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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2023 7:16:59 GMT
Do you think autotext saved isa some embarrassment here? I think with a name like his isa probably disables autotext. |
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Post by barbara on Aug 19, 2023 7:26:16 GMT
Saw this on a tweet-
Men:
Football’s coming home!! It’s coming home!! IT’s coming!!
Women, 60yrs later: … FFS I’ll get it myself.
⚽️💪🏃🏻♀️
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Post by neilj on Aug 19, 2023 7:30:03 GMT
Saw this on a tweet- Men: Football’s coming home!! It’s coming home!! IT’s coming!! Women, 60yrs later: … FFS I’ll get it myself. ⚽️💪🏃🏻♀️ Brilliant |
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Post by steve on Aug 19, 2023 7:36:42 GMT
Entertainment news.  |
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Post by steve on Aug 19, 2023 7:43:06 GMT
The Lucy Letby case is tragic my heart goes out to all the victims their friends and families.
Spare a thought for the police officers tasked with this investigation.
Police officers in general are fully functional members of the human race and when called upon to investigate the most horrendous of acts we're just as bemused at the convoluted horror that appears to inflict the thinking of such abusers.
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Post by steve on Aug 19, 2023 7:55:10 GMT
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 19, 2023 8:57:06 GMT
Interesting from election maps Aggregate totals for local election by elections since May. Aggregate Result of the 37 Council By-Elections Since LE2023: LAB: 12 (-4) LDM: 9 (+3) GRN: 6 (+4) CON: 5 (-5) IND: 4 (+4) LOC: 1 (=) SNP: 0 (-2) Again it doesn't reflect the gains that might be expected by Labour given the huge polling leads.With both largest parties losing. Actually, the three largest parties at Westminster losing.  |
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Post by steve on Aug 19, 2023 9:02:52 GMT
GBeebies at it again. they decide that the tragic and exceptionally unusual case of Lucy Letby allows them to raise the lowest common denominator of the death sentence again. State sanctioned executions have been very infrequent in the UK since 1950,the death penalty for murder was removed in 1965 and no further executions have taken place despite the death penalty actually remaining in place for treason until 1998. Consequently the number of " wrongful" executions have also been rare the cases of Timothy Evans and Derek Bentley come to mind. However in the U.S. at least 200 people have been executed with no justification since 1970 more than 15% of all executions! Just 58 countries world wide retain state sanctioned executions , many are authoritarian or dictatorships. It's saddening that the trumpian right in the UK have latched on to this barbarism as their new ambition along with leaving the ECHR. Brexitania can then be in lock step with Belarus the only country in Europe that retains the death penalty. youtu.be/bCKCg5yYuhoyoutu.be/bCKCg5yYuho |
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Post by Danny on Aug 19, 2023 9:05:15 GMT
colin Blair had 'two jabs' Prescott Why do you keep calling him two jabs? This is rather curious because the original phrase was 'two jags', based on him having two jaguar cars. I do not recollect this changing in general usage, though the wikipedia article now mentions it. I asked someone else interested in politics, who also does not recall this changing at the time. I see a 2005 version of the wiki page suggests this was a temporary alternative after an altercation, but that must imply it didnt catch on. So how come he has retrospectively become 'two jabs'? |
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 19, 2023 9:08:21 GMT
Colin/Alec
The Letby case is deeply disturbing on a number of levels, and the Inquiry is bound to expose some appalling maladministration and negligence. Maybe even something worse, but, for now, I am more interested in Letby and her crimes. Not in the sense of any morbid fascination, but more in relation to what in earth motivated her to do what she did.
I am not in any way qualified to talk about the psychology involved here, but I was interested to hear a criminologist talk about the case on Newsnight last night. He specialised in the study of Health workers who end up killing or harming those that they care for. They are extremely rare crimes, thank goodness, but in Shipman, Allitt and now Letby, patterns can be observed, apparently. The killers have characteristics that make it very difficult for employers and managers to detect and stop them.
