Dave
Member
... I'm dreaming dreams, I'm scheming schemes, I'm building castles high ..
Posts: 818
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Post by Dave on Jul 17, 2023 18:31:01 GMT
I am so sorry to hear that. I really hope you stay (or at least pop in at times when events dictate, eg, by-elections, the forthcoming GE). Should you decide to leave, it woud be a sad loss for UKPR2 and I really hope you reconsider. I will advise, if that's the right word that you can always block the members that post lot of this stuff. I will, once again, also remind members that I have repeatedly asked that posts on covid are largely posted in the relevant thread in the "Issue Specific" room. (and yes, that last bit was sort of an "Admin" post)... Hello Mark how do I block please, I noted that last post from Alec as I hoped he would have taken note of you, his God Complex along with his an Danny's incessant posting on COVID has driven me to avoid the site for weeks sometimes. I need them gone. Sorry to be so intolerant but there are limits I don’t need them gone. I’d liked them stopped. Alex’s post above the one I’m quoting was as as someone said a huge ‘fuck you’ to the board. Mark - you’re a good man but you took on this role and I thank you for that but part of your role surely, is to stop this crap that Danny, and I have to say even more so, Alec pulls. Please Mark, this needs dealing with. |
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Post by alec on Jul 17, 2023 18:32:35 GMT
Great shame about Jamie Driscoll. Worked with his office on a couple of things and was well impressed.
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Post by graham on Jul 17, 2023 18:37:19 GMT
graham "Is it really so unreasonable to offer what he promised in his Leadership Election campaign?" NO. "That was barely 3 years ago - not 50 years! Moreover, even Johnson was prepared to reject Austerity and adopt a much more Heseltinian interventionist approach to the economy." INDEED. "If he could seek to bury Austerity, we should expect nothing less from a Labour government." AGREED. "Otherwise what is the point of electing them?" Because Tory continuity will be vastly worse. We cannot all have the leaders we want. Frankly I would have preferred John Smith or even Bryan Gould to Tony Blair. But set against Thatcher and Major, or any of the Tories of that time, Blair a hundred times over. Not only did Blair embrace the inequalities of Thatcherite Economics, he extended it. Privatisation of parts of the NHS, more workfare, introducing the private sector into schools, ramping up property prices, etc., making it easier for the Tories to go even further when they got in again, and harder to have left wing policies in future. Where money was put into education and health, it involved locking in taxpayers to paying the private sector. Aside from the war crime of the Iraq War, that is why I despise him more than Thatcher.Starmer has shown less courage in standing up to Blair and his ilk than Franco did to Hitler. This guy who mourned Berlusconi in a way rather reminiscent of De Valera turning up at the German Embassy to pay his respects following the Fuhrer's death. Blair is clearly a malevolent human being and the world would be better off without him. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jul 17, 2023 18:43:03 GMT
Not only did Blair embrace the inequalities of Thatcherite Economics, he extended it. Privatisation of parts of the NHS, more workfare, introducing the private sector into schools, ramping up property prices, etc., making it easier for the Tories to go even further when they got in again, and harder to have left wing policies in future. Where money was put into education and health, it involved locking in taxpayers to paying the private sector. Aside from the war crime of the Iraq War, that is why I despise him more than Thatcher.Starmer has shown less courage in standing up to Blair and his ilk than Franco did to Hitler. This guy who mourned Berlusconi in a way rather reminiscent of De Valera turning up at the German Embassy to pay his respects following the Fuhrer's death. Blair is clearly a malevolent human being and the world would be better off without him. Flippin' heck. Hyperbole overload. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2023 18:46:03 GMT
Aside from the war crime of the Iraq War, that is why I despise him more than Thatcher.Starmer has shown less courage in standing up to Blair and his ilk than Franco did to Hitler. This guy who mourned Berlusconi in a way rather reminiscent of De Valera turning up at the German Embassy to pay his respects following the Fuhrer's death. Blair is clearly a malevolent human being and the world would be better off without him. Flippin' heck. Hyperbole overload. Very christian attitude though- stoning and so on all part of the fun. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jul 17, 2023 18:46:29 GMT
