steve
Member
Posts: 12,716
|
Post by steve on Jul 14, 2023 17:25:17 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Rafwan on Jul 14, 2023 18:22:11 GMT
Since Trevor has got predictably excited about the Newham Boelyn result it might be worth reproducing this account of the background from a Newham local on the "Vote UK Forum" on proboards. "Mirza and his group broke with Labour in a particularly nasty internal spat in the post-Corbyn era. The Newham Mayor, Rokhsana Fiaz, had used the Corbynites to depose veteran Mayor and staunch Blairite Sir Robin Wales and they had delivered her the Mayoralty in 2018 and a clean sweep of the Borough. However, the coming of Starmer changed the internal Labour landscape and Fiaz quickly saw which way the wind was blowing and pledged her allegiance to Starmer and to his anti-Corbyn activities which led to a huge row within Newham Labour and the departure of Mirza and his cohorts who I thought were going to form their own group but in 2022 stood as Independents. Mirza stood as Mayor but finished fourth - he's had some form of redemption with this success. I know he had quite a group of activists and followers so presumably they worked Boleyn very hard and have got a tremendous result. Were Labour complacent? Perhaps - they were working the wrong Ward yesterday but the margin of Mirza's win was notable and he joins the two Green councillors on the Opposition benches at the Town Hall. The Greens badly under-performed - I thought they would run Labour close but this was a disappointing performance while the Conservative vote disintegrated as the Party abandoned the seat - in 2022 the top Conservative in Boleyn polled 538 votes, last night the candidate got 69 votes so where did all the Tories go? Perhaps they weren't Conservatives at all but simply anti-Labour. I wonder whether Mirza will stand in East Ham next year - my information is Sir Stephen Timms will run again for the seat." The idea that Rokhsana Fiaz was delivered by ‘Corbynites’ is plain wrong, held only by a few old Robin Wales stalwarts. Newham is riven by apolitical factions and has been for years as evidenced by the fact that both CLPs have been suspended for years. It is controlled entirely by the region. |
|
|
|
Post by shevii on Jul 14, 2023 18:39:03 GMT
Since Trevor has got predictably excited about the Newham Boelyn result it might be worth reproducing this account of the background from a Newham local on the "Vote UK Forum" on proboards. "Mirza and his group broke with Labour in a particularly nasty internal spat in the post-Corbyn era. The Newham Mayor, Rokhsana Fiaz, had used the Corbynites to depose veteran Mayor and staunch Blairite Sir Robin Wales and they had delivered her the Mayoralty in 2018 and a clean sweep of the Borough. However, the coming of Starmer changed the internal Labour landscape and Fiaz quickly saw which way the wind was blowing and pledged her allegiance to Starmer and to his anti-Corbyn activities which led to a huge row within Newham Labour and the departure of Mirza and his cohorts who I thought were going to form their own group but in 2022 stood as Independents. Mirza stood as Mayor but finished fourth - he's had some form of redemption with this success. I know he had quite a group of activists and followers so presumably they worked Boleyn very hard and have got a tremendous result. Were Labour complacent? Perhaps - they were working the wrong Ward yesterday but the margin of Mirza's win was notable and he joins the two Green councillors on the Opposition benches at the Town Hall. The Greens badly under-performed - I thought they would run Labour close but this was a disappointing performance while the Conservative vote disintegrated as the Party abandoned the seat - in 2022 the top Conservative in Boleyn polled 538 votes, last night the candidate got 69 votes so where did all the Tories go? Perhaps they weren't Conservatives at all but simply anti-Labour. I wonder whether Mirza will stand in East Ham next year - my information is Sir Stephen Timms will run again for the seat." Very difficult to judge something as internal as this without really knowing the situation first hand and the players involved. I read up plenty on this after the win but it's all relatively biased accounts on both sides. Definitely a purge going on, whether justified or not, and Mirza was suspended for the sin of liking a tweet while he was in the process of attempting to get elected to the NEC and resigned from the Labour Party prior to any hearings or judgments. Newham was also a constituency party that was run by central office while they investigated complaints but again difficult to judge who was in the right, although Peter Oborne (former Tory turned Corbinysta so proving mercian theory that as you get older you get wiser) had some strong words to say about the conduct of the National Labour Party alleging racial profiling and suggesting the police should have got involved. But the other side of the coin might be that there was unsavoury stuff going on in the local party that needed dealing with. Ultimately this could be local issues anyway and if a council closes the City Farm, upsets some residents over LTNs as well as widespread fly tipping then you can see where disgruntled residents who always voted Labour might be open to a protest vote. I have a friend who lives in Newham and she's reporting fly tipping on her street almost daily it seems. |
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,604
Member is Online
|
Post by pjw1961 on Jul 14, 2023 19:11:08 GMT
Rafwan, shevii - I very much don't have a dog in the fight in Newham; my only point, which I think you would both agree with, is that this is very much about local Newham politics and the wider significance beyond there is strictly limited (although there are other boroughs with similar local issues). On a different point, I think that Councils that are exclusively dominated by one party for decades (I used to work for a Conservative example in Essex) make for bad government and also make for internal party splits - if there is not much opposition the ruling party will tend to fight with each other. This is another reason for proportional representation; even in somewhere like Newham where Labour are capable of winning over 50% of the vote there would at least be a sizable opposition.
