What should the board look like

[shevii]

There's been a bit of discussion about how the board should function.  So it might be useful to put this in one place and see if we can come up with a consensus.  I've put up this poll with not to be set in stone questions but just to sound out what people would like to see with the comments being more relevant than the actual poll.

I personally liked the one thread style of UKPR as compared to vote UK where you are jumping all over the place to find things but I think most people would agree that the way UKPR ended was with certain subjects dominating the thread (brexit, covid and individuals arguing among themselves) and it put a lot of people off and became quite cluttered. Economy, brexit, covid are all relevant to polling but it felt like people were arguing the issue rather than the polling implications and my personal view is that where a subject starts to dominate then maybe it should be shifted to a separate thread?  It's better with light moderation so my ideal would be that these things can be discussed in the main thread when relevant to polling but if it gets excessive people suggest to the ones posting that they take it to another thread that may already have been set up for that purpose or can be set up if needed.

[Deleted]

@ SHEVII - Wow, great minds...

[leftieliberal]

I think that we should take advantage of the features on here that were not on UKPR. So, I would like to see one thread devoted to polling results and discussion of them (and parliamentary election and by-election results) only. Let's leave local elections to the existing fora for them. While the debate over HS2 was interesting, it would have been better in a separate thread, as also for the debate on covid. At the same time I wouldn't want to see too many separate threads, perhaps no more than about 10. So:

1. Polling and parliamentary elections (including the Scottish Parliament, Welsh Senedd, Northern Ireland Assembly, Dáil Éireann, EU and European Countries Presidential and Parliamentary Elections)
2. General (for topics that don't fit anywhere else)
3. chit-chat (for humour and other light-hearted discussion)
4-10 (max) topics (generic topics like transport, environment, health, international etc might be suitable)

What do others think?

[steamdrivenandy]

I can see the sense in partitioning off topics that might build and clutter, but to do that properly requires active moderation, which UKPR 1 really didn't have. So it really depends whether there's sufficient moderation capacity on into the future.

[Mark]

My intention is to make this place as similar as possible to the original UKPR site. Any suggestions will, of course be taken on board.

I have created an 'Issue Specific' board for topics that may have long discussions. I remember, for instance on the original UKPR board, Princess Rachel saying she had no desire to read brexit related posts - and left when virtually every post for a while was about brexit. (I hope she finds this place and joins).

So, there is now a place for such discussions. These issues can still be discussed in the polling threads, but, there is now a place for longer, or more indepth discussion on such issues.

Anyone can start a new thread there, but, PLEASE START NEW THREADS IN THERE SPARINGLY.

I have moved the "It's the economy" thread there. The member who started the thread has requested it be deleted. I have locked it for now - and if the request for it's deletion still stands, I will do so, if not, I will unlock it.

There is no need to date 'Issue Specific' threads as they don't relate to any specific time or event, but, I will insist that any threads in the general section are dated - be they poll threads or threads on major events that can have an effect on polling (EG, Johnson or Starmer resigning, election being called).

Re-polling threads, my thouhts are that a thread for every single new poll would get messy, particularly near an election. It is fine to post a new poll in the current polling thread.

It is fine to make a new thread when the existng poll thread gets lengthy or runs out of steam, or when an important poll is released.

Any feedback or suggestions are welcome.

[turk]

I agree that a one thread style would suit conversations that cover unfolding political situations and cover weekly polling . However it maybe that topics like the endless merry go round of brexit or Covid could be removed to different threads to keep the political and polling debate fresh and current.

[Deleted]

@ SHEVII - Where do you see the difference between your options 2 and 4?

Seems to be a general consensus so far for one main thread[1] to 'copy' UKPR with other minor threads kept separate if/when they clutter up main thread or are off topic chit chat. The only difference I can see is whether some of the separate threads are planned in advance/anticipation (eg a 'Nature' thread) or whether they just get created when need arises.

