|
|
Post by davem on Jul 12, 2023 23:40:31 GMT
No we have not upped our game. We are just telling people what we have done, while the Tory has claimed to do things he has never done. What’s more used the same claim several times. There are several cases where he claimed med to have reported problems on his Facebook page, only for us to find out he had never done so and then report them ourselves and find that they were sorted within 24 hours. We had to respond to his lies. Improving communications with your electorate is upping your game IMO. Not in my book, we are not doing anything more to improve the community, just cutting down more trees to make the paper to send the letters. If this meant we were doing more things to improve the community I would agree. Having to respond to lies is taking up time we could be dealing with resident’s issues. |
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,331
|
Post by Danny on Jul 12, 2023 23:40:42 GMT
ISW had an interesting report today that a Russian general had been replaced for demanding that his troops needed to be relieved from the line to rest and recover from losses. The inference being there arent any replacements.
|
|
|
|
Post by mercian on Jul 12, 2023 23:43:41 GMT
Improving communications with your electorate is upping your game IMO. Not in my book, we are not doing anything more to improve the community, just cutting down more trees to make the paper to send the letters. If this meant we were doing more things to improve the community I would agree. Having to respond to lies is taking up time we could be dealing with resident’s issues. Email hasn't reached your neck of the woods then? And of course keeping your electors in the dark was a great idea. 🙄 |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2023 0:12:05 GMT
It's pretty sleazy regardless of the sex of the participants. Edwards was nearly 60 when it started and the boy was a teenager. It does seem quite common for wealthy older men (and sometimes women) to go after much younger partners but always worth the attention of the tabloid press from their point of view. In addition of course Edwards is still married, so again not illegal but tabloid-worthy. Several other incidents seem to be coming to light, so it could be a pattern of behaviour. Social apps such as grindr are a meat market. Go pick the best available talent at that time. Thats kinda the point of the thing, though you can use it as you wish and explain you are looking for one off or long term, whether you are single or not, and so on. I dont know how heterosexual apps compare, these are men accommodating men. It is at least said that women are pickier. Hard to know to what extent these are socially conditioned stereotypes. I find some of the sensibilities expressed eg by some feminists on womans hour from time to time, utterly insane. But some women do too. Who doesnt want to be seen as a sex object?
Its clear younger people are more sexually active than their predecessors in recent history, and also much less concerned about straight/gay/etc typecasting. Percentage identifying as non straight seems to be converging on at least 10%. And its still possible the other 90% are still lying. General consensus seems to be sexuality is more a continuum than an either/or. All this has been shoehorned under a veneer of conformity and respectability in the last hundred years, not sure when that began.
Something you wouldn't expect to see every day on an ostensibly polling website, I suspect. In any event, I would think that ship sailed many years ago for most of the UKPR2 demographic, except in cases of extreme vanity, perhaps. |
|
|
|
Post by ptarmigan on Jul 13, 2023 0:17:07 GMT
Irrespective of anything else, the Sun implying criminality, and that Edwards had been paying for explicit images of a child (now debunked by the Met), is utterly irresponsible gutter journalism (that Edwards has a history of depression makes me feel even more queasy about this story). It's not unknown for adults to have these sort of transactional relationships involving porn and sex - perhaps the Sun fancies hunting down all OnlyFans users and notifying their employers? I'm not sure I'm able to see any "public interest" angle in this story at all. It's such a shame that Leveson basically amounted to nothing - the printed press is such a toxic influence.