graham "Is it really so unreasonable to offer what he promised in his Leadership Election campaign?" NO. "That was barely 3 years ago - not 50 years! Moreover, even Johnson was prepared to reject Austerity and adopt a much more Heseltinian interventionist approach to the economy." INDEED. "If he could seek to bury Austerity, we should expect nothing less from a Labour government." AGREED. "Otherwise what is the point of electing them?" Because Tory continuity will be vastly worse. We cannot all have the leaders we want. Frankly I would have preferred John Smith or even Bryan Gould to Tony Blair. But set against Thatcher and Major, or any of the Tories of that time, Blair a hundred times over. In economic terms Johnson did more to undermine the post - Thatcher concensus than any PM since Callaghan. Why cannot Starmer do likewise? Jesus wept.. what is it with older europhobic lefties being suckered by Johnson? Actually maybe I've just answered my own question.. |
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
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Post by pjw1961 on Jul 17, 2023 18:56:23 GMT
Just as well you didn't raise economic policy in the 1940s or there would have been a full-scale riot.  Seems to be vexing the Blairites more! (Not as much as Corbyn tbh) Who are the Blairites on this site? - Do tell. |
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
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Post by pjw1961 on Jul 17, 2023 18:57:40 GMT
Flippin' heck. Hyperbole overload. Very christian attitude though- stoning and so on all part of the fun. Looks like Blair ranks even below Callaghan! |
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Post by graham on Jul 17, 2023 19:07:33 GMT
In economic terms Johnson did more to undermine the post - Thatcher concensus than any PM since Callaghan. Why cannot Starmer do likewise? Jesus wept.. what is it with older europhobic lefties being suckered by Johnson? Actually maybe I've just answered my own question.. I am certainly not europhobic - nor am I a europhile. Some of us hold a balanced position on the issue. |
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Post by graham on Jul 17, 2023 19:08:34 GMT
Very christian attitude though- stoning and so on all part of the fun. Looks like Blair ranks even below Callaghan! I have never doubted that - indeed he ranks below Thatcher. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2023 19:29:10 GMT
graham "Is it really so unreasonable to offer what he promised in his Leadership Election campaign?" NO. "That was barely 3 years ago - not 50 years! Moreover, even Johnson was prepared to reject Austerity and adopt a much more Heseltinian interventionist approach to the economy." INDEED. "If he could seek to bury Austerity, we should expect nothing less from a Labour government." AGREED. "Otherwise what is the point of electing them?" Because Tory continuity will be vastly worse. We cannot all have the leaders we want. Frankly I would have preferred John Smith or even Bryan Gould to Tony Blair. But set against Thatcher and Major, or any of the Tories of that time, Blair a hundred times over. In economic terms Johnson did more to undermine the post - Thatcher concensus than any PM since Callaghan. Why cannot Starmer do likewise? I don't want to inflame tensions on here, (today of all days), but I'm struggling a little to see how Callaghan undermined the post-Thatcher consensus considering he was PM pre-Thatcher. |
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Post by graham on Jul 17, 2023 19:37:38 GMT
In economic terms Johnson did more to undermine the post - Thatcher concensus than any PM since Callaghan. Why cannot Starmer do likewise? I don't want to inflame tensions on here, (today of all days), but I'm struggling a little to see how Callaghan undermined the post-Thatcher consensus considering he was PM pre-Thatcher. Ok - let me rephrase that . I say this as someone who utterly detests Johnson for other reasons, but in terms of economic policy he was the most left wing PM since Callaghan - as reflected in his willingness to increase state intervention and to allow Public Borrowing to rise when the national interest required it. If only Blair had done the same with his big majorities! Johnson was rather Heseltinian in his Industrial policy - despite their massive differences on Brexit etc. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2023 19:43:36 GMT
In economic terms Johnson did more to undermine the post - Thatcher concensus than any PM since Callaghan. Why cannot Starmer do likewise? I don't want to inflame tensions on here, (today of all days), but I'm struggling a little to see how Callaghan undermined the post-Thatcher consensus considering he was PM pre-Thatcher. He was bloody devious, that’s how. |
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Post by graham on Jul 17, 2023 19:45:39 GMT
I am not paricularly expecting it , but I would not be unhappy were Labour's performance this Thursday to prove disappointing. I feel that anything that undermines or weakens Starmer is now to be welcomed.