[1] Back in the UKPR then MARK made some comments and the 'main thread' could get the odd 'reset' after a period of time or a major event/new poll (not dissimilar to the way AW used to post a new thread on UKPR that then became the main thread). That might be a good way to close off stale debates or reset after a period of 'poll drums' if some new polling has shifted the dial (eg recently then 'Tory Sleaze' has IMO seen polls move to roughly 'tied' from CON lead of about 4 pre 'Owen goal'). MARK's decision of course but he seems willing to get some input.

[shevii]

@ SDA

I have modded a forum before alongside other mods and it's not that great an experience as people are upset if you do something or upset if you don't and everyone likes to have a go at the ref and/or storm off in a huff. I think rather than active moderation it would be nicer to see people tell others to "get a room" if it's cluttering a main thread and build a consensus among the members that that is what they should do. I think most people on UKPR were pretty good at self moderation, even towards the end, and taking hints made in the right manner. It wasn't that bad a forum without moderation except that one or two topics (Covid and Brexit) appeared everyday with people saying the same things for like 18 months/5 years respectively!

@ LL

Agree with your comments. I forgot to give your 2/3 and 4-10 as a combined option which is my preferred one as well. I think 10 might be too many threads though and happy enough for people to discuss some of these things in 1-3 unless it becomes overwhelming. 4-10 could maybe be just 4 and 5 onwards could be for "get a room" discussions that get on people's nerves!

[shevii]

Nov 20, 2021 14:25:49 GMT @tw said:

@ SHEVII - Where do you see the difference between your options 2 and 4?

I did kind of make a mistake with that- 2 was to cover the issue of polling being separated from general chat and 4 was to cover the issue of people getting bored with an endless debate on the same subject within polling but of course did not give an option for both which is my preferred one.

[Deleted]

Nov 20, 2021 14:23:53 GMT Mark said:

I have moved the "It's the economy" thread there (to 'Issue Specific'). The member who started the thread has requested it be deleted. I have locked it for now - and if the request for it's deletion still stands, I will do so, if not, I will unlock it.

Thanks Mark. Agree your points, ignore my last post as I was writing that same time as you. Now you've set up the 'Issue Specific' tab then please delete 'It's the economy..'

I certainly don't want to burden you with a load of 'admin' and doubt anyone else does either but my one concern with 'created by' being shown is that it will stifle 'non-partisan' debate. My views are well known (or in many cases projected) and I appreciate I come across quite confrontational so I wouldn't want my name attached to 'created by' as that might put folks off posting or turn that thread into a 'do-over' of old battles, even with the 'block' feature hopefully stopping that. Hence I see some merit on yourself or someone without historic UKPR 'baggage' being the 'created by' person for new main threads (in the old AW role) or 'issue specific' threads.

[davwel]

I too liked the one-thread style of UKPR1, but voted for Option 2 anticipating this new site is going to get plenty of users and one thread could be overwhelmed. However I hope having more threads for other topics doesn`t produce too many of them and tiny niches. So I would go for an Option 2A - a new-poll thread and a second general thread.

[Mark]

@tw - I have deleted the thread as requested and understand your reasons for wanting it's deletion.

I will re-iterate, anyone can start an 'issue specific' thread, but, please keep it for major issues that would otherwise clutter up the main polling threads. For the record, I think the economy is an issue that would need it's own thread and on that level, I'm sorry to see it go.

[Deleted]

Nov 20, 2021 14:55:13 GMT Mark said:

@tw - I have deleted the thread as requested and understand your reasons for wanting it's deletion.

I will re-iterate, anyone can start an 'issue specific' thread, but, please keep it for major issues that would otherwise clutter up the main polling threads. For the record, I think the economy is an issue that would need it's own thread and on that level, I'm sorry to see it go.

Thank you Mark. If you can think of a few topics that will likely need their own room then could I be so bold as to request you put a few up, or ask a fellow 'neutral' or 'baggage free' person to join you as admin?

