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Post by graham on Oct 1, 2023 19:14:13 GMT
A very enjoyable, if at times nervy, few hours watching the Ryder Cup singles this afternoon. The US team fought back well since they were whitewashed in the opening foursomes on Friday, but the European team held on well in the end to win by a comfortable five point margin. The leaderboard had a lot of red on it at stages this afternoon but enough of it turned back to blue eventually. A colour change that politically I wouldn't normally relish. In Ryder Cup golf, it's OK, however! Talking of politics, which I rarely do, something occurred to me about this current Conference season. When before, if ever, has the Labour Conference taken place after the Tory one? The traditional order of play has always been, certainly in my lifetime, Liberals, Labour then Tories. I always thought there was an advantage in that order for the Tories. They sort of had the last word. Maybe this is a question for our resident political historians like jimjam, JamessE, pjw1961, Graham etc. Why the change this year too? The Guardian had a little piece explaining this. I would like to claim it is a master stroke by Labour but seemingly the reason is more mundane. Labour wanted to book the same venue in Liverpool two years running (not sure why) but that venue already had a booking for the 'traditional' dates that Labour first asked for and they could only get a later date meaning they would go last this time. They asked the Conservatives and Lib Dems whether they were ok with that and both said yes. I think it does carry a tiny advantage - you can react to what the others have said. I don't quite understand why other parties were consulted on this at all. At the end of the day no party has an inherent 'right' to hold the last conference! |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Oct 1, 2023 19:27:18 GMT
The Guardian had a little piece explaining this. I would like to claim it is a master stroke by Labour but seemingly the reason is more mundane. Labour wanted to book the same venue in Liverpool two years running (not sure why) but that venue already had a booking for the 'traditional' dates that Labour first asked for and they could only get a later date meaning they would go last this time. They asked the Conservatives and Lib Dems whether they were ok with that and both said yes. I think it does carry a tiny advantage - you can react to what the others have said. I don't quite understand why other parties were consulted on this at all. At the end of the day no party has an inherent 'right' to hold the last conference! I'm not sure why either, but they were. Courtesy I suppose. The Guardian journo commented that at least it showed the parties could agree on something!  |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Oct 1, 2023 19:28:28 GMT
It's gone very quiet in here ... š» I suppose having two threads open doesn't help. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2023 19:42:55 GMT
It's gone very quiet in here ... š» I suppose having two threads open doesn't help. Only one poster would assume that had the right to do so but Iām surprised by how many simply joined in. |
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Post by crossbat11 on Oct 1, 2023 19:55:24 GMT
It's gone very quiet in here ... š» I suppose having two threads open doesn't help.Ā It's all kicking off on Trev's special thread. Eight posts in eleven hours. 25% of them from the thread initiator. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2023 20:04:31 GMT
I don't quite understand why other parties were consulted on this at all. At the end of the day no party has an inherent 'right' to hold the last conference! I'm not sure why either, but they were. Courtesy I suppose. The Guardian journo commented that at least it showed the parties could agree on something! Since all parties want as much coverage as possible in the news media it would be in none of the major parties interests for them not to co-operate to prevent a clash of dates.
Even Laura K cannot simultaneously broadcast an interview with both Starmer and Sunak live from Liverpool and Manchester on the same Sunday morning.
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Post by wb61 on Oct 1, 2023 20:06:29 GMT
In my cups, and half time in the Rugby ( Tonga come on) I had a thought, perhaps incoherent, but we have had 13 years with the Conservatives the dominant party of government. Yet in that time we have seen more than one dominant economic philosophy leading policy. First classical economics of 1930's style austerity (in distinction from post war austerity which was an inflation control mechanism). Then UK nationalism almost isolationism to move from EU. Then, although not implemented at all a sort of British Peronist approach under Johnson. The Truss interlude was the start of an experiment in purist capitalism. The current PM seems to have no coherent philosophy in mind other than austerity but with taxes. All in all it gives the impression that the pursuit of power with no purpose has become the truth of British politics.
