Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 4, 2024 1:15:36 GMT
The other point that Kellner seems unwilling to acknowledge is the factor of Govrnment recovery. Current MRPs reflect polling which puts Labour around 16-17% ahead. However, the normal fall in the polling lead for an opposition from this point is around 4-7 points. How are you defining 'normal'? Perhaps as an average? I dont know what the stats say, but it strikes as entirely possible that elections at the end of a long run in power where there is a decisive change in voter mood are not going to be well represented by the average swing back to the incumbent at all elections. I can imagine eg that voters might be more likely to have given con the benefit of the doubt in 2015 and therefore swung back, than now in 2024?
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 4, 2024 1:50:04 GMT
That wasn't what happened. Cameron after 2005 moved the Conservatives to the left on social stances and promised to "stop banging on about Europe". Euroscepticism reared its ugly head again when the Tories got scared about UKIPs electoral performance after 2010. Many of us believe that was at least partly caused by the impact of Cameron's own austerity polices Well he didn't stop banging on about Europe, did he? See eg en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Independence_Party#Growing_visibility:_2004%E2%80%932014 For the growing visibility of UKIP at this time and its growing threat to con. It got 2.2% of the vote in the 2005 election. Which is small, unless you add it to the total for con. The results were 32.4% con, 35.2% lab. What would 34.6% con have done to the result, had con managed to bundle in the UKIP vote? What do you imagine conservative strategists were thinking after that election, about why they needed to get onboard UKIP voters? In 2010 UKIP got 3.3%, and in 2009 got 16% in the EU elections, perhaps indicative of its true level of support in a proportional election? The writing was well and truly on the wall before 2010 for anyone who cared to look and I distinctly recall the line con took always sniping at labour 'concessions' to the EU and changes to the constitution without having had a referendum.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 4, 2024 1:58:43 GMT
Perhaps because we have less room? We're about the most densely-populated country in Europe. I'm not going to bother looking it up, but possible Netherlands might be higher. Tell that to Scotland, crying out for more people.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 4, 2024 2:03:05 GMT
Are you out waving placards protesting their arrival, because oddly enough I've never seen that happen, or is it only people with browner skin that are the problem? Obviously, it is. My late father would very precisely have said there is no problem with Australian white returness. I dont believe it ever came up, but I fancy he would have said something rather different about aboriginals. Likewise, swapping white european immigrants for people from all round the globe will inevitably make the problem of integration a whole lot worse. And yet of course he would also have certainly voted to leave the EU. Oh the mantrap waiting amongst those upset leavers for con.
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Post by alec on Jan 4, 2024 7:17:25 GMT
A disease story, but not that one - www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/jan/04/badger-culls-bovine-tb-reportIt's been clear for a very long time that the badger cull for bTB has been misguided, and a way for farmers to offload responsibility for animal health onto someone elses. As with so much in agriculture, the refusal to take responsibility for the industry, the willingness to bleat to the taxpayer for help, and the flat denial of science are all hallmarks of modern farming.
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Post by alec on Jan 4, 2024 7:49:39 GMT
Hospital staff in Catalonia, Spain, now also talking about medical centres "collapsing" under covid and flu pressure.
Again, this is a widespread, global problem, nothing to do with 'immunity debt' catch up, nothing to do with evil Tories, nothing to do with the NHS.
People are much sicker than 2019, on a global basis.
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Post by jib on Jan 4, 2024 7:54:18 GMT
Power corrupts.
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 4, 2024 8:39:38 GMT
In an interesting look at the opinion on war criminal Putin's invasion of Ukraine from within Russia a stark disparity of opinion between those of an age who do the fighting and dying and those who won't. youtu.be/ojTSCHWSBMY?si=97tpu9UL6iwcso61
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 4, 2024 8:52:26 GMT
Only jib could take from the documentary covering the disgraceful behaviour and miscarriages of justice undertaken by the post office between 1999 and 2015 and the routine dissembling to both their victims and public and politicians of all parties and conclude that.
The Most Important Factor is That Alan Bates didn't get a meeting in 2010 with Ed Davey.
Davey was lied to By the post office and Fujitsu,he was hardly unique in this, the then wholly owned by the government post office in common with the lies told to other MPs and select committees.
