steve
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Post by steve on Aug 14, 2023 14:44:15 GMT
Rafwan No one said Corbyn went on holiday for two weeks in the middle of the referendum campaign. It was one week or what Corbyn himself described as a "long weekend" p. That's a matter of record. birdseye I consider having our rights to vote and our freedom of movement and ludicrous consequences of loss of freedom of movement for goods and businesses pretty disastrous. Estimates are that in addition to our personal freedoms stolen it's cost the UK 4% of GDP and added 3% to inflation . Oddly enough I can't recall the brexitanians having the slogan vote leave it won't cause total economic collapse as a rallying call. Nope they just spouted a pack of lies instead.
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Mr Poppy
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Teaching assistant and now your elected PM
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Post by Mr Poppy on Aug 14, 2023 14:52:03 GMT
Article covering some of the history of BMA: If the NHS is to recover, we have to stop treating doctors as saintsMore strikes in the face of a crumbling NHS shows the British Medical Association is a self-serving union"For these disputes are led by a self-serving body ruthlessly exploitative of public affection for its members in its frequent battles against the despised denizens of Westminster"
"Aneurin Bevan, who saw doctors’ leaders as “politically poisonous” activists but infamously had to “stuff their mouths with gold” to win them over."
and covers some of the Blair-Brown era: "One negotiator of the 2004 contract for general practitioners later bragged they won such a great deal that salaries soared 60 per cent over the next three years"
inews.co.uk/opinion/the-nhs-recover-stop-doctors-saints-2544018# |
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Post by somerjohn on Aug 14, 2023 15:08:04 GMT
Birdseye" "Lots of mentions on here of "disastrous" consequences of brexit but what are they? Seems to me that the negatives are being wildly overstated. Not that there arent negatives but we arent in the position of economic collapse or anywhere near it as the dire descriptions suggest."As Wile E Coyote might have smugly said as he cycled fresh air prior to his great fall, "we aren't in the position of a catastrophic fall or anywhere near it as the dire descriptions suggest." In other words, the cumulative effects of brexit and misgovernment take time to be become obvious to the casual observer. Especially if that observer is either cushioned from personal effects by good fortune (eg rich, or a mortgage-paid-off pensioner), or blinded by cognitive dissonance. Or both. For a summary of the gathering storm, read this: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/aug/13/uk-stop-kidding-ourselves-rich-nation-gone-bust |
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 14, 2023 15:13:08 GMT
somerjohn
You beat me to the Will Hutton Observer article!
A devastating analysis of the true state of the British economy.
It punctures many a puffed up complacent delusion.
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Post by leftieliberal on Aug 14, 2023 15:22:29 GMT
I was responding to Lakeland Lass quoting a tweet that said exactly that "While the British government weaponises public toilets as part of its anti-trans political agenda, its own consultation about public toilet provision reveals that a vast majority of people support non-gendered public toilets." |
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Post by somerjohn on Aug 14, 2023 15:28:39 GMT
CB11: "A devastating analysis of the true state of the British economy."
Yup. As Hutton points out, we've been living well beyond our means. While maxing the overdraft and selling off assets can keep the illusion of normality going for a while, when creditors realise the position, things tend to fall apart very quickly.
I only hope that the blame ends up where it belongs, ie the crunch comes before rather than after the change of government.
