18-OCT 2023 : LAB 44% / CON 28% / LDM 9% / REF 7%

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Dec 12, 2023 19:52:18 GMT pjw1961 said:

Dec 12, 2023 18:20:29 GMT jib said:

You've got to hand it to this Starmer fella, he really knows when to put the boot in.

Will cause a lot of frothing for open borders friends though!


View Attachment

Nothing about that in Starmer's speech: labour.org.uk/updates/press-releases/keir-starmers-speech-in-buckinghamshire/

After informing us that "I grew-up working class, my dad was a toolmaker, my mum was a nurse" - which I think he may have mentioned once or twice before - the section on immigration says:

"The Rwanda deal is the perfect example. A policy that they knew would never work and yet the charade continues. Two hundred and ninety million pounds of taxpayers money spent on an exercise – and a failed one at that in Conservative party management. And of course, not a single person has been sent, and even if we did send people we would pay for their hotels and upkeep, and we’d have to resettle refugees from Rwanda in exchange. That’s the ‘deal’ they are voting on today. To be fair, you have to credit the Rwandan Government, they certainly saw Rishi Sunak coming.

But look, I am genuinely grateful to them for one thing, because according to the Prime Minister it is only the concern for international law shown by the Rwandan Government that stopped him from ripping up Britain’s commitment to follow the European Convention on Human Rights. An achievement, not just of this nation, but of Winston Churchill and the Conservative Party that brought peace and protection to the world, following our victory over fascism. You know, even now, they have the cheek to call their kind of politics ‘common sense’. No. Common sense is finding a way to get the job done. Britain is a practical nation. Always has been. Our politics, often led by the Conservative Party, let’s be honest, has always reflected that. But these aren’t Churchill’s Tories anymore. If anything, they behave more and more like Donald Trump. They look at the politics of America and they want to bring that here. It’s all woke, woke, woke. Wedge, wedge, wedge. Divide, divide, divide.

People can’t afford Christmas. If they call an ambulance this winter, they don’t know if it will come. Six thousand crimes go unpunished every day. Common sense is rolling your sleeves up and solving these problems practically, not indulging in some kind of political performance art. This goes for stopping the boats as well. It’s not about wave machines, or armoured jet skis, or schemes like Rwanda you know will never work. It’s about doing the basics better. The mundane stuff. The bureaucratic stuff. Busting the backlogs. Rebuilding a functioning asylum system. Removing people more quickly so you don’t have to run-up hotel bills. And a cross-border police force that can smash the smuggler gangs at source.

I’ve done this before as Director of Public Prosecutions when we took on the terrorists and the people-smugglers. I know it can work and we can do the same here. Stopping the boats means stopping the gimmicks, and if they can’t find a way to do that, if they can’t find a way to focus on the job, fix our problems without breaking international law, unlike every government before them, then it’s time to stand aside and let the Labour Party do it for them."

well yes, because it wasn’t in the speech! He discussed it with journalists when they were asking questions apparently: 


“The Labour leader said he would look at offshore processing, used by countries such as Australia, in a significant hardening of his stance on border controls.

However, during a speech to mark the fourth anniversary of the 2019 election, he insisted “straight deportation schemes” such as the Rwanda policy will not work.

In his punchiest rhetoric yet, Sir Keir accused the Tories of having descended into an “indulgent vortex” of infighting over their approach to migration.

Sir Keir said the Government’s plan to deport migrants to Africa was “built on sand” and accused rebel Tory MPs of having “half an eye” on a future leadership contest.

But asked whether he would consider sending asylum seekers abroad, the Labour leader said he was open to the idea of offshore processing.

“The Rwanda scheme…is a straight deportation scheme in relation to people who have already arrived”, he told reporters at Silverstone race track.

“Other countries around the world do have schemes where they divert people away for processing elsewhere. That’s a different kind of scheme and I’ll look at any scheme that might work.”