His fault in common with those of ministers of both tory, coalition and Labour government's was that he believed the reports from the post office, it's a shame he did it's a shame anyone did.
But for jib nothing else in this 25 year long disgraceful episode matters, it would all have been fine if only Ed had spoken to Alan.
If he had what precisely do you think might have changed? Do you think the post office would suddenly have stopped lying , that those actually running the post office who knew the scale of the problems would suddenly admit it.
They hadn't for the previous decade they didnt in 2010 they still don't As of January 2024, no prosecutions have been made against those responsible for the wrongful convictions.
And jib they don't included Davey. Incidentally Joe Rich is a failed Tory candidate who routinely posts disparaging unsubstantiated comments about both Labour and the lib dems while praising serial liar Spaffer Johnson. Interesting but not remotely surprising source for Me Jones to trust.
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Post by crossbat11 on Jan 4, 2024 9:24:41 GMT
I move swiftly on from my temporary role as the forum's on-the-spot reporter on the World Darts Final from the Alexander Palace last night to my day job as acute political observer and commentator. A role for which I regularly receive plaudits and hosannas.
I was pondering Dave's very interesting recent post about his experiences in the civil service within the Met and how they had eventually led him to have both a deep disaffection with a job he once loved and a hatred of the politicians who had caused him and many others to feel that way. This story was linked to a discussion some of us had been having about the appropriateness of, and justification for, hatred in politics. His comments made me think a little bit more about my original position.
I'd drawn the line within democratic politics and argued that hatred of elected and accountable politicians was a step too far. Maybe it's because I regard hate as something visceral and obsessive that does more harm to those that harbour such emotions than it does to those that are hated. It can lead to irrationality too . It may also say more about the hater than the subject of their hatred.
I understand how politicians can be disliked and strongly disapproved of, but they usually end up being booted out of office in a democracy, and we move on. I sometimes try to find saving graces in them too. Maybe this derives from my Catholic background where the forgiveness of the sinner is a key tenet of the faith. Not much else of my severely lapsed catholicism lingers on.
That said, this is where Dave's poignant post made me slightly recalibrate my thoughts. Maybe strong disapproval bordering on intense dislike is justified if you have been deeply affected, both emotionally and materially, by the actions of a particular politician. I can see how that can transpire.
Where I think my basic position pertains though is my bafflement at how such a visceral and dangerous emotion like hatred can be fostered and harboured against a politician from a position of almost academic detachment. A sort of keyboard generated fury about a politician, sometimes directed towards one who hasn't even exercised any appreciable power or done anything to directly effect people's lives. Social media is awash with this sort of moronic drivel. Hatred worn as a badge of honour and paraded with pride.
As for Dave's bete noire Osborne, I get his hatred in some ways, but my advice would be to rejoice in May's treatment of him. He ended up hating her for it too. Wasn't there a reference to chopped up body parts in freezers or something like that? Maybe they both deserved each other in the end.
Anyway, hatred is a waste of time and self-harming. Get even in the ballot box. Political careers end in tears and schadenfreude is a much better emotion than hatred! Johnson got his comeuppance in the end.
