steve
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Post by steve on Jul 9, 2023 20:19:49 GMT
We've all suffered because the narcissistic bastards didn't piss off years ago. Attachment Deleted |
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Post by mercian on Jul 9, 2023 20:22:24 GMT
But also with hiv the government did the exact opposite to covid. It damped down scaremongering and tried to be realistic. Whereas the covid action from start to finish deliberately exaggerated risk to encourage comliance with restrictions. Well they were wrong. Covid was never the risk it was claimed. This still has not been admitted. You do seem to make up things to suit your theories. Do you think this ad damped anything down? www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SqRNUUOk7s |
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Jul 9, 2023 20:24:01 GMT
I am most certainly not joking. TfL is a govt entity and GLA has devolved powers. The devolved govts of Scotland and Wales are pushing ahead in a few small ways as well. Obesity and 'poor health' generally are massive issues that are costing NHS and the broader economy a fortune - most of which is "avoidable". I appreciate the 'libertarians' will cry 'nanny state' but do we let people in UK carry guns? smoke in pubs? drive at whatever speed they want to on the roads (with however much alcohol/drugs they want to have inside them when they do so)? NO. So why are doing f-all about obesity and other health issues? That's because those things are illegal. As far as I know it isn't yet illegal to like cake. This is fascism by the back door aquila.usm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1049&context=ojhe"Nazi policies favored healthful food and opposed fat, sugar, alcohol, and sedentary lifestyles (Proctor, 1999b; Lemieux, 1999)." Smoking in pubs used to be legal. I'm not proposing we make liking cake illegal but IMO we need to have a more holistic approach to reducing consumption of HFSS foods and one small part of that is the advertising ban that TfL have put in place. I didn't have you down for one of those "that's how it started in Germany in the 1930s" types.  Not my polity but I approve of some of the other small measures that Wales is looking to adopt. As the below states: "Over 60% of adults in Wales are above a healthy weight and over a quarter of children are overweight or obese by the time they start school.". IMO we need to start tackling that issue but you can of course think it's all 'nanny state' stuff or 'facism by the back door'
Wales is to ban some food items from meal deals and tell supermarkets where they can display treatswww.walesonline.co.uk/news/health/welsh-government-ban-foods-meal-27183646IIRC then an old topic of UKPR was how healthy Brits were during/soon after the war - due to rationing:
Wartime rationing helped the British get healthier than they had ever beenwww.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/9728#1NB I'm not suggesting we adopt rationing but the link between health and diet is beyond doubt and I'm not as relaxed as you seem to be about the economic or societal costs of La-La-Libertarianism. |
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Post by mercian on Jul 9, 2023 20:28:13 GMT
Told you that bazball was brilliant, didn't I? More seriously, it's very frustrating that England are challenging the best test team in the world, but if they could only weedle out the silly mistakes with the bat and the dropped catches, it's by no means a stretch of the imagination to think that they could have been 3-0 up themselves by now. Times have certainly changed. I can remember the great Brian Close being dropped for making a 'rash shot' after making an heroic 70 against Hall and Griffiths when everyone else got blown away. Further discussion on the Sport thread if you're interested. |
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alurqa
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Post by alurqa on Jul 9, 2023 20:34:19 GMT
Could it possibly be many thousands if not millions of people who have come from societies that do not share our idea of what a civilised society is? OK, but what is our civilsed society? Letting people sleep rough because we don't provide the social housing to help them? Cutting back on public services such as the ambulance service so, while you can freely ring for one at no cost, there's no guarantee it will arrive before you die? Being able to talk to a GP maybe, but only by phone? Having our kids go to school, so they can experience what poor building maintenance looks like? And while they are looking, many can't eat because we refuse to give them free school meals? And then there's the rental sector...