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
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Post by pjw1961 on Jul 17, 2023 19:56:36 GMT
I am not paricularly expecting it , but I would not be unhappy were Labour's performance this Thursday to prove disappointing. I feel that anything that undermines or weakens Starmer is now to be welcomed. Perhaps you should consider voting Conservative - that would be the best way to undermine Labour. And since you think Johnson and Thatcher were preferable to Blair and, presumably, Starmer, that would seem a comfortable choice for you. |
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Post by graham on Jul 17, 2023 20:01:01 GMT
I am not paricularly expecting it , but I would not be unhappy were Labour's performance this Thursday to prove disappointing. I feel that anything that undermines or weakens Starmer is now to be welcomed. Perhaps you should consider voting Conservative - that would be the best way to undermine Labour. And since you think Johnson and Thatcher were preferable to Blair and, presumably, Starmer, that would seem a comfortable choice for you. No - I shall vote Green or spoil my ballot paper. I would never support the forces of evil represented by the Tory party - and of which Blair was but an extension. All the evidence now suggests that Starmer has chosen the same road. My comments re- Johnson were confined to economic policy. Johnson and Starmer do ,of course, have much in common - in that both have been proved beyond reasonable doubt to be compulsive liars. To be fair to Starmer, he has yet to show any sign of wishing to follow Blair's example by becoming a war criminal. But who knows what may lie ahead.
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Post by shevii on Jul 17, 2023 20:36:12 GMT
I am not paricularly expecting it , but I would not be unhappy were Labour's performance this Thursday to prove disappointing. I feel that anything that undermines or weakens Starmer is now to be welcomed. Perhaps you should consider voting Conservative - that would be the best way to undermine Labour. And since you think Johnson and Thatcher were preferable to Blair and, presumably, Starmer, that would seem a comfortable choice for you. Voting Tory would send the wrong message to Labour though- to be even more right wing. |
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
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Post by pjw1961 on Jul 17, 2023 20:40:15 GMT
Perhaps you should consider voting Conservative - that would be the best way to undermine Labour. And since you think Johnson and Thatcher were preferable to Blair and, presumably, Starmer, that would seem a comfortable choice for you. Voting Tory would send the wrong message to Labour though- to be even more right wing. I have no hesitation in saying that whatever the shortcomings of the opposition parties, I hope the Tories get utterly hammered out of sight on Thursday. It would still be more than they deserve. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2023 20:40:49 GMT
I don't want to inflame tensions on here, (today of all days), but I'm struggling a little to see how Callaghan undermined the post-Thatcher consensus considering he was PM pre-Thatcher. He was bloody devious, that’s how. What, avuncular old 'Sunny Jim' Callaghan? He hid it well. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2023 20:54:52 GMT
He was bloody devious, that’s how. What, avuncular old 'Sunny Jim' Callaghan? He hid it well. He was cunning as well as devious. |
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neilj
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Posts: 6,380
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Post by neilj on Jul 17, 2023 21:01:05 GMT
What, avuncular old 'Sunny Jim' Callaghan? He hid it well. He was cunning as well as devious. As cunning as a fox who's just been appointed Professor of Cunning at Oxford University? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2023 21:07:19 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2023 21:11:00 GMT
He was cunning as well as devious. As cunning as a fox who's just been appointed Professor of Cunning at Oxford University? With a plan so cunning, you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel? |
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Post by alec on Jul 17, 2023 21:24:23 GMT
I think some people are confused with Johnson's economic approach. It wasn't 'left wing'. It was 'spending other people's cash on whatever helps Boris Johnson'. That's why it was such an inconsistent ragtag jumble of disparate promises.