|
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,567
|
Post by pjw1961 on Jul 13, 2023 4:32:23 GMT
How would you fare if some tabloid decided to trawl through every thing you have done in your life, publish it in a skewed way, give you no right of reply, and destroyed your reputation permanently regardless of whether you are eventually found guilty or innocent? I have zero time for hypocritical 'Christian' morality (Jesus wasn't too keen on it either - "let him who is without sin cast the first stone" etc.). As a left libertarian my guiding principle is consent - those who can't consent (children, people with certain mental conditions, animals) must be protected, likewise the law has decided that you can't consent to be murdered or suffer grievous bodily harm, which seems fair enough to me, and finally you need to be aware of power imbalance situations in the workplace for example. But IMO anything else consenting adults want to do with each other is entirely their own business and the state, the press and assorted self-righteous busybodies should go sling their hook. Does that apply to Prince Andrew's alleged escapades? The tabloids wouldn't publish this stuff unless it attracted readers or visitors to their websites. Anyway as it happens I had a very enjoyable relationship with a lady in her late forties when I was in my mid-twenties (before I was married of course). Publish and be damned! 🤣 It would apply to Prince Andrew as the girl in his case was 17 and so under age; some of Epstein and Maxwell's other victims were even younger. On the other hand if you recollect the Max Mosley case I agree with Mosley - his privacy was indeed violated and the fact the the public were interested in his case is not the same as 'public interest' A case of legitimate public interest in something not illegal would be genuine hypocrisy. A politician or religious figure who was preaching 'traditional family values' and condemning others for breaching them but who turned out to have a string of secret lovers would be fair game for exposure. But the media wanting to make money by publishing salacious stuff to titillate their readers is not 'public interest' at all. |
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,567
|
Post by pjw1961 on Jul 13, 2023 4:33:13 GMT
As you don't have a womb, I am not sure your opinion is all that relevant. I would be happy for abortion law to be made only by women. Well in that case your opinion isn't relevant either, and you raised the subject. Unless you've been masquerading. Anyway, yes that law to be made by women seems reasonable. I agree with you that my opinion doesn't matter either. |
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,618
Member is Online
|
Post by steve on Jul 13, 2023 6:04:19 GMT
|
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,618
Member is Online
|
Post by steve on Jul 13, 2023 6:09:05 GMT
pjw1961If I recall correctly the allegation against the nonce Prince was one of sexual assault. His mother paid off the claimant with millions of our money. As such her age wasn't the primary factor.
|
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,362
Member is Online
|
Post by neilj on Jul 13, 2023 6:18:22 GMT
With 9 defeats in the Lords last night, will the Lords continue to try and ammend it
Will the Government use the Parliament Act if it comes down to it
Last time it was used was the 2004 Hunting ban
The there is barely enough time now, although the Government may want to go into the next election claiming they would of stopped the boats if only our sovereign Parliament had not taken back control and stopped us...
|
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,362
Member is Online
|
Post by neilj on Jul 13, 2023 6:22:12 GMT
Economy has stalled, which I suppose is what the Government wants if it's main priority is reducing inflation
If they carry on they should get us in recession, result for Sunak...
|
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,331
|
Post by Danny on Jul 13, 2023 6:26:56 GMT
Story this morning Greek authorities caused the sinking of the refugee boat in attempting to tow it. That survivors were threatened not to say anything about this.
BBC seems to have unearthed another story about refugees being coerced into giving false evidence that certain people were people smugglers. Someone mentioned that we do have navy patrol boats who could be doing this sort of thing. I wonder if it is still the case the navy has actually refused to do this sort of thing. That they still maintain their professional and legal obligation would be to take onboard these people and then land them in Britain to be formally recognised as refugees?
