steve
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Post by steve on Dec 27, 2023 18:01:26 GMT
colinThe traitor is a dangerous narcissistic psychopath who if elected would endanger us all, I find nothing about him amusing. It is however somewhat ironic that as he's an individual who has routinely insulted and ridiculed people because of physical and mental infirmities that he's now the butt of the same insults. The current number one trending political tweet in the US is currently @trumpsmells. Ridiculing the self appointed hero of his own story because of his self induced body issue might just move some of his support where the fact that he wants to be a dictator wouldn't.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Dec 27, 2023 18:03:25 GMT
If the Israeli attitude to Palestinians was entirely the work of Netenyahu, and his departure by assassination meant that the Israeli state and a large part of its citizenry would joyfully embrace peace and their Palestinian brethren, then it might be an evil act that brought good.
As it is, such an event would make things immeasurably worse, and that is certainly not to be hoped for. Netanyahu is now widely seen as evil by many within Israel itself. Moreover, as someone who has openly sought the death of the leaders of Hamas his own demise in this way would be poetic justice - and richly deserved. Assassination just leads to veneration and mythologising. Disgrace in this life is far more effective. In the middle east context it would just keep the cycle of violence spinning ever faster. If Kennedy hadn't been assassinated it's likely New York City's main airport would still be called Idlewild.
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 27, 2023 18:09:05 GMT
colin Starmer wouldn't be on his own.Pedro Sanchez , the prime minister of Spain has just seen off a strong challenge from far right nationalists. His party PSOE, whose political positioning is similar to Labour has just secured coalition support from Sumar( a further left wing party) and formed a coalition government in November. But the rise of anti democrats is a matter of concern and happy to see it's an issue we appear to agree on.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Dec 27, 2023 18:15:14 GMT
My view of populists is that it is easy for them to sell simple solutions to people. But the problem with simple solutions is that they are often not simple or even solutions
For example Johnson, Farage, Rees-Mogg and co found it easy to blame the EU for our problems. Immigration, 'it's the EU fault', jobs going abroad, 'it's the EU fault', not being able to deport people, 'it's the EU fault', no bendy bananas, 'it's the EU fault' All we needed to do to solve our problems was to 'take back control'
But for mainstream politicians, the reality is much more nuanced and complicated. But that's a far more difficult message to get over, much easier to blame some external 'foe' for our problems rather than look at ourselves
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2023 18:42:26 GMT
colin Starmer wouldn't be on his own.Pedro Sanchez , the prime minister of Spain has just seen off a strong challenge from far right nationalists. His party PSOE, whose political positioning is similar to Labour has just secured coalition support from Sumar( a further left wing party) and formed a coalition government in November. But the rise of anti democrats is a matter of concern and happy to see it's an issue we appear to agree on. Hardly "seen off". Cobbling a 4 seat majority by buying of secessionists.
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Post by crossbat11 on Dec 27, 2023 18:55:24 GMT
colin Starmer wouldn't be on his own.Pedro Sanchez , the prime minister of Spain has just seen off a strong challenge from far right nationalists. His party PSOE, whose political positioning is similar to Labour has just secured coalition support from Sumar( a further left wing party) and formed a coalition government in November. But the rise of anti democrats is a matter of concern and happy to see it's an issue we appear to agree on. Without pre-empting my eagerly awaited New Year Message in a few day's time, it's worth noting too the downfall of Bolansaro in Brazil and Morrison in Australia, as well as the PiS regime in Poland, now replaced by a pro-EU government currently going about, amongst many other things, trying to free up the previously state nobbled Polish media. Scholz won in Germany quite recently, remember. The march of right wing populists is a threat to be taken seriously but their success is by no means inevitable, nor irreversible where they do sneak into power. Governing complex modern democracies and economies is difficult, and requires an awful lot of buggering on with little immediate political reward, but it's lazy and trite to categorise politicians who go about trying to do so, while still seeking public consent and preserving democratic values, as "vacuous centrists" or other forms of abuse. The people to blame for far right sentiment prospering are often corporate interests, media rent-a-gobs and centre right political parties seeking coat tails to hang on to in order to get into power. They create the Trumps of this world. Biden rid the world of him, certainly for four years. Politicians like Tusk, Biden, Macron, Scholz and Sanchez, and maybe Starmer too in time, are friends of us all in the fight, not agents of the far Right. If Macron hadn't emerged, we may well have Le Pen in the Elysee Palace.
