steve
Member
Posts: 12,612
Member is Online
|
Post by steve on Nov 28, 2023 16:42:06 GMT
mercianElgin certainly wouldn't have been granted permission by the Greek government 10 years later when they defeated their Turkish occupiers. It's also unlikely that they would have used the Acropolis as a weapons store as the Turks did when fighting the Venecians over Athens a century earlier resulting in the destruction which made Elgin's theft easier.
|
|
|
|
Post by jimjam on Nov 28, 2023 16:44:25 GMT
''Its not common practice to rename stolen goods after the thief.''
The Crown Jewels maybe, well many of them no doubt, others being gifts.
|
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,612
Member is Online
|
Post by steve on Nov 28, 2023 16:45:41 GMT
"Well, like me they would like to play marbles again so they now want them returned"
Once you've lost your marbles they're gone for ever.
But the Greeks should get their historic sculptures back.
|
|
|
|
Post by crossbat11 on Nov 28, 2023 17:03:17 GMT
The strange case of the missing marbles. We should return them from whence they came, obviously, but why stop at historical artefacts?
How about some misappropriated territories? The Falklands, Gibraltar.......
|
|
|
|
Post by barbara on Nov 28, 2023 17:14:57 GMT
I don't buy the print copy of the Observer anymore, picking up the odd articles of interest that appear in it off the online Guardian website instead. Accordingly I've tended to miss Stewart Lee's satirical contributions. They are often both very funny and incisive. Here he is last Sunday skewering Farage and ITV for allowing him a challenge-free publicity ride on mainstream TV. Lee let's poor old Ant and Dec have it too. If you've got the Guardian (free) app you'll get all of Stewart Lee's pieces. They are excellent. |
|
|
|
Post by thylacine on Nov 28, 2023 17:15:59 GMT
The strange case of the missing marbles. We should return them from whence they came, obviously, but why stop at historical artefacts? How about some misappropriated territories? The Falklands, Gibraltar....... There may be more of a slight complication. I don't think people live in the Elgin/ Parthenon marbles do they ? Or in the Falklands case give us future access to huge natural resources in Antarctica ? |
|
|
|
Post by barbara on Nov 28, 2023 17:30:25 GMT
British theft of the Elgin Marbles is no more defensible than Goering's plundering of art galleries throughout Occupied Europe during World War 2. Oh look, the Nazis again. Elgin's removal of the friezes and statuary of the Parthenon was a personal not a government project and his motives were mixed, some noble (preserving them from on-going destruction), some less so (ego). It cost him a fortune and left him close to bankrupt. Also Elgin obtained permission from the Ottoman authorities then ruling Greece - which Greeks obviously don't regard as legitimate. I am in favour of returning the marbles to Greece, but the story of how they came to be here is much more complex than "British theft". The following account of what happened is American and so hopefully reasonably neutral: www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-the-much-debated-elgin-marbles-ended-up-in-england-180979311/I agree that the story is complex and that Elgin had reasonably honourable motives for taking them and had permission to do so. But time moves one and the fact remains that they are not ours and should be returned. Otherwise why does anyone make retrospective reparations for anything. |
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,356
|
Post by neilj on Nov 28, 2023 17:34:11 GMT
Love it
|
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,612
Member is Online
|
Post by steve on Nov 28, 2023 17:36:29 GMT
crossbat11 I'm not sure who you might return the Falklands to, given that the first expedition to land there was English, that there was no resident indigenous people, that the only people to have permanently settled the islands are overwhelmingly of British descent. Elephant seals? Good news on Gibraltar looks like their trade agreements with Spain are on the cusp of signing off unless the Sunakered regime fuck it up. Given that 95% of Gibraltarians who voted in the referendum voted remain the extension of the Gibraltan zone to include Campo de Gibraltar is great news, the area of La Linea has always suffered significant unemployment issues and this genuinely looks like significant progress and would increase the population in the zone by 900% and the area covered by no less than 7500%
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2023 17:37:03 GMT
The strange case of the missing marbles. We should return them from whence they came, obviously, but why stop at historical artefacts? How about some misappropriated territories? The Falklands, Gibraltar....... Scotland, Wales, the Northern bit of Oirelund, Cornwall, Barnard Castle etc etc.. |
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,566
|
Post by pjw1961 on Nov 28, 2023 17:47:41 GMT
The strange case of the missing marbles. We should return them from whence they came, obviously, but why stop at historical artefacts? How about some misappropriated territories? The Falklands, Gibraltar....... Gibraltar is the result of an international treaty and lightly ripping up treaties is a rabbit hole one should be careful of heading down, especially against the wishes of the inhabitants. The history of the Falklands however, is much, much more messy. |
|
|
|
Post by alec on Nov 28, 2023 17:52:15 GMT
@fecklessmiser - "...Barnard Castle..."
