Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2024 8:28:12 GMT
Especially as this is just tory grandstanding. The US could easily have done this on their own. It's important that the West stays united. I heard a report that other nations are involved too. EDIT: Houthis saying the US and UK will pay a "heavy price". Brace yourselves for terrorist attacks. I wonder whether any will be by 'asylum seekers'? Electric car production ceased in tesla germany due components delays. Oil price up. Average Europeans car price plus £1500 if. The Canal is closed.. I suppose we could do as our EU enthusiast says and leave it to the yanks. He would be the first to complain when Trump says _over to you.
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Post by crossbat11 on Jan 12, 2024 9:00:49 GMT
I wonder if our House of Lords based Foreign Secretary, Lord Cameron of Clarksonville, has been advising Sunak on the merits of a little airborne ordnance sprinkling in the Middle East after his triumphant exploits in Libya.
Which didn't turn out terribly well for either the Libyans or the continent of Europe, if I remember rightly.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2024 9:02:34 GMT
I wonder if our House of Lords based Foreign Secretary, Lord Cameron of Clarksonville, has been advising Sunak on the merits of a little airborne ordnance sprinkling in the Middle East after his triumphant exploits in Libya. Which didn't turn out terribly well for either the Libyans or the continent of Europe, if I remember rightly. So what would you do ?
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Post by eotw on Jan 12, 2024 9:12:03 GMT
I wonder if our House of Lords based Foreign Secretary, Lord Cameron of Clarksonville, has been advising Sunak on the merits of a little airborne ordnance sprinkling in the Middle East after his triumphant exploits in Libya. Which didn't turn out terribly well for either the Libyans or the continent of Europe, if I remember rightly. So what would you do ? Stop bombing people
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 12, 2024 9:15:08 GMT
Regarding the horizons scandal it is now being dealt with promptly because it's politically expedient.
The regime has been aware totally of the miscarriages of justice since 2015.
Their response at the time , massively reduce the funding for criminal case reviews, yes the reason why more post masters haven't been exonerated in court is because the regime that's now engaging in hand ringing caused the delays.
Criminal Cases Review Commission, received just £5.93m in 2019 in government funds compared with £9.24m in 2004, there have been no real term increases despite a 20% increase in backlog since.
Let's blame that one on Ed Davey.
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Post by jib on Jan 12, 2024 9:19:10 GMT
Regarding the horizons scandal is being dealt with promptly is because it's politically expedient. The regime has been aware totally of the miscarriages of justice since 2019. Their response at the time , massively reduce the funding for criminal case reviews, yes the reason why more post masters haven't been exonerated in court is because the regime that's now engaging in hand ringing caused the delays. Criminal Cases Review Commission, received just £5.93m in 2019 in government funds compared with £9.24m in 2004, there have been no real term increases despite a 20% increase in backlog since. Let's blame that one on Ed Davey. Bollocks to that assertion. All those honoured need to hand those honours in. We hear now: Post Office lied and threatened BBC over Horizon whistleblower www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67884743P.S. That's the BBC not fake news. #where'sEd?
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jan 12, 2024 9:25:30 GMT
Regarding the horizons scandal it is now being dealt with promptly because it's politically expedient. The regime has been aware totally of the miscarriages of justice since 2015. Their response at the time , massively reduce the funding for criminal case reviews, yes the reason why more post masters haven't been exonerated in court is because the regime that's now engaging in hand ringing caused the delays. Criminal Cases Review Commission, received just £5.93m in 2019 in government funds compared with £9.24m in 2004, there have been no real term increases despite a 20% increase in backlog since. Let's blame that one on Ed Davey. This was made much worse by the tories changing the law in 2014 so to get compensation you now need to prove 'if and only if the new or newly discovered fact shows beyond reasonable doubt that the person did not commit the offence' This is a high level of proof, it used to be if “on the ground that a new or newly discovered fact shows conclusively that there has been a miscarriage of justice', which was a lower level of proof As a result many people who are deemed innocent on appeal can't get any compensation as they can't prove beyond all reasonable doubt they are innocent It was a cost saving measure, pure and simple
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Jan 12, 2024 9:29:09 GMT
So it is quite clear that the US/UK had very little option other than to take action to prevent the interdiction of shipping through the Red Sea. I know Holywoodesque inspired theories that its primary motive is to bolster domestic political support appeal to some, but its unfounded in this case. The fact that China and Russia didn't veto in SC on this should tell you something. Given internal pollical divisions in both the US and UK on Gaza, from a domestic political pov its better to avoid further military entanglement in the region. The key role of the RN has always been to keep trading lines open - hence our involvement.
