Danny
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Post by Danny on Dec 7, 2023 0:11:22 GMT
However the british government has not proposed a solution to the huge funding deficit of UK armed forces, with obvious impact on supplying arms to Ukraine which we do not possess. Another problem for the next government to solve. Yes, defence spending must be ramped up, even if it's just to produce more ammo for the kit we've supplied to Ukraine. Ideally we should be producing lots more armaments for ourselves and have a big recruiting drive too. We could be fighting Russia soon, though hopefully in Poland or Finland. Its not as if the US has not warned europe it is no longer willing to support it militarily, but the Ukrainian war shows both how unreliable the US has become, and also how reliant we are upon it for things like ammunition stocks. Probably also for munitions manufacture.
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Post by mercian on Dec 7, 2023 0:11:35 GMT
She's not the only one, it's like arguing black is white, but at the same time white is black Wasn't it Humpty Dumpty who said that he believed two impossible things before breakfast? Perhaps a great fall is coming.
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Post by mercian on Dec 7, 2023 0:18:54 GMT
This time of year however I am always drawn back to my seasonal favourite films, A Wonderful Life never ages for me and Alistair Sim will always be my favourite portrayal of Ebenezer Scrooge. Agree with both your choices. Around Christmas I always try and watch them along with Gremlins and Die Hard. Cracking Christmas entertainment. Must add I do Like The Wizard of Oz at Christmas time. That and the Great Escape always take me back to my childhood (both being on every fecking Christmas). How does anyone have time to watch films at Christmas time? I'm either with family (actually talking with them) or carousing or at a Christmas meal and so on.
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Post by Mark on Dec 7, 2023 0:41:09 GMT
You know what surprises me?
The tories ripping themselves apart over a Rwanda scheme that IMO was only ever intended to be red meat to a certain demographic of voter.
They (surely?) must have known that the scheme itself was never going to fly (no pun intended) - and even if it did, we're talking about, what...300 asylum seekers.
....and they've bigged it up and bigged it up and made such a play of it (along with immigration in general) that it threatens to eat them alive.
They knew all along that they had a 'send 'em all back' element in their ranks and now it's gone so far that it threatens their own government.
If things fall apart for them over this, they have only got themselves to blame.
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Post by moby on Dec 7, 2023 6:02:02 GMT
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Dec 7, 2023 6:04:01 GMT
She's not the only one, it's like arguing black is white, but at the same time white is black Wasn't it Humpty Dumpty who said that he believed two impossible things before breakfast? Perhaps a great fall is coming. And after the great fall, All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty together again
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Dec 7, 2023 6:31:43 GMT
This is the issue for Sunak and the tory party, the hard right in the party are like a voracious crocodile, no matter how much meat you feed it, they will always want more In the meantime the moderates are becoming increasingly frustrated with having to compromise more and more
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Post by moby on Dec 7, 2023 6:42:21 GMT
I've just watched some edited "highlights" of Johnson's evidence and questioning at today's COVID Inquiry hearings. He is an utter embarrassment, not just in terms of his personal appearance, but also in terms of his pathetic non-answers and shifty evasions. The joke died long ago. We're talking about thousands of people's lives here. The fact that this apology of a statesman and politician ever got anywhere near the role of Prime Minister should shame the party that enabled him and sycophantically prolonged his disastrous time in office. And maybe shame the dysfunctional political system and culture that begot him too. I couldn't decide, having watched his performance today, whether I should have felt sadness, anger or humiliation. He was my Prime Minister for three and a half years. Humiliation is probably what we should all feel, on reflection. If you watched edited "highlights" I wonder who selected them? I listened to most of it on the radio, and though he did have convenient lapses of memory at times he did take full responsibility and admit that he had made mistakes. He also seemed to go out of his way not to throw anyone under the bus, even Cummings. He emphasised that it was a situation unknown in living memory and in the early days they all thought (hoped?) that it would not be a major threat in this country, as SARS and MERS for instance. There was a lack of data in the early days to aid decision-making. I suppose it's all to do with one's preconceptions and prejudices. Rather pathetic summary....imo. I thought he looked like a rabbit in front of the headlights, exposed for what he was, a liar and a fraud, now defenestrated and suitably chastened. Totally incapable of understanding the evidence before him while presiding over a Govmt response that was characterised by chaos and infighting between his appointees. Their egos mattered more than the interests of the people they served. All the bluster, self confident certainty was gone. I was pleased about that. Of course he couldn't throw anyone under the bus ..... that would have immediately reflected on the decisions he made! Also yet again his apologies were fake. Even now he is still saying he apologised for 'what happened' but he is still not apologising for his role in what happened. Perhaps due to having a lack of empathy he really doesn't understand the difference between those two very different apologies. What is clear is that someone like him should have not been allowed anywhere near any form of responsibility over others and it says a lot about the judgement of people who put him there.
