Dave
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... I'm dreaming dreams, I'm scheming schemes, I'm building castles high ..
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Post by Dave on Jan 24, 2024 14:47:11 GMT
1). Can't share all this venom and lust for vengeance against the Lib Dems on the Left. 2). Sounds and feels too much like Far Left troping for me. Feel my righteous anger comrades exhibitionism. 3). The Lib Dems back then were duped by Cameron and probably led by a cadre of closet Tories or, if I'm being generous, a group of managerial politicians who fancied some rides in limousines and the frisson of power and red boxes. Human frailties. Chequers is nice midsummer too, I'm told. Politics is a glorified board game of subterfuge, sleight of hand, chicanery and deception. You sometimes make a wrong move, get bitten, cash in you chips and go back to the start. Or jail sometimes. 4). The Lib Dems have done that and are now back in full anti Tory mode again. 5). Beating Tories all over the place. 6). That'll do for me. Plenty of assists so my team can score goals. 2010-15 is 9 years ago now. The players who played that game have gone. New team, new game different ball park. 7). I couldn't give the merest toss about the Tory/Lib Dem Coalition now. Its sins were probably overhyped anyway. 8). Long memories are an encumbrance in politics. Short ones are essential. 1). With one obvious exception, of those of us who don't forget what the Liberals were part of the one and only time that they in government this last 100 years or so, I see no venom or lust for vengeance. 2). That's weak on your part Batty. To dismiss the motives of most of us posting about this as "far left troping" or playing to the 'comrades' is a cheap shot and you're better than that. I've said on here more than once that I would vote Liberal if they were the challenger to the Tories in my Tory her seat. 3). "Duped" or led by a "cadre of closet Tories"? A bit of the first over PR and how they were to be targeted by the Tories in GE'15. Mostly the second - Clegg and co could just was easily be members of the Tory party and the Liberals (I have no idea why they weren't). The key players were all in favour of Osborne's agenda. 4). Why though? I'd suggest because they had their arses handed to them on a plate by the electorate in 2015 and realised oblivion lay ahead were they to stick with being Tory-lite or Tory enablers. So the expediency that you talk of later in your post. That, and most of their Orange bookers being hooked out of parliament in 2015. 5). Which I'm very pleased about. 6). The effects of that administration did not end in 2015. The effects of austerity are still with us. They have greatly weakened the cohesion and effectiveness of our society. This bit genuinely isn't aimed at you, as I have no idea if it applies to you or not, but this site has a real middle-classless about it and generally the middle class were not affected by austerity, or at least certainly not as affected as the working class were. It's notable, to me anyway, that often what makes people on here really irate is Brexit, rather than austerity. But then that affected a class who never expected politics to diminish their lives in the same way that it had the working classes. (That's a huge generalisation by the way but I stand by it as there appears to be truth in it from what I see from the direction of flow on here). 7). Your call, regarding the first sentence but I couldn't disagree with you more strongly regarding your second sentence. But if you think the coalition's "sins were probably over-hyped" that might explain why you are as sanguine about the Liberals' part in it as you appear to be. 8). I think it's useful to have both.
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 24, 2024 14:50:36 GMT
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 24, 2024 15:03:14 GMT
... " voters who have long been ignored and patronised are on the march.A political earthquake is about to rock Europe. Millions of Europeans are saying, ‘We’ve had enough, we no longer trust these tired, entitled mainstream political parties’,” Prof Frank Furedi, director of the MMC think tank in Brussels, I wonder how Remainers who claim they knew exactly what they were voting for think about that? "Had enough of what" I'd like to know? This guy has been debunked already by Lakelandlass but in the context of say, the Netherlands as an example, where unlike us they haven't suffered nearly 15 years of ideological austerity, serial govt incompetency or deliberate damage to their economy by leaving the EU, have a strong economy and safety net what have they really had enough of? The country with apparently the most contented children in the western world? (we have the unhappiest by the way, excepting the US). OK, house prices are out of control there but otherwise, is it just shorthand again for nativism, for hostility to immigration, again likely stoked on social media?