[pjw1961]

Dec 13, 2023 8:49:52 GMT crossbat11 said:

When I spoke about Labour making common electoral cause with anti-Tory parties so that our voting system could be best gamed to oust this current government, I suppose I was inadvertently omitting to mention an unlikely ally in this noble and important endeavour. They won't need to be accommodated or bargained with either. They may well become the key wrecking ball on the right that delivers the ultimate demolition.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the heirs to UKIP; our unlikely friends Reform UK. I sense 2019 Tory voters starting to drift to them and they have a leadership in Tice, possibly soon to be supplemented by Tarzan Farage, who detest the Tory Party and seem hell bent on destroying it.

They could mutate from being the Tories great electoral friends, as they were in 2019, when Farage did a deadly deal with Johnson, to the agents that nailed the Tory coffin firmly down in 2024.

In other words, this really is time for Nigel to make his last and maybe only truly positive contribution to British politics. Cometh the hour cometh the man.

Then from the post-election wreckage emerges the true heir to the Tory crown.

I wouldn't trust them on that. The British nationalist right achieved first a Brexit referendum and then a hard Brexit by bullying feeble Tory leaders (of who Sunak is just the latest). It is their best route to influence. They have no interest in destroying the Conservatives when that party pretty much does whatever they want anyway. Don't be surprised if some deal to withdraw candidates is done in exchange for a pledge to withdraw from the ECHR and a punitive regime on immigration. 

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Dec 13, 2023 9:59:18 GMT pjw1961 said:

Dec 13, 2023 8:49:52 GMT crossbat11 said:

When I spoke about Labour making common electoral cause with anti-Tory parties so that our voting system could be best gamed to oust this current government, I suppose I was inadvertently omitting to mention an unlikely ally in this noble and important endeavour. They won't need to be accommodated or bargained with either. They may well become the key wrecking ball on the right that delivers the ultimate demolition.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the heirs to UKIP; our unlikely friends Reform UK. I sense 2019 Tory voters starting to drift to them and they have a leadership in Tice, possibly soon to be supplemented by Tarzan Farage, who detest the Tory Party and seem hell bent on destroying it.

They could mutate from being the Tories great electoral friends, as they were in 2019, when Farage did a deadly deal with Johnson, to the agents that nailed the Tory coffin firmly down in 2024.

In other words, this really is time for Nigel to make his last and maybe only truly positive contribution to British politics. Cometh the hour cometh the man.

Then from the post-election wreckage emerges the true heir to the Tory crown.

Don't be surprised if some deal to withdraw candidates is done in exchange for a pledge to withdraw from the ECHR and a punitive regime on immigration. 

yes but this is no time for ideological purity PJ! 

[neilj]

Re offshore processing I thought that was what many people of a progressive mindset wanted?
Rather than have people make a dangerous journey, process them in France or better still divert them to somewhere to be processed closer to where they are fleeing from
Really would think it would be people on the right who wouldn't like this?

There is no comparison with the tory scheme who want to remove people already here with no possibility of return even if their asylum claim is successful (only exception is if they commit serious crimes in Rwanda they will ve returned here!!!)

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Dec 11, 2023 19:51:05 GMT lululemonmustdobetter said:

However, I do fear that Reeves is falling far to much towards certain dogmatic positions that will act as a limiting factors on what the government does do.

This is quite the question. People may argue that it’s ok to move to the right before the election, to get more seats, then they can move left after once elected. But how much is that the case in practice? Because when it comes to the NEXT election, then if they moved left in practice, they are putting at risk the right wing votes they won previously. And the other issue of course, is if they are hoovering up the right-wing votes to neuter the left, which also doesn’t bode well for a left-wing move after the election. 

(This was the idea with New Labour. Reassure the right, then tack left, people argued. In practice of course, though they put more money into public services, they actually moved right in many ways. Even more privatisations, independent central bank, more workfare, tuition fees, ramping up house prices and cutting CGT, introducing the private sector into schools etc.

And of course, such things tend to lock out the chance of left-wing policies in future. So it’s not necessarily just a case of accepting a compromise for the moment, but instead, can be one of actually baking in right-wing inequality rather more in the future). 