|
|
|
|
Post by pete on Jul 14, 2023 20:53:27 GMT
Just seen a note about sea surface temperatures around Florida showing much of it is 32-33C. That's hot tub levels - in the seas. As a species, our ability to ignore f@cking great alarm bells and carry on as if everything is fine is astonishing. Don't look up! |
|
|
|
Post by Rafwan on Jul 14, 2023 20:53:29 GMT
pjw1961 You are certainly right on the first point (local strife with no wider significance). But on the second I don’t know. The mayoralty system creates enormous powers of patronage, which undermines and debilitates the local party. Robin Wales did a lot of good stuff as mayor, but in the end gathered too much power to himself. He fought a fine campaign to keep his position and, all credit to him, he accepted his deselection with good grace (unlike many). But during the 80s and 90s there was a leader and committee system with distributed power and where councillors had much greater ability to contribute. And there was much more incentive for involvement in the local party.
|
|
|
|
Post by pete on Jul 14, 2023 20:57:30 GMT
No your not missing manifest anti semitism.! I didn't think I was. Maybe I am. :-( Takes great strength to question your self, I applaud you. |
|
Mr Poppy
Member
Teaching assistant and now your elected PM
Posts: 3,774
|
Post by Mr Poppy on Jul 14, 2023 21:29:29 GMT
Since Trevor has got predictably excited about the Newham Boelyn result ... Very difficult to judge something as internal as this without really knowing the situation first hand and the players involved. I read up plenty on this after the win but it's all relatively biased accounts on both sides. Definitely a purge going on, whether justified or not, and Mirza was suspended for the sin of liking a tweet while he was in the process of attempting to get elected to the NEC and resigned from the Labour Party prior to any hearings or judgments. Newham was also a constituency party that was run by central office while they investigated complaints but again difficult to judge who was in the right, although Peter Oborne (former Tory turned Corbinysta so proving mercian theory that as you get older you get wiser) had some strong words to say about the conduct of the National Labour Party alleging racial profiling and suggesting the police should have got involved. But the other side of the coin might be that there was unsavoury stuff going on in the local party that needed dealing with. Ultimately this could be local issues anyway and if a council closes the City Farm, upsets some residents over LTNs as well as widespread fly tipping then you can see where disgruntled residents who always voted Labour might be open to a protest vote. I have a friend who lives in Newham and she's reporting fly tipping on her street almost daily it seems. 'Stats for Lefties' perhaps got a bit "excited" and as per the last trolling effort from a Starmer sock puppet then if anyone wants to take up their info with them then they can of course do so. LAB is not my party but it is interesting to hear from the folks that Starmer had perhaps hoped to have silenced. It appears some are not going as quietly as Starmer had perhaps hoped? I expect, even go on the record to 'predict', that the not quite so easily silenced lefties who have been purged/quit become a bigger problem for Starmer-LAB into GE'24. Its amazing how many people seem to able to 'predict' stuff after it happened - maybe 'Captain Hindsight' has hordes of offspring, minions of 'Lieutenant Hindsights' always wise after the event pretending they predicted everything exactly as it came to pass (which of course anyone can pretend to have done after it has happened - the exact length of Brexit negotiations being another example from just this page of UKPR2)  |
|
Mr Poppy
Member
Teaching assistant and now your elected PM
Posts: 3,774
|
Post by Mr Poppy on Jul 14, 2023 21:36:09 GMT
Well as we all know then his dad was a tool maker. However, there are certainly some folks on the Far-Left who really don't like Starmer and what he has done to LAB since he put it back under NewLAB management. Some of them do seem quite excitable..