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 24, 2024 15:03:42 GMT
DaveJust as a bit of background we're not all from comfortable middle class families, my dad was a door to door tap salesman, a very successful one though made a very good living out of it, Faith's dad was a storeman at ICI my mother was a typist Faith's mother a cleaner.My maternal grandfather an unaccompanied child " illegal immigrant " from North Africa, my maternal great grandparents were horse thiefs in Scotland. My dad and I were the first male members of his family for three generations not to have criminal convictions and not to spend time in prison. I was the first member of either family to go to university, we have the trappings now of the "middle class" but it was from pretty humble beginnings. I mention this because I think it illustrates that things are not necessarily predictable. The assumption is that because we're all interested in politics we're all from similar backgrounds. I expect there is quite a diversity out there.
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Post by mercian on Jan 24, 2024 15:10:29 GMT
1). With one obvious exception, of those of us who don't forget what the Liberals were part of the one and only time that they in government this last 100 years or so, I see no venom or lust for vengeance. 1) There were a couple of National Liberals in Chamberlain's war cabinet. Do they count? 2) Also Liberals and National Liberals in Churchill's
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 24, 2024 15:10:41 GMT
colin An interesting thing that's just occurred to me is that now the British electorate appear hell bent on giving Labour a majority at the next opportunity you now seem to want to focus more on the poor, down-troden, patronised voters of the continent who have been so let down by their 'liberal elite' govts that so many of the poor souls had no choice but to vote for the far right and are, we're now told by no-one objective, righteously 'on the march'..
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Dave
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... I'm dreaming dreams, I'm scheming schemes, I'm building castles high ..
Posts: 818
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Post by Dave on Jan 24, 2024 15:23:57 GMT
Dave Just as a bit of background we're not all from comfortable middle class families, my dad was a door to door tap salesman, a very successful one though made a very good living out of it, Faith's dad was a storeman at ICI my mother was a typist Faith's mother a cleaner.My maternal grandfather an unaccompanied child " illegal immigrant " from North Africa, my maternal great grandparents were horse thiefs in Scotland. My dad and I were the first male members of his family for three generations not to have criminal convictions and not to spend time in prison. I was the first member of either family to go to university, we have the trappings now of the "middle class" but it was from pretty humble beginnings. I mention this because I think it illustrates that things are not necessarily predictable. The assumption is that because we're all interested in politics we're all from similar backgrounds. I expect there is quite a diversity out there. Steve - you know you don't have to explain yourself to me. I tried to keep that bit of my post from being personal. I made it clear it was a generalisation. It was just a thought about an element of this site's contributors and one which I acknowledge could be entirely wrong, as I don't know any of them personally.
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Dave
Member
... I'm dreaming dreams, I'm scheming schemes, I'm building castles high ..
Posts: 818
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Post by Dave on Jan 24, 2024 15:25:19 GMT
1). With one obvious exception, of those of us who don't forget what the Liberals were part of the one and only time that they in government this last 100 years or so, I see no venom or lust for vengeance. 1) There were a couple of National Liberals in Chamberlain's war cabinet. Do they count? 2) Also Liberals and National Liberals in Churchill's Do you know, I did nearly clarify that bit, but hoped I wouldn't need to. My mistake.
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Jan 24, 2024 15:26:34 GMT
Dave Just as a bit of background we're not all from comfortable middle class families, my dad was a door to door tap salesman, a very successful one though made a very good living out of it, Faith's dad was a storeman at ICI my mother was a typist Faith's mother a cleaner.My maternal grandfather an unaccompanied child " illegal immigrant " from North Africa, my maternal great grandparents were horse thiefs in Scotland. My dad and I were the first male members of his family for three generations not to have criminal convictions and not to spend time in prison. I was the first member of either family to go to university, we have the trappings now of the "middle class" but it was from pretty humble beginnings. I mention this because I think it illustrates that things are not necessarily predictable. The assumption is that because we're all interested in politics we're all from similar backgrounds. I expect there is quite a diversity out there. I can beat you there Steve. Mrs SDA dabbles in family history and it turns out I'm descended from Cardinal Wolseley, via his illegitimate son.
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Post by crossbat11 on Jan 24, 2024 15:33:01 GMT
Robert "The Third" Reich may be on to something then. Although I'd argue that I got there before him!!