|
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,362
Member is Online
|
Post by neilj on Jul 13, 2023 6:41:16 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by barbara on Jul 13, 2023 6:43:55 GMT
Just on reproduction, having children is not a problem but having more than two is. If no one had more than two children, and given some people would have one or none, the world population would fall. To achieve this needs women to have equality, education and control over their own bodies through access to contraception and abortion. The evidence is clear that where this applies women choose to have fewer children (no draconian state intervention needed). The 'new right' are of course fighting hard against all of that. Well I've done my bit. When my niece berates me for having a large car and taking cruise holidays I remind her that my childless ecological footprint is much smaller than her three child one!  |
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,331
|
Post by Danny on Jul 13, 2023 6:55:17 GMT
Who doesnt want to be seen as a sex object? Something you wouldn't expect to see every day on an ostensibly polling website, I suspect. In any event, I would think that ship sailed many years ago for most of the UKPR2 demographic, except in cases of extreme vanity, perhaps. Not clear exactly what is the average age on here, but I seem to recall viagra was heralded as encouraging a whole wave of new sexual activity amongst the oldest of us as demonstrated by a surge of STDs in the older generations, ie some objective evidence. But in terms of unassisted performance too you shouldnt write people off simply because of age. Its rather stupid to automatically assume that a 20 year old is never going to be attracted to a 60 years old, because it does happen. It may indeed not be unrelated to the phenomenon of mail order brides for older men too, but all history has been full of recognition that wealth is as important in choosing a permanent partner as looks, and looks is only approximately related to age. Then, we have the question of how much someone works on their personal fitness, and of course such things as whether they have a big dick (no intentional mysogeny here, some women too no doubt will have better attributes than others). The NHS provision now of PREP on demand to prevent spread of HIV seems to have created a revolution where gay men (straight too presumably) have returned to anal sex. If a person has many sexual partners, then I guess its much less about finding the perfect person but rather today's shag. If you are up for it, and your face isnt instantly recogniseable, then the option of going to a public sauna and having a one of encounter has been available ever since this was legalised maybe in the 90s (I'd swear I once saw a TV presenter at a cruisy swimming pool, which is maybe as close as he'd dare get). But in more recent years people have instead skipped the travel and entry fee and just found a hookup living locally through a social app. Or indeed, working in the same office. Quite interesting to find out which of your colleagues are also online on one of these apps.
This concept that younger are not interested in older is certainly a statistical finding, but like all statistical averages ignores the outliers. Its a modern myth, age is just one factor, and I dont see any reason why wealth or personailty or intelligence or even fitness are not also obviously considerations. Its totally not stupid that an 18 year old (or for that matter 16 year old) would want an older partner who has a nice house they can enjoy instead of a bedroom back with parents they do not get on with. Or worse. Seems to be a big lack of understanding of the perspective of a youngster looking to better themselves or just have a good time for a few hours. legal suanas didnt even exist when I was young, but through my 50s and now 60s, its never been a problem finding partners in such a place (not that I am seeking 20 year olds, late 30s isnt a bad age for people who are sorted but still fit. Can quite see why the youngest might go for them too). Not wanting to make this personal, its simply the case youngsters do voluntarily choose to do this and if they meet someone suitable its easier to maintain a casual relationship than keep hunting new ones.
And then to get back to this being a political website, we have a very clear difference in political outlook between young and old. And quite obviously, this is part of it. Any polling by age group showing views on this story or the previous Schofield one? Or by sexual preference? Although of course, its likely to under represent the views of the politically unaffiliated, because pollsters arent interested in polling people who dont vote. But those who get voted in still have to rule by consent, and sexual minorities have become increasingly militant in recent years.
Oh, and BBC news seemed to be now questioning whether it was even right to suspend the presenter when its clear he has not done anything illegal. Whether in fact the public see the BBC as being in the wrong by doing so. The question of mental illness seems to be being pushed as an excuse for everything by everyone, whereas in the UK millions of people are on permanent prescriptions for mental ill health. It wasnt a problem before the Sun story. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2023 7:37:18 GMT
Thanks. I hadn't heard the term before. I've never heard of 'New Conservatives' either. I must say I'm not keen on abortions except in cases of rape or if the baby will be horribly handicapped or something, but I wouldn't make them illegal. What is your criterion for " horribly handicapped " ? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2023 7:42:03 GMT
It's pretty sleazy regardless of the sex of the participants. Edwards was nearly 60 when it started and the boy was a teenager. It does seem quite common for wealthy older men (and sometimes women) to go after much younger partners but always worth the attention of the tabloid press from their point of view. In addition of course Edwards is still married, so again not illegal but tabloid-worthy. Several other incidents seem to be coming to light, so it could be a pattern of behaviour. Social apps such as grindr are a meat market. Go pick the best available talent at that time. Thats kinda the point of the thing, though you can use it as you wish and explain you are looking for one off or long term, whether you are single or not, and so on. I dont know how heterosexual apps compare, these are men accommodating men. It is at least said that women are pickier. Hard to know to what extent these are socially conditioned stereotypes. I find some of the sensibilities expressed eg by some feminists on womans hour from time to time, utterly insane. But some woment do too. Who doesnt want to be seen as a sex object?