The criminologist, who has studied all these cases in depth, said that all of the offenders had probably decided they wanted to kill quite some time before they actually did so. No clues about this would be detectable in terms of past or current behaviour. They would be popular with colleagues and patients too, but there was nothing reactive or impulsive about their murdering. They would have been seeking out victims, and access to them, for some considerable time. The victims would be the most vulnerable, the ill very young and old, where death could be explained away by natural causes and the real reasons often concealed for years. This allowed Letby to kill over a twelve month period.
No selection procedures could ever be sufficiently honed to be able to detect these people before they were recruited. The pattern is that they have no past history of offending They then hide in plain sight, probably doing good work, before the dreadful ticking time bomb within them detonates.
There must be a cause for their psychopathy but it's beyond my ken.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 19, 2023 9:14:23 GMT
The Lucy Letby case is tragic, but another insight into the institutional inertia within the medical establishment. In this case, clinicians knew something was deeply wrong, but their hospital administrators closed their eyes and ears and failed to heed the warnings, with terrible consequences. We see a very similar dynamic with hospital acquired covid infections, but this time managers and clinicians are aligned. I'm struck by the deafening silence I get on here when I point these failing out. In other areas, the common response is 'it's not a problem for the fit and healthy', but hospitals are full of the vulnerable - the people most in need of care. More figures came out yesterday, this time from Australia, where FoI requests have revealed 600 deaths from HAI covid cases, at a fatality rate of 10%. Hospitals have basically given up on infection control. Bizarrely, in many NHS trusts, infection controls are less stringent than they were pre-covid. Work that one out. The evidence is clear, the data is there, the deaths are obvious. Yet no one - absolutely no one - in the medical establishment is listening. But it's worth reminding ourselves of just how many times the medical establishment has got management, policy and treatment decisions just so completely and utterly wrong, as in the Letby case. That is complete nonsense alec; do give it a rest. It might not be the infection control arrangements you want to see, but they are the ones that the actual experts deem to be appropriate and proportionate. I appreciate you won't be interested in the official stats, as you deem evidence that doesn't fit your world view to be wrong. But for anyone who is interested, Covid is only the 8th highest cause of death this year and it was 24th in the month of June 2023, the most recent for which the ONS has published data: "In June 2023, 9 of the 10 leading causes of death were also the leading causes of death in the year to date (January to June 2023). The ranking was also generally similar, with the top three causes in June 2023 remaining consistent with the top three causes in the year to date. Coronavirus (COVID-19) ranked eighth in the year to date, compared with 24th in June 2023." www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/monthlymortalityanalysisenglandandwales/june2023I'm not going to say anything further on this. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 19, 2023 9:26:50 GMT
GBeebies at it again. they decide that the tragic and exceptionally unusual case of Lucy Letby allows them to raise the lowest common denominator of the death sentence again. Even if we had the death penalty I doubt it would be applied to Lucy Letby. There is no 'smoking gun' in this case, no definitive bit of evidence, no one witnessed her do anything, no confession, no known motive. She has been found guilty on circumstantial evidence, albeit such a huge weight of circumstantial evidence that it allowed for a number of what look to be safe convictions. Given that is the nature of this case, I doubt that something as irreversible as execution would be found appropriate, just in case new evidence emerges in the future. Obviously, on a personal level I oppose the death penalty in all cases. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2023 9:31:02 GMT