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Post by alec on Jan 24, 2024 15:33:36 GMT
patrickbrian - "Personally I think it takes some courage to express unpopular opinions.." On an anonymous forum where you don't identify yourself and delight in posting statements that are provably wrong, failing to provide any evidence and then lying about what other posters have said? That's 'courage'? Really?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2024 15:37:30 GMT
colin An interesting thing that's just occurred to me is that now the British electorate appear hell bent on giving Labour a majority at the next opportunity you now seem to want to focus more on the poor, down-troden, patronised voters of the continent who have been so let down by their 'liberal elite' govts that so many of the poor souls had no choice but to vote for the far right and are, we're now told by no-one objective, righteously 'on the march'.. OK-put aside the Commie guy. What about that forecast itself ?. By a reputable EU forecaster. And what about their comments ?. Put aside your dismissive attitude to voters who dont agree with you-it is described as extraordinary. Its a significant shift in political sentiment. Dont you think this is interesting ?! And the collapse of the Conservative Party into factions just when Labour seemingly gets rid of its factions ? Isnt that of note too ? I was only just beginning to think through an isolationist USA under Trump with continuity Europe-and that looks bad enough. But throw in this shift right in EU and I'm really lost on effects and fallout. But none of them look good. Military big wigs saying we will be at war within years-civilians called up. This is NOT comforting continuity domjg ! And blaming it all on Facebook isnt going to help. ps-and like every other Conservative inclined DK right now , I'm really wanting to understand what Starmer will be because UK is looking like a comparative haven of political stability at present.
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Post by wb61 on Jan 24, 2024 15:40:24 GMT
Dave Just as a bit of background we're not all from comfortable middle class families, my dad was a door to door tap salesman, a very successful one though made a very good living out of it, Faith's dad was a storeman at ICI my mother was a typist Faith's mother a cleaner.My maternal grandfather an unaccompanied child " illegal immigrant " from North Africa, my maternal great grandparents were horse thiefs in Scotland. My dad and I were the first male members of his family for three generations not to have criminal convictions and not to spend time in prison. I was the first member of either family to go to university, we have the trappings now of the "middle class" but it was from pretty humble beginnings. I mention this because I think it illustrates that things are not necessarily predictable. The assumption is that because we're all interested in politics we're all from similar backgrounds. I expect there is quite a diversity out there. Don't want to parody the four Yorkshiremen but I was brought up on a council estate and, from the age of 11, in a one parent family. I left school without academic qualifications and worked from the age of 16 to 24 the last six years of which as a bus conductor then a driver. My academic career began because I was a union representative and advised to go to Ruskin. I am now very well off, but most of my family is still what would be described as traditional working class and I know the struggles that they are going through. As a final point, unlike steve I do not believe that Brexit has had the most impact on the life of my family whereas austerity has had a huge impact. Whilst I would like to see Brexit reversed I cannot consider that it should be a priority for the next government.
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Post by crossbat11 on Jan 24, 2024 15:47:12 GMT
Dave,
I won't tit-for-tat another point by point response to your post. You make some interesting points but I've sort of pledged my troth on the issue and we'll both be in danger of repeating ourselves if we re-enter the debate. Maybe some of my metaphors and language were colourful and provocative, but that's how I like to pitch the argument sometimes, as my long time readers will know. More for my own amusement than anything else, really. As I've said before, my main purpose in coming to this place is to entertain myself.
On the class point, one that's been made a number of times, I'm sure that most, but not all, of the posters on here are indeed from the educational and social classes you describe, but that shouldn't invalidate their arguments nor should it be a basis for stereotyping their political views or the reasons why they hold them.
I'm sure there are plenty of affluent and middle class people who abhorred austerity, just as there are many working class people who bought the austerity "maxed out credit card" argument that Osborne used. I've met many of them. We shouldn't be living beyond our means, most public spending is wasteful, Labour broke the bank etc etc
Brexit fits these contradictions too. Class is no longer much of a guide to anything these days, certainly not political views and voting behaviours.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 24, 2024 16:02:06 GMT
.My dad and I were the first male members of his family for three generations not to have criminal convictions and not to spend time in prison. But you did spent a lot of time in police stations answering questions! Thats an awfully middle class way of continuing the family traditions.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 24, 2024 16:11:54 GMT
Mrs SDA dabbles in family history and it turns out I'm descended from Cardinal Wolseley, via his illegitimate son. I once saw a genealogy which suggested I am descended from the brother of Bishop Ridley who was burned in 1555 for his part in supporting Lady Jane Grey rather than Mary Tudor to succeed Henry VIII, and for objecting to the imposition of catholicism on England. Which was clearly another government disaster imposed on the people. Wonder if this sort of thing runs in families?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2024 16:24:10 GMT
Dave Just as a bit of background we're not all from comfortable middle class families, my dad was a door to door tap salesman, a very successful one though made a very good living out of it, Faith's dad was a storeman at ICI my mother was a typist Faith's mother a cleaner.My maternal grandfather an unaccompanied child " illegal immigrant " from North Africa, my maternal great grandparents were horse thiefs in Scotland. My dad and I were the first male members of his family for three generations not to have criminal convictions and not to spend time in prison. I was the first member of either family to go to university, we have the trappings now of the "middle class" but it was from pretty humble beginnings. I mention this because I think it illustrates that things are not necessarily predictable. The assumption is that because we're all interested in politics we're all from similar backgrounds. I expect there is quite a diversity out there. I can beat you there Steve. Mrs SDA dabbles in family history and it turns out I'm descended from Cardinal Wolseley, via his illegitimate son. Nothing to be proud about, he was an utter bastard.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2024 16:27:39 GMT
wb61“I am now very well off” Any chance you could chip in for my new guitar? I’ve always been a fan of your posts.
