pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Jul 12, 2023 21:02:27 GMT
Just on reproduction, having children is not a problem but having more than two is. If no one had more than two children, and given some people would have one or none, the world population would fall. To achieve this needs women to have equality, education and control over their own bodies through access to contraception and abortion. The evidence is clear that where this applies women choose to have fewer children (no draconian state intervention needed). The 'new right' are of course fighting hard against all of that. That all made sense until the last sentence. Who are the 'new right'? Are they everywhere? Are you talking about the UK? Perhaps you could give a link to your conspiracy theory website. For example see Orban in Hungary rewarding women to breed hordes of children; the Republican Party in the US trying to effectively ban abortion - and also defunding international programmes of fertility control for women. Yes, they are spreading their message everywhere in Europe and North America with great success. There are UK equivalents - including inside Parliament. It's no conspiracy, just follow the mainstream news closely. New Right - 'Alt Right' in US, 'New Conservatives' in UK, etc. publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmallparty/210421/pro-life.htm |
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Post by mercian on Jul 12, 2023 21:06:22 GMT
Richard Tice (RUK) is quite right to call it a "shambolic farce" and mock CON HMG for their failure to get Rwanda scheme started* but does Kinnock realise that aping RUK is probably not that smart a move given LAB are almost certainly going to have an OM after GE'24? I agree with this, but, for different resons to those that Trevor puts forward. I am increasingly uneasy with the way that the Labour leasership are going on the issue of refugees / the Rwanda scheme et al. The underlying tone from Labour (and evidenced from Kinnock here) isn't that the scheme (and the tories reterick and actions re-asylum seekers n general) isn't that it is illegal under international law, isn't that it is inhumane, isn't that t is simply wrong, it is simply that Labour in government will simply be more efficient at it. The fact is that almost 80% of those that come here via unorthadox routes that have actually been procesed - by this government are granted asylum. You could say many things about this government (and I, for one, do so on a regular basis), but, being a soft touch regarding asylm seekers isn't one of them. The fact is that not only do e take far less refugees than many other comparable Europen countries, but, also that far fewer come here to claim asylum than comparative EU countries in the first place. The huge backlog in asylem claims is driven by tory austerity and tory cuts. Put in place measures to reverse that - and then some - and you tackle the backlog. This in turn reduces the number that are in limbo in hotels. If you want to tackle the criminal gangs that put lives at risk, then re-open safe and legal routes. You could even have a weekly ferry from Calais or processig sites in Calais for those that want to come to the UK. Language is also important. The tories repeatedly referrig to 'illegals' is delibarate, used as a dog whistle to a cetain demographic and also sows division and mistrust. Labour should be, just as regularly referring to asylum seekers or even refugees in the same context. I'd be interested to know whether you think we should take unlimited numbers of migrants of whatever sort, or whether there is any upper limit. Another million? Ten million? A hundred million? |
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Post by mercian on Jul 12, 2023 21:09:29 GMT
Educated women have the largest effect on a country's fertility rate. 'Sorry love, you've got to wear one of these thingies tonight.' A strap-on? 😁 |
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Post by mercian on Jul 12, 2023 21:16:03 GMT
DannyYou've got your quotes mixed up. In your post of seven hours ago I didn't say waht you quoted me as saying.