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Post by jib on Jan 4, 2024 9:30:09 GMT
Hold them to account
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Post by eotw on Jan 4, 2024 9:39:34 GMT
Perhaps because we have less room? We're about the most densely-populated country in Europe. I'm not going to bother looking it up, but possible Netherlands might be higher. 11th, or 4th if you discount the micro-states. Turkey, Netherlands and Belgium are higher. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_and_population_of_European_countriesConfusingly the figures on Turkey are for the part west of the Bosporus, ie European part or Thrace. Turkey in the table has a density of 515 per km2, pop of 12,231,038 in an area of 23,757 km2 Reality is a density of 111 per km2, pop of 85,279,553 in an area of 783,562 km2
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 4, 2024 9:42:25 GMT
jib I suppose Ed Davey might have been able to have some influence.If he'd been properly informed by the post office. But he's repeatedly stated he was misled by the post office. Why are you prepared to give every other government minister over 25 years a defence because they were misled but not Ed Davey. To be honest as it related to a miscarriage of justice the Most appropriate minister would have been the home Secretary Theresa May from 2010-16. Actually rhetorical question it of course relates to your almost pathological obsession with the 2010 junior coalition partner and nothing to do with anything else. x.com/TomWitherow/status/1742588446223331810?s=20IEd Davey has just told Times Radio "I was deeply misled by Post Office execs" over Horizon scandal. Serious allegation if the postal affairs minister (2010-12) wasn't told whole story by bosses in a government-owned company.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 4, 2024 9:57:29 GMT
A disease story, but not that one - www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/jan/04/badger-culls-bovine-tb-reportIt's been clear for a very long time that the badger cull for bTB has been misguided, and a way for farmers to offload responsibility for animal health onto someone elses. As with so much in agriculture, the refusal to take responsibility for the industry, the willingness to bleat to the taxpayer for help, and the flat denial of science are all hallmarks of modern farming. Says badgers cost £300 each to kill, though badger culling is only costing 1/20 the amount cattle culling is costing. The article suggests the real route of transmission is cattle to cattle, the disease really took hold after the foot and mouth outbreak because it led to so many animals being moved around the country in the subsequent re-stocking. But very much to the point, there is no reliable test to tell whether a cow has TB or not. So we have the exact same problem as with covid testing, people with the disease being free to move around. On the other hand, its clear badgers do get TB, and they can transmit it to cattle. So again the analogy is infected people entering the UK with covid, where unless you can find every single one of them, then you can never stop the disease entering the country or the cattle herd. This argument would suggest we need to kill every last badger, or really it isnt worth trying because its always going to happen. I seem to recall from past reporting that killing every last badger is pretty much impossible too, and there were great difficulties meeting even the 70% targets DEFRA set for culling.
Curiously the article says there is no cattle TB in Scotland. Do english badgers never pass the disease to their scottish cousins? I mean, theres no border quarantine, if they can pass it to each other in England, why not in Scotland? I recall another report which argued culling badgers spread TB amongst them, because it encouraged them to move to new territories where former occupants had been culled out. This might suggest again either you go the 'final solution' route as per Israel or Nazi germany, or it isnt worth bothering, or actually the problem isnt really spread amongst badgers at all, perhaps the local badgers are catching it from the farmed cattle.
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Post by crossbat11 on Jan 4, 2024 10:00:28 GMT
I think you're one-dimensionally axe-grinding again here in your never ending pursuit of a personal antagonism with a fellow poster. The Post Office scandal extends over an almost twenty year period and while a failure of government oversight was part of it, and that involves Ministers of all stripes and hues over those twenty years, the scandal is primarily about corporate dysfunction and senior management bullying, lying and incompetence on a soulless and inhuman scale that may result in the perpetrators being eventually brought to justice for what they did to hundreds of innocent sub postmasters. The currently screened excellent TV drama brings this to light in a very powerful way, and concentrates on the real scandal and its causes. The real villains too and Ed Davey isn't really one of them. He may have been less than brilliant in how he dealt with some of the campaigners complaints during his short time as Minister responsible, but he was not alone in that over the twenty years it lingered on. There was one sort of political hero amidst the scandal though, and that was aristocrat Tory MP James Arbuthnot. He championed the case of a local constituent who was a sub postmaster whose livelihood was wrecked by the Post Office's wrongful criminal pursuit of her. The malfunctioning Horizon computer accounting system had snared her. Arbuthnot then became a diligent campaigner for justice for the hundreds of victims. He made things happen. It would appear too that Horizon's creators Fujitsu have enormous questions to answer. Maybe criminal ones. A very Corporate Scandal in so many ways.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 4, 2024 10:01:24 GMT
In an interesting look at the opinion on war criminal Putin's invasion of Ukraine from within Russia a stark disparity of opinion between those of an age who do the fighting and dying and those who won't. youtu.be/ojTSCHWSBMY?si=97tpu9UL6iwcso61So whats new? There is a similar disparity in the UK between those who reeive NHS services and vote conservative (the old) and those who pay for them and vote labour (the young).
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 4, 2024 10:14:09 GMT
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 4, 2024 10:16:51 GMT
The boy blunder.