No!
We're not going to give Barney back to Weardale. Never!
|
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,612
Member is Online
|
Post by steve on Nov 28, 2023 17:53:51 GMT
pjw1961Gibraltar is the result of an international treaty and lightly ripping up treaties is a rabbit hole one should be careful of heading down, especially against the wishes of the inhabitants. Indeed but of course our Tory regime totally disregarded the Gibraltarians overwhelming , )really overwhelming, less than a hundred people voted to leave the European union),wishes and made them faff about for the last 7 years trying to sort it out. The eventual agreement does look very promising a far superior arrangement to that in Brexitania.
|
|
|
|
Post by lens on Nov 28, 2023 18:10:47 GMT
crossbat11 I'm not sure who you might return the Falklands to, given that the first expedition to land there was English, that there was no resident indigenous people, that the only people to have permanently settled the islands are overwhelmingly of British descent. Elephant seals? And don't forget that the last referendum was overwhelmingly in favour of rule from the UK - not Argentina. (I seem to remember that the only dissenting voices weren't even in favour of Argentinian rule? Rather going to Chile!) I also believe that the UK has agreed to the question going to the UN, to be settled according to their established procedure where sovereignty is in dispute. But Argentina have blocked it. They know full well that in International Law their claim is incredibly weak. It's also worth noting that Argentina as a country didn't properly exist itself until 1861! At which time the Falklands had been a British Colony since 1840. (Before that there had been short lived occupations of various nationalities, but British involvement certainly goes way further back.) |
|
|
|
Post by crossbat11 on Nov 28, 2023 18:32:12 GMT
The strange case of the missing marbles. We should return them from whence they came, obviously, but why stop at historical artefacts? How about some misappropriated territories? The Falklands, Gibraltar....... Gibraltar is the result of an international treaty and lightly ripping up treaties is a rabbit hole one should be careful of heading down, especially against the wishes of the inhabitants. The history of the Falklands however, is much, much more messy. My last real interest in Falklands affairs was when I was following the fate of the stowaway island penguin who, circa late 1982, set sail on a one-penguin mission to assassinate Margaret Thatcher. I followed the fortunes of the hardy flightless feathered fellow, chronicled so ably by Steve Bell, not only on his dangerous voyage, avoiding detection on the vessel and navigating the rough Atlantic seas, but also when he landed in the UK and sought opportunities to carry out his dastardly and dangerous mission. I wished him well, obviously, but then lost track of him. I know he was arrested once for acting suspiciously near the Cenotaph, but he escaped. It transpired he had some native accomplices, which intrigued me. I wondered what became of him. He obviously failed in his mission but is he still alive? Has he become the longest ever serving member of an illegal immigrant detention centre? Or are they still processing his asylum application and he remains a forced resident in a two star hotel in Romford? The floating barge might have suited him better, I think. Or, is he destined to be on the first plane to Rwanda? If he is, I fear for his prospects in that ice-free region of East Africa. The Rwandan authorities my send him back to the Falklands, though. Which is how I would like the story to end, really. He was a decent little fellow who always meant well. |
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,612
Member is Online
|
Post by steve on Nov 28, 2023 18:38:54 GMT
|
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,612
Member is Online
|
Post by steve on Nov 28, 2023 18:46:38 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by richardstamper on Nov 28, 2023 18:58:44 GMT