I don't want to go on, it's just so awful to think about. I don't think we live in a civilised society, and I would have no hesitation in blaming the current party in power. |
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Post by mercian on Jul 9, 2023 20:38:09 GMT
That's because those things are illegal. As far as I know it isn't yet illegal to like cake. This is fascism by the back door aquila.usm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1049&context=ojhe"Nazi policies favored healthful food and opposed fat, sugar, alcohol, and sedentary lifestyles (Proctor, 1999b; Lemieux, 1999)." I understand the concern to a degree but there really is nothing wrong with the GLA promoting healthy lifestyles. TfL will typically run ads for all sorts of public and private entities including local and central government. If there are organisations who take a different view they could probably run their ads too and let the public make up their own minds who to follow. This all started because TfL apparently banned an poster for a play that featured a picture of a cake. It's an insignificant example of how we are slipping into Orwell's 1984. Control what people are allowed to see, and the words they are allowed to use, and independent thought gradually becomes not just difficult but literally impossible. |
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Jul 9, 2023 20:38:18 GMT
Other futures are possible of course and I'm not writing CON off just yet. Stuff like inflation will fall later this year. I've just been offered a deal on my leccy and gas which is £50/month less than it has been until now. I turned down the fixed rate environmentally 'pure' version although it was slightly cheaper still because I think rates will fall further. But anyway, prices are coming down. The cap dropped on 1Jul but depends what deal you were on (and how much leccy and gas you use) in terms of whether or not to consider a switch. I don't have a crystal ball but the price cap is a formula and so future prices can be predicted. EG Their longer 'explainer' piece that folks can bookmark if they want to: Predictions and Insights into the Default Tariff Capwww.cornwall-insight.com/predictions-and-insights-into-the-default-tariff-cap/Not for me to suggest what anyone does as everyone's circumstances are different. I don't have gas and don't use that much leccy. I've been pretty disappointed with Octopus Agile - the missus blames the French (their problem with 'old-old' nuclear) but the 'dither+delay' in UK is IMO the biggest reason we've very rarely got -ve leccy ('price plunges'*) in the last year or so but should start getting more frequent again in the future. * See: "The Last Price Plunge in Eastern England region was -11.45 p/kWh (including VAT) on Sunday, 02 July 2023 @ 15:30.
In the Eastern England region the Agile Octopus price has been below zero for 28 hours this year."mysmartenergy.uk/Prices/Eastern-England#:~:text=Agile%20Octopus.&text=For%20comparison%20the%20Standard%20Variable,price%20is%2030.72p%2FkWh.&text=Prices%20include%20VAT.,%2Fday%20(including%20VAT). |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2023 20:43:35 GMT
I understand the concern to a degree but there really is nothing wrong with the GLA promoting healthy lifestyles. TfL will typically run ads for all sorts of public and private entities including local and central government. If there are organisations who take a different view they could probably run their ads too and let the public make up their own minds who to follow. This all started because TfL apparently banned an poster for a play that featured a picture of a cake. It's an insignificant example of how we are slipping into Orwell's 1984. Control what people are allowed to see, and the words they are allowed to use, and independent thought gradually becomes not just difficult but literally impossible. Certainly looks as though rational thought is impossible for some.  |
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Post by mercian on Jul 9, 2023 20:43:59 GMT
Could it possibly be many thousands if not millions of people who have come from societies that do not share our idea of what a civilised society is? The sort of society where the govenment order that murals be painted out in case traumatised children fleeing war and violence find them "too welcoming"- that sort of civilised? You'd better take that up with crossbat11 who was the one who said we lived in a civilised society. I believe we do despite actions by some politicians that some disapprove of. A good example is that we are allowed to debate controversial subjects in a public forum, though of course we don't know who is watching. 🕵️♂️ |
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Jul 9, 2023 20:52:31 GMT