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Post by jib on Jan 4, 2024 10:18:06 GMT
I think you're one-dimensionally axe-grinding again here in your never ending pursuit of a personal antagonism with a fellow poster. The Post Office scandal extends over an almost twenty year period and while a failure of government oversight was part of it, and that involves Ministers of all stripes and hues over those twenty years, the scandal is primarily about corporate dysfunction and senior management bullying, lying and incompetence on a soulless and inhuman scale that may result in the perpetrators being eventually brought to justice for what they did to hundreds of innocent sub postmasters. The currently screened excellent TV drama brings this to light in a very powerful way, and concentrates on the real scandal and its causes. The real villains too and Ed Davey isn't really one of them. He may have been less than brilliant in how he dealt with some of the campaigners complaints during his short time as Minister responsible, but he was not alone in that over the twenty years it lingered on. There was one sort of political hero amidst the scandal though, and that was aristocrat Tory MP James Arbuthnot. He championed the case of a local constituent who was a sub postmaster whose livelihood was wrecked by the Post Office's wrongful criminal pursuit of her. The malfunctioning Horizon computer accounting system had snared her. Arbuthnot then became a diligent campaigner for justice for the hundreds of victims. He made things happen. It would appear too that Horizon's creators Fujitsu have enormous questions to answer. Maybe criminal ones. A very Corporate Scandal in so many ways. Sorry, just not true. The Vennells appointment and leadership of denial and obfuscation was under Lib Dem Ministers - Davey then Lamb. They are culpable - they were the Minister ffs. "I was lied to" doesn't cut it. Unfit to hold public office. #holdthemtoaccount #youtoo
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Post by crossbat11 on Jan 4, 2024 10:28:37 GMT
I think you're one-dimensionally axe-grinding again here in your never ending pursuit of a personal antagonism with a fellow poster. The Post Office scandal extends over an almost twenty year period and while a failure of government oversight was part of it, and that involves Ministers of all stripes and hues over those twenty years, the scandal is primarily about corporate dysfunction and senior management bullying, lying and incompetence on a soulless and inhuman scale that may result in the perpetrators being eventually brought to justice for what they did to hundreds of innocent sub postmasters. The currently screened excellent TV drama brings this to light in a very powerful way, and concentrates on the real scandal and its causes. The real villains too and Ed Davey isn't really one of them. He may have been less than brilliant in how he dealt with some of the campaigners complaints during his short time as Minister responsible, but he was not alone in that over the twenty years it lingered on. There was one sort of political hero amidst the scandal though, and that was aristocrat Tory MP James Arbuthnot. He championed the case of a local constituent who was a sub postmaster whose livelihood was wrecked by the Post Office's wrongful criminal pursuit of her. The malfunctioning Horizon computer accounting system had snared her. Arbuthnot then became a diligent campaigner for justice for the hundreds of victims. He made things happen. It would appear too that Horizon's creators Fujitsu have enormous questions to answer. Maybe criminal ones. A very Corporate Scandal in so many ways. Sorry, just not true. The Vennells appointment and leadership of denial and obfuscation was under Lib Dem Ministers - Davey then Lamb. They are culpable - they were the Minister ffs. "I was lied to" doesn't cut it. Unfit to hold public office. #holdthemtoaccount #youtooHave you not been following the ITV drama or reading about the scandal? If you had you would know that it started a long time before Vennells was appointed or the Coalition came into office. Vennells appears to be a johnny come lately figure, albeit a fairly useless one, who perpetuated the misgovernance of the Post Office but she wasn't in the role when the hundreds if subpostmasters had their lives and livelihoods destroyed. She appears to have been one of those infamous corporate cover up stooges that slither around in senior management positions. They often prosper too. I see there is a crowd funding social media campaign now underway to have her stripped of her MBE. Quite right too.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 4, 2024 10:33:54 GMT
I think you're one-dimensionally axe-grinding again here in your never ending pursuit of a personal antagonism with a fellow poster. The Post Office scandal extends over an almost twenty year period and while a failure of government oversight was part of it, and that involves Ministers of all stripes and hues over those twenty years, the scandal is primarily about corporate dysfunction and senior management bullying, lying and incompetence on a soulless and inhuman scale that may result in the perpetrators being eventually brought to justice for what they did to hundreds of innocent sub postmasters. Its clear this story is currently being pushed to try to discredit the libs in an election year. Once again, for following the government line while in alliance with tories. The letter posted above from Ed Davey is dated 2010, about something which happened in the 1990s. In 1995, Peter Lilley conservative minister announced a plan to computerise post office transactions so as to prevent £150 million a year in benefits fraud. The project ran into difficulties, so that labour then considered cancelling it but continued with the project and the system was introduced in 2000-2001. Presumably it immediately started losing money from accounts and enforcement action must have taken place soon after. I did wonder when I heard first this, just how come the post office could not see there was a problem, in that suddenly hundreds of post master had turned into fraudsters coinciding with the introductin of the new system? Its hard to believe the old manual systems could have been massively open to fraud by post masters? There surely would have been discrepancies in accounting before - why would all these people suddenly think they could steal money because it had been computerised? The wikipedia article is curiously imbalanced in what it covers, but it does talk about the incompetence of the Post office in bringing prosecutions privately, rather than them being investigated independently by police and CPS. And also points out that in effect in doing so the post office was acting as an arm of government at the time.