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 7, 2023 6:54:02 GMT
neilj The " best" of Tories were defenestrated in 2019 when Spaffer and the brexitanian loons demanded fealty to that particular nationalist, lunatic, imposition of trade and movement restrictions on ourselves, the Tory party effectively became UKIP. While there are no doubt still relative moderates within the party they are overwhelmingly of the spineless variety who will consistently put party and their own advantage above national interest. But being best buds with Belarus as a human rights pariah was probably too much even for some of them, especially if they were in shire seats where being a far right racist arsehole will lead to see some of your support base voting for my party instead. The Tories have brought this on themselves , they deserve it, it's just a tragedy that this decade long clown show has so diminished this country and its international reputation in the process of their own self destruction.
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 7, 2023 6:56:36 GMT
"He was my Prime Minister for three and a half years. Humiliation is probably what we should all feel, on reflection."
What's with the " we" I didn't vote for Spaffer or his destructive xenophobic stupidity .
Those who did should of course feel humiliated and if not shamed just embarrassed by their own gullibility.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Dec 7, 2023 6:59:48 GMT
The Daily Star have knocked it out of the park again with this front page
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 7, 2023 7:00:05 GMT
It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Dec 7, 2023 7:06:06 GMT
Tories won't be happy with the Daily Mail front page either
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Dec 7, 2023 7:36:26 GMT
You know what surprises me? The tories ripping themselves apart over a Rwanda scheme that IMO was only ever intended to be red meat to a certain demographic of voter. They (surely?) must have known that the scheme itself was never going to fly (no pun intended) - and even if it did, we're talking about, what...300 asylum seekers. ....and they've bigged it up and bigged it up and made such a play of it (along with immigration in general) that it threatens to eat them alive. Rewrite that and replace Rwanda with brexit. They didnt want to leave the EU but they did. They likely used to believe in rights for good solid tory voters but now they are happy to abolish those rights. In both cases its about a policy appealing to a certain group of voters which looks like the best chance they have of adding to their total. In the end they dont care about the election after this one. We are in end game now, hardly anyone seems to think its possible to win the next election. So its about how you want to use the remaining parliamentary time, what legacy you can leave for labour, whether you can influence the election a bit at the margins. More talk this morning about bankrupt councils. I posted yesterday about failing schools (and OFSTED simply has too low standards to highlight where they are going wrong). We only recruited half the number of new teachers needed. We are utterly failing to generate the new doctors or nurses we need. We dont even have enough train drivers because we are unwilling to pay them what they demand. And duh, if there were more trained train drivers they would be competing for the fixed number of jobs! All government services will be in a worse state in a years time because all are being underfunded increasingly each passing year. The mortgage situation will get more serious for another three years according to BofE. Government may crow about falling inflation, but its still way above where it was for 20 years, and the price rises already are baked in. Its bad news all the way to the next election whenever it is.
Jenrick personally has about as safe a seat as exists. He seems to be a remainer who has become a born again leaver. He broke lockdown rules. So far very similar to Johnson. I dont know the history of his position, but he seems to have spent a lot of time in the home office and has got the bit between his teeth on immigration.