I used to run the admin for some blogs for various clubs quite a few years ago. I got into literal fights over some of them[1] and honest enough to admit some, not all, of that blame was on me (probably not a surprising bit of 'back story') 

[1] A 'locals' Mountain Biking blog I set up nearly went to legal issues due to unsanctioned trails being built and discussed on the blog. Despite repeated requests and some kicking for the users to not discuss 'illegal' trails on a public forum some folks just couldn't help themselves so I closed that site down. WhatsApp for that kind of thing these days 

[Deleted]

Been out all day.
Of the Format Options provided by Mark-just voted for 2.
I think separating pure polling data/updates from One , UKPR like THread for chat is my prefrence.

Question for Mark. I,ve signed up for AW's Newsletter . They will be by email . I guess they will be as informative and useful as ever. How about a thread for a Copy/Paste of these Newsletters? . Or does that stray into Copyright territory ?

Thanks again for you efforts here Mark.

[Mark]

colin : Re-Anthony's newsletters, that would be a question for him, not me. Personally, I'd be happpy to see them pasted here, *** IF - AND ONLY IF *** Anthony is happy for that to be done. I suspect there is at least a chance he may not be, so, please do not paste without his go-ahead.
-
I have made one change to the boards. Quoted text now has a black border as I felt that this makes it easier to distinguish quoted text from the rest of a post.

[Deleted]

Thanks Mark.

Of course-will ask him when I get the first edition.

[catfuzz]

To mirror my post in the other thread, I would fear having dedicated threads to other topics could split discussion into their respective camps, thus losing some of magic that made UKPR what it was (which for me as a longtime lurker, was a plethora of insightful perspectives from different corners of the political playing field all in one place).

I also feel that most here are mature and respectful enough to know when a conversation extraneous to polling is dominating a thread, and so would create a sub-thread when needed that all relevant parties may go to and continue (hence my vote for option 4).

But of course, IMHO and all that so I would defer to what the status quo becomes and whatever is easier for Mark to manage.

As an aside, can we call this ‘Mark’s Polling Ark’?

[peterbell]

Mark, would it be possible to automatically put a time against each post and to encourage members to include the name of the initial poster and the time when replying to a particular post. This would make it easier for other members to follow particular conversations.

[Mark]

Nov 20, 2021 18:42:00 GMT peterbell said:

Mark, would it be possible to automatically put a time against each post and to encourage members to include the name of the initial poster and the time when replying to a particular post. This would make it easier for other members to follow particular conversations.

The full/exact timestamp is already there. You simply have to hover your mouse over where it says 'x minutes ago'.

I agree a full timestamp readily displayed would be better and I shall look into whether it is possible to do.

EDITED TO ADD : Without me doing anything (other than looking through the help boards), I am now getting the full timestamp on each post.

I assume that this is the same for everyone.

As far s I'm aware, I am the only person that can change settings, so, if someone else here has done it, please let me know - and let me know how.

[oldnat]

Like others, I appreciated the "single thread" concept of UKPR. Since folk could comment on anything - thorium, HS2, etc as well as polling, it meant that I could be introduced to topics and ideas that were new to me. If they were locked away on an "off topic" thread, I might never see them at all, which would have been sad, and I could just scroll past the posts that didn't interest me.

At the same time, some topics can exercise passions for a long time, with little new being said. Perhaps polling, or genuinely new information, on such topics (agreed by consensus?) - egCovid/Brexit - could be posted on the main thread, but discussion of them consigned to the appropriate place.

For example, discussion of Scots indy bored Anthony, so he demanded that discussion of that had to take place on a "Saltire thread". I'd suggest that when indyref2 comes along and lots of folk want to argue the minutiae (but important minutiae) as to why Scotland would bask in glory or descend into cannibalism, that polling on that should be reported on the main polling thread, and those who wish to discuss it/see discussions on it could go to a specific thread. But it is too soon for that on that topic.

Discussions of Brexit and Covid, however, have been going on for ages, and few on here will be unaware of the key issues or the stances taken by protagonists. It may be that such extensive discussions on these topics don't transfer over here in the same way, so I wouldn't recommend creating separate threads for these yet, but we should be prepared for that to happen, and create places for these.

These suggestions "off the top of my head", so I haven't thought about the mechanics - just expounding a principle.