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Post by EmCat on Oct 1, 2023 20:19:02 GMT
I'm not sure why either, but they were. Courtesy I suppose. The Guardian journo commented that at least it showed the parties could agree on something! Since all parties want as much coverage as possible in the news media it would be in none of the major parties interests for them not to co-operate to prevent a clash of dates. Imagine the scenario... after months of fractious tirades, the major parties end up not speaking to each other outside of the debates chambers. And then Con, Lab, LD, SNP & PC all end up having their conferences at the same time. Newspapers and broadcasters are torn between covering their favoured side, and hence losing sales from those who supported other parties, or not covering any of them (Gone are the days when they had enough staff to cover them all at the same time), and thus hope not to lose any more sales than the gradual attrition that has been happening over the past decade or so. Most opt for the latter option, and stay away. And then OMRLP have their conference the following week, which then is covered by all outlets. A casual remark that is misconstrued results in a snap election, at which point the OMRLP suddenly find themselves in the spotlight as the general public latch on to them as the only party whose conference got any coverage. Winning a significant number of seats then makes them kingmakers for the next parliament. Which ends up with Lab, Con and LD agreeing to form a government with Lord Sutch as PM and an assortment of cabinet posts from all 3 parties (SNP are deliberately sidelined for cabinet posts with an announcement of another Indyref - possibly a tactical blunder that only a loony would suggest, but hey, the PM has to demonstrate they are living up to their name) Or maybe it's easier having the conferences on different dates...  |
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Post by graham on Oct 1, 2023 20:19:22 GMT
I'm not sure why either, but they were. Courtesy I suppose. The Guardian journo commented that at least it showed the parties could agree on something! Since all parties want as much coverage as possible in the news media it would be in none of the major parties interests for them not to co-operate to prevent a clash of dates.
Even Laura K cannot simultaneously broadcast an interview with both Starmer and Sunak live from Liverpool and Manchester on the same Sunday morning.
I do understand that but the Conferences appear to have been moved forward by a week or two compared with earlier years. In the past the Tory Conference tended to coincide with Thatcher's birthday - 13th October - but that has not happened for a while. |
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Oct 1, 2023 20:23:43 GMT
It's gone very quiet in here ... š» I suppose having two threads open doesn't help.
For example, the "Levelling up" cash for certain towns, selected by Whitehall and announced by Sunak, builds that in via the bureaucratic nonsense of "town boards", where "community groups" (undefined) will presumably (else what is the point of them) be able to veto spend that they don't like.
In my LA, the money has been awarded to Irvine - not North Ayrshire. Kilwinning is 1 mile north of Irvine and the "Three Towns" are 3 miles away. Economically and socially, they are essentially the same community - divided by loyalty to their Junior Football clubs, of course! - but will get nothing (as neither will the Tories).
Of course, this is pork-barrel politics - something that every party tends to do when they have the power to do it. However, sensible parties do so with knowledge and understanding of the localities involved. Being singularly lacking in "eptness", the Tories missed an open goal - just as Rangers did on Saturday.