|
|
|
|
Post by mercian on Jul 14, 2023 21:38:41 GMT
Its amazing how many people seem to able to 'predict' stuff after it happened - maybe 'Captain Hindsight' has hordes of offspring, minions of 'Lieutenant Hindsights' always wise after the event pretending they predicted everything exactly as it came to pass (which of course anyone can pretend to have done after it has happened - the exact length of Brexit negotiations being another example from just this page of UKPR2) Yes I'd be interested to see their predictions for the next 5 years. Not that I could be bothered to check the accuracy in 5 years' time even if I'm still alive. Another thing that gets me is the statements like "If only x had happened, then y would definitely have followed and things would be so much better". If only I had such god-like powers of prediction. On second thoughts perhaps not - I prefer to deal with reality and not fantasy wish-fulfilment. |
|
|
|
Post by mercian on Jul 14, 2023 21:39:58 GMT
|
|
Dave
Member
... I'm dreaming dreams, I'm scheming schemes, I'm building castles high ..
Posts: 818
|
Post by Dave on Jul 14, 2023 21:48:22 GMT
Well as we all know then his dad was a tool maker. However, there are certainly some folks on the Far-Left who really don't like Starmer and what he has done to LAB since he put it back under NewLAB management. Some of them do seem quite excitable.. You’ve out-Trevored yourself. |
|
Dave
Member
... I'm dreaming dreams, I'm scheming schemes, I'm building castles high ..
Posts: 818
|
Post by Dave on Jul 14, 2023 21:49:24 GMT
Yep, I bet Starmer had chandeliers and a butler when he was a kid. |
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,604
Member is Online
|
Post by pjw1961 on Jul 14, 2023 21:59:09 GMT
pjw1961 You are certainly right on the first point (local strife with no wider significance). But on the second I don’t know. The mayoralty system creates enormous powers of patronage, which undermines and debilitates the local party. Robin Wales did a lot of good stuff as mayor, but in the end gathered too much power to himself. He fought a fine campaign to keep his position and, all credit to him, he accepted his deselection with good grace (unlike many). But during the 80s and 90s there was a leader and committee system with distributed power and where councillors had much greater ability to contribute. And there was much more incentive for involvement in the local party. Most non-Mayor councils these days have cabinets, which means 8 to 10 councillors get to do something useful and the rest have to be content with 'scrutiny' and the like. Still be better with PR though  |
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,604
Member is Online
|
Post by pjw1961 on Jul 14, 2023 22:03:31 GMT
Well as we all know then his dad was a tool maker. However, there are certainly some folks on the Far-Left who really don't like Starmer and what he has done to LAB since he put it back under NewLAB management. Some of them do seem quite excitable.. So what? My indisputably working class parents lived in a semi-detached house in Chelmsford that they bought for £1,750 in 1957. It is now worth £450,000. That the Starmer family home is worth £950,000 now just tells you about house price inflation in Surrey. What did they buy it for? |
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,604
Member is Online
|
Post by pjw1961 on Jul 14, 2023 22:05:54 GMT
By the way: "Starmer sock puppet" - very amusing, gave me a good laugh.  I might make use of that. |
|
|
|
Post by mercian on Jul 14, 2023 22:14:06 GMT
Yep, I bet Starmer had chandeliers and a butler when he was a kid. Of course not, but it's hardly poverty. |
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,604
Member is Online
|
Post by pjw1961 on Jul 14, 2023 22:21:20 GMT
Yep, I bet Starmer had chandeliers and a butler when he was a kid. Of course not, but it's hardly poverty. Most working class people don't live in poverty - or at least they didn't back in the day before all the anti-trade union legislation. My parents weren't poor but neither were they rich - i.e. like most people. |
|
Dave
Member
... I'm dreaming dreams, I'm scheming schemes, I'm building castles high ..
