steve
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Post by steve on May 16, 2023 19:44:24 GMT
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 16, 2023 20:09:40 GMT
Can I politely suggest to our Scottish nationalist colleagues that they tone down the Labour bashing somewhat. While a hung parliament is obviously a best bet for you, you do need the Tories ousted as it seems if the NatCons (or NatCs as they are increasingly known) take over the prospects for Scotland are grim. Today at the NatC rally Sir John Hayes MP said: "That Conservatives have failed to dismantle the destructive machinery of Blair’s failed constitutional experiment is largely the result of timidity – a failure to do what is truly conservative." Since the only significant Blair "constitutional experiment" was devolution, it is hard to see what else this could mean. The National Conservative Statement of Principles gives a clear idea of how they think 'rebellious provinces' should be dealt with: "We recommend the federalist principle, which prescribes a delegation of power to the respective states or subdivisions of the nation so as to allow greater variation, experimentation, and freedom. However, in those states or subdivisions in which law and justice have been manifestly corrupted, or in which lawlessness, immorality, and dissolution reign, national government must intervene energetically to restore order."So if any Scot thinks a Conservative government is going to further the cause of Scotland they might want to be careful what they wish for.
That most Scots would like the present corrupt government consigned to the dustbin is no reason to vote Labour here. It's a great argument for not voting Tory (or not voting SLab in any Tory held constituency - or one held by the SNP with Tories in 2nd place).
However, if the your fears that the English electorate might actually prefer a NatCon influenced government in 2024 are borne out, then it's an even stronger argument for Scotland only to be in a wider, better union with most of the European continent, than to have its direction of travel determined by the neo-fascists that are such a strong force within English Conservatism.
Frankly, if English Labour are so incompetent that they can't get an overall majority of HoC in England alone, then they should just bugger off and leave the field clear for another progressive force in England that is capable of persuading the English electorate that redistributive policies that increase equality are a benefit to all, and that partnership with other states, and pooling sovereignty with them in common endeavour, is a positive good.
Having recently returned from a trip to Alloway, I'll let Burns describe the approach of ELab -
"Wee, sleekit, cowrin, tim’rous beastie,
O, what a panic’s in thy breastie!" |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on May 16, 2023 20:09:59 GMT
Been there, done that. After the Union between England (and Wales) and Scotland there was a brief fashion for referring to Scotland as "North Britain" - hence for example the 'Scots Grays' cavalry regiment's official name of the Royal North British Dragoons in the 1700s. When the English entirely failed to reciprocate by calling their territory "South Britain" the Scots very sensibly buried the notion, never to be mentioned again. That was why I put it is brackets. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 16, 2023 20:15:09 GMT
Pedant Alert: The 1707 Union was between the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England (which incorporated Wales as part of its territory). As has happened regularly since, Wales seldom rates much of a mention. That was why I put it is brackets. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on May 16, 2023 20:16:50 GMT
Can I politely suggest to our Scottish nationalist colleagues that they tone down the Labour bashing somewhat. While a hung parliament is obviously a best bet for you, you do need the Tories ousted as it seems if the NatCons (or NatCs as they are increasingly known) take over the prospects for Scotland are grim. Today at the NatC rally Sir John Hayes MP said: "That Conservatives have failed to dismantle the destructive machinery of Blair’s failed constitutional experiment is largely the result of timidity – a failure to do what is truly conservative." Since the only significant Blair "constitutional experiment" was devolution, it is hard to see what else this could mean. The National Conservative Statement of Principles gives a clear idea of how they think 'rebellious provinces' should be dealt with: "We recommend the federalist principle, which prescribes a delegation of power to the respective states or subdivisions of the nation so as to allow greater variation, experimentation, and freedom. However, in those states or subdivisions in which law and justice have been manifestly corrupted, or in which lawlessness, immorality, and dissolution reign, national government must intervene energetically to restore order."So if any Scot thinks a Conservative government is going to further the cause of Scotland they might want to be careful what they wish for.
That most Scots would like the present corrupt government consigned to the dustbin is no reason to vote Labour here. It's a great argument for not voting Tory (or not voting SLab in any Tory held constituency - or one held by the SNP with Tories in 2nd place).