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Post by crossbat11 on Jan 12, 2024 9:31:33 GMT
I wonder if our House of Lords based Foreign Secretary, Lord Cameron of Clarksonville, has been advising Sunak on the merits of a little airborne ordnance sprinkling in the Middle East after his triumphant exploits in Libya. Which didn't turn out terribly well for either the Libyans or the continent of Europe, if I remember rightly. So what would you do ? Temporarily re-route all the commercial shipping to avoid the Red Sea altogether, bring about a ceasefire in Gaza, start some serious diplomacy in the region in terms of securing a two state solution in Palestine, maybe even attempt to bring in Iran from the cold, work to undermine the far Right backed Netanyahu regime in Israel (the West managed this regime change tactic in South America when it suited them), stop supplying arms to Saudi Arabia, peace in Yemen etc Just stop making enemies in the Middle East and avoid short term displays of futile force. I can't see these random raids on Houhti bases in Yemen having much if any effect in terms of stopping the drone and missile attacks in the Red Sea. Unless of course you go beyond gesture and conduct a serious military campaign against them. In which case you then risk war with Iran and a conflagration in the whole region.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 12, 2024 9:36:55 GMT
So it is quite clear that the US/UK had very little option other than to take action to prevent the interdiction of shipping through the Red Sea. I know Holywoodesque inspired theories that its primary motive is to bolster domestic political support appeal to some, but its unfounded in this case. The fact that China and Russia didn't veto in SC on this should tell you something. Given internal pollical divisions in both the US and UK on Gaza, from a domestic political pov its better to avoid further military entanglement in the region. The key role of the RN has always been to keep trading lines open - hence our involvement. UK direct military involvement wasn't needed, that's optics both for the US and the UK. Other countries such as the Netherlands have provided support without being involved in conducting attacks. I know something had to be done here and I'm generally in favour of more directly confronting Iran especially as they supply the Russians with arms. What irks me is that I know Sunak is rubbing his hands with glee at this opportunity to appear 'statesmanlike' and serious. No leader should welcome events like this, it's very distasteful. All that 'watch this space' nonsense. I see he is off to Kyiv today. Where will he be next week, Taiwan?
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Jan 12, 2024 9:37:08 GMT
Latest YouGov
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 12, 2024 9:39:31 GMT
"Done with Labour and the Tories’: Reform UK attracts angry voters.
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Jan 12, 2024 9:45:26 GMT
So it is quite clear that the US/UK had very little option other than to take action to prevent the interdiction of shipping through the Red Sea. I know Holywoodesque inspired theories that its primary motive is to bolster domestic political support appeal to some, but its unfounded in this case. The fact that China and Russia didn't veto in SC on this should tell you something. Given internal pollical divisions in both the US and UK on Gaza, from a domestic political pov its better to avoid further military entanglement in the region. The key role of the RN has always been to keep trading lines open - hence our involvement. UK direct military involvement wasn't needed, that's optics both for the US and the UK. Other countries such as the Netherlands have provided support without being involved in conducting attacks. I see Sunak is off to Kyiv today. Where will he be next week, Taiwan? We have a bigger navy and assets in the region - its in our interest to take this action. Dutch support was limited to one person providing non-military support. I haven't seen any EU gvt's denouncing the action - quite the contrary.
I think at this stage its critical we continue to show support to Ukraine - I'm sure Starmer will, rightfully, also visit Kyiv between now and the GE.
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 12, 2024 9:47:55 GMT
domjgNo offence but houthi drone and missile attacks over the last weeks aimed at civilian commercial ships , 15% of all maritime trade in the world passes ( or it did) through the Red Sea have been repulsed by warships including HMS Diamond, we were already militarily involved.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2024 9:59:32 GMT
Temporarily re-route all the commercial shipping to avoid the Red Sea altogether, bring about a ceasefire in Gaza, start some serious diplomacy in the region in terms of securing a two state solution in Palestine, maybe even attempt to bring in Iran from the cold, work to undermine the far Right backed Netanyahu regime in Israel (the West managed this regime change tactic in South America when it suited them), stop supplying arms to Saudi Arabia, peace in Yemen etc Just stop making enemies in the Middle East and avoid short term displays of futile force. I can't see these random raids on Houhti bases in Yemen having much if any effect in terms of stopping the drone and missile attacks in the Red Sea. Unless of course you go beyond gesture and conduct a serious military campaign against them. In which case you then risk war with Iran and a conflagration in the whole region. Well thats a nice neat package , but its not risk free -is it ? I dont know if "we" have the authority to "re-route" shipping away from the Red Sea. Aren't these decisions made by the shipping companies ? Supposing a ship gets hit or sunk ? Or were you proposing that our frigate just sits there and continues to try and intercept missiles and drones directed at it ?. You would clearly be asking the citizens of Europe to accept the inflation and supply line disruption which would result from your proposal. Do you think there might be political reaction to that ? Do you think relations with Egypt ( consulted by this coalition about last nights action) would suffer if we abandon defence of its Canal revenues ? What guarantees do you have that Shia Iran or its proxies would cease in their objective to gain regional supremacy over Sunni Saudi and the hated Jews ? I think you are right to ask how this action will stop the Houthi's. I heard an expert warning that whilst they are financed by Iran , they are not the "rational player" that Iran is. Totally unpredictable and chaotic. Not easy. With religion at the heart of it , logical resolutions don't apply I very much fear. I think your commercial solution -abandonment of The Canal -logically results in complete withdrawal from the region and let them fight it out. Maybe that is the only way. ?
