what passes for the joke of a constitution the UK has it will always be able to force its legislation through. |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,565
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Post by pjw1961 on Apr 22, 2024 21:47:10 GMT
I don't see how. Are you proposing that the ping-pong carries on all day and night until the GE? Double insistence can come into play 'This process continues until agreement has been reached on each amendment or until ‘double insistence’ takes place, in which case the entire bill is lost. What is ‘double insistence’? Normally both Houses will make every effort to reach compromise over a bill so that it can become law. However, if one House insists on an amendment and the second House insists on its disagreement with that amendment, or if they have clearly reached a stalemate, the bill is lost. This is what happened to the European Parliamentary Elections Bill 1997–98' The whole bill will not be stopped - that's why all the wrecking amendments have already been dropped by the Lords. They are trying to get the government to concede on amendments. Sunak is refusing to. The government will win. I am astonished at the number of sensible people on this site who entertain these constitutional impossibilities that will never happen. It reminds me of all the daft discussion about "Governments of National Unity" during the Brexit debates. |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Apr 22, 2024 21:54:50 GMT
You may well be right, perhaps I have a sentimental belief that journalism is a profession!
The BBC want a word with you on that insinuation - Donald and Stormy of course had "an affair" - which just happened to last for whatever amount of time Mr Trump had paid for. |
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eor
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Post by eor on Apr 22, 2024 22:09:27 GMT
More on the US Presidential Election, Kennedy will take more votes from Trump than Biden, 15% to 7%. May appear counter intuitive as Kennedy is notionally a Democrat, but his propagation of conspiracy theories, such as the election was rigged, mass shootings are linked to prescription drugs, covid was designed to attack certain races etc tends to appeal more to Trump supporters What's pretty wild is that Kennedy's polling is all over the shop - 2-3% with some pollsters, 13-15% with others, and still some in between getting consistently high single-digits. That feels way past the difference that merely prompting can make, the house effects here are something else entirely. As was mentioned earlier, he's not yet on the ballot in most states, but that's not a big deal at this stage, in various states no-one is yet. Many states have their deadlines in late summer (so as to fall after the two major parties have formally nominated their candidates) so Kennedy has plenty of time (and money) to get on the ballot pretty much everywhere. Whether he has the energy is the bigger question - when it becomes clear to even him that he's not going to surge some Macronesque middle ground between the two most disliked candidates ever and actually win this thing, does he then drop out, or carry on anyway? Who knows. And whether he drops out or not, who knows how his supporters will react - stick with him, stay home, revert to one of the hated... depending which polls you look at he's potentially a big wildcard in all this. |
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Post by graham on Apr 22, 2024 22:54:37 GMT
Double insistence can come into play 'This process continues until agreement has been reached on each amendment or until ‘double insistence’ takes place, in which case the entire bill is lost. What is ‘double insistence’? Normally both Houses will make every effort to reach compromise over a bill so that it can become law. However, if one House insists on an amendment and the second House insists on its disagreement with that amendment, or if they have clearly reached a stalemate, the bill is lost. This is what happened to the European Parliamentary Elections Bill 1997–98' The whole bill will not be stopped - that's why all the wrecking amendments have already been dropped by the Lords. They are trying to get the government to concede on amendments. Sunak is refusing to. The government will win. I am astonished at the number of sensible people on this site who entertain these constitutional impossibilities that will never happen. It reminds me of all the daft discussion about "Governments of National Unity" during the Brexit debates. They are not 'constitutional impossibilities' because the precedents already exist - eg the War Crimes Bill and the Ban on Hunting Bill! What is clearly missing is Labour's political will to follow these - and other - precedents. |
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Post by mercian on Apr 22, 2024 22:57:09 GMT