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Post by mercian on Jul 12, 2023 21:21:40 GMT
crossbat11 “ In our case, that "thingy" requested by my wife will be my 1982 Villa European Cup winners shirt. This seems to have mysterious contraceptive powers in that she won't come anywhere near me when I've got it on. Mind you, I did say that I'd never wash it again from the moment I staggered out of the Feyenoord Stadium in Rotterdam over 40 years ago. I've been good to my word too. The 1977 League Cup Winners shirt, however, seems to have the opposite effect and is now tattered and torn.” I hadn’t realised that the Villa had won stuff as recently as that.  Blimey! The Inter-Toto Cup in around 2004 was the last major triumph.  |
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Post by mercian on Jul 12, 2023 21:24:08 GMT
Just seen a note about sea surface temperatures around Florida showing much of it is 32-33C. That's hot tub levels - in the seas. As a species, our ability to ignore f@cking great alarm bells and carry on as if everything is fine is astonishing. That certainly sounds hot, but the figure alone means nothing without context of historic levels. |
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Post by mercian on Jul 12, 2023 21:29:41 GMT
Huw Edwards named by his wife as presenter at centre of scandal. The 'scandal' seeming to consist of legal and consensual activity between adults as far as we know to date - certainly the police see no evidence of criminality. But Edwards now receiving health treatment for severe depression. I have a feeling Danny may be right on this one - there is a definite whiff of homophobia about this, coupled with Murdoch's endless campaign to undermine the BBC for commercial reasons. I do wonder whether the reaction of sympathy for Edwards and apparent lack of interest in damage he has apparently caused would be the same if it was a Tory politician who had behaved in such a way? |
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Post by crossbat11 on Jul 12, 2023 21:42:36 GMT
crossbat11 “ In our case, that "thingy" requested by my wife will be my 1982 Villa European Cup winners shirt. This seems to have mysterious contraceptive powers in that she won't come anywhere near me when I've got it on. Mind you, I did say that I'd never wash it again from the moment I staggered out of the Feyenoord Stadium in Rotterdam over 40 years ago. I've been good to my word too. The 1977 League Cup Winners shirt, however, seems to have the opposite effect and is now tattered and torn.” I hadn’t realised that the Villa had won stuff as recently as that. Blimey! The Inter-Toto Cup in around 2004 was the last major triumph. We may also need to explain to the Miserly Gooner what a European Cup win is. It is unlikely that after following Arsenal all these years he will have the faintest idea. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2023 21:45:31 GMT
The Inter-Toto Cup in around 2004 was the last major triumph. We may also need to explain to the Miserly Gooner what a European Cup win is. It is unlikely that after following Arsenal all these years he will have the faintest idea. We get a bit tired winning so many FA cups. |
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Post by davem on Jul 12, 2023 21:51:53 GMT
I agree, all politics is local is often quoted, this is very true at ward level campaigning. We found that while we were doing lots of things locally we were not telling people about them and that allowed the local Tory room to take photos of himself pointing at a few things that needed doing and complaining in Facebook posts and a couple of leaflets. The result was that on the doorstep people were saying look at him he is doing all of this and what are you (Labour) doing. This is despite the fact that he never reported the issues and left that to the Labour councillors who actually got them sorted! So since the May elections, where the Tories cut the Labour majority to 101, against national trends we have changed tack and every time we report an issue we are writing to the residents who are effected by the issue and following this up with a second letter to say what the out come has been, 90% of the time it is to report that it has been fixed. Our next ward wide leaflet will include a map with pins dropped where Labour activists have reported problems and taken action and where the Tories have claimed to report things. As it stands the score is 84 interventions by Labour and two by others, both of these were not followed up and were finally sorted after Labour reported them. Good that the local Tory has caused the council to up their game. No we have not upped our game. We are just telling people what we have done, while the Tory has claimed to do things he has never done. What’s more used the same claim several times. There are several cases where he claimed med to have reported problems on his Facebook page, only for us to find out he had never done so and then report them ourselves and find that they were sorted within 24 hours. We had to respond to his lies. |
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Post by mercian on Jul 12, 2023 21:52:34 GMT
Edwards was not in a position of authority over any of the people we know about (which is the difference from the Schofield case), so no safeguarding issue arises. Are you saying that all relationships with a age gap of some level or other should now be criminalised? That a person of 50 having a relationship with a person aged 25 is automatically wrong even if they are both happy with it? It's pretty sleazy regardless of the sex of the participants. Edwards was nearly 60 when it started and the boy was a teenager. It does seem quite common for wealthy older men (and sometimes women) to go after much younger partners but always worth the attention of the tabloid press from their point of view. In addition of course Edwards is still married, so again not illegal but tabloid-worthy. Several other incidents seem to be coming to light, so it could be a pattern of behaviour. |
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Post by mercian on Jul 12, 2023 22:02:26 GMT
Starmer is taking the safer Llanberis route up Snowden, not Crib Goch. His arch critics may even say that he's taking the train up the mountain and shedding lots of passengers at stations en route! I'm sure you'll all be fascinated to know that I recently went 2/3 way up Snowdon on the train. I wonder why they don't build a railway up Everest, it'd save all the queues at the difficult bits of the climb. |
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Post by graham on Jul 12, 2023 22:10:59 GMT
An interesting perspective, and a surprisingly Starmer-sympathetic one from an unexpected source. The Guardian's Economics Editor and well known Lexiteer, Larry Elliott is not normally someone one who would endorse a Blairite-esque approach to Labour politics. In fact, he has in the past been vaguely sympathetic to Corbyn's version of what Labour should be. Here's an interesting extract from an article he wrote in today's Guardian. They are his concluding two paragraphs: - "If they are smart, Starmer and Reeves will take control of the economic narrative, blaming Tory mismanagement for any tough decisions that have to be made. This approach worked a treat for David Cameron and George Osborne in 2010, when they pinned the blame for the coalition government’s austerity measures on Gordon Brown’s alleged profligacy.
