What should the board look like

[steamdrivenandy]

Jan 18, 2022 17:51:24 GMT Danny said:

Jan 18, 2022 8:31:38 GMT John Chanin said:

Over the years there have been many posts on gardening, sport, fridges, humpur, films, and I dont know what else which nothing whatever to do with current political issues or polling.  They seem to me to be intended to hide the actual debate and are counter productive to a political or polling debate. Their main purpose seems to be to scroll on a few pages so as to hide significant postings. Fillibustering.

Goodness, I didn't realise that conspiracy theories extended to the posting habits of UKPR2 members. And I thought it was just a forum.

[robert]

Jan 18, 2022 15:19:44 GMT steamdrivenandy said:

We jest about it but I doubt that there's anyone that posts just to increase their post count, nobody on here, in my estimation, is that shallow. It's a set of new features, compared to UKPR1 and as such is treated as a novelty.

You are clearly not reading the current thread then. There are many banal posts being made just to achieve a higher count and freely admitted .

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

On other boards I have known, the absence of the star system didn’t stop people posting in order just to achieve a higher post count. Or posting to just talk about having a higher post count. (You can even have posts talking about posts talking about having a higher post count, like this one). 

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Jan 18, 2022 17:51:24 GMT Danny said:

Jan 18, 2022 8:31:38 GMT John Chanin said:

There would be a good case for restricting posters to perhaps 3 posts a day. This would not only kill off post count comments, but would remove most of the “banter”, which may be enjoyed by the half dozen people who engage in it, but pisses off everyone else, and was part of the reason for the slow demise of the old site. If the people concerned were restricted to posting matters of political or polling interest the site would be much more readable and valuable. I really don’t want to read several pages of trash every morning in the hope there’s something valuable hidden somewhere.

Over the years there have been many posts on gardening, sport, fridges, humpur, films, and I dont know what else which nothing whatever to do with current political issues or polling.

au contraire, Danny. Fridges do pertain to politics and feature in the politics section of the Graun (e.g. Boris uses them to hide from questioning)

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/11/boris-johnson-hides-in-fridge-to-avoid-piers-morgan-interview

And the new wine fridge was pretty instrumental to party gate at Downing Street (from the Times… “In fact, Johnson’s aides went one better, spending £142 on a wine fridge with a capacity of 34 bottles — quickly dubbed “a fridge too far”.”)

And…

“A fridge too far: Downing Street 'held wine-time Fridays EVERY week' throughout the pandemic: Now staff are accused of taking a suitcase to Tesco Metro to fill up with booze and having a drinks fridge delivered in December 2020”

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10404315/Downing-Street-held-wine-time-Fridays-week-pandemic-Partygate-scandal-deepens.html


and fridges also pertain to polling. Even Yougov do polling on fridges.

yougov.co.uk/topics/lifestyle/articles-reports/2015/06/13/refrigeration-debate

[Deleted]

Jan 19, 2022 14:12:05 GMT robert said:

Jan 18, 2022 15:19:44 GMT steamdrivenandy said:

We jest about it but I doubt that there's anyone that posts just to increase their post count, nobody on here, in my estimation, is that shallow. It's a set of new features, compared to UKPR1 and as such is treated as a novelty.

You are clearly not reading the current thread then. There are many banal posts being made just to achieve a higher count and freely admitted.

As SDA unsuccessfully tried to explain to you, that is what some of refer to as “a joke”. Doesn’t mean everybody - or even anybody - has to find it amusing, but that is all it is.

Do you seriously believe that anybody gives a toss about how many posts we’ve achieved or whether we achieve the mythical ‘god’ status?

Try to lighten up a bit.

[Deleted]

Jan 18, 2022 21:35:42 GMT steamdrivenandy said:

Jan 18, 2022 17:51:24 GMT Danny said:

Over the years there have been many posts on gardening, sport, fridges, humpur, films, and I dont know what else which nothing whatever to do with current political issues or polling.  They seem to me to be intended to hide the actual debate and are counter productive to a political or polling debate. Their main purpose seems to be to scroll on a few pages so as to hide significant postings. Fillibustering.