Government in the Lords have made a concession re the Afghanistan ammendment on the Rwanda bill. Lord Brown (Lab) has accepted the concession so that this ammendment will now be dropped. Unfortunately, it seems that the bill will pass tonight. It is now up to the courts to slow down progress. Having said this I would be happy for a plane or planes to take off resulting in absolutely no difference in the number of boats crossing the channel. This would confirm what many of us have said - this whole Rwanda business is an absolute waste of millions of pounds. So what is your solution? Do we let in all these illegal immigrants and just start giving them benefits? How many should we let in? www.gov.uk/government/statistics/irregular-migration-to-the-uk-year-ending-june-2023/irregular-migration-to-the-uk-year-ending-june-2023#how-many-migrants-were-detected-arriving-in-the-uk-via-small-boats"There were 44,460 people detected arriving by small boats in the year ending June 2023, 26% higher than in the year ending June 2022." That is only the ones that were detected and is the size of Batley for instance. If nothing is done the numbers aren't going to decrease. Is 100,000 per year ok? 500,000? A Million? It's one thing to have sympathy for genuine refugees and another to allow unlimited immigration by illegal means, particularly as video of the arrivals appear to be mostly healthy young men who are coming from a safe country. Let's suppose that just 1 in a thousand is an extremist who hates the West (and we know there are plenty here already), that's another 44 potential terrorists. Are we supposed to roll over and hope they'll be kind to us? |
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Post by mercian on Apr 22, 2024 23:08:35 GMT
The House of Lords backed by 240 votes to 211, majority 29, a requirement that the east African country could not be treated as safe until the Secretary of State, having consulted an independent monitoring body, had made a statement to Parliament Back to the Commons What strikes me about that is that less than 500 of them voted. I believe there's nearly 800 of them. On such a contentious matter where are the rest? The Lords now consists of party donors and other cronies including some ex-MPs. Confrontations between the Houses like this make me more and more convinced that the Lords should be elected by PR or returned to pure hereditaries. It will never happen short of a revolution because it's not a top priority for voters and parties don't want to give up the ability to reward cronies. |
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Apr 22, 2024 23:10:38 GMT
Government in the Lords have made a concession re the Afghanistan ammendment on the Rwanda bill. Lord Brown (Lab) has accepted the concession so that this ammendment will now be dropped. Unfortunately, it seems that the bill will pass tonight. It is now up to the courts to slow down progress. Having said this I would be happy for a plane or planes to take off resulting in absolutely no difference in the number of boats crossing the channel. This would confirm what many of us have said - this whole Rwanda business is an absolute waste of millions of pounds. So what is your solution? Do we let in all these illegal immigrants and just start giving them benefits? How many should we let in? www.gov.uk/government/statistics/irregular-migration-to-the-uk-year-ending-june-2023/irregular-migration-to-the-uk-year-ending-june-2023#how-many-migrants-were-detected-arriving-in-the-uk-via-small-boats"There were 44,460 people detected arriving by small boats in the year ending June 2023, 26% higher than in the year ending June 2022." That is only the ones that were detected and is the size of Batley for instance. If nothing is done the numbers aren't going to decrease. Is 100,000 per year ok? 500,000? A Million? It's one thing to have sympathy for genuine refugees and another to allow unlimited immigration by illegal means, particularly as video of the arrivals appear to be mostly healthy young men who are coming from a safe country. Let's suppose that just 1 in a thousand is an extremist who hates the West (and we know there are plenty here already), that's another 44 potential terrorists. Are we supposed to roll over and hope they'll be kind to us? |
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Post by mercian on Apr 22, 2024 23:20:46 GMT
oldnatIf those internal migrants dislike the UK, why don't they go somewhere else? Rwanda sound nice.
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Apr 22, 2024 23:26:20 GMT
oldnat If those internal migrants dislike the UK, why don't they go somewhere else? Rwanda sound nice. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Apr 23, 2024 4:55:36 GMT
As expected it finally passed
Can't help thinking the phrase "be careful what you wish for, it might just come true" might be applicable here
What happens when the boats don't stop, as Sunak again promised today...spoiler they wont
Meanwhile, although you would never know it from Sunak's press conference, crossings were up 24% year to date...