Colin/Alec The Letby case is deeply disturbing on a number of levels, and the Inquiry is bound to expose some appalling maladministration and negligence. Maybe even something worse, but, for now, I am more interested in Letby and her crimes. Not in the sense of any morbid fascination, but more in relation to what in earth motivated her to do what she did. I am not in any way qualified to talk about the psychology involved here, but I was interested to hear a criminologist talk about the case on Newsnight last night. He specialised in the study of Health workers who end up killing or harming those that they care for. They are extremely rare crimes, thank goodness, but in Shipman, Allitt and now Letby, patterns can be observed, apparently. The killers have characteristics that make it very difficult for employers and managers to detect and stop them. The criminologist, who has studied all these cases in depth, said that all of the offenders had probably decided they wanted to kill quite some time before they actually did so. No clues about this would be detectable in terms of past or current behaviour. They would be popular with colleagues and patients too, but there was nothing reactive or impulsive about their murdering. They would have been seeking out victims, and access to them, for some considerable time. The victims would be the most vulnerable, the ill very young and old, where death could be explained away by natural causes and the real reasons often concealed for years. This allowed Letby to kill over a twelve month period. No selection procedures could ever be sufficiently honed to be able to detect these people before they were recruited. The pattern is that they have no past history of offending They then hide in plain sight, probably doing good work, before the dreadful ticking time bomb within them detonates. There must be a cause for their psychopathy but it's beyond my ken. I heard a specialist on R4 yesterday opining that we will never know why she did it because she will never talk about it. Of course you wont spot these people at recruitment-the police are looking at infant mortality in her previous places of work ! Surely the greater concern is how to stop them killing after they have been hired , with day to day procedures , trip wires and warning indicators . And fearless adherence to them by all levels of management. So on to another enquiry which will conclude that we must learn the lessons which all previous enquiries told us to learn. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Aug 19, 2023 9:38:39 GMT
Also in the Telegraph If you’re under 50, it’s time to jump ship – get out of Britain while you canOf course, it was rather easier to jump ship pre-Brexit, which the Telegraph was an enthusiastic advocate for. This is really quite bizarre stuff from the Torygraph. I suppose cleansing the country of under-50s might please their paymasters in some respects (Cons might even be able to form a government in the near future!) but if the paper is capable of recognising this parlous state of affairs, why exactly has it been an enthusiastic cheerleader for a party and economic model that has left the country in its present state? Why will it continue to be so when the next election is called? What an absurd organ. Thing is, the switchover age where most people vote lab changing to most people vote con is going up all the time. So in another decade very likely that would be advice for under 60s. Obviously these people arent going to emigrate, what is really happening is the con block voter is becoming extinct. And that is because the model created under Thatcher of first giving away the state housing supply, encouraging owner occupiers and then encouraging house price inflation has run its course. Its become impossible to enter that sausage machine delivering conservative voters at the end of it, so it has stopped working. Although its also clear the negative aspects of this of creating a more divided population have also started to worry more voters. The affluent manual labourer has become the impoverished manual labourer, and we have started noticing we actually do need manual labourers. Its all very reminiscent of the hitch hikers guide to the galaxy, where a world population was destroyed because they had got rid of all the useless telephone sanitisers, only to succumb to a telephone spread disease. That was comedy, but the point is very relevant now. Manual labourers have not been valued, we have driven them to extinction. So now they are breaking the economy as we realise we do need them. The shortage of lorry drivers, care workers and nurses. To mention the topical ones. They all still need big pay rises to reflect the true value we place on their work, but this can only be paid for by income reductions for others. |
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Post by Danny on Aug 19, 2023 9:44:28 GMT
Sadly, your second paragraph is still broadly true, despite innumerable polices and statements to the contrary,whistle-blowers are generally not believed and subject to persecution. This is not unique to the NHS or to the public sector, but seems to be a general feature of humanity. Subservience to authority and 'not rocking the boat' are highly prized values - dissidence and non-conformity frowned upon. Yeah its funny what happens when I criticise the adoption of lockdown against covid as ineffectual and vastly wasteful of money which could have been better spent otherwise. And attack the vaccine campaign as similarly under performing. In the latter case, even more core NHS staff agreed towards the tail end of the vaccination program that there was little point vaccinating younger people, and the NHS itself would not have funded it. As witness the NHS no longer providing covid vaccinations except for the high risk.