The first truth to be acknowledged is that refugees are not and never have been a serious problem for the UK. The real problem is the number of people we are inviting to come here. However, its an issue which seems likely to become a real problem in the future as global warming gets worse. At least, unless it gets so much worse the UK itself becomes an undesireable destination as an island unable to feed itself suffering from rising sea levels. But in the near future, it seems likely the international position on refugees is not sustainable in giving rights to refugees. In that sense it is both a real issue, and a potential vote winner. The whole issue of immigration had a lot of traction during brexit, even though it was totally spurios. As we see now how the government is inviting in even more people than when we were members!
It seems likely Jenrick believes the government should use the time it has left to force the issue over abolishing refugee rights to live in the UK. Which requires leaving the Human rights charter, and whatever associated treaties are affected. He probably reckons in the current circumstances thats at least neutral in vote terms, and maybe a modest winner. But actually, the right course for the country, oddly enough.
Sunak has had warning after warning from the ant-immigrant block that he isnt doing anything effective. It would seem he prefers the matter remain unresolved and therefore available as an election issue. Whereas jenrick believes the government should act effectively while it has power. The exact date of the next election makes no difference to him, and for all tory MPs the remaining time in office is now either short (one year max) or very short, merely a few months.
Oh, and its quite insane the conservatives have deliberately created a backlog of processed immigration cases, who have to be housed at enormous expense because they are forbidden to work. He probably sees that too.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Dec 7, 2023 8:01:01 GMT
Rather pathetic summary....imo. I thought he looked like a rabbit in front of the headlights, exposed for what he was, a liar and a fraud, now defenestrated and suitably chastened. Totally incapable of understanding the evidence before him while presiding over a Govmt response that was characterised by chaos and infighting between his appointees. Their egos mattered more than the interests of the people they served. I think you are wrong about the egos. I think Johnson presided over a team of conflicting people because thats what he wanted to generate dispirate views. I agree he looked like a rabbit in headlights. But I think thats because he still does not believe in lockdown. And I believe he is absolutely right, that Sweden did better than the UK during the epidemic BECAUSE it did not use lockdown. But he continues to toe the party line in arguing lockdown was the right policy, even though he does not believe it was. Partygate was all about the government not believing in lockdown. The government pretty much followed the advice of SAGE and specifically the medical officers, exactly as he said. Even though SAGE was not tasked with choosing the best course for the nation, as it also warned. It was only asked how to combat covid. And even there it never provided government with the spread of dissenting advice which was being debated in its meetings, only the majority consensus. So we ended up with a policy decided on incomplete grounds with all the caveats edited out. The advice was wrong in a number of respects. If like me and it would seem many tory MPs, you believe lockdown was wrong, then that was the mistake. If you believe intervention was called for too late, then that was the mistake. Either way it failed. Add to that the delays in government actually making challenging decisions, then the advisory system failed to alert government in time to act. Although having said that, the traditional response to an epidemic was already in place, and while it wanted tweaking for covid and in light of government cuts to emergency supplies etc, it would have provided a non lockdown response on time and as needed. So the mistake was in SAGE recommending departing from the traditional approach. SAGE composed of medical experts believed science had advanced enough that an interventionist approach based on high tech (vaccines and testing, phone apps) would work better. It didnt.
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Post by crossbat11 on Dec 7, 2023 8:09:18 GMT
"He was my Prime Minister for three and a half years. Humiliation is probably what we should all feel, on reflection." What's with the " we" I didn't vote for Spaffer or his destructive xenophobic stupidity . Those who did should of course feel humiliated and if not shamed just embarrassed by their own gullibility. True, to some extent, but he was the only Prime Minister that I had. When you enter Downing Street you lead the country not just the governing party. Maybe that's where a lot of Tory PMs have gone wrong. They've failed to understand that very important difference. So, in the true sense of the word, while I didn't vote for Johnson, he was still my Prime Minister. He led the country of which I was a citizen for three and a half years. Alas.