The deferred-gratification approach won’t be popular with those who say a Labour government needs to think bigger, but let’s be realistic. There will be no radical economic departures from a Starmer government, and if it went into the next election proposing anything that seriously challenged the orthodoxy – Bank of England independence and tight control of the public finances, for example – Labour would probably lose. Sometimes you have to win – and govern – ugly."He does mention some caveats and reservations that he still has in the full article (link below) but it suggests to me that the soft Left within Labour, if we think Elliott represents that strand of centre left opinion, are doing maybe two things here. Firstly, where before they were hedging their bets, maybe seeing where it might all be heading before committing any sort of approval, they are now confident that Labour will win and are positioning themselves accordingly. This is the magnetism of impending power at play, I think. Everybody likes to be the one who backs the winner. Secondly, there may well be an acceptance too that, in current socio-economic and political circumstances, Starmer's cautious route to power might be the only one available to Labour. The spectacular and scenic routes up the high electoral mountain, some may say heroic ones, have precipitous sheer drops either side and exceedingly narrow pathways. Starmer is taking the safer Llanberis route up Snowden, not Crib Goch. His arch critics may even say that he's taking the train up the mountain and shedding lots of passengers at stations en route! Put another way, with a few exceptions, they're all coming on board for the last leg of the journey. No choice but to do otherwise I suppose considering Starmer's firm, some might say, authoritarian, grip on his party. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/12/economic-tories-labour-general-election-britain-keir-starmerWe should all be grateful that Attlee and his team were far less feeble when faced with much more dire circumstances in 1945. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jul 12, 2023 22:13:46 GMT
I'd be interested to know whether you think we should take unlimited numbers of migrants of whatever sort, or whether there is any upper limit. Another million? Ten million? A hundred million? Obviously there is a limit. Obviously too though, we are nowhere near it currently. The great majority of UK immigrants are being invited to come here. The best strategy to prevent them coming is to make sure their native countries are nice places to live. Trouble is, if anything our foreign policies tend to be to start wars abroad. Its a dividie and conquer strategy we have used for hundreds of years, and it is predicated on the idea human life is not very valuable. Mostly we stick with that, for example a Ukrainian life is worth considerably less than a brit, and a russian even less. We dont care if boat people end up in a shit hole in Rwanda. I cant help thinking that if the problem is boats coming across from France, the real problem is we have the wrong sort of navy as aircraft carriers are not very good at herding small boats back to the French coast. It strikes me both the channel and the mediterranean could be properly patrolled, if anyone was willing to pay what it would cost. It would make sense to have an all europe deal where the French stop them leaving for england, but England pays to help stop them arriving in Greece. Oh, we used to have such a deal but we gave it up. Its called Brexit to lose control of your borders. |
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Post by mercian on Jul 12, 2023 22:24:30 GMT
That all made sense until the last sentence. Who are the 'new right'? Are they everywhere? Are you talking about the UK? Perhaps you could give a link to your conspiracy theory website. For example see Orban in Hungary rewarding women to breed hordes of children; the Republican Party in the US trying to effectively ban abortion - and also defunding international programmes of fertility control for women. Yes, they are spreading their message everywhere in Europe and North America with great success. There are UK equivalents - including inside Parliament. It's no conspiracy, just follow the mainstream news closely. New Right - 'Alt Right' in US, 'New Conservatives' in UK, etc. publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmallparty/210421/pro-life.htm Thanks. I hadn't heard the term before. I've never heard of 'New Conservatives' either. I must say I'm not keen on abortions except in cases of rape or if the baby will be horribly handicapped or something, but I wouldn't make them illegal. |
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Post by mercian on Jul 12, 2023 22:27:11 GMT
The Inter-Toto Cup in around 2004 was the last major triumph. We may also need to explain to the Miserly Gooner what a European Cup win is. It is unlikely that after following Arsenal all these years he will have the faintest idea. I thought he lived up north? Shouldn't he support Darlington or something? |