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Post by mercian on Aug 14, 2023 15:37:00 GMT
As people seemed to enjoy yesterday's quiz here's another this time theme tunes I got 17 mostly the older ones and of course the police shows☺ youtu.be/3QfyIt-l5UU6, though I recognized a few more but just couldn't place them. |
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Post by Rafwan on Aug 14, 2023 15:37:05 GMT
Rafwan No one said Corbyn went on holiday for two weeks in the middle of the referendum campaign. It was one week or what Corbyn himself described as a "long weekend" p. That's a matter of record. ... Well ... I heard her say this with my own two ears (and could scarcely believe it!). It was however widely reported the following day, see. for example, fifth paragraph in this Guardian article - link . www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/23/jo-swinson-rules-out-lib-dem-pact-with-labour-under-jeremy-corbynThe rest of the article illustrates the terms and tone of her rancid hostility and makes clear who was blocking any cross-party action to defeat that dreadful Tory government. Can you point me to the 'matter of record' you invoke? |
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 14, 2023 15:39:58 GMT
Rafwan No one said Corbyn went on holiday for two weeks in the middle of the referendum campaign. It was one week or what Corbyn himself described as a "long weekend" p. That's a matter of record. birdseye I consider having our rights to vote and our freedom of movement and ludicrous consequences of loss of freedom of movement for goods and businesses pretty disastrous. Estimates are that in addition to our personal freedoms stolen it's cost the UK 4% of GDP and added 3% to inflation . Oddly enough I can't recall the brexitanians having the slogan vote leave it won't cause total economic collapse as a rallying call. Nope they just spouted a pack of lies instead. colin I've just come across your earlier reply to me. I fear you're parodying other posters again in order to mock their views. I wasn't getting into a discussion about the the details of the current dispute between the BMA and the Government over the pay and employment conditions of their members, particularly the junior doctors and consultants, I was instead replying specifically to you describing the BMA as a "fucking disgrace". Whether you think my opinions about the incalculable social value of doctors and consultants are "banal" and "armchair rhetoric" matters not a jot to me. I stand by everything I said in the BMA's defence against your abuse. Now, of course, pay and conditions have to be negotiated between the government and the BMA in the context of affordability and economic realism, but the BMA are perfectly entitled to prosecute the dispute aggressively on behalf of their members and to dispute the governments interpretations of those two factors . It is the membership who are driving the dispute and it's risible to suggest that they are being dragooned into industrial action by a disreputable BMA leadership. It would appear, by the way, that the BMA are not just in step with their members but with most of the public too who share their disdain and anger towards a largely discredited government that has dragged the NHS to its knees. The Scottish and Welsh governments, still partially hamstrung on the NHS by the central Westminster government, at least still have the BMA's trust in terms of their intentions. The dispute is taking a different course in those two countries accordingly. Your knee-jerk defence of the Tory Government is blinkering your view again The dispute in England appears to be not just about pay but also about the future of the NHS and is being prosecuted on behalf of the patients in that respect. On all our behalves in other words. |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 14, 2023 15:43:38 GMT
I loathe conservative values - at heart they are morally bankrupt, always placing money above people. If anyone deserves a large pay rise it is doctors. How did you feel about these "values" ?:- www.bmj.com/content/340/bmj.c1449I agree with the BMA. The crisis spawned by the parasitic City of London should not have been paid for by workers who had nothing to do with its creation. |
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Post by mercian on Aug 14, 2023 15:54:22 GMT
Lots of mentions on here of "disastrous" consequences of brexit but what are they? Seems to me that the negatives are being wildly overstated. Not that there arent negatives but we arent in the position of economic collapse or anywhere near it as the dire descriptions suggest. You beat me to it. Also people are going on about Johnson's 'disastrous' deal but I remember that Barnier said at one point that he had been given instructions on the agreement to be made and couldn't change them. |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Aug 14, 2023 16:09:15 GMT
Labour lead up two
@redfieldwilton
Labour leads by 20% nationally.