An effective pork butcher would have specified that the town should have been Kilwinning - notorious for its support for the Orange Lodge, that UK Unionist team, and its more disreputable supporters - like those who brandished this at Ibrox -
Attachment Deleted
I understand the reference on the flag to be the emblem of the SS Panzer division responsible for Massacring 97 British POWS from the Royal Norfolk Regiment at Le Paradis in 1940. |
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Post by mercian on Oct 1, 2023 20:35:15 GMT
Since all parties want as much coverage as possible in the news media it would be in none of the major parties interests for them not to co-operate to prevent a clash of dates. Imagine the scenario... after months of fractious tirades, the major parties end up not speaking to each other outside of the debates chambers. And then Con, Lab, LD, SNP & PC all end up having their conferences at the same time. Newspapers and broadcasters are torn between covering their favoured side, and hence losing sales from those who supported other parties, or not covering any of them (Gone are the days when they had enough staff to cover them all at the same time), and thus hope not to lose any more sales than the gradual attrition that has been happening over the past decade or so. Most opt for the latter option, and stay away. And then OMRLP have their conference the following week, which then is covered by all outlets. A casual remark that is misconstrued results in a snap election, at which point the OMRLP suddenly find themselves in the spotlight as the general public latch on to them as the only party whose conference got any coverage. Winning a significant number of seats then makes them kingmakers for the next parliament. Which ends up with Lab, Con and LD agreeing to form a government with Lord Sutch as PM and an assortment of cabinet posts from all 3 parties (SNP are deliberately sidelined for cabinet posts with an announcement of another Indyref - possibly a tactical blunder that only a loony would suggest, but hey, the PM has to demonstrate they are living up to their name) Or maybe it's easier having the conferences on different dates... Perhaps I'd better stand for OMRLP next time after all. Still can't decide on an appropriate hat though. Maybe a jester's? Anyway, PEDANT ALERT Lord Sutch sadly passed away some years ago. Howling Lord Hope is the current leader. |
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Post by mercian on Oct 1, 2023 20:43:46 GMT
oldnatThat "town boards" idea seems ludicrous. Why not use the elected council rather than a group of (self-?)appointed people. There are so many things wrong with that idea, but I don't want to write a massive rambling post like some do. Luckily they seem to have decamped.
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Post by wb61 on Oct 1, 2023 20:46:20 GMT
Imagine the scenario... after months of fractious tirades, the major parties end up not speaking to each other outside of the debates chambers. And then Con, Lab, LD, SNP & PC all end up having their conferences at the same time. Newspapers and broadcasters are torn between covering their favoured side, and hence losing sales from those who supported other parties, or not covering any of them (Gone are the days when they had enough staff to cover them all at the same time), and thus hope not to lose any more sales than the gradual attrition that has been happening over the past decade or so. Most opt for the latter option, and stay away. And then OMRLP have their conference the following week, which then is covered by all outlets. A casual remark that is misconstrued results in a snap election, at which point the OMRLP suddenly find themselves in the spotlight as the general public latch on to them as the only party whose conference got any coverage. Winning a significant number of seats then makes them kingmakers for the next parliament. Which ends up with Lab, Con and LD agreeing to form a government with Lord Sutch as PM and an assortment of cabinet posts from all 3 parties (SNP are deliberately sidelined for cabinet posts with an announcement of another Indyref - possibly a tactical blunder that only a loony would suggest, but hey, the PM has to demonstrate they are living up to their name) Or maybe it's easier having the conferences on different dates...Ā Perhaps I'd better stand for OMRLP next time after all. Still can't decide on an appropriate hat though. Maybe a jester's? Anyway, PEDANT ALERT Lord Sutch sadly passed away some years ago. Howling Lord Hope is the current leader. It is well worth a read through the Wikipedia entry for Screaming Lord Sutch! |
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Post by wb61 on Oct 1, 2023 20:49:20 GMT
Alsa poor Tonga the Kava was insufficient
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Oct 1, 2023 20:50:24 GMT
oldnat That "town boards" idea seems ludicrous. Why not use the elected council rather than a group of (self-?)appointed people. There are so many things wrong with that idea, but I don't want to write a massive rambling post like some do. Luckily they seem to have decamped. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Oct 1, 2023 20:51:49 GMT