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Post by crossbat11 on Jan 12, 2024 10:02:06 GMT
Jib
You get very annoyed when anyone accuses you of Tory sympathies and often state how keen you are that they are booted out of office. We must take you at your word on that but in the real world of electoral politics, how can your obvious wish that the Lib Dems are eviscerated at the next election fit in to what you state is your ambition to see a change of government?
You must know that the Lib Dems are the biggest threat to upwards of 40 Tory MPs at the next election, surely? You would seem to be quite happy if these incumbent Tory MPs see off their Lib Dem rivals in these seats, such is your loathing of Davey's party.
Hence, I can't see how your stance adds up at all. The electoral meltdown of the Lib Dems can only benefit the Tories, no one else, such is the electoral map and voting system that currently applies.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 12, 2024 10:13:37 GMT
UK direct military involvement wasn't needed, that's optics both for the US and the UK. Other countries such as the Netherlands have provided support without being involved in conducting attacks. I see Sunak is off to Kyiv today. Where will he be next week, Taiwan? We have a bigger navy and assets in the region - its in our interest to take this action. Dutch support was limited to one person providing non-military support. I haven't seen any EU gvt's denouncing the action - quite the contrary.
I think at this stage its critical we continue to show support to Ukraine - I'm sure Starmer will, rightfully, also visit Kyiv between now and the GE."I think at this stage its critical we continue to show support to Ukraine" - Of course I agree with that and then some. I just wish it wasn't Sunak doing the supporting.
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Post by robbiealive on Jan 12, 2024 10:23:55 GMT
Jib You get very annoyed when anyone accuses you of Tory sympathies and often state how keen you are that they are booted out of office. We must take you at your word on that but in the real world of electoral politics, how can your obvious wish that the Lib Dems are eviscerated at the next election fit in to what you state is your ambition to see a change of government? You must know that the Lib Dems are the biggest threat to upwards of 40 Tory MPs at the next election, surely? You would seem to be quite happy if these incumbent Tory MPs see off their Lib Dem rivals in these seats, such is your loathing of Davey's party. Hence, I can't see how your stance adds up at all. The electoral meltdown of the Lib Dems can only benefit the Tories, no one else, such is the electoral map and voting system that currently applies. Given jib s obsessional & bizarre attacks on the Lib-Dems he doesn't seem in a state of mind to respond to reasoning about electoral tactics. I have never blocked anyone on this site but I would block him if I knew how to do it.
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Post by jib on Jan 12, 2024 10:25:18 GMT
Jib You get very annoyed when anyone accuses you of Tory sympathies and often state how keen you are that they are booted out of office. We must take you at your word on that but in the real world of electoral politics, how can your obvious wish that the Lib Dems are eviscerated at the next election fit in to what you state is your ambition to see a change of government? You must know that the Lib Dems are the biggest threat to upwards of 40 Tory MPs at the next election, surely? You would seem to be quite happy if these incumbent Tory MPs see off their Lib Dem rivals in these seats, such is your loathing of Davey's party. Hence, I can't see how your stance adds up at all. The electoral meltdown of the Lib Dems can only benefit the Tories, no one else, such is the electoral map and voting system that currently applies. Sorry Crossbat, When you vote Labour you know you get a commitment to statist interventions and a fairly progressive general policy platform for the benefit of society. Equally if you're a Tory voter you know what you get - shrink the state, deregulation and apparently lower taxes..... Prior to 2010 I think we all had a favourite Lib Dem and listening to Question Time was a pleasure as we listened to the alternative "third way" viewpoint. That's now gone, gone for good. I wish the sorry rabble that constitute the empty hulk of the Lib Dems would just get off the bloody stage and let the Greens move in so we can have a new third way approach. I will never forgive the Lib Dems for what they did in 2010, and their pathetic Bollocks (Student Union level) policies since, and they are just political zombies now. Somebody needs to simply remove the head!