Westminster VI (13 August):
Labour 48%
Conservative 28%
Liberal Democrat 10%
Reform UK 5%
Green 4%
Scottish National Party 4%
Other 0%
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 14, 2023 16:13:09 GMT
Dave Odd that because despite the fact Labour elected election loser Corbyn You’re not alone in dismissing Corbyn for being a loser, PJ did it too a few weeks ago… I am not uniquely dissing Corbyn btw, he is just one is a long line of Labour losers from all wings of the Party. …but I’m not sure it’s such a great idea. Partly because you support a party that usually loses GEs, but you do not seem to find this an impediment. Similarly PJ’s favourite leader he said was Miliband, who was also a loser. Even more, both you and PJ have both stood for and lost elections yourselves. However, wouldn’t want to consider this grounds to dismiss either of you. Indeed if either of you happened to be standing in my ward, I would probably break my usual habit and actually get off my arse to vote for you. Not because I necessarily agree with all your policies, but have gotten to know you both online at least a bit and would rather have you two in the LDs or Labour than some of the other buggers. Not that my vote might make much diff., but still… (Assuming you would want my vote, though if you were both standing in the same ward, choosing between you might be a bit tricky. Might need to organise a hustings…) To respond to a couple of points: (a) I would have happily taken anyone's vote, no questions asked! (b) While happy to confirm I was personally a loser, I was standing in a ward that I was very unlikely to win short of an outright landslide, so no worries. Most of my campaigning was in target wards and Labour did well in those. In fact Braintree had Labour's best result in the entire eastern region, which is why Starmer chose to visit to make a national announcement. I think Steve was in the same position, showing the flag in a no hope ward, while his party did very well elsewhere. That's a bit different to Miliband, Corbyn, Kinnock, Foot, etc, losing elections. (c) The sad truth is that the last time Labour won an election on a leftish agenda was 1974 - almost half a century ago. Blair is the only Labour leader to win an election since, although it seems that Starmer may get over the line. They are the two most right-wing leaders Labour has had in that period. I see an electoral lesson in that - not one I personally like and clearly not one that appeals to many on this site - but it seems pretty daft to ignore it. Having said that, Starmer is no Blair in terms of either personal appeal or political astuteness (but then Sunak is also inferior to Major in every respect). |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 14, 2023 16:22:40 GMT
You’re not alone in dismissing Corbyn for being a loser, PJ did it too a few weeks ago… …but I’m not sure it’s such a great idea. Partly because you support a party that usually loses GEs, but you do not seem to find this an impediment. Similarly PJ’s favourite leader he said was Miliband, who was also a loser. Even more, both you and PJ have both stood for and lost elections yourselves. However, wouldn’t want to consider this grounds to dismiss either of you. Indeed if either of you happened to be standing in my ward, I would probably break my usual habit and actually get off my arse to vote for you. Not because I necessarily agree with all your policies, but have gotten to know you both online at least a bit and would rather have you two in the LDs or Labour than some of the other buggers. Not that my vote might make much diff., but still… (Assuming you would want my vote, though if you were both standing in the same ward, choosing between you might be a bit tricky. Might need to organise a hustings…) To respond to a couple of points: (a) I would have happily taken anyone's vote, no questions asked! (b) While happy to confirm I was personally a loser, I was standing in a ward that I was very unlikely to win short of an outright landslide, so no worries. Most of my campaigning was in target wards and Labour did well in those. In fact Braintree had Labour's best result in the entire eastern region, which is why Starmer chose to visit to make a national announcement. I think Steve was in the same position, showing the flag in a no hope ward, while his party did very well elsewhere. That's a bit different to Miliband, Corbyn, Kinnock, Foot, etc, losing elections. (c) The sad truth is that the last time Labour won an election on a leftish agenda was 1974 - almost half a century ago. Blair is the only Labour leader to win an election since, although it seems that Starmer may get over the line. They are the two most right-wing leaders Labour has had in that period. I see an electoral lesson in that - not one I personally like and clearly not one that appeals to many on this site - but it seems pretty daft to ignore it. Having said that, Starmer is no Blair in terms of either personal appeal or political astuteness (but then Sunak is also inferior to Major in every respect). Ah well PJ, you just said “loser”, you didn’t say anything about mitigating circumstances (which strangely don’t seem to apply when the left lose after the right in the party shaft them, or when the right win after being gifted a Tory meltdown). Starmer wasn’t doing so well till the Tory meltdown over partygate and Truss. The lesson is the right only win after a Tory meltdown and the Left got close with a more centre left manifesto. (And the Tories had to change leader and shift left in response). If only the right in the party hadn’t opposed them… |