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 23, 2024 5:27:06 GMT
So the Sunakered regime finally gets its way and Brexitania on its way to joining those other European bastions of independence Belarus and Russia.
The forced rendition of asylum seekers to a country with an appalling human rights record ( Safety of Rwanda) Bill will apparently see the first group of refugees renditioned in July at a cost of a mere £1.8 million each,despite having already forked out £500 million of our money to Rwanda for accommodation on arrival , as the Rwanda government has already sold off most of this accommodation as luxury flats in down town Kigali the maximum number that can be sent in total is about the number that could fit in a single Airbus 320.
The total cost per renditioned individual will therefore be around £3.5 million. Plus the cost of their support for the next five years.
I've an idea why not just give them £1.5 million each on the promise that they donate £50,000 to the Tory party and you could house then in the house of lords, as evidently the power to revise and reform that that place constitutionally has is worth fuck all.
An international pariah state and a laughable excuse of a government.
Nice legacy Sunakered.
Now just fuck off and play with your helicopters will you as your job is done.
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 23, 2024 5:41:41 GMT
If you went to the park to eat your lunch and found a flatuating bovine oaf sitting on your favourite bench randomly shouting "Witch hunt, election interference, Russia Russia Russia, Barak HUSSAIN Obama, " I've a pretty good idea you'd eat your cheese and pickle sandwiches elsewhere. In the USA 40% of the electorate want to make him President. youtu.be/v5-xpoL280E?si=Vj5JmMkBrcpkJBYR |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Apr 23, 2024 5:43:55 GMT
The curious thing is why the house of lords passed the bill? Obviously they could have delayed it. Im not clear whether thye could have stopped it entirely before the election, but certainly there was no reason to pass it last night. They could simply have adjourned for the day at normal business hours and gone home.
Obviously labour decided to pass the bill yesterday.
The final vote was only held on call of content or not, with no one opposing it. Obviously everyone had been told to no longer oppose it.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Apr 23, 2024 5:49:15 GMT
Sunak off on a trip to Germany and Poland today where he is expected to annouce money for Ukraine.
If he really meant to help Ukraine, why didnt he announce it when the money from the US was being held up, when it would actually have been useful. Whereas he waits until the US aid looks like it is finally going to be agreed before he offers some himself.
Thats pretty sickening, both in terms of the hypocrisy of only offering money to gild a foreign trip to look good, and in subservience to the US.
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 23, 2024 5:51:06 GMT
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Apr 23, 2024 6:24:58 GMT
What's pretty wild is that Kennedy's polling is all over the shop - 2-3% with some pollsters, 13-15% with others, and still some in between getting consistently high single-digits. That feels way past the difference that merely prompting can make, the house effects here are something else entirely. Polling samples not designed to be representative for a random outside contender. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Apr 23, 2024 6:28:40 GMT
"There were 44,460 people detected arriving by small boats in the year ending June 2023, 26% higher than in the year ending June 2022." That is only the ones that were detected and is the size of Batley for instance. If nothing is done the numbers aren't going to decrease. Is 100,000 per year ok? 500,000? A Million? as a member of the EU the number was zero because we could just send them back. idiots who voted to boost immigration by leaving the EU when they thought (and were told by the likes of Johnson and Gove and Mogg and even May) that they were voting for the reverse. Hard to imagine why they would ever vote con again. Oh...con vote tumbling. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Apr 23, 2024 6:31:04 GMT
oldnatIf those internal migrants dislike the UK, why don't they go somewhere else? Rwanda sound nice. Why doesnt the Uk just grab a scottish Island and dump them all there? We have plenty of islands, turn one into a refugee camp. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Apr 23, 2024 6:38:36 GMT
oldnatIf those internal migrants dislike the UK, why don't they go somewhere else? Rwanda sound nice. Wish we could send your unproductive, society damaging, modern Britain hating, brexit voting cohort somewhere like that instead. They might learn something. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Apr 23, 2024 6:40:28 GMT