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Post by athena on Dec 7, 2023 8:10:56 GMT
mercian "Surely they're trying to legislate a matter of opinion, not a fact?" Safety is a subjective concept, but in this case, it's been defined - everyone is using 'safe' as shorthand for 'asylum seekers processed in Rwanda won't be sent back to a third country where they may be tortured or killed'. That's objectively true or false, but not measurable. So for practical purposes someone or some body has to make a judgement about safety (per that definition), as a fact. Several types of evidence can be used to make that judgement, including observations of past outcomes (what has happened to people sent to Rwanda). What the Supreme Court did was consider the evidence put before it and arrive at an evidence-based judgement - not an opinion in the conventional sense. Whether the definition of 'safety' is sensible or not is a matter of opinion, but that's not the issue. You could just about argue that the definition is pseudo-objective, because it doesn't specify acceptable probabilities for (a) return or (b) torture or death if returned. I don't know the exact wording that's used in the relevant treaties, conventions and laws - I'm assuming that any non-zero probability is unacceptable. A lawyer would know whether that's correct or not and if not, what the implicit probabilities are (precedents, legal definitions of words and phrases), so I think you still land up in the same place: with an objective definition of 'safety' that Rwanda does or does not fulfil.
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Post by crossbat11 on Dec 7, 2023 8:12:43 GMT
Tories won't be happy with the Daily Mail front page either Stand up and fight. And when you've finished doing that, stand up and fight again. Because when the Mail fights, we fight. The whole country fights ...
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Dec 7, 2023 8:15:02 GMT
The Tories have brought this on themselves , they deserve it, it's just a tragedy that this decade long clown show has so diminished this country and its international reputation in the process of their own self destruction. yeah, but brexit and before it their anti eu stance bought them 14 years in power they would not otherwise have achieved. That is pretty smart. What do consequences matter?
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Post by pete on Dec 7, 2023 8:20:26 GMT
It's just so depressing to see a system of governance that is so poor at representing the best interests of the people who they are meant to represent. That Hillsborough report could have been read in a week and responded to in a month. The contaminated blood victims are dying on a weekly basis before compensation arrives, which is morally reprehensible. No one seems to be able to get a grip and make things happen. Not only that but it wasn't even done for more than twenty years after the event. Duckworth must have had some powerful friends. Having said that, if the late-arriving Liverpool fans had entered the stadium in an orderly manner the disaster wouldn't have happened at all. A myth. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35473732
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Dec 7, 2023 8:23:21 GMT
Tories won't be happy with the Daily Mail front page either Stand up and fight. And when you've finished doing that, stand up and fight again. Because when the Mail fights, we fight. The whole country fights ... The mail is wrong, con ARE fighting labour. They all agree refugees is a vote winning issue for them. The fight is an example of a tactic they have used many times over their recent block in power. They started using a double act with the libs to justify inaction. Then they had to create a fight internally. The impression they are seeking to give is they are both a party of being very tough on immigrants, and a party which upholds international treaties and rights. The two positions are mutually incompatible, but by having a fight with two side, they can espouse both. Just like brexit. They hold out hope to both sides they will eventually come down on that side.
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Post by pete on Dec 7, 2023 8:26:35 GMT
Agree with both your choices. Around Christmas I always try and watch them along with Gremlins and Die Hard. Cracking Christmas entertainment. Must add I do Like The Wizard of Oz at Christmas time. That and the Great Escape always take me back to my childhood (both being on every fecking Christmas). How does anyone have time to watch films at Christmas time? I'm either with family (actually talking with them) or carousing or at a Christmas meal and so on. I start watching films from around the 15th. Only do 4/5 anyway. Keeps the sanity going from what is a ridiculous over rated holiday time.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Dec 7, 2023 8:27:44 GMT
"He was my Prime Minister for three and a half years. Humiliation is probably what we should all feel, on reflection." What's with the " we" I didn't vote for Spaffer or his destructive xenophobic stupidity . Those who did should of course feel humiliated and if not shamed just embarrassed by their own gullibility. True, to some extent, but he was the only Prime Minister that I had. When you enter Downing Street you lead the country not just the governing party. Maybe that's where a lot of Tory PMs have gone wrong. They've failed to understand that very important difference. So, in the true sense of the word, while I didn't vote for Johnson, he was still my Prime Minister. He led the country of which I was a citizen for three and a half years. Alas. I've kind of considered the role vacant since July 2019. Sunak seems to me to be just as utterly inadequate to fill it as Johnson and as for Truss, well you may as well have given a squirrel the job. I was of course no fan of Theresa May but she seems to be the last one who had anything like the Prime Ministerial 'something'. We used to treat the role with reverence and seriousness, even questioning Brown's suitability for it due to the lack of his PR skills yet he was a billion times more up to the job than any of the recent crop in every which way. It's again brexit, that great destroyer of British seriousness, that has done this in giving us three PMs in a row none of whom would likely even have got senior cabinet roles had it not been for brexit.