The legal status of the post office changed in 2001, turning it into less of a clear branch of government, it would seem rather unfortunately coinciding with the computerisations disaster. However it continued to be masively susbidised by the taxpayer for years after this, and its not clear when it in practice became a private company. Its still isnt really.
Davey then most likely had advice from civil servants on the official line that this was a private matter for a private company. Obviously it wasnt, since the causal events took place entirely under state control. Moreover, this became a matter of how the whole legal system functions, in that the post office brought private prosecutions where it also controlled all the evidence necessary to prove or disprove a case, and only submitted to court any beneficial to its own case. Operational control and funding of the post office is still essentially under government control because it is a loss making essential service where the profitable parts of the business have been asset stripped from the loss making essential services. So never mind 2010, this is still a matter for government and was clearly so then. However, it was probably at the forefront of government thinking that this scandal would severely hamper any further privatisations, so its existence went unacknowledged officially. By lab, con and libs.
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 4, 2024 10:45:37 GMT
"Davey then most likely had advice from civil servants on the official line that this was a private matter for a private company. Obviously it wasnt, since the causal events took place entirely under state control. Moreover, this became a matter of how the whole legal system functions, in that the post office brought private prosecutions where it also controlled all the evidence necessary to prove or disprove a case, and only submitted to court any beneficial to its own case. Operational control and funding of the post office is still essentially under government control because it is a loss making essential service where the profitable parts of the business have been asset stripped from the loss making essential services. So never mind 2010, this is still a matter for government and was clearly so then. However, it was probably at the forefront of government thinking that this scandal would severely hamper any further privatisations, so its existence went unacknowledged officially. By lab, con and libs."
Well stated.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 4, 2024 10:45:38 GMT
But for jib nothing else in this 25 year long disgraceful episode matters, it would all have been fine if only Ed had spoken to Alan. If he had what precisely do you think might have changed? Do you think the post office would suddenly have stopped lying , that those actually running the post office who knew the scale of the problems would suddenly admit it. All three of con lab and lib had a hand in this. It should be obvious to anyone that a minister of the crown has a duty to stop injustice, and by 2010 it was already very obvious there was a serious problem here with previously respectable people adamantly denying they had done anything wrong. The letter reflects a decision to continue denying that a state organisation had made a major mistake. By rights, that should be a resignation matter for a minister, but is merely par for the course during the 14 years of the conservative government. Vince Cable got fired as a minister when he refused to toe the coalition line on something. Hordes of minister got fired for refusing to stick to the official brexit line. I would think had Davey refused to sign the letter, he would have been fired. I do think government could have intervened way earlier to determine what was happening. Obviously it could. This whole matter could have been resolved in 2010 had anyone wanted to do that, rather than keep stringing it out as too embarassing, and another example of failed privatisation. Compensating the victims was the last thing the Cameron austerity government wanted to do, credible compensation could be something like 1000 people at a million pounds each. Compensation paid to date is nothing like that scale and is still being resisted.
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Post by jib on Jan 4, 2024 10:51:23 GMT
As a general point to other posters.