So Government borrowing £6.6bn higher than predicted, with a huge and a growing debt burden, services in desperate need of more money, substantial tax cuts are not going to happen to save the tories
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Apr 23, 2024 6:43:52 GMT
The "Felter Affair" sounds like a good old fashioned Westminster groping scandal. Sir Christopher Chope denying it all of course, but the Sunday People adamant that they have video evidence of Chope's unwanted advances towards a young parliamentary internee. Female, I hasten to add before we go down the Pincher route. We do not even have decent statistics on how many people have non heterosexual tendencies, never mind dividing this by occupation. MPs are a mixed bunch. Theres the rich ones who fancied it as a bit of fun. Theres the ones driven by a burning ambition to rule. Most people with non straight tendencies hide it, as evidence the statistics we do have, which are also suggesting minimum 10%. Are people driven to become politicians partly because they arent interested in family and heterosexual partner? Its possible the number of such MPs is higher than the population average. So we might be talking 100 gay or bisexual MPs? More? Third largest party? |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Apr 23, 2024 6:44:51 GMT
"Trump originally paid money to the women concerned for a single night of sex. " I think you'll find it was closer to 30 seconds. Hey, old guys last longer! |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Apr 23, 2024 7:09:36 GMT
pjw1961Just the police crime commissioner here. I was asked if I wanted to consider standing but it's too much work to be honest. A job no one bothering to vote for and no one wants to do? |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Apr 23, 2024 7:20:18 GMT
Well over at the Telegraph comments section, it would seem some feel betrayed over immigration, and some feel betrayed over Brexit more generally, that there wasn’t a bonfire of regulations. Some are pissed off at what they perceive as the sabotage of Truss: the way the BoE started the Quantitative tightening the day before her budget*, and the leak of the OBR figures. Then you get the Remainers chipping in, who obviously aren’t so keen on Reform but still don’t care for the government… * headline in the Telegraph “ Jeremy Hunt urged to review Bank of England’s independence for BoE” The Telegraph maybe a self selecting audience, especially in view of some of their batshit crazy recent headlines/stories www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/'Fourteen years of Tory rule have left Britain a lazy, dangerous, Left-wing mess' What we do know from polling is that the tories have lost as many votes to the left of them as to the right. They are in a cleft stick, whichever direction they go in they're likely to lose support. What I'm pretty sure of though is that they'll never out Reform, Reform. The siren voices telling them to go even further right will lead them into a dead end politically I meant to comment on this before but didn't get around to it. This idea of modern Britons being 'lazy' really enrages me, especially coming from tory politicians and journalists who spend most of their time in bars and arsing about generally. But of course they are special, entitled. Hard work is for other people. Once more it's about a war on the working age population of this country who are already dealing with myriad cost of living issues in an economy that has been deliberately and ideologically constrained and wilfully damaged by these very people for no reason other than to enact their own personal fantasies. What they are essentially saying is that they are enraged that the actually extremely hard working, working age cohort of this country have failed the feckless twits by not magically taking advantage of their wondrous brexit and austerity and making Britain somehow into the 'world beating' vision of their fever dreams. Despicable is not strong enough to describe this attitude. In pandering to it's comfortably retired readership the Telegraph and the tories behind them are offensively insulting those who actually work for a living. Lets see how that plays out at the election eh? |
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Post by davem on Apr 23, 2024 7:31:15 GMT
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Post by crossbat11 on Apr 23, 2024 7:41:51 GMT
"What have you done today to make you feel proud?"
A question that Sunak and his government must ask themselves every single day of both his and their time in office, and one that they must struggle to answer.
But the redoubtable Heather Small has some advice. "It's never too late to try."
Maybe, by calling an early election, they could in retrospect feel some pride in the thought that they eventually did the right thing. Country before party and a sort of dignified ending.
