What should the board look like

[c-a-r-f-r-e-w]

Dec 31, 2021 14:49:35 GMT Mark said:

Which brings me to...

There have been two more lengthy discussions recently, firstly on independence/international law, secondly on social conservatism.

I think that both these issues could benefit from their own threads in 'issue spacific'.

Please note, that should *NOT* be seen as a demotion of these issues, they are important issues, just not issues that affect current polling.

Both have the potential to be, for instance, if a referendum on Scottish independence is called, or, come election time (or indeed any other time), one or more of the parties brings social issues to the front of the campaign.

Again, I'd like to know what others think.

yes, at the moment it seems that only science/economics/sport are put in separate threads.* (Thus potentially biasing the main thread towards heading off into a twilight of another kinda Graun-lite SJW/Identity politics/campaigning Twitter feed).

That said, I do think separate threads have some virtues. For pursuing a particular aspect in more depth, and if you want to catch up it’s handy to have things in one place rather than scattered in between lots of posts about other things. (It has also allowed the likes of Trev to be able to post without as much hassle). 


* (with the exception of Edge’s rather handy prediction thread)

[lululemonmustdobetter]

Technical support request: has anyone worked out how to see certain links etc on Microsoft edge? I'm having to switch engines every time someone post something from Twitter etc. (which is a pain as on google I get bombarded with adverts for Boden which are really distracting).

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2022 23:21:16 GMT c-a-r-f-r-e-w said:

Jan 14, 2022 23:06:18 GMT eor said:

Thanks for that pete    

I hadn't thought about doing a specific thread yet cos I don't think there's enough to keep it going, but later in the year I can well imagine both interested and non-interested posters might prefer polling discussions on the mid-terms to be hived off somewhere with maybe the odd flag put in the main thread if something really striking happens - happy to go with what people prefer. 

You could have an ongoing single thread for any international elections, including the French one coming up, and can switch between elections as required within the thread? It can include international polling too, like Virgilio used to do?

The Issue Specific threads were democratically voted on and viewed as a good idea but they don't seem to be working, at least not how I'd hoped and I'm upset to see the misogyny being tolerated via one of the new threads and it's creator.

However, on 'Non UK elections' then two options.

1/ Those who want to keep it on the main thread (and nothing is being done to stop folks using main thread for anything/everything even when an Issue Specific thread has been set-up) can use the 'tag' feature to discuss it within a limited group (with others able to scroll past). Anyone can then 'chip in' or read the posts if they want (and ignore them if they are not interested). 

2/ A separate thread as per intention of the democratic vote and I'd agree it would probably be better to have all 'Non UK elections' in one thread although separate threads for each election would have limited shelf life and could be 'locked' once over (and then drop down on the list)


 

[Mark]

Jan 11, 2022 9:11:52 GMT lululemonmustdobetter said:

Technical support request: has anyone worked out how to see certain links etc on Microsoft edge? I'm having to switch engines every time someone post something from Twitter etc. (which is a pain as on google I get bombarded with adverts for Boden which are really distracting).

Firstly, I cannot see Twitter links eithor.

The workaround, for me, is to click 'quote' which then brings up a text URL which I can then copy and paste into the URL bar (ctrl L - for 'link' to highlight the URL bar, then paste).

I shall raise this with Proboards as I'm aware that a fair few have this problem.

As far as general browsing goes, I highly reccommend using Firefox with ad-blocker extension Ublock Origin.

Firefox here :

www.mozilla.org/en-GB/firefox/new/

Ublock here :

addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/ublock-origin/

----------------------
As to general admin, I will be making an announcement on Monday (I'll be watching the snooker final tomorrow, but, will be on here inbetween) and a possible amendment to site rules and possibly some tidying up.

Some things, I'm still thinking about, some, as I do like to admin with input from those who post here I will most likely throw upen for members to have a say.

Please watch this space.

[lululemonmustdobetter]

@mark

Thanks for the tip much appreciated.