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Post by mandolinist on Dec 27, 2023 19:04:40 GMT
Just stopped in to check out the predictions for next year... In much more interesting news, especially for colin, I have just come back from seeing a massive (200+) flock of waxwings. A wondrous sight even through the howling wind and rain. Rather charmingly I also discovered that the collective noun for waxwings is a museum. Incidently I am in the Amber Valley Derbyshire Dales constituency at the moment.
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Dec 27, 2023 19:19:13 GMT
colin Starmer wouldn't be on his own.Pedro Sanchez , the prime minister of Spain has just seen off a strong challenge from far right nationalists. His party PSOE, whose political positioning is similar to Labour has just secured coalition support from Sumar( a further left wing party) and formed a coalition government in November. But the rise of anti democrats is a matter of concern and happy to see it's an issue we appear to agree on. "the prime minister of Spain has just seen off a strong challenge from far right nationalists."
He saw off the challenge from them after the election by creating a majority for his investiture, as Spain does have lots of far right Spanish nationalists - mainly in Vox, Cs and the Peoples Party.
Which additional "far right" nationalist parties do you think were seen off under the amnesty law arrangements?
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Dec 27, 2023 20:07:17 GMT
News of Netanyahu's assassination would be joyously received in many lands. Certainly something to hope for in the year ahead. I don't think hoping for the murder of specific politicians is acceptable comment and arguably breaches Rule 1 of the forum against hate speech. And I say that as someone who is no fan of Netanyahu. I would say the same about - for example - Putin. Calling for someone's overthrow, trial and imprisonment is fine, but political violence just begets more violence. .
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graham
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Post by graham on Dec 27, 2023 20:23:43 GMT
News of Netanyahu's assassination would be joyously received in many lands. Certainly something to hope for in the year ahead. I don't think hoping for the murder of specific politicians is acceptable comment and arguably breaches Rule 1 of the forum against hate speech. And I say that as someone who is no fan of Netanyahu. I would say the same about - for example - Putin. Calling for someone's overthrow, trial and imprisonment is fine, but political violence just begets more violence. . I have to ask whether it is any different to Netanyahu advocating the killing of Hamas leaders? The US made more than one attempt to assassinate Saddam Hussein in 2003. Would a blogger supporting such action have been out of order? Would it have been inappropriate in 1944 to advocate exploding a bomb under Hitler? I am suggesting that those who rely on violence to achieve their political ends be given the same treatment. It is clear for all to see that Netanyahu is exhorting his Einzatzgruppen to complete his Final Solution.
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Dec 27, 2023 20:44:41 GMT
I don't think hoping for the murder of specific politicians is acceptable comment and arguably breaches Rule 1 of the forum against hate speech. And I say that as someone who is no fan of Netanyahu. I would say the same about - for example - Putin. Calling for someone's overthrow, trial and imprisonment is fine, but political violence just begets more violence. . I have to ask whether it is any different to Netanyahu advocating the killing of Hamas leaders? The US made more than one attempt to assassinate Saddam Hussein in 2003. Would a blogger supporting such action have been out of order? Would it have been inappropriate in 1944 to advocate exploding a bomb under Hitler? It's not much different - and as you say Netanyahu is evil to advocate such. You are, therefore, damned by your own logic.
That's not my judgment on you. It's your own judgment on yourself
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graham
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Post by graham on Dec 27, 2023 20:56:23 GMT
I have to ask whether it is any different to Netanyahu advocating the killing of Hamas leaders? The US made more than one attempt to assassinate Saddam Hussein in 2003. Would a blogger supporting such action have been out of order? Would it have been inappropriate in 1944 to advocate exploding a bomb under Hitler? It's not much different - and as you say Netanyahu is evil to advocate such. You are, therefore, damned by your own logic.
That's not my judgment on you. It's your own judgment on yourselfNot really. I have never claimed to be a pacifist , and have no problem with seeing those who bring death and destruction to others being 'taken out.' I have made similar comments in the past re - Blair and Bush - given the lack of any serious prospect of them being brought to trial for their criminal acts.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Dec 27, 2023 21:04:13 GMT
I don't think hoping for the murder of specific politicians is acceptable comment and arguably breaches Rule 1 of the forum against hate speech. And I say that as someone who is no fan of Netanyahu. I would say the same about - for example - Putin. Calling for someone's overthrow, trial and imprisonment is fine, but political violence just begets more violence. . I have to ask whether it is any different to Netanyahu advocating the killing of Hamas leaders? The US made more than one attempt to assassinate Saddam Hussein in 2003. Would a blogger supporting such action have been out of order? Would it have been inappropriate in 1944 to advocate exploding a bomb under Hitler? I am suggesting that those who rely on violence to achieve their political ends be given the same treatment. It is clear for all to see that Netanyahu is exhorting his Einzatzgruppen to complete his Final Solution.