However, if the your fears that the English electorate might actually prefer a NatCon influenced government in 2024 are borne out, then it's an even stronger argument for Scotland only to be in a wider, better union with most of the European continent, than to have its direction of travel determined by the neo-fascists that are such a strong force within English Conservatism.
Frankly, if English Labour are so incompetent that they can't get an overall majority of HoC in England alone, then they should just bugger off and leave the field clear for another progressive force in England that is capable of persuading the English electorate that redistributive policies that increase equality are a benefit to all, and that partnership with other states, and pooling sovereignty with them in common endeavour, is a positive good.
Having recently returned from a trip to Alloway, I'll let Burns describe the approach of ELab -
"Wee, sleekit, cowrin, tim’rous beastie,
O, what a panic’s in thy breastie!"Thought you might say that somehow.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 20:22:29 GMT
I'm sure that your advice to us to "shut up and sit at the back of the bus" is well meant (though I doubt that concern for Scots well-being is at the centre of your plea). However, I am unconvinced that English voters will be persuaded to vote Tory, because supporters of Scots indy repeat what is oft pointed out in England- that Starmer's Labour Party is very similar to the One Nation Conservatism that the Scots electorate have rejected consistently.
That most Scots would like the present corrupt government consigned to the dustbin is no reason to vote Labour here. It's a great argument for not voting Tory (or not voting SLab in any Tory held constituency - or one held by the SNP with Tories in 2nd place).
However, if the your fears that the English electorate might actually prefer a NatCon influenced government in 2024 are borne out, then it's an even stronger argument for Scotland only to be in a wider, better union with most of the European continent, than to have its direction of travel determined by the neo-fascists that are such a strong force within English Conservatism.
Frankly, if English Labour are so incompetent that they can't get an overall majority of HoC in England alone, then they should just bugger off and leave the field clear for another progressive force in England that is capable of persuading the English electorate that redistributive policies that increase equality are a benefit to all, and that partnership with other states, and pooling sovereignty with them in common endeavour, is a positive good.
Having recently returned from a trip to Alloway, I'll let Burns describe the approach of ELab -
"Wee, sleekit, cowrin, tim’rous beastie,
O, what a panic’s in thy breastie!" Thought you might say that somehow. What, all of it?!? |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on May 16, 2023 20:27:51 GMT
That was why I put it is brackets. Now you are just being silly. I know the history of these isles just as well as you do. Wales, as you say, forms part of the Kingdom of England as a result of the Act of Union of 1536. There was never a Act of Union with Cornwall (conquored by Wessex, not England, by the 840s at the latest) or Berwick. They are legally integral parts of England. If you are going to take that line you need to stop talking about Scotland as a unit and begin mentioning areas such as the Lordship of the Isles for example, annexed as a result of Scottish royal imperialism. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on May 16, 2023 20:29:07 GMT
Thought you might say that somehow. What, all of it?!? Oh yes, a typical oldnat length and style response. |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 20:30:25 GMT
Oh yes, a typical oldnat length and style response. Is OldNat Scottish? |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 20:31:27 GMT
From the Guardian:
“A driver who was pulled over for speeding and appeared to officers to be drunk tried to switch places with his dog in an attempt to avoid arrest, police in Colorado are alleging.
An officer watched the motorist maneuvering inside the car before he got out on the passenger side on Saturday night in Springfield, a town of about 1,300 people on Colorado’s Eastern Plains, police said in a Facebook post on Sunday.“
Surprised they didn’t shoot the dog.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on May 16, 2023 20:34:18 GMT
Oh yes, a typical oldnat length and style response. Is OldNat Scottish? I've never really noticed. Why don't you ask him! |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 20:52:39 GMT
I've never really noticed. Why don't you ask him! Might do that - he seems pleasant enough. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 16, 2023 20:58:37 GMT
Why didn't you put Cornwall and Berwick in brackets as well? Both of these territories were also incorporated into England as a result of imperial expansion. Now you are just being silly. I know the history of these isles just as well as you do. Wales, as you say, forms part of the Kingdom of England as a result of the Act of Union of 1536. There was never a Act of Union with Cornwall (conquored by Wessex, not England, by the 840s at the latest) or Berwick. They are legally integral parts of England. If you are going to take that line you need to stop talking about Scotland as a unit and begin mentioning areas such as the Lordship of the Isles for example, annexed as a result of Scottish royal imperialism.