[barbara]

Dec 13, 2023 9:12:25 GMT domjg said:

Dec 13, 2023 8:31:47 GMT barbara said:

I was down in Manchester on Monday for my fortnightly competition dance coaching.  My coach (aged 40), who is a card carrying Conservative Party member and Brexiter was spouting on about how the Rwanda deal doesn't go far enough. 

Me: "You were wrong about Brexit, you were wrong about Johnson, you were wrong about Truss, all of which have been a disaster. When are you going to question your judgement?

Him: 'Brexit hasn't happened yet".

I quoted James Obrien at him. " Oh yes I forgot. There is a great Brexit, it just went to a different school". I then said, "I've not yet met a single Brexit voter who got the Brexit they thinks they were promised. Do you think that might have something to do with the lies told by the absolute scoundrels who led the campaign."

Him: " You think everyone thinks like you"

Me," No you  think everyone thinks like you, but the polls suggest I'm on the right side of public opinion."

I order to get on with the dancing we agreed a bet for the election. I predicted the Tories will get around 150 seats. He bet a hung parliament.

Mad as a hatter but an excellent dance coach.

40 and a tory member?! That must be some kind of youth record for them.  I admire your ability to put it to one side. If someone like that didn't keep their views to themselves I'd find it hard to collaborate with them. 

He once hoped to make a career in politics I think. He's a typical red waller. Born and brought up in central Lancashire in a council house in a town full of 1950s post war Pakistani immigrants who came to work in the mills who's done very well for himself. He hates benefit claimants (all of them are cheats despite his parents being on benefits), loves the military and a fictional "Great" Britain that hasn't existed since the 19th Century.

We have learnt over the 5 years I've been going to him not to talk about politics. 
It's interesting as he's slightly in awe of my academic record and professional career and often says things like "You will understans this I'm sure. And asks my advice about his business etc. And I respect his professional expertise in his own professional arena.

Within a fairly narrow range we get on fine and tease each other a lot mainly. His partner and associate is a lovely lady I'm very fond of and she loves it when I diss him. 

[barbara]

Dec 13, 2023 9:32:44 GMT shevii said:

Dec 13, 2023 8:17:04 GMT barbara said:

Couldn't have said it better. This is the worst time for people to stand on their ideological purity. Plenty of time for that once we have a Labour majority.

Pointless really having this discussion as we all know where people stand and to some degree I can understand getting rid of this Tory government is a priority but it's not the only thing that matters.

However we're a long way from "ideological purity" in opposing current Labour offerings.  Yes we can wait for the manifesto but Reeve's fiscal rules make it impossible to see how they will be any improvement on Osborne's fiscal rules.  The NHS under Streeting doesn't have a coherent road map to any improvements whatsoever other than "efficiencies", an App (benefiting only the middle class and educated "choice" who know how to game the system just as they already do with GP appointments) and more use of private healthcare- none of this makes any difference without more people and more equipment when he's said there's no more money.  If anything if he starts meddling he could make the situation worse and many NHS staff may be holding out for a change of government before deciding to pack it in when their lives don't change.

Green new deal can't wait a few years for "growth" that may or may not come and in any event we have seen on global warming that traditional growth just makes the climate situation worse. There isn't time to waste and this was originally a big plank of the Labour strategy for healthy growth anyway.

Labour is going to get a majority anyway because the country is so pissed off with the Tories. A Labour majority of 50 would be much healthier than a majority of 200. On current polling a 10% Green vote (splitting the vote), even though it won't happen, would make Labour sit up and take note AND they would still be forming a government.  After the election is too late because Labour isn't going to pay any attention to the views of people who voted for a party that got 3% and relying on "they have nowhere else to go" to see them through later elections when they will, again, be focused on Tory voters and tailor their economic policy accordingly.  A few good Green second places and much smaller Lab majorities with perhaps a couple more Green MPs in places like Bristol (not that I'm convinced they are sure to hold Brighton so could be left with no MPs and irrelevant in the short term) will make at least those Lab MPs on small majorities against the Greens push for something different but the huge Lab majorities currently projected mean Starmer can stick with his Tory lite plans with no left wing opposition to worry about.