Goodness, I didn't realise that conspiracy theories extended to the posting habits of UKPR2 members. And I thought it was just a forum.

Well, that has certainly been my intention Andy. Only sorry that I’ve been rumbled.

Robert - the above was a small joke as well.  You may now titter. (Or not titter - as you please.)

[Deleted]

By the way, why has everybody absconded from the polling thread? I thought you’d all gone back to your constituencies for a moment.

(14 to go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

[catfuzz]

Jan 19, 2022 15:43:34 GMT @crofty said:

By the way, why has everybody absconded from the polling thread? I thought you’d all gone back to your constituencies for a moment.

(14 to go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

The trouble with deification is that one simply does not have time to consult with us mere mortals (as you are on the cusp of discovering yourself!)

[Deleted]

Jan 19, 2022 16:13:40 GMT catfuzz said:

Jan 19, 2022 15:43:34 GMT @crofty said:

By the way, why has everybody absconded from the polling thread? I thought you’d all gone back to your constituencies for a moment.

(14 to go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

The trouble with deification is that one simply does not have time to consult with us mere mortals (as you are on the cusp of discovering yourself!)

That won’t happen to me catfuzz.Like a genial lord of the manor I am happen to talk down to anybody, anytime.

(Robert ....... another “joke”.)

Re jokes - my very, very favourite is the Dutch pilot from WWII Battle of Britain being interviewed by posh, 1950s BBC radio interviewer about Messerschmitts and Fokker Wolfes.

Only works in the prolonged telling of it but the end “Yah, that is so - but these fukkers were Messerschmitts” always makes me laugh even when I am telling it. My brother, Jon, who was an actor for 50 years, introduced me to it and used to tell it brilliantly.



 

[Mark]

The overwhelming consensus is that the star system should be removed.

It has now gone.

For status, I've almost got rid of it entirely, but, not quite.

Those with less than 50 posts are classed as "New Member". Everyone else is simply "Member".

I have kept this one distinction, mainly for admin purposes.

[Danny]

that makes sense. We should all be nice to new members.

[Mark]

I have renamed the thread in 'Issue Specific', originally titled "At it again" to "Ukraine Crisis".

Posts, whether about the UK government's reaction/actions or the wider crisis are fine by me and I hope the OP is happy with that.

[mercian]

@mark
Can I suggest that threads in the issue-specific section be deleted if nothing has been added for a certain period of time (e.g. a month). This would prevent it getting too cluttered.

[leftieliberal]

Feb 2, 2022 19:08:33 GMT mercian said:

@mark
Can I suggest that threads in the issue-specific section be deleted if nothing has been added for a certain period of time (e.g. a month). This would prevent it getting too cluttered.

We could have a new thread on which we voted for which topics we want to keep in the "issue specific" category.

[Mark]

While I have always said that Issue specific should be kept as lean as possible and I have - and will - deleted Issue Specific threads when they contravene the rules, or when they run directly counter to the cohesion of the forum, I am loathe to delete threads where interest has simply petered out.

Another aspect to this is that an issue that was once very much live that has very little relevence to current politics/polling, may, in the future, become a live issue once more.

With that in mind, I propose an 'Archive' section where said threads could be moved to rather than being lost - and if need be, can be moved back if a subject becomes topical again.

Any thoughts on this are welcome.

[Danny]

So someone's plan is to limit debat on corona virus in the current political thread and instad place it in other business. Then delete that thread after a month, so no record remains of any embarassing debate over corna virus? A johnsonian wet dream?

Normally on forums threads simply drop down a dated list of topics if no one posts to them, so they essentially turn into an archive automatically. Anyone can then resume them if they have something to say.

[Mark]

Danny, nobody is trying to limit debate on anything. That is certainly not going to happen while I'm here.

The proposal for a thread to be moved to an archive section would be for theads that nobody has posted in for a certain time period (a month has been suggested).

Covid is very much a live and current issue and I really cannot see the covid thread in Issue Specific lying dormant for any period of time.