The 'Other' list is weird. Gerry Adams is 13th and Neil Hamilton 18th for instance! I'm surprised James E posted the CON one. Perhaps he simply forgot to add the  symbol given the YG popularity polling is one of those 'self report' things and the 'popular' % is gross (hence why likes of Sir Ed (who?) probably doesn't rank that high but Maggie (most people have heard of her) did - even though YG left her out of CON list for some reason?!?) Likes of 'Gorgeous' George and Neil Hamilton are weird ones but 74% of people have heard of Gerry Adams with 17% giving him the 'thumbs up'. FWIW then 39% gave him the 'thumbs down' so he's net -22%. yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Gerry_AdamsFarage #1 as 96% of people have heard of him and 26% 'like' him (but 52% do not). Someone like Daisy Cooper has a small fan club and as we see in a lot of polling then until people get to know a politician then most don't "dislike" them. IIRC there is a saying about "die the hero, live long enough to be the villain"? LDEM used to benefit by never being in power and unlike Sir Ed then at least Daisy Cooper wasn't a CON stooge in the past so hardly anyone is going to dislike her (unless/until she gets a red briefcase!) |
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Post by mercian on Jul 9, 2023 20:57:32 GMT
Could it possibly be many thousands if not millions of people who have come from societies that do not share our idea of what a civilised society is? OK, but what is our civilsed society? Letting people sleep rough because we don't provide the social housing to help them? Cutting back on public services such as the ambulance service so, while you can freely ring for one at no cost, there's no guarantee it will arrive before you die? Being able to talk to a GP maybe, but only by phone? Having our kids go to school, so they can experience what poor building maintenance looks like? And while they are looking, many can't eat because we refuse to give them free school meals? And then there's the rental sector...
I don't want to go on, it's just so awful to think about. I don't think we live in a civilised society, and I would have no hesitation in blaming the current party in power. I refer you to my reply to reggieside. |
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Jul 9, 2023 21:13:39 GMT
Probably should post on the Energy thread but just FWIW then from my earlier link note that some of the reason a 'typical consumer' will probably see a lower price later this year is coz they've adjusted what a typical consumer uses. See: "Under the current Ofgem definition, a customer with a Typical Domestic Consumption Value (TDCV) uses 2,900kWh per annum for electricity and 12,000kWh per annum for gas.
Ofgem will be updating it’s TDCVs from October to 2,700kWh per annum for electricity and 11,500 kWh per annum for gas."
www.cornwall-insight.com/predictions-and-insights-into-the-default-tariff-cap/IMO the whole 'typical consumer' thing is daft and people could easily understand the simples kWh prices with an awareness of their own historic consumption - and hopefully their lower consumption going forward due to improved insulation, not basking in 22C in middle of Winter or needing 'burn yourself' levels of hot water. Not sure what ONS will do but 'reweighting' of consumption is usually done once a year (although obviously people react quicker to price changes than waiting for ONS to reweight their basket). PS Actually I think the whole tariff cap thing is daft and should be scrapped but that is something for the Energy thread. |
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alurqa
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Post by alurqa on Jul 9, 2023 21:29:40 GMT
OK, but what is our civilsed society? Letting people sleep rough because we don't provide the social housing to help them? Cutting back on public services such as the ambulance service so, while you can freely ring for one at no cost, there's no guarantee it will arrive before you die? Being able to talk to a GP maybe, but only by phone? Having our kids go to school, so they can experience what poor building maintenance looks like? And while they are looking, many can't eat because we refuse to give them free school meals? And then there's the rental sector... I don't want to go on, it's just so awful to think about. I don't think we live in a civilised society, and I would have no hesitation in blaming the current party in power. I refer you to my reply to reggieside . The sort of society where the govenment order that murals be painted out in case traumatised children fleeing war and violence find them "too welcoming"- that sort of civilised? You'd better take that up with crossbat11 who was the one who said we lived in a civilised society. I believe we do despite actions by some politicians that some disapprove of. A good example is that we are allowed to debate controversial subjects in a public forum, though of course we don't know who is watching. 🕵️♂️ But we can't hold a blank piece of paper up in front of the king? Seems a bit selective to me.
Edit: just to add, as long as I don't do anything to piss anyone else off, perhaps we are a civilised society. But then I'm not poor and black, so I may be biased.