But they won't. They'll hang on and drag us all through seven months of culture wars and wedge searching. The thinking being that they can limit the electoral damage, poison Labour's chalice further and be ready to come back again in five years time. To serve again.
But will they be forgiven that easily and will they end up eating each other in opposition? In other words, go now and get it done might be the best thing for them in the long run.. Does dragging it out to the bitter end only make the electorate despise them even more?
Posers for Sunak to ponder before the coffin lid finally closes on him.
(Heather Small factoid. She had a relationship with the former England Rugby player and Wales coach, Shaun Edwards, and they had a son. He is now a Labour councillor.)
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Apr 23, 2024 7:44:28 GMT
So what is your solution? Do we let in all these illegal immigrants and just start giving them benefits? How many should we let in? Australia is often quoted as an example of a country which has successfully used this sort of policy (rwanda) to prevent immigration. And yet their population has twice the proportion of immigrants to ours. I caught a documentary on ancient Rome. Emperor Augustus complained that the rulling classes were not having enough children, to which his opponents pointed out he had only one daughter himself. But the documentary talked about how the population of Rome and the legal protection from being a citizen of Rome spread to a very ethnically diverse group because slaves brought to rome from all over the empire could if successful earn their freedom and become citizens. The empire continued for quite some time after Augustus, so this might be taken as showing the benefits of importing even the worst from around the world to replace the lack of children from the rich and established, happening then just as now. Augustus also adopted four children, the Romans were much less hung up on biological parentage rather than just choosing an heir who seemed suitable.
As to benefits, we have a labour shortage but we prevent refugess living here from working, so that they are obliged to depend on benefits. This is a deliberate government policy to keep them on benefits. The idea is they will give up and go home if they arent allowed to work. Isnt working too well.
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Post by shevii on Apr 23, 2024 7:59:34 GMT
Good to see Mark Rowley stand by his rank and file officers over the the Felter affair. Having seen both the full clip and Mr Felter's less than impressive performance on Sky News I think we can conclude this was a Political Stunt from someone with an agenda. It was however depressing to see the majority of the fourth estate take it at face value and run with it, having been left with egg on their face over this is it too much to ask that they delve a bit deeper next time and actually do their job? People have a go at Novara Media for bias but to me this is what proper journalism looks like- thoroughly researched in a way that none of the "respected" press have done: novaramedia.com/2024/04/22/did-an-israel-lobbyist-confect-an-antisemitism-story-about-a-palestine-demo/Let's also not forget that CAA is an organisation that Margaret Hodge (herself often straying beyond reasonableness in calling out antisemitism) said: “I’m fed up of CAA using anti-Semitism as a front to attack Labour. Time to call them out for what and who they really are. More concerned with undermining Labour than rooting out anti-Semitism.” |
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Post by crossbat11 on Apr 23, 2024 8:13:29 GMT
I think they may be doing precisely what they are paid to! People have a go at Novara Media for bias but to me this is what proper journalism looks like- thoroughly researched in a way that none of the "respected" press have done: novaramedia.com/2024/04/22/did-an-israel-lobbyist-confect-an-antisemitism-story-about-a-palestine-demo/Let's also not forget that CAA is an organisation that Margaret Hodge (herself often straying beyond reasonableness in calling out antisemitism) said: “I’m fed up of CAA using anti-Semitism as a front to attack Labour. Time to call them out for what and who they really are. More concerned with undermining Labour than rooting out anti-Semitism.” Seems like there's very little to see here. I mean, who knew? Single issue pressure groups contain idiots more concerned with political exhibitionism than the cause they purport to espouse. Most of these unrepresentative pressure groups are riddled with such buffoons. Meanwhile, ordinary Jewish and Muslim people try to get on with their lives, putting up with racial prejudice, and violence against themselves in some instances. In fear a lot of the time. Who speaks for the majority of them? Not these fools anyway. |
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