In the current political situation there has never been a better time to vote for what you actually want because Labour are still going to get a majority.

And how will you berate yourself if they don't because of people like you?

[Danny]

The reith lecture today noted that housing costs for the young had moved from 5% of income to 25% of income now. Not quite sure what was the starting point, maybe he was contrasting with what now 70 year olds had experienced, which he was talking about.

Anyway, that is a 20% income tax rise with no tax free allowance. If you reapportioned it with some sort of tax free band , then you might reasonably look at it as 40% extra on the effective starting income tax today.

Taxes fallen under governments today compared to post war years? really? Not so much as seems!

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

The Blairites aren’t berating themselves for not backing Corbyn when despite their actions he was only a couple percent behind in 2017. In fact they doubled down after. The ultimate ideological purists.

[alec]

wb61 - "Some in the Conservative Party would do well to remember that the last absolute sovereign was Charles II; that didn't end well."

There's 14 years of Tory misrule in a nutshell. The standard of historical knowledge has gone right down the tubes....

barbara & others; yes, I think the narcissism of small differences is certainly something that afflicts the British left at the moment, as well, of course, as afflicting the right also. It's a sad symptom of FFTP, which creates the necessity for large coalitions to aggregate to have any chance of power. It's not uncommon for the spread of views within each of the left/right coalitions to be greater than the differences between the two groupings, as both fight to secure sufficient voters in the centre to enable power, and so these tensions are a natural result of the system we operate.

[pjw1961]

Dec 13, 2023 10:10:38 GMT neilj said:

Re offshore processing I thought that was what many people of a progressive mindset wanted?
Rather than have people make a dangerous journey, process them in France or better still divert them to somewhere to be processed closer to where they are fleeing from
Really would think it would be people on the right who wouldn't like this?

There is no comparison with the tory scheme who want to remove people already here with no possibility of return even if their asylum claim is successful (only exception is if they commit serious crimes in Rwanda they will ve returned here!!!)

Yes, provided it is part of a structured immigration system, with safe routes and respect for international and UK law. For example assessing asylum claims in France would be fine, so long as the process is rapid. 

[pjw1961]

Dec 13, 2023 10:16:57 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Dec 11, 2023 19:51:05 GMT lululemonmustdobetter said:

However, I do fear that Reeves is falling far to much towards certain dogmatic positions that will act as a limiting factors on what the government does do.

This is quite the question. People may argue that it’s ok to move to the right before the election, to get more seats, then they can move left after once elected. But how much is that the case in practice? Because when it comes to the NEXT election, then if they moved left in practice, they are putting at risk the right wing votes they won previously. And the other issue of course, is if they are hoovering up the right-wing votes to neuter the left, which also doesn’t bode well for a left-wing move after the election. 

(This was the idea with New Labour. Reassure the right, then tack left, people argued. In practice of course, though they put more money into public services, they actually moved right in many ways. Even more privatisations, independent central bank, more workfare, tuition fees, ramping up house prices and cutting CGT, introducing the private sector into schools etc.

And of course, such things tend to lock out the chance of left-wing policies in future. So it’s not necessarily just a case of accepting a compromise for the moment, but instead of actually baking in right-wing inequality rather more in the future). 

The way it was put at the meeting I was at was that Rachel Reeves means everything she says, but there are lots of things she hasn't said. Don't forget she is an economist and worked for the Bank of England. There are many innovative ways to raise funds that don't rely on traditional 20th century taxes and borrowing. But the whole point is they have to be a surprise otherwise the Tories (and markets) will move to scupper them in advance. I concede that means taking a lot on trust.  

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Dec 13, 2023 10:53:46 GMT pjw1961 said:

Dec 13, 2023 10:16:57 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

This is quite the question. People may argue that it’s ok to move to the right before the election, to get more seats, then they can move left after once elected. But how much is that the case in practice? Because when it comes to the NEXT election, then if they moved left in practice, they are putting at risk the right wing votes they won previously. And the other issue of course, is if they are hoovering up the right-wing votes to neuter the left, which also doesn’t bode well for a left-wing move after the election. 