I agreed with Corbyn when he said it would have been better had Osama bin Laden been arrested and put on trial (a comment much condemned on the right at the time). If you advocate assassination as a method of 'justice' just because you don't like their behaviour then you can't very well complain if someone assassinates a democratically elected leader they don't like. Not at all a line to go down I would suggest.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Dec 27, 2023 21:11:26 GMT
It's not much different - and as you say Netanyahu is evil to advocate such. You are, therefore, damned by your own logic.
That's not my judgment on you. It's your own judgment on yourself Not really. I have never claimed to be a pacifist , and have no problem with seeing those who bring death and destruction to others being 'taken out.' I have made similar comments in the past re - Blair and Bush - given the lack of any serious prospect of them being brought to trial for their criminal acts. That is basically no different from the nutters who brought a gallows to hang Mike Pence or the people who murdered Jo Cox and David Amess. New morale compass needed I would suggest.
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graham
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Post by graham on Dec 27, 2023 21:14:17 GMT
I have to ask whether it is any different to Netanyahu advocating the killing of Hamas leaders? The US made more than one attempt to assassinate Saddam Hussein in 2003. Would a blogger supporting such action have been out of order? Would it have been inappropriate in 1944 to advocate exploding a bomb under Hitler? I am suggesting that those who rely on violence to achieve their political ends be given the same treatment. It is clear for all to see that Netanyahu is exhorting his Einzatzgruppen to complete his Final Solution.
I agreed with Corbyn when he said it would have been better had Osama bin Laden been arrested and put on trial (a comment much condemned on the right at the time). If you advocate assassination as a method of 'justice' just because you don't like their behaviour then you can't very well complain if someone assassinates a democratically elected leader they don't like. Not at all a line to go down I would suggest. It depends - in my view- on whether the violence is continuing and ongoing as is the case in Gaza today and Europe in 1944. I agree with your comments re- Bin Laden given that there was the prospect of apprehending him. Also when there is no prospect of those who pursued violence being charged or brought to trial - as in the cases of Blair and Bush - I find it easy to understand why some victims might seek revenge by trying to 'take them out.'
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graham
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Post by graham on Dec 27, 2023 21:16:40 GMT
Not really. I have never claimed to be a pacifist , and have no problem with seeing those who bring death and destruction to others being 'taken out.' I have made similar comments in the past re - Blair and Bush - given the lack of any serious prospect of them being brought to trial for their criminal acts. That is basically no different from the nutters who brought a gallows to hang Mike Pence or the people who murdered Jo Cox and David Amess. New morale compass needed I would suggest. Not at all. I am not aware that Mike Pence, Jo Cox or David Amess ordered the deaths of anybody.
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Post by mercian on Dec 27, 2023 21:25:41 GMT
My view of populists is that it is easy for them to sell simple solutions to people. But the problem with simple solutions is that they are often not simple or even solutions For example Johnson, Farage, Rees-Mogg and co found it easy to blame the EU for our problems. Immigration, 'it's the EU fault', jobs going abroad, 'it's the EU fault', not being able to deport people, 'it's the EU fault', no bendy bananas, 'it's the EU fault' All we needed to do to solve our problems was to 'take back control'But for mainstream politicians, the reality is much more nuanced and complicated. But that's a far more difficult message to get over, much easier to blame some external 'foe' for our problems rather than look at ourselves And to have politicians who were able to use that control effectively. This didn't happen, but Covid did have a big impact on government 'bandwidth'.
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Post by mercian on Dec 27, 2023 21:30:37 GMT
I don't think hoping for the murder of specific politicians is acceptable comment and arguably breaches Rule 1 of the forum against hate speech. And I say that as someone who is no fan of Netanyahu. I would say the same about - for example - Putin. Calling for someone's overthrow, trial and imprisonment is fine, but political violence just begets more violence. . I have to ask whether it is any different to Netanyahu advocating the killing of Hamas leaders? Netanyahu isn't subject to the rules of this forum as far as I know. He could be using a pseudonym I suppose.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Dec 27, 2023 21:46:23 GMT
The mighty Wolves have extended their winning streak to...2, thrashing Brentford 4-1 away from home
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Dec 27, 2023 22:05:41 GMT
Just stopped in to check out the predictions for next year... In much more interesting news, especially for colin , I have just come back from seeing a massive (200+) flock of waxwings. A wondrous sight even through the howling wind and rain. Rather charmingly I also discovered that the collective noun for waxwings is a museum. Incidently I am in the Amber Valley Derbyshire Dales constituency at the moment. Surely a shoe in for Amber Rudd?