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 14, 2023 16:35:23 GMT
Rafwan You're right Swinson did say two weeks which was wrong it was around a week. Some would argue that Corbyn's refusal to share any platform with any other remain supporting party and his failure to engage beyond his comfort zone meant that it didn't really matter how long he took away from a campaign that frankly he was only giving lip service to in the first place. This is what Phil Wilson , Labour mp for sedgefield said about Corbyn at the time. Phil Wilson, chaired the Labour In For Britain parliamentary group, said the Labour leader should resign for failing to provide direction and “lead from the front” during the referendum campaign. Writing in the Guardian, Wilson said: “It was clear last summer that Jeremy was only ever partially interested in keeping Britain in Europe and an honourable leader would bear the responsibility for the failure to persuade Labour voters to vote remain.” He said: “He himself issued a note to all MPs on 17 September 2015 telling them that Labour would campaign to remain in the European Union. And yet he decided to go on holiday in the middle of the campaign. Did not visit the Labour heartlands of the north-east and raised esoteric issues such as TTIP which had no resonance on the doorstep.” Wilson said the “greatest betrayal and final straw” for him and many colleagues was evidence handed over by “unimpeachably neutral Labour in [for Britain] staff” that Corbyn’s office – “for which he must take full responsibility, consistently attempted to weaken and sabotage the Labour remain campaign. For example, they resisted all polling and focus group evidence on message and tone, raised no campaign finance, failed to engage with the campaign delivery and deliberately weakened and damaged the argument Labour sought to make.” I entirely agree with Wilson in his assessment.
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 14, 2023 16:44:20 GMT
Estimates are that in addition to our personal freedoms stolen it's cost the UK 4% of GDP and added 3% to inflation . Well the OBR said it would cost 4% in the long term. If you believe the OBR, who forecast in November the economy would shrink a couple percent, only it didn’t go like they said and now they have changed their forecast Meanwhile you have the countries in the EU who HAVE gone into recession, which seems to get very little mention… |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2023 16:54:05 GMT
colin . Your knee-jerk defence of the Tory Government is blinkering your view again The dispute in England appears to be not just about pay but also about the future of the NHS and is being prosecuted on behalf of the patients in that respect. On all our behalves in other words. I think the Tory Government have not handled it well. I think the BM A is a money grubbing disgrace.And always has been. I think the idea that it is acting "on behalf of patients" is a sick joke. |
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Post by jib on Aug 14, 2023 16:54:47 GMT
Birdseye" "Lots of mentions on here of "disastrous" consequences of brexit but what are they? Seems to me that the negatives are being wildly overstated. Not that there arent negatives but we arent in the position of economic collapse or anywhere near it as the dire descriptions suggest."As Wile E Coyote might have smugly said as he cycled fresh air prior to his great fall, "we aren't in the position of a catastrophic fall or anywhere near it as the dire descriptions suggest." In other words, the cumulative effects of brexit and misgovernment take time to be become obvious to the casual observer. Especially if that observer is either cushioned from personal effects by good fortune (eg rich, or a mortgage-paid-off pensioner), or blinded by cognitive dissonance. Or both. For a summary of the gathering storm, read this: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/aug/13/uk-stop-kidding-ourselves-rich-nation-gone-bustThe decline of the UK to the apparently hollowed out shell described in that article happened whilst we were in the EU. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 14, 2023 17:02:39 GMT
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Mr Poppy
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Teaching assistant and now your elected PM
Posts: 3,774
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Post by Mr Poppy on Aug 14, 2023 17:05:26 GMT