A bridge here. A megastack there. Open this railway station. Close that community centre. Higher wages. Tax business to pay for the bridge. Cut benefits and workers rights (very left wing..) to pay for the tax on business. Shaft the economy. Shaft that nice looking totty in the comms office. Phwoar. I wasn't lying - it was a joke. Piffle.
If polls said a majority wanted austerity, Johnson would have delivered austerity.
Left wing my arse. There's left, right, centre, and Johnson's ego. Move along, and less of this foolishness.
Some lefties.....Jesus wept.
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steve
Member
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Post by steve on Jul 17, 2023 21:34:01 GMT
So the Tories want to pull the plug on degrees that they consider inferior to the PPE degree at Oxford most got after leaving fee charging school.
Apparently the recipients of these lesser person degrees obtain from them a false promise of a better future.
No need to pay out £30000 for this the Tories are happy to offer false promises of a better future for free.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2023 21:34:33 GMT
I think some people are confused with Johnson's economic approach. It wasn't 'left wing'. It was 'spending other people's cash on whatever helps Boris Johnson'. That's why it was such an inconsistent ragtag jumble of disparate promises. This. |
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Post by crossbat11 on Jul 17, 2023 21:38:45 GMT
Postcard from Lisbon.
Keeping up with news from back home every now and again, I read John Harris's latest piece in the Guardian. It was a bit of well trailed angst about the poverty of ambition of Starmer. In that sense, it was neither particularly novel nor interesting and as is often the case, the comments and discussion underneath the article were far more illuminating.
One comment particularly caught my eye because it encapsulated the debate we often have on this forum, especially amongst those of us loosely on the centre left part of the political spectrum.
First of all the writer described two potential, but totally opposite, voting considerations for those contemplating a Labour vote.
a)I want the next election to return a kinder and more equitable government and so I'll be voting for Labour or whoever is most likely to defeat the Tories in my constituency.
or
b) Labour's policies won't bring about the completely different kind of UK that I want, and so I don't see any reason to vote for them rather than the Tories.
The writer then goes on to say that he thinks a) is self-evidently the right choice but confesses distress at hearing many whose thinking is leading them to option b). Maybe he's an avid reader of this site!
He then concludes with what I thought was a very interesting bit of analysis of all this, and one that I very much agree with. He thinks the difference between the choice of the two options is a) being what he calls an " instrumental account of voting" whereby people such as himself (and me) cast their vote to help achieve some outcome, even if they simply see it as the least worst outcome and those who go for option b) indulging in an "expressive account of voting".
Whereby they cast their vote to say, often to themselves, something about their own views.
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steve
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Post by steve on Jul 17, 2023 21:40:33 GMT
Betting Odds With 3 Days to go!
Selby & Ainsty:
🌹 1/8 🔺
🌳 11/2 🔻
🔶 200/1 🔻
Somerton & Frome:
🔶 1/50 -
🌳 16/1 🔻
🌹 150/1 🔻
Uxbridge & South Ruislip:
🌹 1/10 🔻
🌳 8/1 🔺
🔶 100/1 🔺
A bit of expectation management internal polling for Somerton is looking promising but odds of 50:1 On seem wildly exaggerated.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2023 21:57:23 GMT
Betting Odds With 3 Days to go! Selby & Ainsty: 🌹 1/8 🔺 🌳 11/2 🔻 🔶 200/1 🔻 Somerton & Frome: 🔶 1/50 - 🌳 16/1 🔻 🌹 150/1 🔻 Uxbridge & South Ruislip: 🌹 1/10 🔻 🌳 8/1 🔺 🔶 100/1 🔺 That's spooky, I was just about to go and do some research on this! I'm guessing the tree symbol represents CON rather than Green? |
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steve
Member
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Post by steve on Jul 17, 2023 22:00:52 GMT
@isa
It does perhaps jib could lend them his blue crayon
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