[Deleted]

Jan 17, 2022 21:04:18 GMT leftieliberal said:

Jan 17, 2022 20:26:56 GMT mercian said:

Or it could be that there is a competition between alec and @tw over who gets to God first.  So far Alec has his nose in front.

If anyone is that desperate to get to 'God' status then the quickest and least annoying way to do so is to 'post and delete' over and over to up your count.

Deleted posts seem to stay on your posts score so folks can 'post and delete' if they are that interested in their own status (which seems to be more of a LOC thing given who the 'Gods' are    and wow that is a lot of posts I've been able to ignore using the 'hide' feature which is much better than the 'auto-skip' that was tricky to stick to on UKPR)

PS The 'Last Online' field in members list doesn't seem to update for everyone. If anyone knows how to get your time stamp 'frozen' on that one then let me know as I can see the advantage in folks not knowing you're online (although in my case then UKPR2 is often open in the background for when I get bored with Real World stuff or am waiting some call to start/on a dull call or whatever) 

[Mark]

The intended tidying up for today will now be done tomorrow due to more urgent matters.

I got a little behind this weekend due, firstly to an internet outage, then the snooker final and am now catching up, so apologies for a short delay in moderating.

Firstly, I have deleted the 'Wimmin' Only' thread.

I appreciate it was very likely made in jest with no sexist intention, but, frankly, that is not how it could come across, especially to lurkers who chance upon this board. The impression it could give out is NOT one I want for UKPR2.

More serious is the Alec / TW spat.

Before getting into the spat itself, I have deleted the poll thread on this thread. The poll thread would serve no purpose other than getting others involved. I really shouldn't need to point this out.

I'll let it go this time, but, any similar action will result in at least a stern warning.

As to the spat itself, with various posts being reported to me from both sides of the divide...

Alec - A fake 'gotcha!' is not in the spirit of things here.

TW - Pointing out / reposting the above multiple times - and threatening to keep doing so is not how we do things here eithor.

Both - I am aware of your spats on UKPR1, they will not be tolerated here - and had I not had internet outage, I would cetainly have stepped in sooner.

You both make valuable contributions here otherwise, if you really can't get along, then block each other - please.

Having now, just about caught up, moderation will be back up to speed.

The more general tidying up will now happen tomorrow.

[alec]

@mark - noted and understood.

[shevii]

@mark

Good calls. As you say both polls/threads you have deleted were made with humourous intent but I think the TW v Alec one just had the effect of stirring the pot and the other one at best was silly and at worst creates an issue for anyone new visiting the site and going WTF.

I'm not even sure this particular thread should be kept now and maybe a new one should be set up for suggestions/complaints or similar? This poll is seriously out of date and no longer serves a purpose as we have decided on the set up of the board.

Other things I'm not too keen on are big blocks of twitter and pictures (jokey or otherwise) in the main thread and the constant post count comments which make the site look a bit trivial and might have started off mildly amusing when we were finding our way around the boards but becomes tedious after a while. Don't know if it is possible to remove the descriptors of senior member etc but I'd vote for that simply because the only thing people could josh about then is the number of stars. Just my view though and I suppose a series of rules over trivial things makes it harder to administer and becomes too rigid- I'm only mentioning the post count thing because there are so many of them cluttering up the board rather than wanting no-one to ever mention it.

[John Chanin]

There would be a good case for restricting posters to perhaps 3 posts a day. This would not only kill off post count comments, but would remove most of the “banter”, which may be enjoyed by the half dozen people who engage in it, but pisses off everyone else, and was part of the reason for the slow demise of the old site. If the people concerned were restricted to posting matters of political or polling interest the site would be much more readable and valuable. I really don’t want to read several pages of trash every morning in the hope there’s something valuable hidden somewhere.

[James E]

Jan 18, 2022 8:11:13 GMT shevii said:

Other things I'm not too keen on are big blocks of twitter and pictures 

I think it's good practice (in replying) to shorten people's responses to the part you want to react to, and to remove long attachments, especially twitter blocks.  As I've done here...