Its clear younger people are more sexually active than their predecessors in recent history, and also much less concerned about straight/gay/etc typecasting. Percentage identifying as non straight seems to be converging on at least 10%. And its still possible the other 90% are still lying. General consensus seems to be sexuality is more a continuum than an either/or. All this has been shoehorned under a veneer of conformity and respectability in the last hundred years, not sure when that began.
You seem to have a problem understanding the concept of consent ! |
|
steve
Member
Posts: 12,618
Member is Online
|
Post by steve on Jul 13, 2023 7:49:20 GMT
I'm not sure of the relevancy of age disparity between adults in a consensual relationship has anything to do with anyone other than the individuals, it might be of interest to the public but it isn't a matter of legally public interest.
It's just salacious gossip.
National icon Michael Sheen is in a long term relationship with a woman half his age I don't think that's raised the Scums morality radar, why should it it's nothing to do with anyone.
Their own owners previous wives have all been decades younger than Murdoch maybe they should be pursuing him instead.
|
|
|
|
Post by moby on Jul 13, 2023 7:54:00 GMT
Irrespective of anything else, the Sun implying criminality, and that Edwards had been paying for explicit images of a child (now debunked by the Met), is utterly irresponsible gutter journalism (that Edwards has a history of depression makes me feel even more queasy about this story). It's not unknown for adults to have these sort of transactional relationships involving porn and sex - perhaps the Sun fancies hunting down all OnlyFans users and notifying their employers? I'm not sure I'm able to see any "public interest" angle in this story at all. It's such a shame that Leveson basically amounted to nothing - the printed press is such a toxic influence. They have never been held to account and Cameron failed to act when he had the opportunity:- www.theguardian.com/media/2012/nov/29/leveson-report-david-cameron-rejects |
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,331
|
Post by Danny on Jul 13, 2023 7:56:48 GMT
Social apps such as grindr are a meat market. Go pick the best available talent at that time. Thats kinda the point of the thing, though you can use it as you wish and explain you are looking for one off or long term, whether you are single or not, and so on. I dont know how heterosexual apps compare, these are men accommodating men. It is at least said that women are pickier. Hard to know to what extent these are socially conditioned stereotypes. I find some of the sensibilities expressed eg by some feminists on womans hour from time to time, utterly insane. But some woment do too. Who doesnt want to be seen as a sex object? Its clear younger people are more sexually active than their predecessors in recent history, and also much less concerned about straight/gay/etc typecasting. Percentage identifying as non straight seems to be converging on at least 10%. And its still possible the other 90% are still lying. General consensus seems to be sexuality is more a continuum than an either/or. All this has been shoehorned under a veneer of conformity and respectability in the last hundred years, not sure when that began.
You seem to have a problem understanding the concept of consent ! Maybe I am, but if so can you expand on why? Do you mean people being coerced into something? I dont think thats good. Do you mean younger people freely choosing to do something because they want to, but you might believe they dont really understand and are making a free but bad choice which should be legally prevented? Or do you mean that youngsters are deliberately being denied the right to make a free choice by older people who simply do not agree with the beliefs of a younger generation, the whole lab/con, brexit age divide? |
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,331
|
Post by Danny on Jul 13, 2023 8:06:40 GMT
I'm not sure of the relevancy of age disparity between adults in a consensual relationship has anything to do with anyone other than the individuals, it might be of interest to the public but it isn't a matter of legally public interest. It's just salacious gossip. National icon Michael Sheen is in a long term relationship with a woman half his age I don't think that's raised the Scums morality radar, why should it it's nothing to do with anyone. Their own owners previous wives have all been decades younger than Murdoch maybe they should be pursuing him instead. Donald trump b. 1946, Melania trump b. 1970. Interestingly she comes from Yugoslavia and ended up as the first lady in the US. A classic example of a marriage for power and position seemingly. Although she was already very successful before she married Trump. The wikipedia article mentions she posed for 'sexually explicit' photographs in 1996. Seems to have worked for her. If hers was the right choice, why was a similar one by someone else the wrong choice? Its good for a public organisation to purchase photos to be displayed nationally, but bad for a private person to do so which arent going to be widely seen? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2023 8:14:06 GMT
I'm not sure of the relevancy of age disparity between adults in a consensual relationship has anything to do with anyone other than the individuals, I think it is relevant if part of a workplace power dynamic which exerts influence and pressure. |
|
|
|
Post by moby on Jul 13, 2023 8:16:07 GMT