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steve
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Post by steve on Jul 12, 2023 22:28:01 GMT
mercianI suspect I'm in a fairly small group of people who someone has actually tried to murder, it wasn't directed at me specifically but he did murder one of my friends and injured four other people with a submachine gun. If I had been armed at the time I would have had no hesitation in shooting him and wouldn't have lost a lot of sleep if they died. However this would have been direct action to prevent the immediate endangering of life including my own. Once an individual has already been convicted and incarcerated there is no immediate danger and putting the morality of needlessly taking a life aside there's no justification for state authorised killing in these circumstances, it's just judicially sanctioned revenge.
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Post by mercian on Jul 12, 2023 22:28:16 GMT
Good that the local Tory has caused the council to up their game. No we have not upped our game. We are just telling people what we have done, while the Tory has claimed to do things he has never done. What’s more used the same claim several times. There are several cases where he claimed med to have reported problems on his Facebook page, only for us to find out he had never done so and then report them ourselves and find that they were sorted within 24 hours. We had to respond to his lies. Improving communications with your electorate is upping your game IMO. |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Jul 12, 2023 22:31:57 GMT
Edwards was not in a position of authority over any of the people we know about (which is the difference from the Schofield case), so no safeguarding issue arises. Are you saying that all relationships with a age gap of some level or other should now be criminalised? That a person of 50 having a relationship with a person aged 25 is automatically wrong even if they are both happy with it? It's pretty sleazy regardless of the sex of the participants. Edwards was nearly 60 when it started and the boy was a teenager. It does seem quite common for wealthy older men (and sometimes women) to go after much younger partners but always worth the attention of the tabloid press from their point of view. In addition of course Edwards is still married, so again not illegal but tabloid-worthy. Several other incidents seem to be coming to light, so it could be a pattern of behaviour. How would you fare if some tabloid decided to trawl through every thing you have done in your life, publish it in a skewed way, give you no right of reply, and destroyed your reputation permanently regardless of whether you are eventually found guilty or innocent? I have zero time for hypocritical 'Christian' morality (Jesus wasn't too keen on it either - "let him who is without sin cast the first stone" etc.). As a left libertarian my guiding principle is consent - those who can't consent (children, people with certain mental conditions, animals) must be protected, likewise the law has decided that you can't consent to be murdered or suffer grievous bodily harm, which seems fair enough to me, and finally you need to be aware of power imbalance situations in the workplace for example. But IMO anything else consenting adults want to do with each other is entirely their own business and the state, the press and assorted self-righteous busybodies should go sling their hook. |
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Post by mercian on Jul 12, 2023 22:33:14 GMT
I'd be interested to know whether you think we should take unlimited numbers of migrants of whatever sort, or whether there is any upper limit. Another million? Ten million? A hundred million? Obviously there is a limit. Obviously too though, we are nowhere near it currently. The great majority of UK immigrants are being invited to come here. I cant help thinking that if the problem is boats coming across from France, the real problem is we have the wrong sort of navy as aircraft carriers are not very good at herding small boats back to the French coast. We have patrol boats en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_Royal_Navy_ships#Surface_fleetThe problem is that for political reasons they're not allowed to herd them back to France. |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Jul 12, 2023 22:34:05 GMT
For example see Orban in Hungary rewarding women to breed hordes of children; the Republican Party in the US trying to effectively ban abortion - and also defunding international programmes of fertility control for women. Yes, they are spreading their message everywhere in Europe and North America with great success. There are UK equivalents - including inside Parliament. It's no conspiracy, just follow the mainstream news closely. New Right - 'Alt Right' in US, 'New Conservatives' in UK, etc. publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmallparty/210421/pro-life.htm Thanks. I hadn't heard the term before. I've never heard of 'New Conservatives' either. I must say I'm not keen on abortions except in cases of rape or if the baby will be horribly handicapped or something, but I wouldn't make them illegal. As you don't have a womb, I am not sure your opinion is all that relevant. I would be happy for abortion law to be made only by women. |
