steve
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Post by steve on Aug 8, 2023 14:50:53 GMT
Sadiq Khan speaking out again in the absence of anything damning coming from Starmer et al.
Regarding the reprehensible foul mouthed troll Anderson.
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Aug 8, 2023 14:51:31 GMT
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Mr Poppy
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Teaching assistant and now your elected PM
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Post by Mr Poppy on Aug 8, 2023 14:53:51 GMT
Some of the LoC confusion about what is and what is not 'racism' is perhaps due to the misuse of racism accusations by LAB HQ? It would be entirely justified for someone to criticise the Qatar govt* but not generalise about ALL Qatari or muslim people. However, when it comes to Israel then the 'hierarchy of racism' has been flipped and, under Starmer's 'new' management, then criticising the Israeli govt (not all Israeli or jewish people) is grounds for expulsion from LAB Although the 'real' reason is probably that she was 'Far-Left' and the false accusation of anti-semitism was merely a convenient excuse. www.thejc.com/news/politics/naomi-wimborne-idrissi-suspended-by-labour-again-for-speaking-at-event-of-proscribed-group-5i4O0Lzmr6eKLCYH2ajeKJSimilarly it is not racist to highlight and criticise some of the ongoing, illegal, practices of some groups in UK provided it is clearly not a criticism of an entire group of people. I appreciate some folks struggle with being able to spot the difference but the incorrect use of the term 'racist' is why the Police fear investigating some ongoing illegal practices (links already provided). Hence IMO the importance of ensuring the word 'racist' is used accurately and not just chucked around as an ignorant, unsubstantiated insult. Actual racism clearly is an ongoing issue but claims of racism need to be substantiated with actual evidence, not misrepresentations (eg as per the discrimination against white males conducted until recently by the RAF**). * As Starmer did, noting "In the Arabian country it is illegal to promote or engage in homosexuality and therefore has been scrutinised for its treatment of the LGBTQI+ community as well as women and migrant workers". Although saying he wouldn't watch England play was 'virtue signalling' IMO. www.lbc.co.uk/radio/special-shows/call-keir/keir-starmer-human-rights-issues-labour-refuse-to-go-to-qatar/** Still rumbling on: news.sky.com/story/fury-at-lack-of-sanction-for-raf-over-botched-diversity-drive-as-soldiers-face-10-000-fine-for-getting-drunk-12934256 |
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Mr Poppy
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Teaching assistant and now your elected PM
Posts: 3,774
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Post by Mr Poppy on Aug 8, 2023 15:03:18 GMT
NB Above is IMO, "light hearted banter", but given that is vague and subjective then Mark can perhaps clarify what breaks his rule2 and what is 'banter'. In fairness to Mark he very recently did :- "challenging a member on their views/posts is perfectly acceptable, but, accusations made against a member without referencing something they have posted is not. On a more general point, as also said upthread, several members have engaged in low level 'banter' against other members.I have to remind said members to "play the ball, not the man" and that what is sometimes meant as humour can easily be mis-interpreted, so please think before you post." simplifying it later to :- "simply calling * (or anyone else) a name without referencing his posts/views amounts to flaming." I thought that was fair and left room for individual responsibility . I asked for some specific examples as 'banter' v 'trolling' is subjective. Hopefully we'll see an end to 'Fake Gotchas' and "flaming"/trolling and perhaps time for a new main thread to hopefully draw a line under the issue - although that has been tried before and didn't work in the past, then I'm prepared to try a 'clean slate' approach once again. |
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Post by Rafwan on Aug 8, 2023 15:06:51 GMT
mercianYes, I can see that my words would have felt like a real slap in the face after your generous remarks! I speak trenchantly on these matters because I believe racism is one of the most invidious, divisive and unpleasant influences there is. I also think right-wingers use it ruthlessly to divide people and maintain their dominance. Earlier on this thread it was suggested that you are on the autism spectrum. This throws a completely different light on the matter. I know little about it, but believe it means that differences between our views may result not just from personal or cultural reasons, but possibly for neurological reasons. Our cognitive processes interpret the world in slightly different ways. (Of course, I might also be on the spectrum - I sometimes think it may be a necessary qualification to post on this board! - but if so, I am at a different