(This was the idea with New Labour. Reassure the right, then tack left, people argued. In practice of course, though they put more money into public services, they actually moved right in many ways. Even more privatisations, independent central bank, more workfare, tuition fees, ramping up house prices and cutting CGT, introducing the private sector into schools etc.

And of course, such things tend to lock out the chance of left-wing policies in future. So it’s not necessarily just a case of accepting a compromise for the moment, but instead of actually baking in right-wing inequality rather more in the future). 

The way it was put at the meeting I was at was that Rachel Reeves means everything she says, but there are lots of things she hasn't said. Don't forget she is an economist and worked for the Bank of England. There are many innovative ways to raise funds that don't rely on traditional 20th century taxes and borrowing. But the whole point is they have to be a surprise otherwise the Tories (and markets) will move to scupper them in advance. I concede that means taking a lot on trust.  

Indeed PJ, I’m keeping an open mind. I have put more positive scenarios forward before, in which Starmer is more Anglo than Euro and hence potentially more pro-stimulus and state action and so on. He has made a point of saying class still matters etc., and that we need more jobs of the kind I happen to think might be of benefit. But given the lack of info and the u-turns and so on, it’s an idea to also consider less palatable possibilities from a left-wing perspective, and particularly unpalatable might be not just a temporary move right, but efforts to lock it in.

(re: Reeves working for the BoE, it gives me no great pleasure to point out that so did Hancock. That said, I agree with you, that there is more potential to raise funds than some might think, which reminds me I had a couple of replies written on the matter for lulu’s return…)

[hireton]

Mark Drakeford is stepping down with immediate effect as Welsh First Minister.

[leftieliberal]

I hadn't seen this poem by Benjamin Zephaniah before, but I think it sums us up pretty well.

The British Poem.
Take some Picts, Celts and Silures
And let them settle,
Then overrun them with Roman conquerors.
Remove the Romans after approximately 400 years
Add lots of Norman French to some
Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Vikings, then stir vigorously.
Mix some hot Chileans, cool Jamaicans, Dominicans,
Trinidadians and Bajans with some Ethiopians, Chinese,
Vietnamese and Sudanese.
Then take a blend of Somalians, Sri Lankans, Nigerians
And Pakistanis,
Combine with some Guyanese
And turn up the heat.
Sprinkle some fresh Indians, Malaysians, Bosnians,
Iraqis and Bangladeshis together with some
Afghans, Spanish, Turkish, Kurdish, Japanese
And Palestinians
Then add to the melting pot.
Leave the ingredients to simmer.
As they mix and blend allow their languages to flourish
Binding them together with English.
Allow time to be cool.
Add some unity, understanding, and respect for the future,
Serve with justice
And enjoy.

Note: All the ingredients are equally important. Treating one ingredient better than another will leave a bitter unpleasant taste.
Warning: An unequal spread of justice will damage the people and cause pain. Give justice and equality to all.
Benjamin Zephaniah

[wb61]

Dec 13, 2023 11:37:32 GMT hireton said:

Mark Drakeford is stepping down with immediate effect as Welsh First Minister.

I would expect that there will be three potential candidates: Vaughn Gethin, Jeremy Miles and Eluned Morgan although Dawn Bowden as a new face and a former TU officer might also have some support.

[hireton]

wb61

"Some in the Conservative Party would do well to remember that the last absolute sovereign was Charles II; that didn't end well."

Charles I?

Charles II was bound by the Bill of Rights in England and in Scotland by the Claim of Right, a stronger statement of limited monarchy than the Bill of Rights, and his determination not to go on his travels again.