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Post by shevii on Jan 12, 2024 10:30:26 GMT
I wonder if our House of Lords based Foreign Secretary, Lord Cameron of Clarksonville, has been advising Sunak on the merits of a little airborne ordnance sprinkling in the Middle East after his triumphant exploits in Libya. Which didn't turn out terribly well for either the Libyans or the continent of Europe, if I remember rightly. So what would you do ? We've been through all of this before haven't we? Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and even Syria have been counter productive and made the situation in those countries worse. Increasingly you can add Ukraine to this list due to backing them but not backing them enough to push Russia out before they devastated the country. What seems like perfectly valid reasons for dropping a few bombs or starting a war turns has always ended in disaster in the Middle East. We all felt for the rebels in Libya being corned while fighting for their freedom but the country is pretty much in a state of anarchy now. I supported that one but not going to make that mistake again. In Afghanistan we had every right to "go after" Bin Laden but nothing has changed there and the loss of life and disruption was all for nothing. Iraq was inexplicable and led to the rise of Isis. What would I do? I think it starts with taking away the argument behind the Houthi rebels disrupting shipping and taking a much tougher line on Israel who are engaged in ethnic cleansing, indiscriminate bombing and extensive, openly admitted war crimes. This is all based on just the statements many of their leaders and politicians have been making, as well as the civilian and journalist casualty rates and the levelling of whole areas in Gaza. That's without the clear breaches of international law in video clips of Israeli soldiers' actions even ignoring the less verifiable ones or hearsay (white phosphorous, hospital bombings) many of which will be true anyway. Instead we are busy arming Israel without conditions and promoting bills to prevent BDS. So yes, disrupting shipping should be a reason to take proportionate action but it never quite works out that way in the end. The minute we start bombing Yemen we are involving ourselves in another set of proxy wars centering around support for our allies in the region who, in the case of Saudi/Iran, are just as bad as each other in terms of human rights. With any sane policy based on human rights we should probably be aiding the Houthis in embargoing Israeli goods until they adhere to international law.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2024 10:33:40 GMT
Regarding the horizons scandal is being dealt with promptly is because it's politically expedient. The regime has been aware totally of the miscarriages of justice since 2019. Their response at the time , massively reduce the funding for criminal case reviews, yes the reason why more post masters haven't been exonerated in court is because the regime that's now engaging in hand ringing caused the delays. Criminal Cases Review Commission, received just £5.93m in 2019 in government funds compared with £9.24m in 2004, there have been no real term increases despite a 20% increase in backlog since. Let's blame that one on Ed Davey. Bollocks to that assertion. All those honoured need to hand those honours in. We hear now: Post Office lied and threatened BBC over Horizon whistleblower www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67884743P.S. That's the BBC not fake news. #where'sEd?
View Attachment
Your rants and rambles become ever more idiotic. Have you really no idea how utterly unbalanced your silly mock posters make you look?
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Post by robbiealive on Jan 12, 2024 10:43:14 GMT
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 12, 2024 10:44:12 GMT
"Bollocks to that assertion. "
I appreciate as a brexitanian you are unable to differentiate between assertions and facts.
It's a fact that Criminal Cases Review Commission, received just £5.93m in 2019 in government funds compared with £9.24m in 2004.
It's a fact that the last prosecution of post masters occurred in 2015
It's a fact that from 2016 it was evident to all that there had been wide scale miscarriages of justice.
It's a fact that while those seeking the assistance of the criminal case review commission including post masters has increased by more than 20% since 2016 real term funding for the CCRC has been cut.
It's a fact that the issue wasn't given any priority until it became politically expedient for the tories.
You are a Tory apologist and I claim my £10 postal order.