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Dec 27, 2023 22:15:49 GMT
Such generosity! and so modest about her charity (though she's probably put the choccies on her expenses).
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Post by mercian on Dec 27, 2023 23:39:05 GMT
colin The traitor is a dangerous narcissistic psychopath who if elected would endanger us all, I find nothing about him amusing. It is however somewhat ironic that as he's an individual who has routinely insulted and ridiculed people because of physical and mental infirmities that he's now the butt of the same insults. The current number one trending political tweet in the US is currently @trumpsmells. Ridiculing the self appointed hero of his own story because of his self induced body issue might just move some of his support where the fact that he wants to be a dictator wouldn't. I agree that Trump is a pretty repellent and dangerous individual, but Biden should be in a care home. The American system seems totally ossified and corrupted if they can't find better candidates from a population of hundreds of millions. I think part of the problem is that there seems to be little or no third force. A two-party state is on this evidence little if any better than a one-party state. In the UK we have a similar situation in that only two parties have ever looked possible parties of government since at least WWII. However the HoC is leavened by various other parties such as SNP, LibDems, the Northern Irish parties and a few others. In addition insurgents such as UKIP (in the past), Reform UK and Green can affect election results even if they only ever get one or two MPs at present. In 2010 this led to a coalition and at other times there have been agreements of some sort between the governing party and one of the minnows (usually LibDem or DUP). IMO this means that our system works better than the US model, though like several other contributors I am in favour of some form of PR. I would be interested in opinions on why there is no real third force in US politics. I presume it's something to do with the system they use, and while I know a bit about it I can't quite put my finger on why third parties are effectively excluded altogether.
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Post by lens on Dec 28, 2023 0:37:52 GMT
I would be interested in opinions on why there is no real third force in US politics. I presume it's something to do with the system they use, and while I know a bit about it I can't quite put my finger on why third parties are effectively excluded altogether. Money? To stand any chance in US politics, you have to spend a huge amount. So it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy - difficult to raise that sort of cash unless you can show a realistic chance of being successful, which historically has meant being Democrat or Republican? And yes to the previous point. If I was eligible to vote it would go to Biden - but simply because he's not Trump. Lesser of two evils. Hardly a ringing endorsement.
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Dec 28, 2023 0:55:06 GMT
mercian
"I would be interested in opinions on why there is no real third force in US politics".
One reason is that "third forces" tend to make an occasional pitch for the Presidency in the hope of getting Federal wide publicity (which doesn't happen and costs them all of their limited resources), while ignoring the grassroots model - start with getting elected at county, then state level : build on local activists to secure future success : become a strong influence in 1 or more states and there is a chance to break through at Federal level.
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Dec 28, 2023 1:01:44 GMT
Even ignoring the storm conditions (which Cleverly is free to deploy as a manifestation of Tory power of the elements, should he wish), the context of his tweet, at this particular season, is reminiscent of "No Room at the Inn".
Bad politics, from a foolish politician.