[neilj]

I have just found out my MP Jesse Norman was the only one nation tory to abstain on the Rwanda vote
I may not agree with all his politics, but on more than one occasion I have has cause to comment on his standing against the tory crowd
I am hoping come the third reading he will vote against it

[wb61]

Dec 13, 2023 11:58:43 GMT hireton said:

wb61

"Some in the Conservative Party would do well to remember that the last absolute sovereign was Charles II; that didn't end well."

Charles I?

Charles II was bound by the Bill of Rights in England and in Scotland by the Claim of Right, a stronger statement of limited monarchy than the Bill of Rights, and his determination not to go on his travels again.

Quite correct, I am properly admonished.

[wb61]

PMQ's appears to show MP's to be in "end of term" mood

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Has this been posted already? I thought it might have been but can’t find it…


“Rishi Sunak’s popularity among voters has fallen to a new record low, according to a survey published by YouGov this morning.

The poll, conducted on Monday evening and Tuesday morning, ahead of last night’s vote on the Rwanda Bill, found 70 per cent of people have an unfavourable opinion of the Prime Minister while 21 per cent have a favourable view.

That gave Mr Sunak a net favourability rating of minus 49 - down by 10 points from late November and the lowest score he has recorded since becoming premier in October last year.

A majority of 2019 Tory voters - 56 per cent - said they had a negative view of Mr Sunak while 40 per cent had a positive view.

YouGov said Mr Sunak’s score was comparable to Boris Johnson’s during his final months in office but it was still higher than Liz Truss’s low of minus 70.”

Telegraph

[graham]

Dec 13, 2023 8:49:52 GMT crossbat11 said:

When I spoke about Labour making common electoral cause with anti-Tory parties so that our voting system could be best gamed to oust this current government, I suppose I was inadvertently omitting to mention an unlikely ally in this noble and important endeavour. They won't need to be accommodated or bargained with either. They may well become the key wrecking ball on the right that delivers the ultimate demolition.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the heirs to UKIP; our unlikely friends Reform UK. I sense 2019 Tory voters starting to drift to them and they have a leadership in Tice, possibly soon to be supplemented by Tarzan Farage, who detest the Tory Party and seem hell bent on destroying it.

They could mutate from being the Tories great electoral friends, as they were in 2019, when Farage did a deadly deal with Johnson, to the agents that nailed the Tory coffin firmly down in 2024.

In other words, this really is time for Nigel to make his last and maybe only truly positive contribution to British politics. Cometh the hour cometh the man.

Then from the post-election wreckage emerges the true heir to the Tory crown.

I like the thought of that but doubt that it will actually happen in that Ofcom seems unlikely to grant the Reform Party 'Major Party' status  when it comes to the GE. This will seriously affect the coverage given by Broadcasters during the election campaign - particularly inclusion in discussion programmes and debates etc. Ofcom gives much more weight to votes received by parties in actual elections rather than what might be recorded in some polls. Unlike Ukip or the Brexit Party , it is difficult to see any electoral opportunities for the party before the GE. To date it has done no better than barely save one deposit - at Tamworth - and has had little success at local elections. A far cry from the boosts received by Ukip and Brexit Party - ironically - at the EU Parliament elections.

[lens]

Dec 13, 2023 8:37:13 GMT domjg said:

Dec 12, 2023 23:37:30 GMT lens said:

To answer my own question, then on the entire train journey into central London, in a reasonably full train, I didn't see a single person wearing a mask. Not a single one, amongst scores of people, in rush hour. Same walking down the street just north of Oxford circus. Journey home just now on a half full train and I saw *ONE* mask being worn!

Yet apparently 16% of the survey respondents are strongly in favour of reintroducing facemask wearing on public transport!? So you'd think at least most of them would be doing it voluntarily now anyway? So where were they? Frankly, as far as that survey is concerned, I call bullsh!t!!

In fairness what people do in public when they're feeling under group/peer pressure and what they really think is the best thing to do are often two different things. I'd be very hesitant to don a mask on busy trains now if almost no-one else is doing that except those presumably at far greater risk but if a reasonable smattering of ordinary travellers started wearing them again I probably would too. 

domjg - I didn't wear a mask on the tube yesterday, but if anyone wishes to do so that's up to them. No problem with that at all. And if I did want to do so, I wouldn't let most people not wearing one stop me.