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Post by jib on Jan 12, 2024 10:48:09 GMT
Your rants and rambles become ever more idiotic. Have you really no idea how utterly unbalanced your silly mock posters make you look? With regards your opinion; "frankly my dear i don't give a damn"
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 12, 2024 10:49:49 GMT
Jib You get very annoyed when anyone accuses you of Tory sympathies and often state how keen you are that they are booted out of office. We must take you at your word on that but in the real world of electoral politics, how can your obvious wish that the Lib Dems are eviscerated at the next election fit in to what you state is your ambition to see a change of government? You must know that the Lib Dems are the biggest threat to upwards of 40 Tory MPs at the next election, surely? You would seem to be quite happy if these incumbent Tory MPs see off their Lib Dem rivals in these seats, such is your loathing of Davey's party. Hence, I can't see how your stance adds up at all. The electoral meltdown of the Lib Dems can only benefit the Tories, no one else, such is the electoral map and voting system that currently applies. Sorry Crossbat, When you vote Labour you know you get a commitment to statist interventions and a fairly progressive general policy platform for the benefit of society. Equally if you're a Tory voter you know what you get - shrink the state, deregulation and apparently lower taxes..... Prior to 2010 I think we all had a favourite Lib Dem and listening to Question Time was a pleasure as we listened to the alternative "third way" viewpoint. That's now gone, gone for good. I wish the sorry rabble that constitute the empty hulk of the Lib Dems would just get off the bloody stage and let the Greens move in so we can have a new third way approach. I will never forgive the Lib Dems for what they did in 2010, and their pathetic Bollocks (Student Union level) policies since, and they are just political zombies now. Somebody needs to simply remove the head! Will you ever forgive yourself for voting for brexit and thereby enabling an extension and deepening of tory austerity?
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Jan 12, 2024 10:51:13 GMT
Jib You get very annoyed when anyone accuses you of Tory sympathies and often state how keen you are that they are booted out of office. We must take you at your word on that but in the real world of electoral politics, how can your obvious wish that the Lib Dems are eviscerated at the next election fit in to what you state is your ambition to see a change of government? You must know that the Lib Dems are the biggest threat to upwards of 40 Tory MPs at the next election, surely? You would seem to be quite happy if these incumbent Tory MPs see off their Lib Dem rivals in these seats, such is your loathing of Davey's party. Hence, I can't see how your stance adds up at all. The electoral meltdown of the Lib Dems can only benefit the Tories, no one else, such is the electoral map and voting system that currently applies. Given jib s obsessional & bizarre attacks on the Lib-Dems he doesn't seem in a state of mind to respond to reasoning about electoral tactics. I have never blocked anyone on this site but I would block him if I knew how to do it. Hi robbiealive, jib represents a certain perspective that is not particularly well represented on this board, and I personally share a number of his views in relation to the LDs. I know some are keen currently to embrace a 'no enemies on the left' united front approach to the next GE, but I can guarantee you the LDs will not refrain from attacking a Labour gvt post the GE or indulging in political opportunism on certain issue at Labour's expense (which they are totally entitled to do). They are distinct parties with distinct traditions - one is not a substitute for the other.
Some seem to want this site to become restricted to the voice of the socially left-leaning middle class, ridicule bully and hound out those who do not share their views, and then hypocritically claim the site is becoming an echo chamber/not attracting new posters. It is incredibly boring and un-appealing if everyone are just posting the same views etc
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Post by jib on Jan 12, 2024 11:00:13 GMT
Will you ever forgive yourself for voting for brexit and thereby enabling an extension and deepening of tory austerity? What a strange assertion to make. There have been two elections since. After 2017 the Tories truly were "on the hook", guess who "let them off the hook" in 2019. Things were boiling up quite nicely in the Tory party up to getting that 2019 election. Should have kept the lid on.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 12, 2024 11:02:46 GMT
Will you ever forgive yourself for voting for brexit and thereby enabling an extension and deepening of tory austerity? What a strange assertion to make. There have been two elections since. After 2017 the Tories truly were "on the hook", guess who "let them off the hook" in 2019. Things were boiling up quite nicely in the Tory party up to getting that 2019 election. Should have kept the lid on. That's just a word salad.. brexit and the fallout from it is what gave the tories that majority and it also distracted political energy and attention from elsewhere so that austerity could continue unchallenged, unnoticed by those it wasn't affecting directly while also of course reducing the economic options for reversing austerity. Well done.
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Post by jib on Jan 12, 2024 11:10:51 GMT
That's just a word salad.. brexit and the fallout from it is what gave the tories that majority and it also distracted political energy and attention from elsewhere so that austerity could continue unchallenged, while also of course reducing the economic options for reversing austerity. Well done. Sorry, your argument has as much depth to it as a salad leaf sandwich!
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jan 12, 2024 11:12:10 GMT
That's just a word salad.. brexit and the fallout from it is what gave the tories that majority and it also distracted political energy and attention from elsewhere so that austerity could continue unchallenged, while also of course reducing the economic options for reversing austerity. Well done. Sorry, your argument has as much depth to it as a salad leaf sandwich! Oh what a great risposte! It's impossible to take you seriously.
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