Estimates are that in addition to our personal freedoms stolen it's cost the UK 4% of GDP and added 3% to inflation . Well the OBR said it would cost 4% in the long term. If you believe the OBR, who forecast in November the economy would shrink a couple percent, only it didn’t go like they said and now they have changed their forecast Meanwhile you have the countries in the EU who HAVE gone into recession, which seems to get very little mention… but, but, but the Guardian had a story saying some cheese chappy had lost some trade, before selling his business for a handsome profit and noting UK domestic cheese businesses have increased domestic sales "Indeed, cheesemongers and delis that only import small amounts of European cheeses have found the new red tape and costs discouraging, leading them to expand their stocks of British varieties." www.specialityfoodmagazine.com/food-and-drink/british-cheese-sector-2023Lexit is working OK pour moi and lots of folks. Thank you for pointing out the OBR info and current facts (noting UK's high use of nat.gas and lack of previous investment in Energy meant we were hit pretty hard from the European reliance on Russian gas). Of course if people want to Rejoin then they can do something about it.. or just 'carry on moaning'. Whatever the cost of Brexit, which was dragged out by Remain MPs in HoC'17-19, then it was front loaded and businesses have adjusted (still a few adjustments pending). Supply chains aren't going to suddenly return to pre 2016/2020 but if we did Rejoin we'd unlikely get the vetoes we once had and the ££ annual fee will be much higher. Bon Chance to Rejoiners with the Rejoin campaign, if they ever get around to getting it going.. I'm a little disappointed we haven't used our freedoms as extensively as we could and where we have (eg unshackling from EU's draconian finance rules, joining CPTPP, etc) we've taken longer than we should have. Anyway, the main parties want to "Make Brexit Work" and if people feel strongly about Rejoin then they can of course vote for a party that wants to Rejoin (such as the perhaps confusingly named 'Rejoin.EU' party) therejoineuparty.com |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,721
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 14, 2023 17:08:56 GMT
Lots of mentions on here of "disastrous" consequences of brexit but what are they? Seems to me that the negatives are being wildly overstated. Not that there arent negatives but we arent in the position of economic collapse or anywhere near it as the dire descriptions suggest. Kinda depends. E.g. if your business exports a lot to the EU, or you’re a musician wanting to tour round the EU, then it can be pretty bad. On the other hand a plumber who had been seeing his earnings hammered by foreign competition might be more positive. Trade with the EU is only about 8% of GDP and many people might find that the impact of leaving the EU is dwarfed by things like the big hike in energy and food prices since the war, and before that the hikes in energy and rent and property, and suppression of wages etc. that had been going on for years due to privatisations and leaving things too much to the market etc. Part of the issue is that whether in or out of the EU, trade arrangements lock in quite a lot of right-wing economics, limiting the power of the state to invest. This is why the US ditched some of those regs, in order to allow more green funding, to the initial annoyance of the EU but they are following suit now it seems. The green issue is too pressing to pander to right-wing anti-state economic restrictions |
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Mr Poppy
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Teaching assistant and now your elected PM
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Post by Mr Poppy on Aug 14, 2023 17:12:12 GMT
R&W haven't bothered with 'changes' this week but after the 'small boats week' shambles last week then I'm very surprised to see RUK 5% (-3) and
and
One poll caveat of course and still probably 15mths or so to GE'24. The 'bar' of expectations is set very low.. possibly some decent upside IF/when CON can start delivering on the People's Priorities (not all of which are fully within their control but will be 'conflated' as the fault of the incumbent HMG as per polling showing incumbent govts VI has dropped in most polities)
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Post by Rafwan on Aug 14, 2023 17:12:19 GMT
steveWell, as Mandy Rice-Davies once said, he would, wouldn't he. The great majority of the PLP hated Corbyn because, I think, he had been chosen over their heads. I urge you to read those remarks again carefully. They are full of overblown rhetoric, falsehood (the clear majority of Labour voters DID vote to remain, and there was no "holiday") and rather nasty, self-indulgent factional tittle-tattle (of the sort so systematically exposed in the later Forde report). Where, oh where, is this elusive "matter of record"!!
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 14, 2023 17:14:39 GMT
c-a-r-f-r-e-wThere are no countries in the European union with smaller economies than prior to covid. The U.K. does. Of course there's variation between member states but the eurozone's 20 members are expected to grow by 1.1% on average and 1.6% next year. By comparison, the UK economy is expected to be weaker, with growth of 0.25% expected this year and 1% in 2024, according to the Bank of England.