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Post by mercian on Jul 12, 2023 22:36:33 GMT
mercian I suspect I'm in a fairly small group of people who someone has actually tried to murder, it wasn't directed at me specifically but he did murder one of my friends and injured four other people with a submachine gun. If I had been armed at the time I would have had no hesitation in shooting him and wouldn't have lost a lot of sleep if they died. However this would have been direct action to prevent the immediate endangering of life including my own. Once an individual has already been convicted and incarcerated there is no immediate danger and putting the morality of needlessly taking a life aside there's no justification for state authorised killing in these circumstances, it's just judicially sanctioned revenge. I sympathise with your experience and intentions if you had been armed. However the problem with locking them up is that most of them do eventually get let out and a proportion do the same thing again. The justification is that you save innocent lives by taking a guilty one. |
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Post by mercian on Jul 12, 2023 22:45:10 GMT
It's pretty sleazy regardless of the sex of the participants. Edwards was nearly 60 when it started and the boy was a teenager. It does seem quite common for wealthy older men (and sometimes women) to go after much younger partners but always worth the attention of the tabloid press from their point of view. In addition of course Edwards is still married, so again not illegal but tabloid-worthy. Several other incidents seem to be coming to light, so it could be a pattern of behaviour. How would you fare if some tabloid decided to trawl through every thing you have done in your life, publish it in a skewed way, give you no right of reply, and destroyed your reputation permanently regardless of whether you are eventually found guilty or innocent? I have zero time for hypocritical 'Christian' morality (Jesus wasn't too keen on it either - "let him who is without sin cast the first stone" etc.). As a left libertarian my guiding principle is consent - those who can't consent (children, people with certain mental conditions, animals) must be protected, likewise the law has decided that you can't consent to be murdered or suffer grievous bodily harm, which seems fair enough to me, and finally you need to be aware of power imbalance situations in the workplace for example. But IMO anything else consenting adults want to do with each other is entirely their own business and the state, the press and assorted self-righteous busybodies should go sling their hook. Does that apply to Prince Andrew's alleged escapades? The tabloids wouldn't publish this stuff unless it attracted readers or visitors to their websites. Anyway as it happens I had a very enjoyable relationship with a lady in her late forties when I was in my mid-twenties (before I was married of course). Publish and be damned! 🤣 |
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Post by mercian on Jul 12, 2023 22:48:13 GMT
Thanks. I hadn't heard the term before. I've never heard of 'New Conservatives' either. I must say I'm not keen on abortions except in cases of rape or if the baby will be horribly handicapped or something, but I wouldn't make them illegal. As you don't have a womb, I am not sure your opinion is all that relevant. I would be happy for abortion law to be made only by women. Well in that case your opinion isn't relevant either, and you raised the subject. Unless you've been masquerading. Anyway, yes that law to be made by women seems reasonable. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2023 23:04:59 GMT
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jul 12, 2023 23:11:13 GMT
I do wonder whether the reaction of sympathy for Edwards and apparent lack of interest in damage he has apparently caused would be the same if it was a Tory politician who had behaved in such a way? I commented after reading the commons report, that a certain tory MP accused of being too touchy feely in the Carlton club might have found such behaviour not merely accepted but encouraged in certain other establishments. I wondered whether being blind drunk at the time, he had simply muddled up where he was. That case has certain obvious similarities, in that I find it very hard to believe someone was traumatised for life by having even his testicles squeezed when he didnt object it seems at the time. A lot of fake outrage seemed to have ended up in the evidence there too.