[eor]

I broadly agree with Oldnat above.

Another consideration is that some things don't neatly divide. If we had a thread for discussion of US politics, it would usually be very clear which posts/subjects belonged in it, and usually pretty clear when something was remarkable or far-reaching enough to belong in the main discussion.

If it were say COVID then it's messier. A post from me giving comparative current stats around Europe would clearly belong in the COVID thread, as would endless restatement of belief about how the virus arose and spread. Posts about prior government responses to it would go there too, as would arguments about whether vaccines have been more or less effective. Whilst if say the PM announced a new lockdown, that would obviously be in the main chat.

But then... someone looking at the latest UK numbers and wishing to argue that they are cause for concern and likely to lead to an extremely politically damaging change of policy direction? That's likely to feel to them like a main chat topic. Likewise whether the current VI drop for CON is partly due to vaccine bounce fading. And then contesting such views would be very difficult for other posters without bringing in the kind of strategic inputs, and regional/global/historical contexts and comparisons that we just consigned to the niche thread.

And whilst I would cheerfully never read half of the Brexit ping-pong again, I think it's tricky there too. Issues like the supply chain problems, high job vacancies in certain roles/sectors, and even more intangible things like how voters feel about the economy, I don't see how we can avoid these things in the main chat if the main chat is still to be an all-around-the-issues discussion and not purely on polling itself. Once we're talking about those things it's surely not going to be practical to say we should discuss them without going onto the wisdom of Brexit, because that feels like a key political contention for both sides, the extent to which things are/aren't a direct consequence of Brexit, and how extensively the political map would change if certain groups of voters were to identify them as such.

[mercian]

eor
I can see what you're getting at. One helpful feature is to look at 'Recent posts' which shows posts from all threads, so it's possible to see what's being said in different areas. Another suggestion is what I have seen on Vote UK where after an off-topic subject has been discussed a bit too much, someone suggests it should be moved to a different thread and it does (sometimes by Admin but not always). No system is perfect, but I agree with those who suggest that the number of threads should be as few as is practical.

[alec]

Great to see so many old friends here, along with the rest.

I haven't voted for an option, because I don't know the right answer. I do have three observations though, and one revolutionary suggestion. I post these as one of the chief guilty parties of detailed drilling down into obscure and often boring (to others) aspects of topics that many would happily leave behind. You need protection from people like me. I get that.

1) The single thread style of UKPR was excellent, as many have said. I wonder whether multiple threads is the best way to attract new posters, and whether the confusion of multiple threads may artificially separate topics from themes, and create a bewildering array of isolated two way conversations, when these things work best as temporally linear discussions covering varied topics? There is an ancient Chinese proverb dating apparently from the Ying Dynasty that translates as "many threads make a heavy cloth".

I lied about the Chinese proverb, but you get the idea.

2) There needs to be some protection from people like me, who can really bore others and act as a significant turn off to existing and new posters, so I really like shevii's idea of a single thread with the 'get a room' social pressure notion, when a small group or pair of posters start to disappear down rabbit holes, repeatedly. There is a role here for some light moderation also, but the demise of UKPR and rise of UKPR2 has provided a chance for everyone to review, and there seems to be a new mood of cooperative thinking here.

3) I personally don't feel we should be too concerned to separate out threads that discuss polls from those that discuss wider issues. That is my view, but the strength of UKPR was that it allowed people interested in polls to learn more about them while still discussing the rpolitics behind the poll numbers. As eor says, many comments don't divide into neat sections, so getting too concerned with threads and how to organise tem loses something.

And now for the revolutionary idea:

Why don't we just have one thread for each month?

- easy to manage
- maintains an understandable flow
- allows for straightforward archive search back [very important for those of us familiar with rabbit holes...]
- looks attractive for browsers and potential new posters
- easy to fit with political calenders (elections in May, news events, etc etc)
- time limited, with minimal requirements for Mark as site host
- there is always the promise of a new thread if one gets too obsessive and dull

Any takers?