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Aug 14, 2023 17:18:12 GMT
There has been a narrative from some sections that the Sanctions against Russia has damaged the countries carrying out the Sanctions more than Russia It appears the Russian economy is in trouble amp.theguardian.com/business/2023/aug/14/rouble-falls-to-16-month-low-dollar-russian-exports-collapse-war-ukraine-russia-economy'Russia’s central bank has announced it will hold an extraordinary meeting on Tuesday to discuss the level of its key interest rate after the rouble fell to its weakest point in almost 17 months. The currency has been steadily losing value since the beginning of the year and slid past the psychologically important level of 100 to the dollar on Monday morning' I |
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Mr Poppy
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Teaching assistant and now your elected PM
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Post by Mr Poppy on Aug 14, 2023 17:23:02 GMT
WRT to 'populist' polling that is ignored by the main UK wide parties then (re)nationalisations are popular but even LAB have moved away from those and now have 'Tory' policies:
Most Britons believe that trains, water and energy should sit within the public sectoryougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/10/19/most-britons-believe-trains-water-and-energy-shoulMy 2c is a 'nuanced' view that is realistic to the 'cake-ism' aspects (eg what would happen to the private sector debt) and cautious about militant trader unions. So I'd be in: "One in five Britons (20%) back a hybrid system, with ownership being shared between the private and public sector."Are Greens offering (re)nationalisations? Seems to be a huge gap in the VI/votes market for an LoC party (in England at least). |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 14, 2023 17:23:30 GMT
c-a-r-f-r-e-w There are no countries in the European union with smaller economies than prior to covid. The U.K. does. Of course there's variation between member states but the eurozone's 20 members are expected to grow by 1.1% on average and 1.6% next year. By comparison, the UK economy is expected to be weaker, with growth of 0.25% expected this year and 1% in 2024, according to the Bank of England. I wasn’t putting forward an argument for or against Brexit Steve, because I don’t have one! I was more about querying the reliability of the OBR. But it’s an idea when comparing, to consider the positives and negatives, not just one side. Even if our economy is smaller, it could be other rubbish economic policy rather than Brexit. But it’s not hard to see how leaving the EU, by introducing some trade frictions, might hit GDP somewhat. This is the problem with trade deals. They force countries to accept some right-wing economics they don’t necessarily want or need - like restrictions on the state, restricting lefty stuff - to get other stuff they do need like reduced trade frictions. As for the forecasts, well we will see!… |
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Post by Rafwan on Aug 14, 2023 17:23:52 GMT
And pjw1961, do not give up hope for the left! We need you!!! |
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 14, 2023 17:24:24 GMT
Rafwan Are you seriously saying Corbyn didn't take a holiday he said he did himself although he seemed to think calling it a long weekend made it somehow different. The records show that there were around five days between Corbyn making any public announcements. You're not daft look it up yourself if you don't accept it. On 8th May 2016, an article in The Times stated that the Labour leader was intending to take “almost a week off” during the campaign. We can look at media appearances by Jeremy Corbyn MP to find an upper bound for this holiday. According to Anthony Masters a full fact contributor. On 27th May, The Guardian interviewed the Labour leader about the UK’s membership of the European Union, talking about Labour’s campaign and social media presence. According to Anthony Masters at Full fact On 2nd June, the Financial Times reported a speech by Jeremy Corbyn, which criticised Treasury forecasts and made the case for a ‘social Europe’. There are no reports of any activities between these dates and these are the only actions reported on those dates. It looks like a holiday in the middle of the referendum campaign to me. Swinson exaggerated the length not the fact it happened.
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Post by pete on Aug 14, 2023 17:26:25 GMT
"They are-unashamedly anti Government/Tory" - Why do you think that might be? Because they are not LOC. When Justin Webb, asked whether the BMA might consider a comparable deal to the one in Scotland where they had had called off their strike , Laurenson said -"“No, because the governments are very different”. Asked again on the Today programme, if “You would accept the kind of deal that your Scottish members are thinking of accepting?”, Laurenson said the union would't because "the governments are very different. So the Scottish Government, there’s a basis to work forwards and have a relationship and a working relationship to negotiate in the future. The Government that we have today are hell bent on using the rigged, independent pay review bodies.” Not sure what he's said wrong here? He's given an honest appraisal saying that in future they'll be able to sit down with the Scottish gov and negotiate where as with the Tory that's not happening. In Tory land its only acceptable to agree with everything they want. Not only the most useless grifting government ever also the most childish. |
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