In my cups, and half time in the Rugby ( Tonga come on) I had a thought, perhaps incoherent, but we have had 13 years with the Conservatives the dominant party of government. Yet in that time we have seen more than one dominant economic philosophy leading policy. First classical economics of 1930's style austerity (in distinction from post war austerity which was an inflation control mechanism). Then UK nationalism almost isolationism to move from EU. Then, although not implemented at all a sort of British Peronist approach under Johnson. The Truss interlude was the start of an experiment in purist capitalism. The current PM seems to have no coherent philosophy in mind other than austerity but with taxes. All in all it gives the impression that the pursuit of power with no purpose has become the truth of British politics. Surely there was a completely consistent policy of austerity throughout, whatever else was happening? But the interesting thing is that whatever was claimed for it and whatever variations were tried, growth was supposed to be the saviour of the budget deficit and it singularly hasnt worked. I remember some time ago someone posted a research article which concluded that whatever any Uk government did, the state of the Uk economy always mirrored what the world economy was doing. The only question then is whether the current block of con managed to break that trend - for the worse! |
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Post by mercian on Oct 1, 2023 20:55:54 GMT
oldnat That "town boards" idea seems ludicrous. Why not use the elected council rather than a group of (self-?)appointed people. There are so many things wrong with that idea, but I don't want to write a massive rambling post like some do. Luckily they seem to have decamped. I don't think the one I'm thinking of has ceased exaggerated (written) posturing. And my definition of "camp" is of course the correct one - e.g. (from Merriam-Webster) " a place usually away from urban areas where tents or simple buildings (such as cabins) are erected for shelter or for temporary residence (as for laborers, prisoners, or vacationers)" |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,590
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Post by pjw1961 on Oct 1, 2023 20:58:35 GMT
Perhaps I'd better stand for OMRLP next time after all. Still can't decide on an appropriate hat though. Maybe a jester's? Anyway, PEDANT ALERT Lord Sutch sadly passed away some years ago. Howling Lord Hope is the current leader. Mercian, you will be delighted to know that you beat me to it this time on the pedantry. Keep up the good work |
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Post by wb61 on Oct 1, 2023 20:59:32 GMT
And my definition of "camp" is of course the correct one - e.g. (from Merriam-Webster) " a place usually away from urban areas where tents or simple buildings (such as cabins) are erected for shelter or for temporary residence (as for laborers, prisoners, or vacationers)"[/quote]
Why don't you use a proper dictionary like the greater Oxford English dictionary?
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,590
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Post by pjw1961 on Oct 1, 2023 21:02:43 GMT
oldnat That "town boards" idea seems ludicrous. Why not use the elected council rather than a group of (self-?)appointed people. There are so many things wrong with that idea, but I don't want to write a massive rambling post like some do. Luckily they seem to have decamped. The public have a horrible tendency to elect non-Conservatives onto councils. I'm sure it will be possible to ensure that "town boards" are selected from a much better class of people - the local Conservative and Unionist association for example. |
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Post by mercian on Oct 1, 2023 21:04:51 GMT
As it's quiet, why not have an early look at this week's local by-elections? vote-2012.proboards.com/thread/17581/local-council-elections-october-2023?page=1Those guys are pretty on the ball - a lot of local activists from all parties with really good knowledge. Anyway - 4th October HARINGEY LBC; South Tottenham (Lab resigned) Should be an easy hold HARINGEY LBC; White Hart Lane (Lab resigned) Ditto, but what's going on in Haringey? 5th October LAMBETH LBC; Vauxhall (Lab died) Again easy hold. TAMWORTH DC; Amington (Lab resigned) This might be closer, Tory from 2002 apart from 2 years |
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Post by mercian on Oct 1, 2023 21:07:12 GMT
And my definition of "camp" is of course the correct one - e.g. (from Merriam-Webster) " a place usually away from urban areas where tents or simple buildings (such as cabins) are erected for shelter or for temporary residence (as for laborers, prisoners, or vacationers)" Why don't you use a proper dictionary like the greater Oxford English dictionary?[/quote] wb61 Because the one I used was the first that came up in a search engine, why do you think? |
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Post by mercian on Oct 1, 2023 21:14:10 GMT