[Deleted]

Feb 3, 2022 12:26:24 GMT Mark said:

While I have always said that Issue specific should be kept as lean as possible and I have - and will - deleted Issue Specific threads when they contravene the rules, or when they run directly counter to the cohesion of the forum, I am loathe to delete threads where interest has simply petered out.

Another aspect to this is that an issue that was once very much live that has very little relevence to current politics/polling, may, in the future, become a live issue once more.

With that in mind, I propose an 'Archive' section where said threads could be moved to rather than being lost - and if need be, can be moved back if a subject becomes topical again.

Any thoughts on this are welcome.

Sounds like a plan to me! 'Dormant' topics will naturally slide to the bottom of the list and 'live' topics stay near the top but a more formal 'archive' system sounds like a good idea. 

I note you've also previously renamed and merged issue specific threads. With that in mind then birdseye started a new thread which IMO could be expanded out to cover 'Devolved govt politics' (or similar). There is certainly a lot of interesting stuff happening in Wales (eg trial of extended school hours) as well as NI and Scotland. As you've said before then an 'issue Specific' thread status in no way diminishes its status BUT it avoids clogging up the main thread and folks having to flick back to see where the discussion of a 'Specific Issue' had got to.

Could do a thread for each devolved nation? Also French, US elections etc coming up that some will have interest in discussing, but many won't. Might be worth considering those in advance and IMO it is better if you/neutral start a new thread as many posters (incl. my good self!) have 'baggage' that might deter others from engaging in an Issue Specific thread?

[Deleted]

Mark Might I suggest an 'Issue Specific' thread for 'Electoral Reform'?

The same old discussion crops up every now and then but IMO is just going over and over the same stuff. It doesn't appear to be an 'Important Issue' for CON or LAB (or the public) but that by no means belittles the discussion for those that are interested in Electoral Reform.

Rather than having the folks need to repeat the same stuff every time it comes back up then an 'Issue Specific' thread would keep that info in one, easy to 'remind oneselves' place and those who were interested in it could discuss away. 

Of course, whether anyone would use an 'Electoral Reform' Issue Specific thread, rather than continue to clog up the main thread is TBC but IMO it would have more chance of success if you/impartial/interested person set it up and maybe started it off with some polling or a good summary of options?

[Mark]

Yes, good idea, TW. It's not something that I have a great deal of knowledge on, so, even as admin, I'm not sure that I'd be the right person to start it.

Feel free to start it yourself if you wish. I know you're a little reluctant to start issue specific threads due to, in your own words, baggage, but, on this issue, I don't think this would be - or be seen to be - the case.

[neilj]

Don't really have an issue with electoral reform being discussed on the main thread. It does not come up very often and I find it interesting, as I suspect a lot on here do looking at the number of contributions on it. People have their say and it then dies down again. Shuttling it off into a side room where many posters don't go will not stop people occasionally discussing it on the main thread. If discussion of it it became more frequent and clogged up the main board for weeks at a time I could understand wanting to stop it, but it's not a problem

[Deleted]

Feb 12, 2022 18:17:33 GMT Mark said:

Yes, good idea, TW. It's not something that I have a great deal of knowledge on, so, even as admin, I'm not sure that I'd be the right person to start it.

Feel free to start it yourself if you wish. I know you're a little reluctant to start issue specific threads due to, in your own words, baggage, but, on this issue, I don't think this would be - or be seen to be - the case.

Electoral Reform doesn't seem to be something CON or LAB will be pushing anytime soon (LAB sound like they are kicking the can and CON, well, they're not going to do it). If LAB need to rely on LDEM to form a govt after GE'24 then maybe it becomes relevant so if folks want to discuss it then up to them of course. HoL reform seems like the obvious place to start but if LDEM dig their heels in next time then maybe HoC moves to something more PR? However that is minimum 2yrs+ away and far more important and 'current' issues IMO. 

So, since it's a/ not something I'm that interested in, b/ seems to have gone quiet again on the main thread then I won't be starting it up as an Issue Specific thread, for now at least.