point with different consequences.) For me, the worst racism relies on innuendo and the most subtle variations of meaning. It is up to me to explain what I mean by this and not take it for granted. So when you say that there is a steadily growing number of Muslims in this country, I say so what? Who cares and why? More brown skinned people? So what? More geezers in long white robes and women in shawls? Who cares! But think about the word ‘replacement’. It means picking something up, taking it away, and then disposing of it. And then putting something different in its place. And applied to people that becomes very sinister and frightening. So in strict numerical terms, according the worst case scenario you present, there will be a threefold increase in Muslims in this country (from circa 6% to circa 18%) by 2050. Sadly, it is extremely unlikely that I will still be here then (already now well over my three score and ten). But the idea that I will have been ‘replaced’ by a Muslim is deeply sinister and unpleasant. It is very important to understand this in order to understand the invidiousness of racism. In saying the ‘replacement theory’ is in any way true is to endorse these horrible ideas. When pressed, I think you acknowledged that you equated an increasing proportion of Muslim people as in some way threatening. In drawing this equation, you make their presence (and especially the increasing presence) appear dangerous and frightening. Yet all of the threats you suggest are empty. For me the worst example was using a Saudi-produced document to suggest its vile homophobic content would be used here. This was highly disreputable. Whilst you acknowledged its irrelevance, you did not apologise or offer any contrition. In fact you seem to blame me for overestimating your ‘diligence’! On FGM you offered a ludicrous exaggeration of numbers, and worse, deployed a brave and sensitive videoclip which was exposing and combatting the problem to advance your disreputable line. The same with forced marriage, ‘honour killings’’ sharia law, etc. When all this was refuted, you kept falling back on the forlorn line that you were sure these must be occurring somewhere (but still without offering any convincing evidence). This is unacceptable. In all cases you must ask yourself if it is happening more in the Muslim communities than others, and if so do we lack the capacity to identify, combat, and defeat it. These are the reasons I am so strident. And I don’t care if it is for personal, cultural or neurological reasons, if you continue to post racist material, you can expect a very robust response from me. One final point. Autism would certainly explain the sense of victimhood that is occasionally hinted at in your posts (and which I never really understood). If you were subjected to oppression and bullying as a youngster then that is utterly miserable and disgusting. Kids can sometimes be hateful, but I have to say they often learn this from their parents and other adults.
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Post by kay9 on Aug 8, 2023 15:22:51 GMT
Latest YG 6 poll Scots average, with changes from 2019 GE (done as a kay9 experiment) SNP: 34% (-11)SGP: 7% (+ 6)SLab: 34% (+16)SCon: 13% (-12)REFUK: 3% (+ 2)SLD: 8% (- 2)EDIT : Didn't work  corrected that: add/ subtract spaces as required. |
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Mr Poppy
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Teaching assistant and now your elected PM
Posts: 3,774
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Post by Mr Poppy on Aug 8, 2023 15:25:01 GMT
YG have various new polls on the immigration issue: LAB now back the use of barges and of course the expectation is that they are 'temporary': www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/06/labour-would-barges-temporarily-house-asylum-seekers-stephen-kinnockand some polling showing both the importance of the immigration issue and the very low level of expectations (ie if the Rwanda scheme does start and if we then see a noticeable drop in small boat crossings then the VI boost to CON could be significant - with some CON'19->RUK/DK 'coming home'). TBC if LAB then adopt CON's Rwanda scheme or not. |
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Post by leftieliberal on Aug 8, 2023 15:26:09 GMT
Latest YG 6 poll Scots average, with changes from 2019 GE (done as a kay9 experiment) SNP: 34% (-11)SGP: 7% (+6)SLab: 34% (+16)SCon: 13% (-12)REFUK: 3% (+2)SLD: 8% (-2)EDIT : Didn't work | SNP: | 34% | (-11) | | SGP: | 7% | (+6) | | SLab: | 34% | (+16) | | SCon: | 13% | (-12) | | RefUK: | 3% | (+2) | | SLD: | 8% | (-2) |
Works as a Table (although Table format doesn't allow me to right-justify individual columns).  |
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Post by guymonde on Aug 8, 2023 15:32:34 GMT