The 1536 "Act of Union" deprived Wales of any distinctive status that it had enjoyed, and was simply an Act of the English Parliament to enforce its incorporation as fully part of England.
James IV didn't bother with such niceties when he used his military strength to incorporate the Lordship of the Isles into Scotland.
My point, however, was that the imperial expansions of both the English and Scottish crowns created the states that signed the Treaty of Union in 1706.
Including the names of previously independent territories (whether bracketed or not) is an irrelevance. Wales didn't merit a mention in that Treaty, any more than Mercia did. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 16, 2023 20:59:30 GMT
Oh yes, a typical oldnat length and style response. Is OldNat Scottish? |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 21:03:03 GMT
So is that the football team you support? |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on May 16, 2023 21:04:23 GMT
Oh yes, a typical oldnat length and style response. Is OldNat Scottish? He's English and very proud of it. I believe that him and Mercian are twins. (I might be joking). Welcome FM by the way. |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 21:11:05 GMT
He's English and very proud of it. I believe that him and Mercian are twins. (I might be joking). Welcome FM by the way. Thanks Dave. I knew a bloke called Dave a while back - played jazz trumpet. Not you I suppose? He was very good if that helps your memory. |
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Post by alec on May 16, 2023 21:14:46 GMT
eor - On sick leave, I really don't buy that argument about some kind of shift in attitudes. To me this smacks of honing in on one small detail, and producing a plausible sounding reason for some of it, while ignoring the bloody great elephant breathing down your neck. Very like the arguments on some kind of lockdown inspired culture change leading to children being less bothered about going to school. Everyone goes silent when I point out countries without lockdowns are also experiencing high student absence once there is widespread covid, and again when I point out that teacher sickness is also at record levels. In this case, yes, there may be some influence from greater awareness of mental health issues on short term sick leave, but that was well underway before the pandemic. But's it's also well documented that among the plethora of symptoms of covid, anxiety and depression are pretty common. Everyone forgets that. Staying away from work when feeling unwell could also have an effect around the margins, but again, think of the elephant behind you; you've zoomed in on a couple of small factors which might influence short term sick leave, but perhaps ignored the correlated massive rise in long term sick leave. That isn't affected by an enhanced readiness to take the day off with a minor sniffle. When you come out of the weeds and look around, all of the data is completely consistent with the impacts of a novel pathogen which has a range of short and long term, minor and severe health impacts. For context, this is the graph of long term sick leave that some are trying to claim shows a rising trend before the pandemic - /photo/1 Flatlining with a bit of wobbling 2016 - 2020, with a long term decline for a decade and a half before that, before exploding as soon as covid hit. I just can't understand why people are so keen to try to explain all of this away. When you look at the data, it's absolutely f@cking obvious what happened.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on May 16, 2023 21:32:52 GMT
Now you are just being silly. I know the history of these isles just as well as you do. Wales, as you say, forms part of the Kingdom of England as a result of the Act of Union of 1536. There was never a Act of Union with Cornwall (conquored by Wessex, not England, by the 840s at the latest) or Berwick. They are legally integral parts of England. If you are going to take that line you need to stop talking about Scotland as a unit and begin mentioning areas such as the Lordship of the Isles for example, annexed as a result of Scottish royal imperialism.
The 1536 "Act of Union" deprived Wales of any distinctive status that it had enjoyed, and was simply an Act of the English Parliament to enforce its incorporation as fully part of England.
James IV didn't bother with such niceties when he used his military strength to incorporate the Lordship of the Isles into Scotland.
My point, however, was that the imperial expansions of both the English and Scottish crowns created the states that signed the Treaty of Union in 1706.