Its exactly the same phenomenon. The establishment cannot accept being criticised for a massive policy mistake and always denies that there was one. Its not possible for authorities to accept the world did the wrong thing in trying to manage this disease.
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 19, 2023 9:45:23 GMT
The Lucy Letby case is tragic, but another insight into the institutional inertia within the medical establishment. In this case, clinicians knew something was deeply wrong, but their hospital administrators closed their eyes and ears and failed to heed the warnings, with terrible consequences. We see a very similar dynamic with hospital acquired covid infections, but this time managers and clinicians are aligned. I'm struck by the deafening silence I get on here when I point these failing out. In other areas, the common response is 'it's not a problem for the fit and healthy', but hospitals are full of the vulnerable - the people most in need of care. More figures came out yesterday, this time from Australia, where FoI requests have revealed 600 deaths from HAI covid cases, at a fatality rate of 10%. Hospitals have basically given up on infection control. Bizarrely, in many NHS trusts, infection controls are less stringent than they were pre-covid. Work that one out. The evidence is clear, the data is there, the deaths are obvious. Yet no one - absolutely no one - in the medical establishment is listening. But it's worth reminding ourselves of just how many times the medical establishment has got management, policy and treatment decisions just so completely and utterly wrong, as in the Letby case. That is complete nonsense alec; do give it a rest. It might not be the infection control arrangements you want to see, but they are the ones that the actual experts deem to be appropriate and proportionate. I appreciate you won't be interested in the official stats, as you deem evidence that doesn't fit your world view to be wrong. But for anyone who is interested, Covid is only the 8th highest cause of death this year and it was 24th in the month of June 2023, the most recent for which the ONS has published data:
Not very fair to alec really: as has been pointed out on a number of occasions, you can’t rationally just compare Covid with other leading causes of death without making allowance for how Covid can be implicated in some of those other deaths. Among other things, Covid can attack the heart and blood vessels* so can impact heart and stroke-related deaths for example. (Besides which there are the people who may die in the future of something triggered by Covid, maybe dementia, and all the people who didn’t die but suffer from long Covid etc. - deaths are not necessarily the only thing to be concerned about here). * Covid breaks into cells via the ACE2 receptors on the surface of the cells, and things like the heart and blood vessels tend to have quite a lot of ACE2 receptors, as do the lungs, brain, et cetera |
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Post by Danny on Aug 19, 2023 9:46:29 GMT
obviously it is a waste of money testing rivers if after discovering they are polluted you then do nothing about it... |
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Post by Danny on Aug 19, 2023 9:59:33 GMT
The Lucy Letby case is tragic, but another insight into the institutional inertia within the medical establishment. In this case, clinicians knew something was deeply wrong, but their hospital administrators closed their eyes and ears and failed to heed the warnings, with terrible consequences. Hmm. The board has responded stating they were advised the spate of deaths could not be because of malicious intervention. That begs the question how someone investigating came to that conclusion, but its not quite so simple as it first looks. What you dont seem to be getting is that, yes indeed, hospitals are full of vulnerable people. They are terrible places to go if you are at all unwell! And yet people do go because they need treatment for something or other and the risk from that is worse than the risk from attending hospital. This risk is well known. I am reminded of a story I heard recently about the black death, with a hospital refusing to allow anyone to enter who had the plague, obviously because of the risk to others. Its been recognised for a very long time that people catch diseases in hospitals. And so you have to place covid in context. There are still huge numbers of the general population with covid. Zoe still reporting about 800,000 people with the disease at any one time. Its not possible to keep it out of a hospital. It has simply become just one of the risks you run by going there if you are ill. Not forgetting covid has always only been a serious risk to people in already impaired health. Thats unfair. However there are bigger risks than covid and we do not close hospitals because of them either. There isnt much we could do, maybe knock down and rebuild all modern multi person ward hospitals, at huge expense before we even paid off the last round of PFI construction of them?