Isn't the challenge here for politicians brave enough to do so, to debunk the fears and scaremongering rather than pander to it? The ban on new car sales in 2030 isn't, as some fear, the deadline to get out of whatever vehicle you're currently driving and buy an electric alternative, it is instead a first key stage in the gradual and managed phasing out of petrol and diesel engine motor car use. By then, car manufacture and infrastructure development will be such that the costs and current difficulties with electric powered cars will, via sensible government, have gone. Honest communication on this is key if the essential public consent is to be gained. If we surf ignorance for political gain, the next generation will never forgive us for the desolate legacy that they will inherit. Yes I agree - that is what they should certainly do. But in the new economic circumstances which i believe we are in , your " gradual and managed" transition is absolutely key. The general public cannot cope with cliff face transitions into prohibitive vehicle costs. I think that is all this survey is communicating-money worries. I agree, Colin but that is the diametric opposite of the behaviour of the Tories (and some terrified Labour people including perhaps Keir) in W.London. The Tories for several years, lacking anything else of interest to say to people in London, are pressing along with the culture war which alleges over cycling, ULEZ, building homes on rail car parks, even promoting the idea of a 15 minute city, that it's all the evil socialist anti car prejudice. A bit like it seems, republicans in the US, some of them actually believe it. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 8, 2023 15:33:03 GMT
Very interesting video by Professor Robert Reich on definition of Fascism , For those not familiar with Prof Reich he's an esteemed scholar educated at Oxford and Yale and has formed a part of several Democratic transition teams. Reich's demonstrates using the traitors own words and actions that he sustains all necessary criteria to be labelled unequivocally a fascist. I find it interesting how many of the elements can also be identified in the current Tory regime, embryonic fascism would perhaps be the correct term,it's possible for them to climb back into the daylight but the wish to do so seems sadly absent. youtu.be/9XTJNy_OrjE |
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Post by kay9 on Aug 8, 2023 15:39:02 GMT
Latest YG 6 poll Scots average, with changes from 2019 GE (done as a kay9 experiment) SNP: 34% (-11) SGP: 7% (+ 6) SLab: 34% (+16) SCon: 13% (-12)REFUK: 3% (+ 2) SLD: 8% (- 2)EDIT : Didn't work | SNP: | 34% | (-11) | | SGP: | 7% | (+6) | | SLab: | 34% | (+16) | | SCon: | 13% | (-12) | | RefUK: | 3% | (+2) | | SLD: | 8% | (-2) |
Works as a Table (although Table format doesn't allow me to right-justify individual columns). If you really like right-justification … |
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Aug 8, 2023 15:48:43 GMT
Latest YG 6 poll Scots average, with changes from 2019 GE (done as a kay9 experiment) SNP: 34% (-11)SGP: 7% (+ 6)SLab: 34% (+16)SCon: 13% (-12)REFUK: 3% (+ 2)SLD: 8% (- 2)EDIT : Didn't work corrected that: add/ subtract spaces as required.
SNP: 34% (-11)
SGP: 7% (+ 6)
Lab: 34% (+16)
Con: 13% (-12)
FUK: 3% (+ 2)
L-D: 8% (- 2) |
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Post by leftieliberal on Aug 8, 2023 16:01:04 GMT
| SNP: | 34% | (-11) | | SGP: | 7% | (+6) | | SLab: | 34% | (+16) | | SCon: | 13% | (-12) | | RefUK: | 3% | (+2) | | SLD: | 8% | (-2) |
Works as a Table (although Table format doesn't allow me to right-justify individual columns). If you really like right-justification … It saves a lot of fiddling about adding spaces and trying to get the figures to line up. |
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steve
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Posts: 12,643
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Post by steve on Aug 8, 2023 16:03:05 GMT
Being a humanity vacuum comes at a price .
In this case it was around £1500
"Painting over murals for children at asylum centre cost Home Office £1,550
The Home Office spent more than £1,500 of public money painting over cartoon murals that were meant to welcome children to a controversial asylum reception centre, Rajeev Syal reports."
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Aug 8, 2023 16:07:47 GMT
How to make money from a by-election!
"Shortly after Margaret Ferrier’s Covid rule breaches came to light, the former MP and Celebrity Big Brother contestant launched the “largest ever crowd-funder in the history of by-elections.”
He managed to raise £12,239 over 45 days in late 2020 thanks to the generosity of 422 supporters."
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Post by graham on Aug 8, 2023 16:43:37 GMT
This has just appeared as a comment on Vote UK site 'MID BEDFORDSHIRE: It seems that I was wrong. Someone I trust has just rung to correct me, and says that Nadine Dorries will resign from her seat at the start of September.'
It is suggested Dorries has a book coming out next month and that she will time her resignation to boost sales etc.
If this proves to be correct, perhaps the Tories will not be inclined to move the writ until October with a by election in mid-November.