But what I do object to is the idea of this supposed 16% wishing to *impose* mask wearing on EVERYBODY, just so they won't feel the odd ones out! If they wish to impose such a mandate, the least I'd expect is for them to be voluntarily wearing such now.

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Dec 12, 2023 23:37:30 GMT lens said:

Dec 12, 2023 17:16:49 GMT lens said:

I was quoting from carfrews original post (top of page 128), which gives the asked question as : “The polling asked adults whether they would back or oppose the Government reintroducing restrictions if the country’s health situation demanded it"

Anybody got a link to the actual poll?

Could it be as simple as that's what people NOW think should be the case *IF* the situation worsened and "the health situation demanded it?"

Certainly I've been in a very large department store much of today, and only saw the occasional mask all day. About to get the tube in central London, so let's see roughly what the situation is there.

To answer my own question, then on the entire train journey into central London, in a reasonably full train, I didn't see a single person wearing a mask. Not a single one, amongst scores of people, in rush hour. Same walking down the street just north of Oxford circus. Journey home just now on a half full train and I saw *ONE* mask being worn!

Yet apparently 16% of the survey respondents are strongly in favour of reintroducing facemask wearing on public transport!? So you'd think at least most of them would be doing it voluntarily now anyway? So where were they? Frankly, as far as that survey is concerned, I call bullsh!t!!

Are those more worried about the virus using public transport less? 

[shevii]

Dec 13, 2023 10:20:22 GMT barbara said:

Dec 13, 2023 9:32:44 GMT shevii said:

And how will you berate yourself if they don't because of people like you?

Come back to me on that one if Labour only have a 5 point lead.  Plus the stupidity of FPTP won't make my vote mean anything anyway as Labour has got in in my constituency since 1918 and hasn't been a marginal since 1910 when Labour did get in in the January election before losing it in December.

But even if it did I think a Tory win of any sort is now a very unlikely scenario subject to major "events".  The Tories max at the moment would be about 30% which is a very long way off forming any sort of government and currently they're averaging a good bit lower at about 25%. Even if they get back 50% of the Reform vote they're not forming a government.  This is like 1997 where it didn't matter who you voted for because the Tories weren't getting in.

The more likely scenario is that some people on here will be berating themselves for not making more noise about Labour's direction of travel just because it might damage Labour's chances when it could have made a difference to the Labour Party agenda.  You haven't struck me as a Labour tribalist so I'm a bit surprised you wouldn't just say with Labour at 15-20% lead (which already includes Greens on 7%) that voting for another LOC party is much of an issue if someone's views are very divergent from where the Labour Party is at.  It would be the same warning shot across the bows that UKIP gave the Tories in 2015 and the Tories sure did take UKIP policy on board just as they seem to be doing with Reform now.

[pjw1961]

Dec 13, 2023 11:37:32 GMT hireton said:

Mark Drakeford is stepping down with immediate effect as Welsh First Minister.

Looks like he will finish in March 2024, after a successor is in place, so not quite immediate effect. 

[neilj]

Just realised Sunak lied in PMQs when he said the economy was growing and as we know from the ONS this morning it's actually contracting

[domjg]

Dec 13, 2023 12:38:26 GMT pjw1961 said:

Dec 13, 2023 11:37:32 GMT hireton said:

Mark Drakeford is stepping down with immediate effect as Welsh First Minister.

Looks like he will finish in March 2024, after a successor is in place, so not quite immediate effect. 

And he made clear well in advance he was going to do this.

[steve]

Catastrophic losses reported from us sources in the military deployed by war criminal Putin in Ukraine.
With nearly 90% of those originally deployed killed in action and two thirds of Russian tanks destroyed.

Of course war criminal Putin doesn't care and continues to throw conscripts into the meat grinder.
Fortunately he has allies in the Putin enabling anti democratic republican party and it's rapist traitor leader.

[neilj]

More Brexit 'benefits'