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steve
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Post by steve on Jul 9, 2023 22:06:49 GMT
The liberal democrats are putting forward a motion to investigate the malignant seven who repeatedly undermined the integrity of the privileges committee. Anticipate a complete absence of Sunakered from parliament. youtu.be/471Zh_TY42A |
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steve
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Post by steve on Jul 9, 2023 22:19:27 GMT
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Post by mercian on Jul 9, 2023 23:25:29 GMT
You'd better take that up with crossbat11 who was the one who said we lived in a civilised society. I believe we do despite actions by some politicians that some disapprove of. A good example is that we are allowed to debate controversial subjects in a public forum, though of course we don't know who is watching. 🕵️♂️ But we can't hold a blank piece of paper up in front of the king? Seems a bit selective to me.
Edit: just to add, as long as I don't do anything to piss anyone else off, perhaps we are a civilised society. But then I'm not poor and black, so I may be biased.
I was referring to the 'Not My King' placards. Of course people can hold up whatever they like because we live in a civilised society. I was just saying that like so many other things lately it's a denial of an actual fact. And while we're on the subject, perhaps you could point to a society that you do consider to be civilised? For instance the Roman Civilisation, which it was compared to most of its neighbours. Yet slavery and conquest were an inherent part of it. In other words, no society or civilisation is perfect. Does your definition of civilisation exist anywhere apart from your fantasy world? |
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Post by moby on Jul 10, 2023 7:01:37 GMT
I see the Sunday paper reading doom mongers are out in force today with the usual narrative; the tories are acknowledged as crap and out of steam, a look across the channel confirms worst fears for our future and of course Labour under Keir Starmer has no answers:-  youtu.be/LYwdZmmHF3wyoutu.be/Kho5KvPBDSwImo such attitudes are often expressed by those whose preferred political preferences are on the way out. 'Woe betide us all' gives comfort to the losers and will inevitably be followed with.. ....'I told you so' sometime in the future. There's nothing new in this world is there! Yes, I think that's what might be going on here too. The game's up and it's a scramble for face-saving positions that avoid culpability and embarrassment. Everything is hopeless, nobody has any answers and the whole of politics is a venal and corrupt mess. What I don't fully understand though, apart from it being a possible distraction ploy that plays into the "every country is a basket case, it ain't just us" narrative, is this fixation with an apparent Far Right surge in Europe that "may be meeting voters concerns." The Far Right have always been present in both UK and European politics. Their fortunes wax and wane, but unless they hitch rides with mainstream centre right parties in coalitions, they are nowhere near seizing outright power in any major European democracy. In fact, if you take the most populous countries, and biggest economies, in Europe most are governed by centre left or centrist administrations, as in Germany, France, Spain and Portugal. The UK looks like it will go that way next year and the one exception, Italy, has a nominally Far Right PM tacking fairly quickly to the centre now in power. She heads a very rickety coalition. If we go more globally, the US, Brazil and Australia have all quite recently jettisoned right wing governments and replaced them with centrist and centre left administrations. Of course, the situation is mixed and the Far Right, like the Far Left, gain some traction by offering populist solutions to deep seated economic and social issues, but their electoral strength is often exaggerated. In the Far Right's case, their cause is megaphoned by a surprising chunk of the mainstream media in some European countries. Strangely, Andrew Neil's organ, The Spectator, seem fixated on supposed Far Right success too. Yes after Brexit the same 'sages' were predicting an existential risk to the 'European' project which doesn't seem to have materialised. The same 'sages' took some strange satisfaction from pointing out how Putin was 'running rings round the West'. It apparently🤔 took a strong man like Putin to show that the institutions of the West were venal and schlerotic. In fact what has become more and more clear recently is that the solutions to whatever threats we face are best tackled through international cooperation and the institutions we were part of but in this country have turned away from; those very same institutions that are vilified by the far right as not meeting the concerns of the voters. It is a positive sign imo as you point out populism seems actually to be on