Another stat which comes to mind is one that the average number of lifetime sexual partners in the UK is about 7. When I first looked at such a figure maybe 40 years ago it was maybe 1-2. Since thats lifetime cumulative total, a rising trend presumably means those young now will be averaging more than the middle aged, and them more than the actually old who have amassed their totals. This is kinda relevant to how much people might be accustomed to touchy feeliness.
And then factor in that certain people are massive outliers, wtih hundreds or thousands of partners. And certain sections of society will of course be packed with such people. If the youngster in this recent saga is a habitue of datings apps, then sending pics for free would be normal as would many encounters. So...damage...unlikely to be much. But thats an uninformed statistical guess.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2023 23:15:34 GMT
Had a day up in the Smoke yesterday, meeting old pals, with lunch at the BBC as usual beforehand. Struck by the number of media 'pitches' interviewing 'talking heads' on the piazza. Nearly had to fight a way through them! Febrile times, now hopefully abating.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Jul 12, 2023 23:24:22 GMT
It's pretty sleazy regardless of the sex of the participants. Edwards was nearly 60 when it started and the boy was a teenager. It does seem quite common for wealthy older men (and sometimes women) to go after much younger partners but always worth the attention of the tabloid press from their point of view. In addition of course Edwards is still married, so again not illegal but tabloid-worthy. Several other incidents seem to be coming to light, so it could be a pattern of behaviour. Social apps such as grindr are a meat market. Go pick the best available talent at that time. Thats kinda the point of the thing, though you can use it as you wish and explain you are looking for one off or long term, whether you are single or not, and so on. I dont know how heterosexual apps compare, these are men accommodating men. It is at least said that women are pickier. Hard to know to what extent these are socially conditioned stereotypes. I find some of the sensibilities expressed eg by some feminists on womans hour from time to time, utterly insane. But some woment do too. Who doesnt want to be seen as a sex object?
Its clear younger people are more sexually active than their predecessors in recent history, and also much less concerned about straight/gay/etc typecasting. Percentage identifying as non straight seems to be converging on at least 10%. And its still possible the other 90% are still lying. General consensus seems to be sexuality is more a continuum than an either/or. All this has been shoehorned under a veneer of conformity and respectability in the last hundred years, not sure when that began.
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Post by lens on Jul 12, 2023 23:28:16 GMT
It's the nature of the relationship that is more important than the absolute age gap. A 60 year old in a stable consensual relationship with a 20 year old (regardless of sex) is one thing - paying huge sums of money (used to fund a drug habit) as "reward" for sending explicit photograps is a very different matter. And that's before even thinking about the other two individuals who have come forward. And are there others? As for the last sentence, then the law is one thing, but are you really saying that the right thing for the parents to have done - seeing their son falling deeper and deeper into his drug addiction - would have just been to say "oh well, he's over 18"!? Please! As to the first paragraph, what consenting adults do is their business, not mine, not yours, not the Sun's or the BBCs. No law was broken and I don't have much time for people moralising about other's legal behaviour. There seems to be more coming out hour by hour, and now directly from the BBCs website:
"The BBC is facing fresh allegations of inappropriate behaviour by Edwards towards more junior staff.
Two current BBC workers and one former member of staff said they had been sent messages that made them feel uncomfortable."
Just because "no law was broken" does not mean nothing inappropriate happened, and I'm sure the BBC has rules in place about conduct which it finds unacceptable - even if not illegal. On the second point, yes parents might want to help an adult offspring with drug addiction - but running off to the Sun and blabbering about it in direct contradiction of their son's wishes and after they had already been told by the police that there was no case to answer seems a mighty odd way of going about that. Perhaps the parents would not have "run off to the Sun" if they had felt the BBC was taking them seriously? Perhaps they were at wits end and saw the Sun as a last hope? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2023 23:38:38 GMT
@danny “ Who doesn't want to be seen as a sex object?”
Bloody hell you do write a load of bollocks.
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Blimey! 