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Post by moby on Dec 28, 2023 5:10:23 GMT
I don't disagree Colin. I think the FPTP 'democracies' of the UK and USA are now seriously flawed, driven by short termism and cults of personality rather than policy and long term strategy. I don't see a way out unless a populist figure comes in who is also willing to change the sytem itself, to his or her own detriment. A Kennedy figure (Robert, John or maybe even Charles...). Our opportunity should have come with Blair who was young and willing to change things up but petrified and ossified in his second term. I think the "failure" is less to do with electoral systems than with political governance-and certainly not restricted to USA & UK. I think the failure -over some years -has been the vacuous complacency of mainstream/ centrist politicians in the face of global changes affecting & concerning ordinary people. I think your characterisation of the Blair administration as "ossified" is a good one. The post Pandemic , post QE, post Energy war era has magnified those concerns. The trick to pull off is to satisfy the demands of two groups-the better off "liberals" who can afford to worry about the rights of others ; and the less well off "conservatives" who must prioritise their own well being. The success of right wing populists across Europe is, I believe, in large part a response to that complacency. I get the impression that Starmer understands this, from what he says & does. I hope so. Talking about complacency about political governance, didn't you vote for Johnson in 2019? Sorry to go on about that but it's hardly a good look to complain about the state of the world and the rise of populism if your actions contributed towards it, is it! Why don't you now spend your energy on exposing the toxic corrosive effects of the populists themselves as an act of penance instead of whining about the inadequate responses from the mainstream politicians to the concerns of 'ordinary people'. Isn't the focus of your energy being misdirected? It does seem to me that all you seem to be doing is saying ....well my guy has proven to be a 'bad un' but woe betide us all anyway because no one else has any (worthy of the name) answers either. That really does seem to be a grim relish that those of us looking for alternate solutions are inevitably going to fail as well. Remember at least our system of governance was able to bring to account the corrupt lying charlatan and through the bravery of people like Harriet Harman and the Privileges Committee get him exposed for what he was. This is something that seems impossible to do across the pond in relation to their corrupt lying charlatan! Thinking more generally and positively I'd like to add there has been some good under reported work done behind the scenes by policy influencers; the National Audit Office did a good report on fraud and a highly respected report was prepared by the Resolution Foundation on poverty, something for Starmer there to get his teeth into regarding future standards and values of governance if elected? www.resolutionfoundation.org/publications/the-living-standards-outlook-2023/www.nao.org.uk/reports/tackling-fraud-and-corruption-against-government/Regarding the big picture the only way any of us can influence the outcome of 'global change' is to address the day to day issues we face in our own lives in a pro social way. Musing about the awful state of the world is really wasted energy especially if your one go to solution is to fixate on the vast movement of peoples across continents. You may as well complain about the tide coming in. Technology enables people living in poverty to observe a better future for themselves and their loved ones on a mobile phone. Those are the values that neo liberal capitalism is built on.....competition and opportunity taken by those who have the energy and drive to improve themselves. Free market capitalism is surely for everyone though, not just for people who live in rich countries. Perhaps you believe we should end capitalism now though, build the wall and raise the tariffs, now the wealth has been extracted, accumulated and distributed in a way that suits us. I doubt you'll get many takers for that argument though in China, India, Nigeria etc.
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 28, 2023 6:55:05 GMT
mercian " I agree that Trump is a pretty repellent and dangerous individual, but Biden should be in a care home. "I You are falling for the media focus on Biden's age and the projection from the GOP and its media outlets. It isn't the current US President who wasn't aware who he beat in a general election , who confused Jeb Bush with George Bush, who thinks Barack Obama is still president, who doesn't know who is the leader of Turkey who thinks Austria borders Russia, who thinks wind farms kill whales, who said the above in just the last two weeks and much much more even more delusional stuff repeatedly and continuing to do so time after time , despite the fact it's all bollocks, who does so because he's obviously cognitively declining, in addition to being a rapist and a traitor. Joe Biden however is a bit doddery now and then but clearly isn't delusional and is fully aware of His brief. I have said I would prefer a younger candidate standing for office as Biden will be 82 in January 25 anf is simply too old the demands of the job alone are quite possibly going to see his death in office.But while the traitor is on the republican ticket there's no realistic possibility of Biden standing down other than through physical infirmity. Here's the " stable genius " in his own words youtu.be/N5x2ZR0DIyM?si=DWPKgXSrahRmkhgI
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 28, 2023 7:01:14 GMT
"James Cleverly🇬🇧 @jamescleverly · Follow There were no small boat arrivals over Christmas for the first time since they started in 2018."
I'm sure I remember Christmases happening before 2018 and boats of various sizes crossing the channel in late December as early as 2017!
Storm hits channel regime claims success! It's pathetic.
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 28, 2023 7:27:29 GMT
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Post by crossbat11 on Dec 28, 2023 7:56:29 GMT
"James Cleverly🇬🇧 @jamescleverly · Follow There were no small boat arrivals over Christmas for the first time since they started in 2018." I'm sure I remember Christmases happening before 2018 and boats of various sizes crossing the channel in late December as early as 2017! Storm hits channel regime claims success! It's pathetic. James "Gravitas" (TM: Sage of Diversity, Sir Trevor Phillips) Cleverly is fast becoming the poster boy of government incompetence. Does anyone better exemplify the paucity of talent in Tory politics, or expose the danger of letting such utter mediocrities anywhere near the levers of power? I'm back to Cummings again with his thoughts on the nation being presented with Johnson and Corbyn as their choice for national leader in 2019. A clear sign our political system is broken. Cleverly is another canary in the mine signalling it really is time to essentially wrap it all up and start again.
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