the wane, the grown ups are again making the decisions and the Trumps, Johnson's and Bolsonaro's have had their day. It is clear though the populist experiments we have indulged in through Brexit and voting in a corrupt liar like Johnson have had consequences. Regarding geopolitics Biden clearly ignores us when he can and now looks towards Germany and France as the centre of gravity for decision making. Of course the economic consequences of leaving the EU for the UK have been discussed at length; our numbers on recovery after the pandemic and the war reflect the future trend; we are always going to be behind our neighbours and we are not going to be in the room where many of the decisions are made that affect us. Yes Labour will have a massive 'to do' list if they win power but it's a bit rich that the very same contributors who are now pointing their fingers at Labours inadequate answers are the very same characters who previously decided Brexit and Boris Johnson or, (alternatively) Jeremy Corbyn was the way forward. These opposites have coalesced around the new narrative. I always thought you had to at least spend some time in purgatory/atonement before redemption. Every announcement from Labour is pounced on with relish. Labours policies/answers may be eventually seen as inadequate but to be promulgating that line at this point comes across as schadenfreude due to previous hopes/forecasts not being realised. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Jul 10, 2023 7:27:53 GMT
I am most certainly not joking. TfL is a govt entity and GLA has devolved powers. The devolved govts of Scotland and Wales are pushing ahead in a few small ways as well. Obesity and 'poor health' generally are massive issues that are costing NHS and the broader economy a fortune - most of which is "avoidable". I appreciate the 'libertarians' will cry 'nanny state' but do we let people in UK carry guns? smoke in pubs? drive at whatever speed they want to on the roads (with however much alcohol/drugs they want to have inside them when they do so)? NO. So why are doing f-all about obesity and other health issues? That's because those things are illegal. As far as I know it isn't yet illegal to like cake. This is fascism by the back door aquila.usm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1049&context=ojhe"Nazi policies favored healthful food and opposed fat, sugar, alcohol, and sedentary lifestyles (Proctor, 1999b; Lemieux, 1999)." Seriously daft. Just because the Nazis liked something (or didn't like something for that matter) doesn't automatically mean you have to take the opposing view. Hitler was very fond of dogs, that doesn't mean all dog owners are Nazis. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Jul 10, 2023 7:31:20 GMT
Told you that bazball was brilliant, didn't I? More seriously, it's very frustrating that England are challenging the best test team in the world, but if they could only weedle out the silly mistakes with the bat and the dropped catches, it's by no means a stretch of the imagination to think that they could have been 3-0 up themselves by now. Times have certainly changed. I can remember the great Brian Close being dropped for making a 'rash shot' after making an heroic 70 against Hall and Griffiths when everyone else got blown away. Further discussion on the Sport thread if you're interested. Your memory is at fault. Close played all 5 tests of the 1963 series in which he made that 70 at Lords (2nd test). I suspect you are thinking of how he was rather unfairly blamed for England's defeat in the Old Trafford test of 1961 v Australia. Richie Benaud said Close was the only England batsman other than Dexter who worried him that day as having the potential to win the game for England. www.espncricinfo.com/series/australia-tour-of-england-1961-61331/england-vs-australia-4th-test-62896/full-scorecard |
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Post by crossbat11 on Jul 10, 2023 7:43:49 GMT
moby
Crikey moby, that is a good post, certainly in terms of articulating my position on these matters. That's not to say some won't legitimately disagree with where you and I and others are coming from, but, from my perspective, you've nailed it.
The hostility to Starmer from the right is predictable and understandable, but the depth of antagonism from the left is astonishing to me. The fact that these two spectrums of British politics are now making common cause on the issue is very disappointing when you think of the political and electoral consequences of derailing Starmer.
The Tories want to derail him quite naturally, but what's in it for the Left? Surely a tepid social democratic government, if that's what they think Starmer will oversee, is better than the only viable electoral alternative to that which is yet another Tory-led Government?
Maybe we live in a country and electoral system where tepid social democratic governments are the only non-Tory governments that ever get elected. That's Starmer's calculation I'm guessing, and I think he may be right.