So when, for example, replying to a post with a tweeted poll, just delete it in the boxed text, and add something like  [R&W poll etc ]

[Deleted]

Jan 18, 2022 0:18:18 GMT Mark said:

WRT to the 'WIMMIN ONLY' thread then the comments you made behind the reason to delete that thread extend to many comments, from a limited number of people, on the main thread as well. Whilst possibly 'misjudged attempts at humour' (as jimjam) politely put it then, 'Uncle jokes' are 'uncool' (as my niece would put it). I hope you intervene to stop the misogyny comments (even if non-intentional) for the same reason that you deleted the 'WIMMIN ONLY' thread. 

For the 'spat' then thank you for finally intervening and acknowledging that it was a 'fake 'gotcha!'

I appreciate you are busy and do not wish to have to spend your time intervening and moderating the forum you kindly set up. AW eventually gave up with UKPR and I very much hope UKPR2 can raise the standard and not descend into the 'cesspit' and, as much as possible, 'self-moderate'. I have apologised many times for being one of those who dragged UKPR into a cesspit in the post-Brexit era.

Hence, I apologise for having to drag you into the return of the 'spat' after I was alerted that far too many 'digs' were occurring with no sign of any enforcement of the rules. I was then persuaded to defend myself in kind (flaming against the flaming). I will certainly go back to blocking ALEC to avoid being 'triggered' and I very much hope his 'noted and understood' comment means he will do the same.

After years of painful experience then I've accepted that neither of us can or will engage constructively with the other. No need for apologies, just ignore each other and the 'blocking' feature is the way to do so to avoid any risk of being 'triggered' and requiring your future intervention. 

[jayblanc]

If possible I suggest turning off the Star Ranking under poster's names, as it seems to be encouraging people to post when they have nothing constructive to say in order to increase their number of posts and get a higher rank.

[robert]

I can only agree with the above and fully support your intentions @mark. Personally I don't see the point of the star system, the post count, or any name other than our own 'handle'. You may recall that at one time Anthony introduced party colours but withdrew them, when it led to issues.

I do still believe that a general chit chat thread is a good idea, for discussion on fridges, war films and football and other subjects where politics polling will never be relevant but that is up to you as moderator.

[Deleted]

Jan 18, 2022 12:15:16 GMT robert said:

I do still believe that a general chit chat thread is a good idea, for discussion on fridges, war films and football and other subjects where politics polling will never be relevant but that is up to you as moderator.

Separate threads exists for 'Specific Issues' but few folks seem to use them and perhaps prefer what they think is the extra viewing on the main thread?

If Mark has the time then perhaps a 'reminder' that Issue Specific threads exist and should be used would be useful? Folks that are having what is clearly a '1 to 1+' little private chat with no relevance whatsoever to polling or a Specific Issue can and should use the 'Direct Message' function which can be their own little club for own chit chats (not dissimilar from WhatsApp groups)

The other thing I'd suggest (and use myself) is to simply 'hide' the comments from the people who write loads of worthless 'tosh' that you/others are not interested in reading. In a few cases then it might mean missing something useful very occassionally but from some folks then I've personally decided to 'hide' their comments to speed up being able to skim through the interesting/relevant stuff.

So in short UKPR2 has a lot of additional functionality over UKPR and I encourage folks to take advantage of the 'new and improved' functionality. 

[Mark]

Some more moderation.

Firstly, thank you to both Alec and TW for their replies. As far as I am concerned, the spat had been laid to rest and a line drawn under it.

As far as moderating, the vast bulk of the time, I keep up without any problems. Major snooker (the one sport I enjoy) finals = 4 days a year. Yes, I watch the other matches, but, the big 3 finals I make a day of (2 days in the case of the big one).

The rest of the time I am here and feel able to moderate. Should the board become more populated to the extent I can't keep up, I will appoint others who are willing to help me out.

I will now break this down into several posts over the next few days, so as not to tackle too much at once and give others a chance to post their thoughts.