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Post by athena on Aug 8, 2023 17:03:22 GMT
... Having never directly experienced a parliamentary by-election before, I somewhat cynically expected a post-election wall of silence politically until the GE is called, now that her election has been safely secured. I was therefore pleasantly surprised to receive the leaflet. I wonder if this is a regular occurrence after by-elections? If your brand new MP feels she may be vulnerable at the forthcoming GE, especially if she thinks the GE isn't too far away, you can expect her to be doing everything she can to demonstrate that she's a conscientious, effective MP and to build a oersonal vote through case work for constituents. Never mind stuffing dead trees through your door, expect an appearance on your local high street, where she'll be able to soak up congratulations and appreciation from grateful voters and assure the sceptics that whatever they bend her ear about will be her absolute priority over the next few months. My first ever vote was in the now defunct Langbaurgh constituency at the 1992 GE. Lab had gained the seat in a byelection caused by the sudden death of the sitting MP a mere few months previously and the new MP, Dr Ashok Kumar, had been frantically trying to convince his constituents to give him the gig on a more permanent basis. My parents didn't think he'd stand a chance in the GE and were proved correct. He was apparently gutted and when he eventually re-took the seat in 1997 (by which time I was long gone) he became an extraordinarily active local MP. The Beeb has an article on his story and the Guardian published an obituary when he died in 2010. |
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Post by athena on Aug 8, 2023 17:10:27 GMT
The same applies to cars. Don't wait until you can buy a second-hand EV with decent range at a reasonable price, but choose a hybrid like, say, a Vauxhall Ampera which you can charge at home and get at least 30 miles on electric from the battery before the petrol engine cuts in and starts re-charging it. Technically the petrol engine is called a range-extender, but its particular value is that it removes range anxiety in that on long journeys you simply treat it like a petrol car. I was hoping that someone who knows more about cars than I do would have replied to this, but as no one has... I'd be very wary of purchasing a hybrid as a stepping stone. There's evidence that real-world emissions are much higher than initially advertised (picked up by mainstream print and broadcast media - which is why I knew about it) and the EU is already planning to change their climate rating accordingly. It seems reasonable to assume that the UK rules will also change in the next few years. |
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Post by athena on Aug 8, 2023 17:17:44 GMT
"In an interview with the Daily Express, Lee Anderson, the Conservative deputy chairman, delivered a characteristically blunt response. He told the paper: If they don’t like barges, then they should fuck off back to France … "Asked on LBC if Anderson was speaking on behalf of the party, Chalk defended what he said, arguing that his Tory colleague was expressing the “righteous indignation of the British people”. This seems like one of those examples I was referring to of ascribing particular views to too wide a group. It seems Chalk believes that the "British people" feel "righteous indignation" about migrants; so all 65m of them presumably. I rather doubt there is a unanimous view on that. Personally I feel righteous indignation that Lee Anderson is an MP and deputy leader of the Conservative Party rather than ranting in the corner of a pub somewhere and being avoided by the other customers, which seems like his natural home. I think you're being a bit harsh on Chalk. Given that the UK has a majoritarian culture I'm prepared to accept references to 'the British people' if they apply to a simple majority of people of voting age. I decided to see if I could find any data on public attitudes to immigration and settled on this recent (June 2023) report by Kantar and the Oxford Migration Laboratory. They report that 52% of respondents thought immigration should be reduced (interestingly this figure has fallen since 2011). Roughly 50% of respondents wanted reductions in asylum seekers and people coming here to work without a visa (they quote these figures separately for people who did or did not favour an overall reduction in immigration ), which I reckon are the two categories relevant to the small boats issue. So Chalk and Lee Anderson appear to be speaking for a slender majority of Brits - although it's pushing it a bit to say they're expressing the indignation (righteous or otherwise) of the British people, I don't think it's worth making a fuss about inaccuracy. Not that I approve of the original comment, which strays towards inciting racial hatred. Language matters and it shouldn't be possible to mistake a representative of a political party advocating tighter controls on immigration for someone ranting to his mates after a few pints. |
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Post by James E on Aug 8, 2023 17:22:35 GMT
Latest YG 6 poll Scots average, with changes from 2019 GE (done as a kay9 experiment) SNP: 34% (-11)SGP: 7% (+6)SLab: 34% (+16)SCon: 13% (-12)REFUK: 3% (+2)SLD: 8% (-2)EDIT : Didn't work No experimental formatting but just to note that the last 6 Deltapolls' averaged Scottish sub-samples are fairly similar: Lab 36% SNP 35% Con 15% The most recent full Scottish Westminster polls still show a narrow SNP lead of 0-3 points. |
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neilj
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Posts: 6,392
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Post by neilj on Aug 8, 2023 17:48:53 GMT