Including the names of previously independent territories (whether bracketed or not) is an irrelevance. Wales didn't merit a mention in that Treaty, any more than Mercia did.Before the Act of Union of 1536 (actually the Acts of 1536 and 1542) the governance of Wales and the Marches was significantly different to that of England. The Tudor acts: shired the marcher lordships, imposed English laws and county administrations on Wales, resulted in Welsh shires and County boroughs sending 24 MPs to Parliament in Westminster, refurbished the Council of Wales and set up new Courts of Great Sessions to administer the region's defences and judiciary, made Wales subject to the full operation of royal writs and imposed English principles of land tenure - with the 1543 Act requiring that Welsh customs of tenure and inheritance were phased out and English rules replace them. In short those Acts made Wales and the Marches a functional part of England only marginally different from the rest of the Kingdom. (see "History of Britain", Ed Kenneth O Morgan, 1993, Chapter 5 - The Tudors, John Guy, p289) But getting to the point - I mentioned Wales - in brackets - because of its current 21st century status as a recognised polity within the UK. I am well aware that of what the situation was in 1707 and that the act of Union was between the Kingdoms of England and Scotland (Ireland not following until 1800). |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 16, 2023 21:37:01 GMT
Arsonist who burnt down everyone's house admits that no unicorns emerged from the smouldering ashes. youtu.be/AY6JubMNNVAjib as the architect of your beloved Brexit has now declared it a total failure who do you blame? |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 16, 2023 22:11:07 GMT
Before the Act of Union of 1536 (actually the Acts of 1536 and 1542) the governance of Wales and the Marches was significantly different to that of England. The Tudor acts: shired the marcher lordships, imposed English laws and county administrations on Wales, resulted in Welsh shires and County boroughs sending 24 MPs to Parliament in Westminster, refurbished the Council of Wales and set up new Courts of Great Sessions to administer the region's defences and judiciary, made Wales subject to the full operation of royal writs and imposed English principles of land tenure - with the 1543 Act requiring that Welsh customs of tenure and inheritance were phased out and English rules replace them. In short those Acts made Wales and the Marches a functional part of England only marginally different from the rest of the Kingdom. (see "History of Britain", Ed Kenneth O Morgan, 1993, Chapter 5 - The Tudors, John Guy, p289) But getting to the point - I mentioned Wales - in brackets - because of its current 21st century status as a recognised polity within the UK. I am well aware that of what the situation was in 1707 and that the act of Union was between the Kingdoms of England and Scotland (Ireland not following until 1800).
To anyone in Scotland who is aware of the changes in local government here in the 20th century, based on UK governments "reforming" our local administration systems on the basis of what was currently fashionable in England, the story will be sadly familiar. |
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Post by eor on May 16, 2023 22:20:06 GMT
eor - On sick leave, I really don't buy that argument about some kind of shift in attitudes. To me this smacks of honing in on one small detail, and producing a plausible sounding reason for some of it, while ignoring the bloody great elephant breathing down your neck. More that it's something I've tracked and analysed in our own data for a number of years, particularly with regard to very short term absence, 1 or 2 days at a time vs slightly longer short-term absences. Nothing to do with COVID per se, just a business focus. And the shifts in that data, and the reasons people state for their sickness, those are very consistent with what I'm describing. As is the exponential increase in mental health absences - and that did begin pre-COVID. It's partially offset by a reduction in highly generic or Unknown absences, but only partially. It's one business, and the dataset isn't brilliant given the amount of self-description required and other complexities that influence the reasons selected. But it's a fairly large business and it's where my reaction to the 12% rise in short term absence stat comes from - nothing to do with being keen to explain away elephants of any kind. |
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Post by joeboy on May 16, 2023 23:08:02 GMT
I think they have to take an oath first before perjury becomes an issue. My experience as a civil servant of parliamentary committees was that an oath was very rarely taken. That said, I think they insisted Boris take an oath before his evidence on Partygate, which could then leave him open to a perjury charge if he was found to have lied. I'm happy to be corrected on this if I'm talking rubbish! , my understanding was that the parliamentary committees were staffed by clerks of the parliament who are not members of the civil service. Independence of parliament and all that. That's true about the Clerks. To clarify, I attended quite a few committee session with Minister's or senior officials from my department. To be honest I can't remember anyone ever taking an oath, so it's not normal to do so in my experience. I'd imagine lying under oath to a parliamentary committee amounted to perjury, but I've no idea if anyone has ever been charged with the offence. |