P.S. That's not to say either that a "tepid" social democratic government cannot and will not do good things and be the gateway to real change. My point is that the offer to the electorate is the key here. What gets you the ticket to the dance. Electoral politics has to be the priority for Starmer right now.
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Jul 10, 2023 8:02:56 GMT
Ken Clarke writing ahead of HoL's 3rd reading of Illegal Immigration Bill and the 'ping pong' back to HoC:
Ken Clarke: Doing nothing about illegal immigration is not an optionwww.standard.co.uk/news/politics/ken-clarke-channel-home-office-writing-government-b1093228.html"Everyone* knows that it is a huge problem, and that, if we cannot find a solution, people will die in the Channel in considerable numbers by taking risks as they come here."* Perhaps not 'everyone'. For some people then whether or not there is a mural of a mouse in a reception centre is perhaps more important than stopping people, including children, taking life threatening risks (and paying criminal gangs) to come here. NB Whilst it is a lengthy process then if any 'virtue signallers' want to actually do something such as "Sponsor / Adopt a Syrian Refugee Child" then: www.watan.org.uk/news/how-to-help-the-refugee-children-of-syria/Other organisations exist and there are genuine refugees in/from other countries in UNHCR camps who are not paying criminal gangs to transport them to UK. Or perhaps some people think they are 'civilised' because they don't think illegal immigration is a huge problem (for UK, rEurope, US, etc) and the real issue is whether or not there is a mural on a wall in a building that shouldn't (IMO) even be needed. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Jul 10, 2023 8:07:19 GMT
mobyExcellent post. But please don't lump those of us who consistently called out Brexit for the disastrous con job fantasy it always was and remains as being nihilistic. We understandably aren't remotely impressed with the make Brexit work bollocks still emerging from the Labour leadership. The only light on this front is that those spouting the b.s. aren't the hard of thinking cult members who took us into this mess. Reality and of course overwhelming public disillusionment with Brexit will probably make them change their approach.
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alurqa
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Post by alurqa on Jul 10, 2023 8:30:29 GMT
But we can't hold a blank piece of paper up in front of the king? Seems a bit selective to me.
Edit: just to add, as long as I don't do anything to piss anyone else off, perhaps we are a civilised society. But then I'm not poor and black, so I may be biased.
Of course people can hold up whatever they like because we live in a civilised society. I was just saying that like so many other things lately it's a denial of an actual fact. And while we're on the subject, perhaps you could point to a society that you do consider to be civilised? For instance the Roman Civilisation, which it was compared to most of its neighbours. Yet slavery and conquest were an inherent part of it. In other words, no society or civilisation is perfect. Does your definition of civilisation exist anywhere apart from your fantasy world? So was I: metro.co.uk/2022/09/13/man-threatened-with-arrest-if-he-wrote-not-my-king-on-blank-sign-17362896/
If I'm living in a fantasy world, I want to wake up NOW.