That is rather different from saying that your political affiliations are determined by some pre-existing brain structure or behaviours - the brain scan is surely just detecting physical signatures of how you think. It may be that political affiliations and outlook were taught and this affected how the brain formed. But having formed, it kinda suggests these people are no longer susceptible to argument. Maybe it illustrates the importance of education in building in a party majority for decades to come. Not sure what implications forcing people to learn mathematics for longer would have. Only if you assume the brain gets formed and that's it. What actually happens is that using your brain changes its structure and functioning. |
|
|
|
Post by thylacine on Nov 28, 2023 19:10:52 GMT
It may be that political affiliations and outlook were taught and this affected how the brain formed. But having formed, it kinda suggests these people are no longer susceptible to argument. Maybe it illustrates the importance of education in building in a party majority for decades to come. Not sure what implications forcing people to learn mathematics for longer would have. Only if you assume the brain gets formed and that's it. What actually happens is that using your brain changes its structure and functioning. I think you'll find that some prefer to keep theirs in mint BNIB condition.I cast no aspersions on their political affiliation. |
|
|
|
Post by leftieliberal on Nov 28, 2023 22:42:21 GMT
British theft of the Elgin Marbles is no more defensible than Goering's plundering of art galleries throughout Occupied Europe during World War 2. Oh look, the Nazis again. Elgin's removal of the friezes and statuary of the Parthenon was a personal not a government project and his motives were mixed, some noble (preserving them from on-going destruction), some less so (ego). It cost him a fortune and left him close to bankrupt. Also Elgin obtained permission from the Ottoman authorities then ruling Greece - which Greeks obviously don't regard as legitimate. I am in favour of returning the marbles to Greece, but the story of how they came to be here is much more complex than "British theft". The following account of what happened is American and so hopefully reasonably neutral: www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-the-much-debated-elgin-marbles-ended-up-in-england-180979311/There is more to the story of the Parthenon than that. It was used by the Turks as a gunpowder store and was blown up in 1687 during the Morean War between Venice and the Ottomans On 26 September 1687 Morosini fired, one round scoring a direct hit on the powder magazine inside the Parthenon. The ensuing explosion caused the cella to collapse, blowing out the central part of the walls and bringing down much of Phidias’ frieze. Many of the columns also toppled, causing the architraves, triglyphs and metopes to come tumbling down. |
|
|
|
Post by leftieliberal on Nov 28, 2023 23:04:02 GMT
The strange case of the missing marbles. We should return them from whence they came, obviously, but why stop at historical artefacts? How about some misappropriated territories? The Falklands, Gibraltar....... Gibraltar is the result of an international treaty and lightly ripping up treaties is a rabbit hole one should be careful of heading down, especially against the wishes of the inhabitants. The history of the Falklands however, is much, much more messy. Argentina's claim to the Falklands is based on them being the successor state to the Spanish colonists in that part of South America. It was the Pope at the time when Spain and Portugal were the two main European seafaring nations who decided how South America should be divided between them, which is why Brazil became Portuguese and the rest of South America Spanish. Why a religious leader should have the authority to make such a decision is questionable in itself, but the Vatican was not above using forged documents (e.g. The Donation of Constantine) to assert their authority over the Kings and Emperors of the various European states. |
|
|
|
Post by bardin1 on Nov 29, 2023 0:47:13 GMT
The strange case of the missing marbles. We should return them from whence they came, obviously, but why stop at historical artefacts? How about some misappropriated territories? The Falklands, Gibraltar....... ....Scotland? (worth a try) |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2023 0:58:48 GMT
Blimey, pretty quiet on here tonight. Internet broken? Mass boycott? Mass apathy attack? Or just not much happening on the polling or political front to stimulate the creative juices?