You seem to have a problem understanding the concept of consent ! Maybe I am, but if so can you expand on why? Do you mean people being coerced into something? I dont think thats good. Do you mean younger people freely choosing to do something because they want to, but you might believe they dont really understand and are making a free but bad choice which should be legally prevented? Or do you mean that youngsters are deliberately being denied the right to make a free choice by older people who simply do not agree with the beliefs of a younger generation, the whole lab/con, brexit age divide? A line has to be drawn somewhere for safeguarding reasons. As has been said it's about informed consent. As a society we are thankfully much more aware of this now:- |
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,331
|
Post by Danny on Jul 13, 2023 8:17:00 GMT
I'm not sure of the relevancy of age disparity between adults in a consensual relationship has anything to do with anyone other than the individuals, I think it is relevant if part of a workplace power dynamic which exerts influence and pressure. Haha, honestly, who had more to lose here in either of the recent cases, the high profile news reporter on the younger party? Didnt the younger party hold the power? If you discover your boss is on grindr, which of you is in the weaker position? |
|
Mr Poppy
Member
Teaching assistant and now your elected PM
Posts: 3,774
|
Post by Mr Poppy on Jul 13, 2023 8:20:43 GMT
Just on reproduction, having children is not a problem but having more than two is. If no one had more than two children, and given some people would have one or none, the world population would fall. To achieve this needs women to have equality, education and control over their own bodies through access to contraception and abortion. The evidence is clear that where this applies women choose to have fewer children (no draconian state intervention needed). The 'new right' are of course fighting hard against all of that. That all made sense until the last sentence. Who are the 'new right'? Are they everywhere? Are you talking about the UK? Perhaps you could give a link to your conspiracy theory website. Well since I mentioned eduction then I can't be the 'new right', whoever they are. There is a faction in places like US (and NI) who are anti-abortion. I'll risk walking on a few egg shells and saying that some religions (or at least some factions within religions) who are anti-abortion; actively treat women inferior to men and actively promote high birth rates. Catholics one example but that varies significantly by country (eg Italy has a very low birth rate). From one religious text (and see the Groan link I posted y'day that makes the link between large families and that religion) "Kill not your children for fear of poverty. It is We Who provide for them and for you. Surely, the killing of them is a great sin"www.alislam.org/quran/app/17:32Judaism is a bit more complex: www.jpost.com/judaism/article-707738However, the Torah (written thousands of years ago when things were very different to today) does encourage large families and 'Orthodox Jews' very often have very large number of children. Below is an article covering Africa and their govts could certainly be encouraged (by likes of UN) to do more to discourage larger families:
Why African families are larger than those of other continentstheconversation.com/why-african-families-are-larger-than-those-of-other-continents-84611I don't think it should be UK's role in the World to get some religions/countries to change their ways (at least not directly). However, we can control the numbers of people we allow into UK and ensure once in UK then... well... at least not encourage large families via the abuse of the benefits system (ie I'm glad to see LAB keeping CON's 'two children' approach) |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2023 8:25:29 GMT
I think it is relevant if part of a workplace power dynamic which exerts influence and pressure. Haha, honestly, who had more to lose here in either of the recent cases, the high profile news reporter on the younger party? Didnt the younger party hold the power? If you discover your boss is on grindr, which of you is in the weaker position? An interesting observation. Shows my age.! Maybe the power of social media has destroyed the concepts of "sdult" and "child" in that situation. The law would have to say. |
|
neilj
Member
Posts: 6,362
Member is Online
|
Post by neilj on Jul 13, 2023 8:29:45 GMT
Yougov
|
|
Danny
Member
Posts: 10,331
|
Post by Danny on Jul 13, 2023 8:32:17 GMT
A line has to be drawn somewhere for safeguarding reasons. As has been said it's about informed consent. As a society we are thankfully much more aware of this now:- I can't see how in either of the recent examples there was not informed consent. The risks here are mostly about an organisation like the sun deciding your personal life will be a good story. The risk is the ability of newspapers (etc) to do this. So maybe its their behaviour which should be constrained legally? I have said it before, but the reason so many people in the past got away with abuse is because of secrecy. Because something was illegal and the abused person was taking part in it then they could not speak out. Partly because they might have felt implicated, but probably mostly because they were one party in an almighty scandal which if known would blight the rest of their lives. If it hadnt been a scandal, then no reason not to tell someone what the local priest was suggesting. Tatchell was absolutely correct to say early teens will be angling to do this stuff themselves, and as I have said before much of the Uk population are technically paedophile criminals because of sending each other under age pictures. Its impossible to prevent given the technology, but its utterly absurd that its criminal. And experience suggests that if you go into schools and tell everyone how this is terribly illegal and they mustnt do it, all you do is point out the possibility of doing it (and indeed in this example, that there might be a market for such pictures if you can find a buyer).