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Post by wb61 on Jan 24, 2024 16:37:37 GMT
wb61 “I am now very well off” Any chance you could chip in for my new guitar? I’ve always been a fan of your posts. The one in the picture looks pretty new! You can only play one at a a time you know
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Post by crossbat11 on Jan 24, 2024 16:40:50 GMT
wb61“I am now very well off” Any chance you could chip in for my new guitar? I’ve always been a fan of your posts. Don't do it wb61, I beg you. For the sake of music lovers throughout most of the North East where the troubled troubadour and maudlin minstrel, sometimes known as Crofty, desperately seeks new audiences, having lost most of his old ones.
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Post by crossbat11 on Jan 24, 2024 16:50:07 GMT
patrickbrian - "Personally I think it takes some courage to express unpopular opinions.." On an anonymous forum where you don't identify yourself and delight in posting statements that are provably wrong, failing to provide any evidence and then lying about what other posters have said? That's 'courage'? Really? Yes, I think you're right. There's no real heroes on here, really. Nor out and out villains either. Just some posters who write things we quite like and others who write things we don't. Many who we don't read either, so God knows what they're saying! No community nor brother/sisterhood either. Just a bunch of anonymous strangers scribbling on a cyber blackboard. The danger is reading more into it than just that. Irritation is inevitable when different political views are exchanged, but it's all rather thin gruel to get very excited about, isn't it?? I came here originally just to "check the scores on the doors" and got drawn into the comments below the opinion poll threads. It's mildly addictive, sometimes, but it should never be mistaken for what I would call real life or vibrant politics.
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Post by barbara on Jan 24, 2024 17:11:07 GMT
I haven't -posted on here for a while I think. I have been on a fortnight's cruise to the Canaries and since I got back I've been really busy with stuff.
Just a couple of points.
1. It seems to me that when we have Tory governments they always eat away at public services, transfer people's money to their mates and donors, reduce people's standards of living and have a strong authoritarian flavour (something Labour governments have too to be fair but more in the direction of the so called nanny state, rather than stopping people protesting etc.) The Tories get away with it for a while but eventually the public get wise to all this and there is then an overwhelming move towards a fresh start and an optimism that Labour will make things better. And Labour when they get in power nearly always do make things better although not as fast or as far as people hoped. They invest in public services adn reduce some of the financial corruption at Westminster and over time people start to feel better about their lives and their country. At this point they start to want a change and think it will be good to try the Tories - why not give them a go, having had time to forget just how bad it was - and so the cycle goes on. Whatever you think of Tony Blair this is exactly what he did during his 13 years after all the asset stripping of Thatcher and Major. Sure Start, reduced waiting lists in the NHS, new schools being built etc etc. the list goes on. By 2010 people were taking this for granted and were either annoyed with Labour about the Gulf War or didn't like Gordon Brown and so punted on the Tories, who, surprisingly after 13 years didn't manage an absolute majority. Sad but probably true. Given the absolute shitshow the Tories have made in this country since 2010 I think that Starmer can be confident of two full terms - after that who knows? People never learn. Not sure about the Tories though. The greenwashing and general amiability of David Cameron fooled enough people in 2010. The rest was down to Brexit, Corbyn and the ultimate shyster, Johnson.