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Jul 10, 2023 8:43:45 GMT
moby Crikey moby, that is a good post, certainly in terms of articulating my position on these matters. That's not to say some won't legitimately disagree with where you and I and others are coming from, but, from my perspective, you've nailed it. The hostility to Starmer from the right is predictable and understandable, but the depth of antagonism from the left is astonishing to me. The fact that these two spectrums of British politics are now making common cause on the issue is very disappointing when you think of the political and electoral consequences of derailing Starmer. The Tories want to derail him quite naturally, but what's in it for the Left? Surely a tepid social democratic government, if that's what they think Starmer will oversee, is better than the only viable electoral alternative to that which is yet another Tory-led Government? Maybe we live in a country and electoral system where tepid social democratic governments are the only non-Tory governments that ever get elected. That's Starmer's calculation I'm guessing, and I think he may be right. P.S. That's not to say either that a "tepid" social democratic government cannot and will not do good things and be the gateway to real change. My point is that the offer to the electorate is the key here. What gets you the ticket to the dance. Electoral politics has to be the priority for Starmer right now. "what's in it for the Left?" - I'm afraid for some though by no means all on the further left there's a revolutionary element to this and they are quite happy for the tories to remain in power and drag the country down and down as some of them believe only that will eventually force people into accepting more sudden, revolutionary change. In the meantime of course many would suffer but for some of these people it's more about an egotistical self-validation of their beliefs and 'means justifiying the ends' than concern about the effects on 'real people' to use a colinism. Most of them will be fairly economically cushioned from the effects themselves as well. It's alll about them, not about the country. All quite selfish and unpleasant. Revolutionaries have an interest in keeping people in a state of despair as that aids their revolutionary message. Just like Islamic fundamentalists. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2023 9:09:13 GMT
In fact, if you take the most populous countries, and biggest economies, in Europe most are governed by centre left or centrist administrations, as in Germany, France, Spain and Portugal. The UK looks like it will go that way next year I suppose that if you assume UK will go loc next time on the basis of OPs ( and i think that a very reasonable assumption) , then OPs on the other countries mentioned should be the basis for saying which way they are headed. The following are the last General/Presidential election results for those four countries together with my approximate reading of the latest WIKI OP trend graphs for each -with the date of the next GE-all showing the key parties. The parties in bold are roc or far right Germany:- 2021/2025
SPD 25.7/19 CDU/CSU 24.1/23Green 14.8/14 AFD 10.3/21France 2022/2027
Macron 58.6/46 Le Pen 41.4/54Spain 2019/2023
PSOE 28.0/29 PP 20.8/34VOX 15.1/15Podemos/Sumar 12.9/13 Portugal 2022/2026
PS 41.4/27 PSD 29.1/28CHEGA 7.2/13
....not forgetting this recent actual election :- heguardian.com/world/2023/jun/25/conservative-mitsotakis-expected-to-win-greek-general-election |
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Post by graham on Jul 10, 2023 9:17:36 GMT
moby Crikey moby, that is a good post, certainly in terms of articulating my position on these matters. That's not to say some won't legitimately disagree with where you and I and others are coming from, but, from my perspective, you've nailed it. The hostility to Starmer from the right is predictable and understandable, but the depth of antagonism from the left is astonishing to me. The fact that these two spectrums of British politics are now making common cause on the issue is very disappointing when you think of the political and electoral consequences of derailing Starmer. The Tories want to derail him quite naturally, but what's in it for the Left? Surely a tepid social democratic government, if that's what they think Starmer will oversee, is better than the only viable electoral alternative to that which is yet another Tory-led Government? Maybe we live in a country and electoral system where tepid social democratic governments are the only non-Tory governments that ever get elected. That's Starmer's calculation I'm guessing, and I think he may be right. P.S. That's not to say either that a "tepid" social democratic government cannot and will not do good things and be the gateway to real change. My point is that the offer to the electorate is the key here. What gets you the ticket to the dance. Electoral politics has to be the priority for Starmer right now. But Starmer has brought this on himself - and in electoral conditions when he had absolutely no need to do so. Why should any left of centre voter feel the least bit enthused at the prospect of a period of warmed up bland Blairism?Why should they look forward to a Labour Government well to the Right of the Tory governments which preceded Thatcher - eg Macmillan and Heath?Blair's government was - at best - Christian Democratic - certainly it was far from being social democratic in any Gaitskellite or Croslandite sense. To argue that Starmer will not be quite as bad as the Tories of recent years is rather akin to saying that Franco was not quite as bad as Hitler. |
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Post by leftieliberal on Jul 10, 2023 9:19:59 GMT
That's because those things are illegal. As far as I know it isn't yet illegal to like cake. This is fascism by the back door aquila.usm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1049&context=ojhe"Nazi policies favored healthful food and opposed fat, sugar, alcohol, and sedentary lifestyles (Proctor, 1999b; Lemieux, 1999)."