The line seems to be in the wrong place, both in the minds of some people, but also in the law in terms of it simply being flouted by so many people.
|
|
pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,567
|
Post by pjw1961 on Jul 13, 2023 8:44:38 GMT
pjw1961 If I recall correctly the allegation against the nonce Prince was one of sexual assault. His mother paid off the claimant with millions of our money. As such her age wasn't the primary factor. I think her inability to consent given her being under 18 would have been a factor. She wasn't actively resisting because she had been extensively groomed by Epstein and Maxwell (their modus operandi was to pick on young girls who were vulnerable in some way). Had she been over 18 it might have been harder to get a conviction. Anyway, we can both agree that was a massively abusive situation which Andrew can scarcely have been unaware of and there is also a clear public interest to report on it. |
|
Mr Poppy
Member
Teaching assistant and now your elected PM
Posts: 3,774
|
Post by Mr Poppy on Jul 13, 2023 8:46:00 GMT
For example see Orban in Hungary rewarding women to breed hordes of children; the Republican Party in the US trying to effectively ban abortion - and also defunding international programmes of fertility control for women. Yes, they are spreading their message everywhere in Europe and North America with great success. There are UK equivalents - including inside Parliament. It's no conspiracy, just follow the mainstream news closely. New Right - 'Alt Right' in US, 'New Conservatives' in UK, etc. publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmallparty/210421/pro-life.htm Thanks. I hadn't heard the term before. I've never heard of 'New Conservatives' either. I must say I'm not keen on abortions except in cases of rape or if the baby will be horribly handicapped or something, but I wouldn't make them illegal. Perhaps pjw1961 should have read his own link before posting it: The ' All-Party Parliamentary Pro-Life Group' in HoC is 9 MPs and Lords (so hardly anyone) and made up of: 3 CON 3 DUP 1 LAB 1 SNP 1 Crossbench The 'New Conservative' group want to reduce UK immigration and are not promoting anything such as "rewarding women to breed hordes of children"*, "trying to effectively ban abortion", "defunding international programmes of fertility control for women". Anyway, a useful reminder why it's not worth reading some of the drivel and "theories" made up by certain people on UKPR2 WRT to "horribly handicapped" then that is sensitive issue but it is covered in the Abortions Act 1967, see:
"3 Abortion for foetal abnormality..."publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmselect/cmsctech/1045/104506.htm * Perhaps as LAB have copied another CON policy then the LAB sock puppets now agree that benefits for children in English families should only extend to two children and not the "hordes" of children that some people choose to have. I'm pretty sure the people mentioned in the Groan piece wouldn't like to be called 'New Conservative'. "Almost a quarter of children in Birmingham Hodge Hill – the seat in England and Wales with the highest proportion of Muslim residents at the time of the census (62.4%) – are affected by the two-child limit"
www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/11/labour-urged-again-to-vow-to-scrap-tories-two-child-benefit-limit# |
|