The stats had about 10,000 people a year dying from unidentified pneumonia type diseases before covid arrived. That was just people the NHS could not practically do anything about. In 2019 some in that category would have died from covid, unidentified because there was no testing. This general class of death is actually normal. Not preventable.
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Post by expatr on Aug 19, 2023 10:08:13 GMT
colin Blair had 'two jabs' Prescott Why do you keep calling him two jabs? This is rather curious because the original phrase was 'two jags', based on him having two jaguar cars. I do not recollect this changing in general usage, though the wikipedia article now mentions it. I asked someone else interested in politics, who also does not recall this changing at the time. I see a 2005 version of the wiki page suggests this was a temporary alternative after an altercation, but that must imply it didnt catch on. So how come he has retrospectively become 'two jabs'? I assume this is a reference to the rather amusing time when a mulleted thug threw an egg in his face from about 2 foot and Prescott just turned round and decked him. |
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Post by Danny on Aug 19, 2023 10:11:23 GMT
But for anyone who is interested, Covid is only the 8th highest cause of death this year and it was 24th in the month of June 2023, the most recent for which the ONS has published data: I wonder just how many people actually die from incompetent treatment? This would cover every aspect, including delays in being seen, mistakes in choice of treatment, budgetary influences, staff shortages, straight mistakes or even malicious action. We might recall that the NHS added to the death toll from covid by sending infected people home to care homes to die, where they infected many others, and that it was eventually discovered placing people on ventilators too soon actually reduced their chances of survival. Then I recollect that even where a doctor follows best practice to the letter, giving a certain treatment is only their best recommendation and is likely, based on trials eidence, to be the wrong treatment for a minority.
So... where in order does medical error come in terms of deaths? Most of these cases would never be recorded as such. 10% of deaths doesnt sound unreasonable? How many people end up surviving but permananently harmed from such errors?
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Post by Danny on Aug 19, 2023 10:14:59 GMT
Surely the greater concern is how to stop them killing after they have been hired , with day to day procedures , trip wires and warning indicators . And fearless adherence to them by all levels of management. But that would mean some members of staff would have a permanent job simply double checking what all other staff were doing. And it would have to be all other staff to work, and it would have to be at a level of detail sufficient to spot slight anomalies. Probably getting two doctors to do the job of one to check on each other. Maybe you can see this would become a horrendous waste of resources, assuming deliberate murder is relatively rare? Better for those extra staff to just do normal patient treatment. |
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Post by jib on Aug 19, 2023 10:17:31 GMT
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Post by Danny on Aug 19, 2023 10:21:22 GMT
Not very fair to alec really: as has been pointed out on a number of occasions, you can’t rationally just compare Covid with other leading causes of death without making allowance for how Covid can be implicated in some of those other deaths. That cuts both ways however, people were listed as dying from covid if it had any part in their deaths. Ignoring that eg if they had not had cancer already, they would not have died from covid. Covid deaths were exaggerated. |
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Post by Danny on Aug 19, 2023 10:23:00 GMT
Why do you keep calling him two jabs? This is rather curious because the original phrase was 'two jags', based on him having two jaguar cars. I do not recollect this changing in general usage, though the wikipedia article now mentions it. I asked someone else interested in politics, who also does not recall this changing at the time. I see a 2005 version of the wiki page suggests this was a temporary alternative after an altercation, but that must imply it didnt catch on. So how come he has retrospectively become 'two jabs'? I assume this is a reference to the rather amusing time when a mulleted thug threw an egg in his face from about 2 foot and Prescott just turned round and decked him. Yes, but the changed nickname didnt catch on at the time. Its peculiar how it has been resurrected now. |
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Post by Danny on Aug 19, 2023 10:26:49 GMT
It's really a bit rich having a Lib Dem complaining about the state of the environment after the cuts they and their mates imposed. Its true Clegg and co utterly failed their voters and stated principles. But they didnt originate those policies, they simply rubber stamped conservative policies which had a very good chance of passing even had they not formed the coalition. The conservatives did far, far worse all by themselves in adopting brexit as a cause so as to achieve a majority to rule unassisted. That was a far greater sellout of the national interest, and they knew it. |
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Post by alec on Aug 19, 2023 10:26:50 GMT
pjw1961 - "That is complete nonsense alec; do give it a rest. It might not be the infection control arrangements you want to see, but they are the ones that the actual experts deem to be appropriate and proportionate. " No, it's not nonsense. There is a major problem with covid HAI's, which is compounded by NHS testing guidelines. The fatality rates of covid HAI's are well established facts from multiple healthcare systems, and the fact that some NHS trusts are advising symptomatic staff to return to work without covid tests if 'they feel able to' is a sure sign that the NHS is failing. You've rather made my point for me. Many in the medical and healthcare administration business are failing us, and we have taken several backward steps on infection control as part of the overreaction to covid protections.