1. It has been suggested that I remove the star / status system.

Mainly as it has led to posts on this very thing with nothing else to say.

Personally, I think this is a good idea and am inclined to do so, but, would welcome others thoughts.

---
2. BANTER.

A fair few of us know each other, both from our time here and previously from UKPR1. We know each others humour, at least as well as is possible on an online forum.

The rule of thumb is - if you are to make a humorous post, don't think about how it will be recieved by other regulars on here, but, by strangers who chance on our community and may be inclined to join - IE those that don't know your humour.

To that end, I have deleted a post re-the closure of the 'Wimmin' Only' thread.

I know the humour, as do others here, and reading the whole post, knowng the humour, the post was meant to be anti-sexist, but, given the tone of the post, it could easily be construed the other way.

This is a general point, not just about that one post.

I don't want this place to be po-faced, and am certainly not banning humour, but, will ask that you please think about how humour, in-jokes and the like would be percieved by those who don't, or don't yet, know us.

[Deleted]

Mark
Thanks Mark . I agree you should scrap stars/status. They have become an objective in themselves for some contributors.

[guymonde]

Agree about scrapping stars, but don't mind the little epithets and I actually enjoy the quotes at the bottom of posts EG the Terry Pratchett quotes from (I think) SDA.
Thanks for your efforts Mark, and I agree with the policies you have outlined

[barbara]

@mark Your work on moderation is thankless but needed so thanks.

[leftieliberal]

Mark

I fully agree. I am in favour of getting rid of stars/statuses too. I would also like to suggest getting rid of the number of posts under the avatar as it really doesn't matter how often people post; what they write is what is important. I would also favour keeping the description under the avatar, providing that @crofty was forced to be MCP, just so that unwary women visitors are not shocked by his humour; those already here know him well enough.

[steamdrivenandy]

We jest about it but I doubt that there's anyone that posts just to increase their post count, nobody on here, in my estimation, is that shallow. It's a set of new features, compared to UKPR1 and as such is treated as a novelty.

The problem is that I would suggest that each member has their own opinion on what they want from UKPR and we all, to some extent have to make allowances and be tolerant about the things we dislike.

One of the problems with people posting on unique threads is, it seems to me, that its tried for a while and there is little reaction because there are few viewers. They then believe that they'll gain 'oxygen' for their posts by using the main thread and won't revert to the unique area. In a way this is similar to post counting, in that the poster regards their posting as prothletising their views and are aggrieved that few wish to share their 'unique' offerings, so they'll 'force' viewing by posting on the main thread. Of course if members choose to bypass such postings, in whatever way, then even posting on the main thread is rendered pointless.

[thexterminatingdalek]

I'm not religious, but 'god', while amusing at first, feels like a joke that has run its course - and might be misconstrued in the same sense as Crofty's threads.

I would prefer to lose both stars and levels of membership, but happy to go with the consensus.

[domjg]

@mark  In favour of getting rid of the stars. We've only been here a couple of months, before long almost everyone here would have 'God' status and it's just a bit weird to newcomers I'd have thought. Thanks for taking the time to make this place possible.

[pete]

I think we need an American politics thread and RoW politics thread.

[leftieliberal]

Jan 18, 2022 15:31:12 GMT domjg said:

@mark  In favour of getting rid of the stars. We've only been here a couple of months, before long almost everyone here would have 'God' status and it's just a bit weird to newcomers I'd have thought. Thanks for taking the time to make this place possible.

I am reminded that Foreign Office dignitaries receive honours in the Order of St Michael and St George. The CMG is usually referred to jokingly as 'Call me God', the KCMG as 'Kindly call me God' and the GCMG as 'God calls me God'. Perhaps these are statuses so far unreached on this board.

[Deleted]

The pursuit of status from stars was amusingly very Animal Farm[1], especially given it was possible to hack your posts count with 'post+delete' if you quickly wanted to raise your status. I'm not bothered either way (ie put me down as DK or abstain) but as a suggestion then for something that should be non-partisan, non-confrontational and for which Mark has regal powers then might I suggest we use the polling feature of UKPR2?