IMO the Issue Specific threads are working well and most of the discussion is constructive and non-partisan (although they'll obviously be different views on approach to tackling problems). It's easy to flip back and revisit past comments or quickly catch up on a discussion on a specific thread as the thread only covers one specific topic. Those interested in those discussions can use them or not and I'm quite glad there are many folks with the 'not' view 

Be nice to see a few more folks post constructive input and get involved with discussions on the Specific Issues but I'm certainly not going to encourage everyone to start using them!

I'm tempted to suggest we start up an Issue Specific on 'polling' as that might only appeal to a few folks who actually want to discuss that. 

[Deleted]

Mark Any chance of a new main thread? Maybe Monday after next R&W and/or when next YG comes out? Maybe with a reminder about the 'General Rules' WRT to flaming[1] and that Specific Issue threads exist (and if someone wants to start one up for 'cars' then they can do so of course).

[1] Or is it now a 'free for all' in trying to drag UKPR2 into a cesspit?

[Mark]

A few issues...firstly, I'll start a new polling thread after the weekend - the situation in Ukraine has taken over everything - rightly - it could be the biggest crisis in our lifetimes - it certaibly is for those that live / lived there, both those that stay and fight and thoe that look to make a new life elsewhere.

Closer to home, I see that Laszlo has, sadly, left us.

I have to say that I hope that he reconsiders. While he left no doubt about his political leanings, his posts were both intelligent and informative.

I like to think that he commanded respect from those that don't share his allegionships or point of view.

Laszlo - if you are reading this, I hope you come back - and you will be missed if you don't...

[Mark]

A bit of tidying up...

Firstly, Wordle.

I have seen a few posts asking me to, effectively ban it from here. While I am not inclined to do that, I will ask that if there are people that want to engage in this, they set up a new thread.

I've been fine with posts about, say, the grand prix in the past that are event led and will cease on their own after a short while as I have been with short conversations on cover versions (which I partook in myself). We talk to each other...and that is good.

Something like Wordle, however, is both popular and ongoing and is likely to have multiple posts on every page. I would kindly ask that these not be posted on the main polling thread, but, again, if someone wants to make a Wordle thread, I won't delete it.

Which brings me on to...

It keeps coming back, the idea of a general (non-political) "chit-chat" thread, where those that want to can chat about their hobbies, their lives, themselvs, away from politics. A sort of "UKPR2 social" if you like.

I've got half a mind to set up that part of the board (and if wanted, a Wordle thread can come under that umbrella).

That is not to say that things like the Grand Prix would be forbidden in the main polling thread completely.

Please let me know your thoughts on this.

The next thing is Twitter links.

There is currently no ruling on the posting of such links and I think that any attempt on making such a rule would be pointless and stupid.

I would, however, make the following suggestions.

Firstly, I will remind you that there is still an issue of direct twitter links simply not showing up for soe members (along with a reminder that for some that have this problem, if you quote the post in question, a text link does then show up).

I took this issue to Proboards but, failed to get an adequate response.

I would suggest that if it is something such as polling, copying and pasting would be preferable.

On general news stories, there have been Twitter links that are, essentially links to newspaper stories. I will suggest that if a link is needed in these cases, a link to the direct source is preferable.

These are suggestions rather than rules....again, thoughts appreciated.

More to follow, but, don't want to call fr feedback on too many things at once.

[steamdrivenandy]

The Twitter links only start to annoy me when they keep repeating ad nauseum in replies.

I'm a lazy squab and confine myself to the main thread because I can't be rased to tromp through masses of specialist topics.

One thing that is a feature on the forum which I moderate is that it has an 'unread content' page which contains the latest post on all the threads that you've not read. I can scan down that and just enter the threads that seem to interest me. Also my bookmark is set for that page and I don't have to click three times to get to the current discussion page as we do with UKPR2.