I thought the tories were against cancel culture...or is it they only think people should be cancelled if they have a different opinion to them www.shropshirestar.com/news/uk-news/2023/08/08/starmer-challenged-over-would-be-mps-greenpeace-links/Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer has been challenged by the Tories to ban members of “eco mob” Greenpeace from standing for the party. Energy Security Secretary Grant Shapps issued the demand after it emerged Labour’s candidate in Mid Bedfordshire, Alistair Strathern, was part of a zombie-themed publicity stunt in Westminster. |
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Post by lens on Aug 8, 2023 18:13:04 GMT
The same applies to cars. Don't wait until you can buy a second-hand EV with decent range at a reasonable price, but choose a hybrid like, say, a Vauxhall Ampera which you can charge at home and get at least 30 miles on electric from the battery before the petrol engine cuts in and starts re-charging it. Technically the petrol engine is called a range-extender, but its particular value is that it removes range anxiety in that on long journeys you simply treat it like a petrol car. I was hoping that someone who knows more about cars would have replied to this, but as no one has... I'd be very wary of purchasing a hybrid as a stepping stone. There's evidence that real-world emissions are much higher than initially advertised (picked up by mainstream print and broadcast media - which is why I knew about it) and the EU is already planning to change their climate rating accordingly. It seems reasonable to assume that the UK rules will also change in the next few years. I have a certain agreement with what leftieliberal says, but just two comments. Firstly that the per mile cost saving electric can enable (at least with home charging at a suitable tariff) is only possible for short around town journeys - long distance you're paying the same as for petrol. Secondly, I'd beware of what the future may bring. The lesson from the ULEZ expansion is that legislation can be brought in to make what was previously totally acceptable (eg a diesel only about 6-7 years ago) unacceptable. Which is why the ULEZ expansion is seen as far less fair than such as the 2030 diesel/petrol *SALE* ban. By itself, the latter doesn't affect a car already bought - if you must drive a petrol car through the 2030's, buy one in 2029. Which i think is athena's point. It's highly likely that the range of cars affected by such as a ULEZ charge will expand in the future, pretty certain that cars in London currently exempt will fall foul in a few years time as regulations tighten. The only way to be sure is with a zero emission vehicle. And on the wider picture, then again, yes, it's been found that PHEVs don't really do much in terms of carbon saving. It was found that many owners (especially fleet and company cars) never bothered to plug in at all. Why bother with the hassle if the company paid for the petrol? Which is why the authorities cooled on offering such as subsidies towards them - better to reserve such for electric cars. |
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Aug 8, 2023 18:22:24 GMT
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Post by leftieliberal on Aug 8, 2023 18:32:51 GMT
But would you put your own money on that outcome? Sure, it is possible but only once in history (the National Government of 1935) have we seen a result this extreme. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Aug 8, 2023 18:37:55 GMT
But would you put your own money on that outcome? Sure, it is possible but only once in history (the National Government of 1935) have we seen a result this extreme. As they say in the land of "X" - "Retweets are not an endorsement". |
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Post by graham on Aug 8, 2023 18:40:57 GMT
But would you put your own money on that outcome? Sure, it is possible but only once in history (the National Government of 1935) have we seen a result this extreme. The National Government had its mega - landslide in 1931. In 1935 Labour did gain 100 seats with the National majority reduced to 247. |
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Post by leftieliberal on Aug 8, 2023 18:42:04 GMT
The same applies to cars. Don't wait until you can buy a second-hand EV with decent range at a reasonable price, but choose a hybrid like, say, a Vauxhall Ampera which you can charge at home and get at least 30 miles on electric from the battery before the petrol engine cuts in and starts re-charging it. Technically the petrol engine is called a range-extender, but its particular value is that it removes range anxiety in that on long journeys you simply treat it like a petrol car. I'd be very wary of purchasing a hybrid as a stepping stone. There's evidence that real-world emissions are much higher than initially advertised (picked up by mainstream print and broadcast media - which is why I knew about it) and the EU is already planning to change their climate rating accordingly. It seems reasonable to assume that the UK rules will also change in the next few years. I find this comment extremely insulting. I have been driving for over 40 years and to suggest as athena does that I know nothing about cars is as offensive as any of mercian's posts. I would point out a particular feature of the car I referenced: the engine does not drive the wheels directly but recharges the battery and so can operate under a nearly constant load condition, something which athena does not seem to understand makes the petrol engine more efficient. But, hey, ignorance on here is no bar to criticism of others. |
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neilj
Member
Posts: 6,392
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Post by neilj on Aug 8, 2023 18:42:20 GMT
oldnatWould be nice for the tories to be down to 90, but tend to agree it's unlikely
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Post by athena on Aug 8, 2023 18:44:32 GMT
leftieliberalI'm sorry you feel insulted. I wasn't referring to you, but to myself. I'm not an expert on cars and I wanted to make that clear before I commented on what you had said.
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Post by graham on Aug 8, 2023 18:45:54 GMT
That poll gives the SNP 38 seats which is highly unlikely in the context of the overall GB figures recorded.
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