2. Facebook The problem isn't Facebook per se. I'm on Facebook and all I get in my feed, apart from from my friends, are charity appeals, cat videos, funny car and accident video compilations and dancing, presumably because that's what I 'like'. I don't get any political content as I don't engage with any that appears and so Facebook don't send it to me. The real problem with Facebook are the algorithms which are designed to feed people want they want, relentlessly regardless of whether they actually want more. By doing this they don't just give people what they have already 'liked' but lead them on to bigger, darker, more vicious versions , thereby drawing them into ever more unhealthy spirals into the depths of depravity, conspiracy, hatred and violence. Facebook should be monitored much more closely for unlawful and depraved content and the algorithms should be tweaked to prevent this escalation.
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Jan 24, 2024 17:18:50 GMT
It is worth noting that the US national polling (currently showing Trump 1 to 3 points ahead of Biden) is essentially an irrelevance, since the electoral college is a state by state vote. Therefore it is state polling that is worth watching. As a bit of fun -given the election is yet months away - I had a look at the latest Trump v Biden polls for each state on 538 and then worked out what the electoral college (EC) would look like. Currently it comes out at Trump 279, Biden 259. This is a result that is very much in 'all to play for' territory and far from awful for Biden. Trump's most vulnerable states (EC votes in brackets) are: Nevada +2 (6), North Carolina +4 (16), Wisconsin +5 (10), Arizona +6 (11), Georgia +8 (16) and Alaska +8 (3). The one that would send Democrats into delirium would be to flip Texas, where Trump's lead is only +9 and it has 40 EC votes. The state has been getting blue-er, but the Texas Republicans are notably ruthless in voter suppression, so I'm sure they will not permit such a horror to occur. It will be seen that Biden only need flip Nevada and North Carolina to win the electoral college 281 to 257. I think he will do better than that in practice. If you want to be pessimistic the it is fair to note that Biden's lead in the following states is also under 9% (in order of vulnerability) - Maine*, Virginia, Minnesota, Michigan, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Pennsylvania. *Maine - Biden has a healthy lead in Maine 1 and a narrow one in the state and Trump has a big lead in Maine 2, so I split the EC state votes 3-1 to Biden.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2024 17:22:54 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2024 17:23:18 GMT
wb61 “I am now very well off” Any chance you could chip in for my new guitar? I’ve always been a fan of your posts. The one in the picture looks pretty new! You can only play one at a a time you know Is that a yes?
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Jan 24, 2024 17:24:37 GMT
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Jan 24, 2024 17:27:59 GMT
Purple - so UKIP securing half the lettuce vote.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2024 17:29:03 GMT
It is worth noting that the US national polling (currently showing Trump 1 to 3 points ahead of Biden) is essentially an irrelevance, since the electoral college is a state by state vote. Therefore it is state polling that is worth watching. As a bit of fun -given the election is yet months away - I had a look at the latest Trump v Biden polls for each state on 538 and then worked out what the electoral college (EC) would look like. Currently it comes out at Trump 279, Biden 259. This is a result that is very much in 'all to play for' territory and far from awful for Biden. Trump's most vulnerable states (EC votes in brackets) are: Nevada +2 (6), North Carolina +4 (16), Wisconsin +5 (10), Arizona +6 (11), Georgia +8 (16) and Alaska +8 (3). The one that would send Democrats into delirium would be to flip Texas, where Trump's lead is only +9 and it has 40 EC votes. The state has been getting blue-er, but the Texas Republicans are notably ruthless in voter suppression, so I'm sure they will not permit such a horror to occur. It will be seen that Biden only need flip Nevada and North Carolina to win the electoral college 281 to 257. I think he will do better than that in practice. If you want to be pessimistic the it is fair to note that Biden's lead in the following states is also under 9% (in order of vulnerability) - Maine*, Virginia, Minnesota, Michigan, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Pennsylvania. *Maine - Biden has a healthy lead in Maine 1 and a narrow one in the state and Trump has a big lead in Maine 2, so I split the EC state votes 3-1 to Biden. Looks like you understand their system. I find it baffling and weird. You sound hopeful. Do you think Biden would beat Trump ?