[thexterminatingdalek]

I'm with Alec. I didn't vote either, not just because I've never voted for a winning candidate or side, nor even because it only encourages them.

My heart says a single thread to maintain the illusion of ukpr, my head says let there be quiet corners for endless debate concerning the finer details of thorium and heat pumps.

My concern is that topics which are of no import to polling will remain ghettoised when they suddenly break through into public awareness and shift opinion. I also worry that splitting threads might encourage the development of cliques. The greatest joy of ukpr for me is that it is/was the only place I ever visited online which forces me away from the echo chamber all but the most thorough among us now inhabit. The civility of debate in this group is, in the main, something remarkable and to be cherished.

We are all used to scrolling through acres of screeds concerning peripheral and niche ideas, for me it was a major part of what makes ukpr what it is. I long ago stopped trying to catch up if I missed a day or two, just skip back a couple of pages and take it from there.

I think the idea of a monthly (or perhaps fortnightly or even weekly) thread is an excellent one.

[Deleted]

A weekly, monthly, whatever thread sounds sensible to me. The time frame can gradually adjust to take in how active, or not, the site is.

The idea of multi- topics seems rather self-defeating.

[oldnat]

Alec

"And now for the revolutionary idea"

I'm all for revolutionary evolution!

Anthony used to reset the site with a new header every so often, and an occasional/regular new start seems sensible. The last thread on UKPR was the exception, not the norm.

If separate threads become necessary for particular topics, these can be introduced, but let's not start out with that model.

[eor]

I pretty much agree with what Alec, TED, Mercian and Crofty have said - tho I'm looking at the participants in this thread so far and I think it'd be great to hear from more of the lurkers who'd been prevented from posting, I think only Catifuzz has joined in and it's been otherwise (mostly very regular) posters from the old site.

As people who've followed the site closely but not been embroiled in the rabbit holes, what thoughts do you guys have on what format would work best?

[neilj]

I would go along with what EOR, Alec, TED, Mercian and Crofty have said. For me the fewer the threads running at the same time the better

[steamdrivenandy]

One thing we should bear in mind is that UKPR had the unique benefit of occasional input from AW which educated us all in the dark and not so dark arts of polling. It's likely that we'll not have such an authoritative source to cast light on such issues and poke the board's direction in future. Unless, of course, we attract a new polling Messiah who is willing to take us under their wing. I recognise that AW's input has gradually reduced and that UKPR carried on regardless in latter times but it was good that there was such input to make us think and clarify the issues of opinion polling.

It could mean the demise of that educational factor in the board's mission and become an even more politically argumentative forum with occasional 'got'cha' moments when new polling is published.

In the spirit of Alec's revolution I'm wondering if each, say monthly, thread should have a leader article written by one of the members on a subject close to their hearts and not necessarily discussed recently. A sort of kick starter which may, or may not develop discussion.

[robert]

I think the monthly thread idea has some merit, it had half crossed my mind. One thread on a monthly renewal makes it easy to keep up with the overall conversation. Trying to keep up with multiple threads on different subjects will be difficult. Look how complicated we all initially thought this forum was, with seemingly hundreds of threads, until Mark set UKPR2 up and showed us how we could simply replicate what we have been used to. The old adage, 'As simple as you can and as complicated as you must', springs to mind.

I too hope that contributors are having a reset, with hopefully, an end to never ending squabbles usually caused by some posters (no names, no pack drill) deliberately misunderstanding others points of view, or misrepresenting them, or arguing asinine points, or calling people idiots (or much worse), simply because a certain view is held, or vote was made. Let's all just start from the premise that we hold different views, usually for perfectly valid reasons and respect that. The constant derision heaped on one type of voter is tiresome, to say the least. Derision, like no platforming, (as practised in a growing number of our universities), is the last defence of those with no argument to put forward; the aim being, to humiliate, or shut down discussion with those whom they disagree with. Let's not go there.

I also welcome the new members who have signed in and hope that they will feel confident enough to join the conversation, rather than just lurk in the background. It's also good to see some of the fairer sex join this former blokes club and they will hopefully add some different perspectives.