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 19, 2023 10:27:03 GMT
Not very fair to alec really: as has been pointed out on a number of occasions, you can’t rationally just compare Covid with other leading causes of death without making allowance for how Covid can be implicated in some of those other deaths. That cuts both ways however, people were listed as dying from covid if it had any part in their deaths. Ignoring that eg if they had not had cancer already, they would not have died from covid. Covid deaths were exaggerated. Only partly so. Cancer might quite often, but how often a heart attack would might be something else. And Covid attacks so many things. How often would a stroke attack your lungs, kidneys, gut microbiome, immune system etc. etc. But yes, ideally you would consider all the interactions between different diseases to get the true picture. |
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Post by Danny on Aug 19, 2023 10:32:39 GMT
There is a major problem with covid HAI's, There certainly is, and not just covid. People love to drop initials into posts which have no indication what they mean. Googling I see, exclamationIndian exclamation: hai used to express grief, horror, regret, etc. "hai, hai, this boy is nothing but trouble and misfortune" Hai started with silk, and our early pieces were about experimenting with, and stretching, the possibilities of the fabric. Health Action International (HAI) is an independent non-profit organisation. ah...9 entries down you probably mean..."Healthcare-Associated Infections (HAIs) ·" Didnt they used to call them iatrogenic? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2023 10:34:46 GMT
Saw this on a tweet- Men: Football’s coming home!! It’s coming home!! IT’s coming!! Women, 60yrs later: … FFS I’ll get it myself. ⚽️💪🏃🏻♀️ To be fair the blokes don’t just have to concentrate of footy - there are big contracts to negotiate, shed-loads of money to manage plus super models to deal with (which, as I know, is not easy.) Actually, I wrote earlier about how impressive progress is women’s football has been, in terms of speed first (I though it might take another decade because England were so far behind the curve, and their previous (male) managers seemed very unimpressive to me but also in terms of quality. I read an interview with Alessia Russo (Arsenal…) and was amazed by the dedication and determination shown by so many very young school age girls to pursue excellence in a sport which, at the time, basically offered them very little in the way of a future in the game or financial rewards. The fact that the male hierarchy held them back, refusing to even allow them to play for decades! is utterly shameful. But sadly typical of course. The next step has to be equality of salaries. But how amazing will it it be if, after all the barren years since 1966, our women’s team manage to win both the European and World cups in just TWO, successive years? |
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Post by alec on Aug 19, 2023 10:34:50 GMT
@cafrew - very true.
Covid deaths stats are based on death certificates, so all of them have covid as the or a cause, so the death would not have happened without covid. The problem comes now from deaths where covid isn't tested for, and there is increasing evidence that hospitals are refusing to test patients, even where relatives have given a +ve LFT test.
I'm also interested now as I'm seeing doctors (named accounts) sharing emails from administrators asking whether they can identify "patients suitable for corridors", in August. This seems to happen every time we have a covid wave. And there is no flu.
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