The first two efforts to date haven't really worked out (one attempt at democracy is being largely ignored and the other was maybe a bad idea) but on something where Mark is seeking a 'democratic' view then what better on a polling forum than a poll!

The one issue would be 'turnout' but 'no vote = no say' so quorum could be set fairly low.

For the 'Stars in their Eyes' issue then it looks like the vote is going through 'on the nod' but as speaker then if Mark thinks it's close then he can call 'division' and pop up a poll for folks to vote on. We probably already have tellers on both sides (probably how Mark gets the info in the first place) and then a period of time for everyone to have their say. Then you can vote before the deadline and the Act passes under Mark 's Royal Ascent. 

All hopefully before the next big snooker game or the UN calling upon Mark for help sorting out the Middle East 

[1] www.sparknotes.com/lit/animalfarm/characters/

[Danny]

Jan 18, 2022 8:31:38 GMT John Chanin said:

There would be a good case for restricting posters to perhaps 3 posts a day. This would not only kill off post count comments, but would remove most of the “banter”, which may be enjoyed by the half dozen people who engage in it, but pisses off everyone else, and was part of the reason for the slow demise of the old site. If the people concerned were restricted to posting matters of political or polling interest the site would be much more readable and valuable. I really don’t want to read several pages of trash every morning in the hope there’s something valuable hidden somewhere.

You could set a limit on number of posts but it would be very arbitrary if there are a lot of events to discuss so i really dont support that.

I have been attacked for persistently posting about covid, but it remains the most important issue in current politics and several others like to post about covid too. You cannot banish it to a subsidiary thread, although I like having a subsidiary covid thread for wider debate and detail. But that doesnt mean detail has no place on the main thread, especially if a one sided argument has been posted by someone already.

Over the years there have been many posts on gardening, sport, fridges, humpur, films, and I dont know what else which nothing whatever to do with current political issues or polling.  They seem to me to be intended to hide the actual debate and are counter productive to a political or polling debate. Their main purpose seems to be to scroll on a few pages so as to hide significant postings. Fillibustering.

[EmCat]

Jan 18, 2022 8:31:38 GMT John Chanin said:

There would be a good case for restricting posters to perhaps 3 posts a day. This would not only kill off post count comments, but would remove most of the “banter”, which may be enjoyed by the half dozen people who engage in it, but pisses off everyone else, and was part of the reason for the slow demise of the old site. If the people concerned were restricted to posting matters of political or polling interest the site would be much more readable and valuable. I really don’t want to read several pages of trash every morning in the hope there’s something valuable hidden somewhere.

On a board that is internal to my work, there was a voluntary limit of 30 posts per month, specifically to avoid "Ditto" or "I agree" type responses, and instead encouraged people to think about whether their content had something to add. Over the 15+ years it has been operating, the voluntary limit worked well.

Those who over-stepped the count would be "awarded" a virtual "Order of Excessive Posting", which was meant to be a minor shaming of those who were too profligate (repeat offenders would be reported to the site admin, who could implement temporary or permanent bans if it was felt to be particularly bad)

Perhaps there should be a suggested limit on posts, rather than a hard limit, that would tend to make people double up responses, so they end up having multiple comments in a single post, which does not always work well if their responses are on different topics as well as to different individuals.


On the Star/member type, then I think that colin has an appropriate moniker, as he has successfully managed to contribute to the site without being online (the member stats shows he was last online before Christmas). Only someone who can reorder the laws of the universe could manage that feat! 

[oldnat]

Agree about removing stars/status. I find it useful to see the number of posts made, simply to see that if someone is new and should be welcomed.

[Deleted]

EmCat

@"I think that colin has an appropriate moniker, as he has successfully managed to contribute to the site without being online (the member stats shows he was last online before Christmas). Only someone who can reorder the laws of the universe could manage that feat! "

A feat available, at a keystroke to anyone choosing the appropriate "Privacy" option on this board.

:-)