Incidentally, one of the prime mod responsibilities on that fairly large forum is to reduce the number of posts on the 'general' section by recategorizing them to more appropriate sections. This to avoid cluttering the 'general' section and give look up facilities the best chance of finding all relevant material. Maybe not so relevant in a forum like UKPR2. As an example people habitually post to 'Caravan Chat' whatever the subject. If it's, say, a query about a particular model of Bailey caravan then that gets shifted to the 'Bailey' section. If it's someone seeking a nice caravan site in Tuscany then that gets put in the 'Holidays Abroad' area. Someone offering an awning for sale goes in the 'Classified Ads' area. Anyone commenting on synths gets three warning points, sorry Carfrew.

[barbara]

I only look at the main thread and that takes up enough time so I would plead that we don't have another 30 or so threads to read. I'm happy with the board as it is. It suits me, dross and all.

[catfuzz]

@mark - wholeheartedly support a general discussion thread. I find that having to scroll past various tweets and long quotes with only a wry dig at someone on the forum can be put elsewhere.

In effect, it could become like the main polling thread, only it has the capacity to go off tangent, leaving the polling thread to be about polling and political discussion.

[guymonde]

Mar 17, 2022 13:11:12 GMT steamdrivenandy said:

The Twitter links only start to annoy me when they keep repeating ad nauseum in replies.

I'm a lazy squab and confine myself to the main thread because I can't be rased to tromp through masses of specialist topics.

One thing that is a feature on the forum which I moderate is that it has an 'unread content' page which contains the latest post on all the threads that you've not read

I'm much the same, and I like the 'unread content' idea if that's doable. It would actually support the possibility of different threads for social etc and indeed for some serious topics. I do like the mix between deadly serious political matters, polling, other topics and general silliness, and would miss it if elements of  these were sidelined without such a signpost.
The repetition of large swathes of text is mildly irritating but it's not so burdensome to page down.
I applaud the general tone of this site, which has mainly avoided the tedious battles of UKPR1, though I'm worried that a LOC/ROC division is deepening: it would be nice if we could all be a little more respectful.
Mark - I think your moderating is fine - guidance in the main and not too many hard and fast restrictions and the site is, I find, worryingly addictive.
And yes, I miss some of the stalwarts who have either not transferred or departed. I don't think there's much wrong with the board and to be fair, many people have had sabbaticals over the years and some have left in disgust then returned, like any good pub.
Thanks to Mark, and to my fellow posters - I am informed and entertained.

[Deleted]

Mar 17, 2022 12:27:29 GMT Mark said:

1. It keeps coming back, the idea of a general (non-political) "chit-chat" thread, where those that want to can chat about their hobbies, their lives, themselvs, away from politics. A sort of "UKPR2 social" if you like.

2. The next thing is Twitter links.

1. Given a lot of folks seem to like the 'attention' of the main thread then I doubt it would stop 'chit-chat' being posted on the main thread. Especially given you don't seem to be enforcing any of the 'general rules'

2. I restrict it to polling (usually when it has a very handy infographic such as a tracker with historical polling) and occasionally specific data (eg ONS). The issue with not seeing it is a browser issue and if that is only a tiny % of folks then do we all really need to type the info out in addition to posting a link that will often have additional useful info (eg an infographic such as a tracker with historic polling)? I usually state YG, R&W etc before posting a tweet with infographic info so folks can very easily find that info themselves if they can't see the tweet info. I usually give a URL link when one is available (either for polling or other info).

Again, the lack of enforcement of any of the 'general rules' is perhaps encouraging some folks to post stuff that is purely 'for politics' (ie their partisan views, 'flaming', 'fake gotchas' or petty personal vendettas from UKPR), rather than 'about politics' (ie something that might have polling relevance on the main thread or be something of niche interest for an Issue Specific thread).

If you don't enforce the rules then I expect more folks like LASZLO will leave and few new posters will post/engage in discussion and we'll be on a 1way trip to 'cesspit' (which I again admit I played a significant role in on UKPR1 and once on UKPR2, for which I got a 'yellow card'). I'm sometimes tempted to see if my 'yellow card' has expired and I can also get away with posting whatever ad hominem, partisan stuff I can drag up from the gutter as you don't appear to be bothering to moderate the forum at all (at least I see no evidence to suggest you are).