Posts: 818
|
Post by Dave on Jul 14, 2023 22:48:13 GMT
Yep, I bet Starmer had chandeliers and a butler when he was a kid. Of course not, but it's hardly poverty. Why mention ‘poverty’? If Trevor had been more honest in his posting above / fully researched that clip he posted above (delete as you feel applicable) he could have given those remarks the correct context … news.sky.com/story/amp/our-phone-was-cut-off-months-at-a-time-sir-keir-starmer-reveals-his-familys-struggles-to-pay-bills-during-childhood-12686618Starmer explicitly said he wasn’t claiming to have been bought up in great poverty. He did say that his family’s phone was cut off for months on end. That type of inability to pay bills is happening to an increasing percentage of our population who have never been in that position before. It is something that is befalling more and more of us, and is at least in part due to the politics and actions of politicians that Trevor has for years championed, defended and urged onwards. Look, we know why Trev does it. He makes out Starmer is a Tory and he’d be comfortable with him in charge. Yet, he posts propagandist drivel like this. Why? Because he doesn’t want Starmer to be elected. He’s not that comfortable with the idea at all. Because for one thing, Starmer isn’t a Tory. Trev’s a bit anxious truth be told and easily seen through. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2023 1:28:12 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2023 1:47:28 GMT
|
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,716
|
Post by steve on Jul 15, 2023 1:53:17 GMT
|
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,499
Member is Online
|
Post by neilj on Jul 15, 2023 4:58:52 GMT
He's unlikely to be the only one, out of self interest if nothing else www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/14/no-point-climbing-the-greasy-pole-tory-ministers-want-out-in-reshuffle'With a general election approaching, some Conservative ministers fear they won’t just be out of government in 18 months’ time but ejected from the House of Commons altogether. With that in mind, and talk of a reshuffle next Friday growing, some admit privately they have signalled a desire to move to the backbenches. Doing so allows them to start running down the clock on the up-to-two-year ban that can be imposed on taking up a private sector job after leaving Whitehall' The boat is sinking, get on the life boats, Cabinet Ministers first |
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,499
Member is Online
|
Post by neilj on Jul 15, 2023 5:54:58 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2023 7:02:01 GMT
That looks like a perfect opportunity for more contracting out to the private sector ...
|
|
|
|
Post by davem on Jul 15, 2023 7:27:54 GMT
That looks like a perfect opportunity for more contracting out to the private sector ...
I remember when Local Education Authorities used to have teams of Education Welfare Officers, their job was to visit the homes of children not attending school and bring them in. They also worked directly with the family to try to tackle the underlying issues causing repeated absences. However this was seen as red tape and phased out as the money was coming from the LEA budget not the school budget. |
|
|
|
Post by moby on Jul 15, 2023 7:37:42 GMT
It seems playing both sides may be finally running out of steam for Erdogan; rampant inflation and economic realities seem to have brought another populist to heel. Being inside big institutions like the EU and NATO seems to be the preferable and logical choice of most States when times get tough. Whatever happened to the bullish brexiteer prediction regarding the EU that brexit had started a process in which the whole rotten edifice is about to crumble. We hear nothing about this narrative from the naysaying doom mongers now of course. It has been shown to be patently wrong. The new narrative it seems is to highlight divisions within the left, or alternatively say the left is morphing into the Tories or again alternatively berate the lefts 'Captain hindsight' tendencies. How predictable and how risible this is. I ask myself how is it possible to be so wrong about everything and have so little self awareness at the same time. It's likely if your political judgements are poor, people are hardly likely to give much credence to your present iterations, no matter how often repeated. Just saying!😗 www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66188739 |
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,512
|
Post by Danny on Jul 15, 2023 8:12:18 GMT
[/div][/quote]trouble is, child catchers have to be paid. Local authorities have fired them. The briefing room progeam yesterday actually suggested two specific reasons for increased child absence. One was middle class parents working at home more after covid who therefore are able to mind their kids during the day and so are more likely to let them stay home if a bit ill instead of sending to school anyway. And growing numbers who refuse to send their kids because the school doesnt have resources either for special needs or theyll just get beaten up. |
|
|
|
Post by somerjohn on Jul 15, 2023 8:15:12 GMT
Moby: "how is it possible to be so wrong about everything and have so little self awareness at the same time."
I came across the phrase, 'the arrogance of ignorance' the other day. Can't remember the source, but I do like a pithy aphorism.
|
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,716
|
Post by steve on Jul 15, 2023 8:24:21 GMT
davemI recall shortly after retiring from the Met considering a job with my then local secondary school as a truancy officer. It was a school that has a very good reputation for value added but also largely because of the catchment area a significant truancy problem. I suggested some measures I think could have encouraged even some of the long term non attendees back in school using some of the methods I'd learned as a firearms officer, I'm pretty confident they would have worked (they didn't involve firearms). The genuine look of horror at the thought of having the massively disruptive persistent non attendees back in their well ordered classes was a sight to behold.
|
|
I might make use of that. 