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Post by graham on Jan 24, 2024 17:36:41 GMT
The Scillys tome is too thin. Not sufficient slipper impact absorption, I'm afraid. I had the Wilson biography open on the page detailing the 1966 Labour landslide in order to widen the tome to give me more backside area cover. Interestingly, the book seems to automatically open on this page anyway! 😉🤣 I read the biography last summer. Overall both readable and informative. I am a Wilson fan and I believe the process is starting of a more objective view of his historical importance as a leader; this book is part of that process. However, that said, it is not a "warts and all portrayal" as it underplays some of the failings. It does not deal well with the way in which he failed to support Castle effectively when the cabinet was dealing with "In Place of Strife" allowing Callaghan and Brown to undermine her IMO. If it had been more critical it would make it the important historical analysis it ought to be. That said Wilson's pluses as leader far outweigh his failings and this book demonstrates that. Further it does show he wasn't the sly liar he was sometimes portrayed as. He needed to balance the party and sometimes this meant he was not as forthright in his dealings as he might have been. However, that meant that he did keep the Labour Party together and at the very least delayed the split that led to the formation of the SDP. I have yet to read this biography - though I have read the two earlier books including that written by Ben Pimlott. Surely Wilson and Castle were close allies in respect of 'In Place of Strife' in 1969! Ironically those proposals were eventually scuppered by Right wingers such as Callaghan and Roy Jenkins. George Brown had resigned from the Government a year earlier in March 1968 - though he remained Deputy Leader and sat on the NEC.
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Jan 24, 2024 17:39:51 GMT
1). With one obvious exception, of those of us who don't forget what the Liberals were part of the one and only time that they in government this last 100 years or so, I see no venom or lust for vengeance. 2). That's weak on your part Batty. To dismiss the motives of most of us posting about this as "far left troping" or playing to the 'comrades' is a cheap shot and you're better than that. I've said on here more than once that I would vote Liberal if they were the challenger to the Tories in my Tory her seat. 3). "Duped" or led by a "cadre of closet Tories"? A bit of the first over PR and how they were to be targeted by the Tories in GE'15. Mostly the second - Clegg and co could just was easily be members of the Tory party and the Liberals (I have no idea why they weren't). The key players were all in favour of Osborne's agenda. 4). Why though? I'd suggest because they had their arses handed to them on a plate by the electorate in 2015 and realised oblivion lay ahead were they to stick with being Tory-lite or Tory enablers. So the expediency that you talk of later in your post. That, and most of their Orange bookers being hooked out of parliament in 2015. 5). Which I'm very pleased about. 6). The effects of that administration did not end in 2015. The effects of austerity are still with us. They have greatly weakened the cohesion and effectiveness of our society. This bit genuinely isn't aimed at you, as I have no idea if it applies to you or not, but this site has a real middle-classless about it and generally the middle class were not affected by austerity, or at least certainly not as affected as the working class were. It's notable, to me anyway, that often what makes people on here really irate is Brexit, rather than austerity. But then that affected a class who never expected politics to diminish their lives in the same way that it had the working classes. (That's a huge generalisation by the way but I stand by it as there appears to be truth in it from what I see from the direction of flow on here). 7). Your call, regarding the first sentence but I couldn't disagree with you more strongly regarding your second sentence. But if you think the coalition's "sins were probably over-hyped" that might explain why you are as sanguine about the Liberals' part in it as you appear to be. 8). I think it's useful to have both. Excellent post Dave , good to see a bit of Batty bashing - its the main reason I visit this site tbh.Batty does seem to get a bit 'reds under the bed' - and often doesn't pick up on some of the points posters are actually making. There was no left-wing venom from me - I was just stating the point that its totally legitimate for voters to hold the LD's accountable for what happened when the coalition was in power, and if they feel strongly about it (as I and many others do) then its perfectly reasonable for them not to vote LD because of it. Others are totally entitled to forgive and forget etc, that's their prerogative.
The LDs are trying to do a bit of gaslighting of the electorate on this, as do all parities in regards to their record's in office, the Tories being the past masters at it. Over the next decade, Labour are going to heavily rely on voters not forgetting austerity/brexit/Truss to keep the Tories down (as the Tories did to them after the financial crisis). This will likely do the job till an adverse economic event, most likely driven by exogenous forces, undermines Labour's credibility. In the meantime Im sure Tory leaders will revert to hugging hoodies, being greener than Greta and saying they are now a totally different party from the one that imposed Truss on us.
As I said previously, tactically it doesn't make sense for Labour to go after the LDs at this time, but times will change and its in Labour interest that there remains a memory of the LDs role in austerity. The LD are not Labour's allies, they are rivals, and the current truce will not last. They went after Labour in '19 and made much political capital at Labour expense over Iraq, and when push comes to shove, threw their lot in with the Tories.
ps COYI
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