oldnat That "town boards" idea seems ludicrous. Why not use the elected council rather than a group of (self-?)appointed people. There are so many things wrong with that idea, but I don't want to write a massive rambling post like some do. Luckily they seem to have decamped. The public have a horrible tendency to elect non-Conservatives onto councils. I'm sure it will be possible to ensure that "town boards" are selected from a much better class of people - the local Conservative and Unionist association for example. That was one of the things that occurred to me. Also, oldnat's mention of "community groups" raised a warning flag. In England at any rate, this is usually used by politicians as a euphemism for immigrant ghettoes. It would be interesting to see oldnat's source. |
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Post by Rafwan on Oct 1, 2023 21:22:50 GMT
And my definition of "camp" is of course the correct one - e.g. (from Merriam-Webster) " a place usually away from urban areas where tents or simple buildings (such as cabins) are erected for shelter or for temporary residence (as for laborers, prisoners, or vacationers)" āWhy don't you use a proper dictionary like the greater Oxford English dictionary?ā Hear, hear! Though the two-volume Shorter will do just fine. No need to hump round the full twenty volumes. |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,590
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Post by pjw1961 on Oct 1, 2023 21:35:36 GMT
As it's quiet, why not have an early look at this week's local by-elections? vote-2012.proboards.com/thread/17581/local-council-elections-october-2023?page=1Those guys are pretty on the ball - a lot of local activists from all parties with really good knowledge. Anyway - 4th October HARINGEY LBC; South Tottenham (Lab resigned) Should be an easy hold HARINGEY LBC; White Hart Lane (Lab resigned) Ditto, but what's going on in Haringey?5th October LAMBETH LBC; Vauxhall (Lab died) Again easy hold. TAMWORTH DC; Amington (Lab resigned) This might be closer, Tory from 2002 apart from 2 years Some surprisingly good football it would seem: 1 Manchester City P 7 W 6 D 0 L 1 Pts 18 2 Tottenham Hotspur P 7 W 5 D 2 L 0 Pts 17 |
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Post by mercian on Oct 1, 2023 21:39:24 GMT
pjw1961Harry Kane was obviously holding them back.
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Oct 1, 2023 21:47:21 GMT
The public have a horrible tendency to elect non-Conservatives onto councils. I'm sure it will be possible to ensure that "town boards" are selected from a much better class of people - the local Conservative and Unionist association for example. That was one of the things that occurred to me. Also, oldnat 's mention of "community groups" raised a warning flag. In England at any rate, this is usually used by politicians as a euphemism for immigrant ghettoes. It would be interesting to see oldnat 's source.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-66975560
'The UK government plan involves setting up a town board, bringing together community leaders, employers and local authorities, to decide on spending priorities. The prime minister added the money would put funding "in the hands of local people" adding "that is how we level up."'
It would appear that Sunak is unaware that, throughout the UK, councils are elected by local people and, in Scotland, due to voting by STV, the councils are actually representative of the local people.
Naturally, Sunak has given no details as to how these community leaders and employers are to be identified, but one should, perhaps note, that the largest employers in Irvine are North Ayrshire Council (its HQ is there) and NHS Scotland (via Ayrshire Central Hospital) as well as Police Scotland (Divisional HQ) and Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. There are others, of course, in the private sector including engineering, life sciences, advanced manufacturing and energy.
As to "community leaders" in North Ayrshire (of which I presume Sunak is profoundly ignorant) there are well established "Locality Planning Groups" which involve those who actually work for their communities, and who already have input to the council on matters that affect them.
North Ayrshire tends to alternate between SNP and Labour minority administrations but, as they both have largely identical approaches, it really doesn't matter which of them has bragging rights at selecting the Provost!
I would guess, however, that (if the announcement comes to anything before the election - which I doubt) that Whitehall would exclude all public sector employers and "unwelcome" community leaders in their extravagantly centralised guidance. |
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Post by mercian on Oct 1, 2023 22:11:50 GMT
That was one of the things that occurred to me. Also, oldnat 's mention of "community groups" raised a warning flag. In England at any rate, this is usually used by politicians as a euphemism for immigrant ghettoes. It would be interesting to see oldnat 's source.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-66975560
'The UK government plan involves setting up a town board, bringing together community leaders, employers and local authorities, to decide on spending priorities. The prime minister added the money would put funding "in the hands of local people" adding "that is how we level up."'