You have my commiserations if you live in a FPTP constituency where there is no progressive alternative to the Tories.
The Lib Dems surrendered any claim to be progressive in 2010, and in fact were absolute shysters from 2010-15. We now suffer the consequences of their misguided ideology espoused in the Orange Book.
Ed Davey was a co-author of the Orange Book. He is unreformed, shown to be incompetent as a Minister and has served in a regressive regime.
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 4, 2024 11:00:10 GMT
jibWe all live in fptp constituencies for the Westminster general election. I doubt your favoured refukers will perform well in any of them.
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 4, 2024 11:05:00 GMT
I thought Starmer handled himself pretty well in his post speech press conference, he's considerably better at it than Sunakered, low bar, which bodes well for Labour's election campaign.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 4, 2024 11:21:10 GMT
Sorry, just not true. The Vennells appointment and leadership of denial and obfuscation was under Lib Dem Ministers - Davey then Lamb. They are culpable - they were the Minister ffs. "I was lied to" doesn't cut it. Unfit to hold public office. It should have been obvious even while labour were still in power in 2010 that something very wrong was happening at the post office. The home secretary, the attourney general all should have been demanding to know just what the post office was doing. And as i said, this dates back to the previous conservative administration who commissioned horizon to catch benefit cheats. Can't help thinking this concept carried through right to the bitter end, assuming it must be cheats not administrative failure. Just about every step on the way management covered their own backs by denying there was anything wrong with the system. From the software development team, to Fujitsu management, to post office enforcement people, to post office management, to ministers.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2024 11:30:05 GMT
I have no doubts whatsoever that KS is a decent man who wishes to improve the lot of people, however that is not the same as having a foundation steeped in the history of the Labour party and either of its different wings. I fear, likely to mean, in these volatile political times, that KS could be leading a single term administration, that would be disastrous! Actually I've been thinking that KS could be leading a two term administration. Or more if he can sustain even half his current VI lead through a first term policy rollout. If he can cement himself at the centre whilst ACTUALLY "improving the lot of people". And I have been wondering if not being steeped in party political mythology and its various sacred cows might be an advantage. You could say Sunak has that advantage too, but while he struggles to demonstrate that he is not pulled to the Laissez Faire wing of his party , Starmer seems to be showing that he is not beholden to the Statist wing of his party. I mean what is wrong with "improving the lot of people" actually ?. Provided it involves fairness to everyone . The achiever encouraged and the disadvantaged supported rather than the lowest common denominator of absolute equality. For me a mixed economy with the state as facilitator/pump primer , but not owner/producer is just fine-with sound public finances. A Liberal Social policy too is fine if it avoids identity politics and all its destructive micro grievances. Starmer/Reeves/Streeting seem to be ticking that fiscal box. Social policy in the round I await. This article today surprised me-I hadnt realised some of these commitments were in place. www.thetimes.co.uk/article/keir-starmers-caution-conceals-a-radical-plan-qdqf2vmtmIt may not meet the definition of "radical" to his far left, but I think its the sort of thing most ordinary people would recognise as sensible progress. The reason I was reminded of your post when I read it was the author's reference to wings and flying. She has a somewhat different view to you of the way to stay aloft :- "Labour strategists describe reassurance and hope as “two wings of the plane”. Both are necessary to fly but in politics you also need a pilot who can persuade the passengers that he is taking them to an appealing destination."
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Post by leftieliberal on Jan 4, 2024 11:55:38 GMT
We've been warned that this will be the dirtiest general election of all time and from jib it's clear that it's already started from the Tories. No doubt they've got their dirt lined up for Labour too.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jan 4, 2024 11:58:01 GMT
As a general point to other posters. You have my commiserations if you live in a FPTP constituency where there is no progressive alternative to the Tories. The Lib Dems surrendered any claim to be progressive in 2010, and in fact were absolute shysters from 2010-15. We now suffer the consequences of their misguided ideology espoused in the Orange Book. I think you are missing the point. At its worst, this isnt about the lib dems being uniquely evil, its about them being no better than other parties. In reality the libs were systematically better in government than their conservative counterparts. They were mostly guilty of stupidity if they ever believed con would not undo everything they mitigated at the earliest opportunity, so sold their votes for something of no value.
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