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Post by pete on Dec 7, 2023 8:29:16 GMT
Stand up and fight. And when you've finished doing that, stand up and fight again. Because when the Mail fights, we fight. The whole country fights ... The mail is wrong, con ARE fighting labour. They all agree refugees is a vote winning issue for them. The fight is an example of a tactic they have used many times over their recent block in power. They started using a double act with the libs to justify inaction. Then they had to create a fight internally. The impression they are seeking to give is they are both a party of being very tough on immigrants, and a party which upholds international treaties and rights. The two positions are mutually incompatible, but by having a fight with two side, they can espouse both. Just like brexit. They hold out hope to both sides they will eventually come down on that side. You do come out with some strange conspiracy theories when it concerns the Tor...well actually nearly everything.
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Post by wb61 on Dec 7, 2023 8:32:28 GMT
She's not the only one, it's like arguing black is white, but at the same time white is black Wasn't it Humpty Dumpty who said that he believed two impossible things before breakfast? Perhaps a great fall is coming. FYI it was six impossible things and it was said by the Queen of Hearts “Alice laughed. 'There's no use trying,' she said. 'One can't believe impossible things.' I daresay you haven't had much practice,' said the Queen. 'When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.” Lewis Carroll (or Charles Dodgson if you prefer)
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Post by barbara on Dec 7, 2023 8:41:44 GMT
Agree with both your choices. Around Christmas I always try and watch them along with Gremlins and Die Hard. Cracking Christmas entertainment. Must add I do Like The Wizard of Oz at Christmas time. That and the Great Escape always take me back to my childhood (both being on every fecking Christmas). How does anyone have time to watch films at Christmas time? I'm either with family (actually talking with them) or carousing or at a Christmas meal and so on. I spend Christmas alone (with George my cat) by choice. I don't have children and while I'm always invited by my nieces and nephews I always decline. I LOVE Christmas on my own, chilling, eating and drinking, reading, doing the Guardian special Christmas crossword, having a walk and watching telly. It's a contrast to my usually busy socialising lifestyle. But I am still able empathise with those who want to spend to spend it busy with family or those who are forced but don't want to spend it alone. Other people's shoes mercian
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Post by athena on Dec 7, 2023 8:45:27 GMT
Humpty Dumpty is apposite for the govt's current legislative manoeuvres though: When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less.' 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you CAN make words mean so many different things.'
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 7, 2023 8:47:34 GMT
Well that's the kitchen table sorted, now for the rest of the house.
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 7, 2023 9:00:09 GMT
President Jo Biden giving an interview outside of legacy media to one of my favourite sources the Midas touch network. Unscripted and no teleprompter Only a few minutes long worth a watch. youtu.be/UP44FRtqqAo?si=pFB83K5FPMHF0SKT
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Post by crossbat11 on Dec 7, 2023 9:09:53 GMT
The mail is wrong, con ARE fighting labour. They all agree refugees is a vote winning issue for them. The fight is an example of a tactic they have used many times over their recent block in power. They started using a double act with the libs to justify inaction. Then they had to create a fight internally. The impression they are seeking to give is they are both a party of being very tough on immigrants, and a party which upholds international treaties and rights. The two positions are mutually incompatible, but by having a fight with two side, they can espouse both. Just like brexit. They hold out hope to both sides they will eventually come down on that side. You do come out with some strange conspiracy theories when it concerns the Tor...well actually nearly everything. I wonder if Danny is having his favourite giant lizard around for Christmas again. With David Icke carving the turkey and proposing a toast to the Lizard King.
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