It would appear that Sunak is unaware that, throughout the UK, councils are elected by local people and, in Scotland, due to voting by STV, the councils are actually representative of the local people.
Naturally, Sunak has given no details as to how these community leaders and employers are to be identified, but one should, perhaps note, that the largest employers in Irvine are North Ayrshire Council (its HQ is there) and NHS Scotland (via Ayrshire Central Hospital) as well as Police Scotland (Divisional HQ) and Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. There are others, of course, in the private sector including engineering, life sciences, advanced manufacturing and energy.
As to "community leaders" in North Ayrshire (of which I presume Sunak is profoundly ignorant) there are well established "Locality Planning Groups" which involve those who actually work for their communities, and who already have input to the council on matters that affect them.
North Ayrshire tends to alternate between SNP and Labour minority administrations but, as they both have largely identical approaches, it really doesn't matter which of them has bragging rights at selecting the Provost!
I would guess, however, that (if the announcement comes to anything before the election - which I doubt) that Whitehall would exclude all public sector employers and "unwelcome" community leaders in their extravagantly centralised guidance.Thanks for that. As an Englishman I have no idea who my "community leader" is. For some communities it might be their Rabbi or Imam but I've only ever seen our local vicar when my grandsons were baptised. The nearest I could guess would be one of my local councillors who is very energetic in his efforts locally. He's appears to be of West Indian or African heritage and seems to be a very good chap. He's the only councillor for my area who has ever done anything visible outside of election time. So I go back to why not just leave it to elected rather than appointed people? Of course where there already local groups that are working well as in the case you point out, that's different. This initiative should not involve some new arbitrarily-appointed body. very undemocratic. |
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Post by peterbell on Oct 1, 2023 22:35:34 GMT
Steve: "Even after Brexit babies are allowed to visit."Your discussion with Rafwan struck a chord with me. As I type, the sun is just setting behind the mountains across the bay. It's been 30 degrees today, but with a pleasant breeze to make things comfortable. The sea is still 25 degrees and our evening swim was idyllic. As the sky takes on post-sunset colouring of peach and turquoise, I'm enjoying my first drink of the day, a modest glass of a local-ish red from Utiel-Requena. In short, the end to another idyllic retirement day in Spain. Oh to be here all the time! But... as Rafwan hints, what would be a no-brainer in the absence of kids and grandkids becomes a lot more complicated when family responsibilities intervene. The result, for us, is running a two-home set-up with a further division of UK time between where we live and the city where our two sons and three grandchildren live. It actually works pretty well, and means the 90 day rule isn't the problem it would be if this was our main home. So I think Rafwan has a point, and if you can arrange things so that you have a UK pied-a-terre near family, as well as your main home in Spain, that will give you the flexibility you might find you need. From a political point of view, the ability to compare the rate of progress here and in the UK is very instructive. I get the feeling some of the posters here who are most complacent about post-brexit Britain don't get out (of the country) much and so don't realise just how far and fast we're falling behind. Currently on vacation in the Costa Del Sol and would totally concur with Somerjohn. Visited Estepona yesterday and was very impressed with the seafront, pedestrianised, excellent attractive promenade with frequent seating and metallic sunshades. This is just one example but we have observed many more. Excellent flower arrangements all over the place in Puerto Banus where we are staying. In Newcastle, the flower beds and displays are mainly empty due to shortage of cash |
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Dave
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... I'm dreaming dreams, I'm scheming schemes, I'm building castles high ..
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Post by Dave on Oct 1, 2023 22:52:46 GMT
I suppose having two threads open doesn't help.Ā It's all kicking off on Trev's special thread. Eight posts in eleven hours. 25% of them from the thread initiator. Will he give it up as a bad job and come back on this one? Or will his pride win out and heāll not darken this threadās door again? I know which of those two options Iām rooting for. š |
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