Politically, Jenrick seems to have gone a bit rogue with his own immigration thoughts and Sunak seems once again to have backed the wrong horse in the Elgin Marbles debate. He seems less credible and authoritative by the day and I wouldn't be surprised if his party are starting to lose patience. The Tories' raison d'être is being in power, and he is looking less and less like the man to continue to carry the flame.
Do they just meekly await Judgement Day or make a final bombshell throw of the dice and replace him with someone they think might turn things around? Lord alone knows who, so I suspect they're stuck with him.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2023 2:07:57 GMT
Grant Shapps is the boy for me...
|
|
|
|
Post by joeboy on Nov 29, 2023 3:20:57 GMT
The strange case of the missing marbles. We should return them from whence they came, obviously, but why stop at historical artefacts? How about some misappropriated territories? The Falklands, Gibraltar....... Scotland, Wales, the Northern bit of Oirelund, t thr tCornwall, Barnard Castle etc etc.. I know you're trying to be funny but 'the Northern bit of Oirelund', that's quite offensive in this or any other context. |
|
|
|
Post by moby on Nov 29, 2023 5:17:18 GMT
|
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,612
Member is Online
|
Post by steve on Nov 29, 2023 6:20:58 GMT
 Keep warm everyone. |
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,612
Member is Online
|
Post by steve on Nov 29, 2023 7:02:31 GMT
Anti Traitor sentiment in the GOP appears to be coalescing around Nikki Haley with endorsement from the ultra right wing billionaire Koch brothers.
So I thought a quick look at Haley might be in order.I
The positive
She's not insane.
Haley isn't a demented coup organiser who wants to be president for life.
She didn't participate in the coup and didn't endorse the big lie over the election(she doesn't mention the truth of course another profile in courage)
She acknowledges man made climate change, she just doesn't want to do anything about it.
She supports Ukraine in the existential struggle against war criminal Putin.
Haley was born Nimarata Nikki Randhawa she's the daughter of wealthy Indian Sikh parents and is the first Indian American to hold high office in the US government , she was U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations.
Other than that it's the standard tick box of far right lunacy.
Anti abortion
Low taxes for the wealthiest
Cuts in medicare and Medicaid
Reduced Gun control
Term limits for non partisan civil servants.
Is she as bad as the traitor
No, but that's the lowest of low bars.
Would she beat Biden
Possibly.
Would the white nationalist Maga base accept a female Indian as their flag bearer.
Derrr!
Will she have the opportunity
Not unless the traitors already convicted and not necessarily even then.
|
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,315
|
Post by Danny on Nov 29, 2023 7:25:21 GMT
News this morning, a report conducting GP appointments by telephone causes serious disease to be missed which would be spotted in a face to face interview. Apparently 25% of current appointments are by telephone.
Presumably relevant to failing NHS performance. The bottom line is there is a shortage of GPS to meet the workload, and phone interviews are quicker, just not as effective.
The NHS has always relied upon attracting in immigrants to fill NHS vacancies, but recent falls in medical pay have threatened this. Brexit too of course, which made it less attractive for europeans to come here, aside from wage issues.
Bit of a theme, because they also featured someone who had a mystery pain which his GP refused to do anything about. Apparently his neighbour also a doctor said he needed to see his GP, and eventually he went to a private one. Who immediately sent him for screening and cancer treatment. Then they reported 1/5 of cancers are being diagnosed when people turn up at A&E.
|
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,315
|
Post by Danny on Nov 29, 2023 7:40:34 GMT
Other news this morning, Mrs Wilco, ie member of the founding family still running the company at the time it crashed, gets blamed by MPs for the harm she (allegedly) caused to ordinary workers. Which is awfully rich considering the harm being done to workers by government policy, and arguably to all of us by the collapse of government services.
But aside from that, you might think if her family created the company, then they are still net contrbutors to the greater good of society for so long as it existed. And blaming someone when presumably the greatest loss is theirs anyway seems somewhat unfair. Unless MPs are really most worried about the poor banks left out of pocket?
Incidentally, one of the reasons given why the company failed was covid lockdown. I can see why MPs would prefer blame fall on incompetent management.
|
|