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Post by mercian on May 16, 2023 23:09:43 GMT
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Post by mercian on May 16, 2023 23:11:08 GMT
Gives him something else in common with Barney Crockett (former SLab Provost of Aberdeen), whom denizens of the old UKPR1 will remember regularly used to regale us with his belief that the UK Union would expand to incorporate various (unidentified) territories. Well I suppose getting Anjou back would be a start. |
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Post by mercian on May 16, 2023 23:14:31 GMT
Perhaps if Scotland was renamed “Northern England” and Wales became “Western England” (British Isles = English Isles of course) then maybe we would all feel more united as a single nation. Watched an old clip of Kennedy giving Churchill an award in a tv documentary last night and he referred to the UK as “England” anyway. (Northern Ireland can - obviously - become part of Eire, whether they like it or not.) In the eighteenth century Scotland was referred to as North Britain, and England (and presumably Wales) as South Britain in some quarters. The rot set in when we let them all have their own football teams but otherwise a UK team would have had no-one to play. EDIT: I see that pjw1961 bear me to it |
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Post by mercian on May 16, 2023 23:20:48 GMT
Oh yes, a typical oldnat length and style response. Is OldNat Scottish? 🤣 EDIT: Sorry to all for the multiple posts but I've been out playing chess. @fecklessmiser It's good to have a new member with a sense of humour. Things can get a bit pompous here sometimes as I'm sure you've noticed in your career as a lurker. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 16, 2023 23:34:48 GMT
I saw something about a controversy about SATS in English schools. Are these tests common to all pupils of a certain age (which seems rather a foolish idea) as opposed to teachers setting an appropriate test to confirm their estimate that an individual child has secured competence at the level of performance they were aiming for?
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Post by eor on May 16, 2023 23:39:53 GMT
Meanwhile across the pond... it's yet another Trump parallel world.
No evident polling impact yet from the civil suit that awarded damages for sexual assault and defamation against Trump.
Largely because there's almost no polling happening, despite the above.
Partly that's because polling at this stage for would-be Presidential candidates is historically almost meaningless so is rarely bothered with. And partly it's because whilst no other candidate there's ever been could hope to continue after far less serious findings, there is also a general presumption that, because it's Trump, even this just won't matter.
Tho one of the major reasons why polling at this stage is so useless is that traditionally candidates tend to suffer from huge recognition issues outside their home state area until the campaign properly gets going in January and suddenly everyone tunes in, whereupon candidates gain traction fast or drop out quickly. Except that doesn't apply to Trump, only to his rivals - there hasn't been an election in I think about a century where one of the hopeful nominees is also the former President.
Likewise there is *some* polling history on incumbent Presidents and the kind of polling numbers that put them in a good position to win again... but none of that was ever counted with a former President in the field from the start, so again it's pretty meaningless.
There's also never been an election featuring an incumbent President seeking re-election where age and mental decline were such clear issues, or so well understood.
Personally I still think it comes down to whether Trump can push DeSantis out of the race before it properly starts. If he can, he's likely the Republican nominee - if he can't, then I'd expect others to quickly get involved too, and Trump will probably be toast and the party may well find someone other than DeSantis.
I also think that, as it stands right now, Trump is the only GOP candidate that Biden is in with a decent chance of beating**. And that the only way Trump can win in 2024 is if he's running against Biden.
It's always about him, isn't it?
(** Yes I know the polls will give numbers for matchups with other candidates, but even setting aside what we know here about hypothetical polling, then comparing an incumbent President to a largely unknown figure who may not even run is meaningless)
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 16, 2023 23:47:30 GMT
I've seen a number of individual tweets from the NatCon fascistfest, but reading lots of them from this twitter feed is really scary. I'm acquainted with a number of SCon folk and, in the main, they are perfectly decent people with whom I just have political disagreements.
What concerns me is that some of them might "have some sympathy" with "some of their ideas" and be prepared to go along with that agenda - albeit with reservations, since it resonates with some of their existing prejudices.twitter.com/NatConTalk
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