Wales is to ban some food items from meal deals and tell supermarkets where they can display treatswww.walesonline.co.uk/news/health/welsh-government-ban-foods-meal-27183646IIRC then an old topic of UKPR was how healthy Brits were during/soon after the war - due to rationing:
Wartime rationing helped the British get healthier than they had ever beenwww.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/9728#1NB I'm not suggesting we adopt rationing but the link between health and diet is beyond doubt and I'm not as relaxed as you seem to be about the economic or societal costs of La-La-Libertarianism. I think you will find it is a little more complicated than that. Genes play an important role in being overweight and obese. www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/i-have-the-fatso-gene-heres-how-i-stay-slim-and-you-can-too/ The Intelligent Weight Loss DNA Test looks at more than 40 genes and 50 SNPs (single-nucleotide polymorphisms, or variations in DNA), known to affect hunger, appetite and metabolism. It involved a simple cheek swab, done at home, posted to a lab.“For most of us, no single ‘fat gene’ is responsible for our weight issues. Rather, many different genetic polymorphisms combine to create a unique set of challenges.”Most strikingly, my test revealed I have a common “risk” variant of one of the first discovered, best understood and most influential obesity genes. “It’s called the FTO gene, which stands for ‘fat mass and obesity’, but it can be referred to as the “fatso gene,” admits Pearson.
The truth is, thanks to our unique genetic make-up, many of us will find it harder to control our weight. The dice is loaded against them from birth. In days of old when famines were more common, these genes had positive survival value. It is only now in the modern Western world where there is an oversupply of food that we see their effect in obesity and the health effects associated with it. Attacking people who have these genes as merely lacking willpower to keep their weight down is really no different to attacking people for their skin colour. |
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pjw1961
Member
Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,572
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Post by pjw1961 on Jul 10, 2023 9:26:46 GMT
The really depressing thing about the rise of "right wing populists" in Europe and the anglophone world (and lets be honest, we are really talking neo-fascism here) is that the mainstream conservative right should be standing with the centre and moderate left in opposing them and making it clear they are completely beyond the pale. Instead, the more moderate right and their media supporters frequently indulge the extremists in every way and are happy to enter into electoral alliances with them. In FPTP countries where the need for coalitions is less, the far right have essentially been able to take over the Republican Party with minimal opposition from conservatives and the UK Conservative Party shows signs of going the same way, indulging the likes of Braverman as Home Secretary making openly racist and xenophobic remarks and policies.
The only conclusion I can draw is that the entire right is not fully committed to democracy and the rule of law. All very disturbing.
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Post by leftieliberal on Jul 10, 2023 9:26:57 GMT
moby Crikey moby, that is a good post, certainly in terms of articulating my position on these matters. That's not to say some won't legitimately disagree with where you and I and others are coming from, but, from my perspective, you've nailed it. The hostility to Starmer from the right is predictable and understandable, but the depth of antagonism from the left is astonishing to me. The fact that these two spectrums of British politics are now making common cause on the issue is very disappointing when you think of the political and electoral consequences of derailing Starmer. The Tories want to derail him quite naturally, but what's in it for the Left? Surely a tepid social democratic government, if that's what they think Starmer will oversee, is better than the only viable electoral alternative to that which is yet another Tory-led Government? Maybe we live in a country and electoral system where tepid social democratic governments are the only non-Tory governments that ever get elected. That's Starmer's calculation I'm guessing, and I think he may be right. P.S. That's not to say either that a "tepid" social democratic government cannot and will not do good things and be the gateway to real change. My point is that the offer to the electorate is the key here. What gets you the ticket to the dance. Electoral politics has to be the priority for Starmer right now. "what's in it for the Left?" - I'm afraid for some though by no means all on the further left there's a revolutionary element to this and they are quite happy for the tories to remain in power and drag the country down and down as some of them believe only that will eventually force people into accepting more sudden, revolutionary change. In the meantime of course many would suffer but for some of these people it's more about an egotistical self-validation of their beliefs and 'means justifiying the ends' than concern about the effects on 'real people' to use a colinism. Most of them will be fairly economically cushioned from the effects themselves as well. It's alll about them, not about the country. All quite selfish and unpleasant. Revolutionaries have an interest in keeping people in a state of despair as that aids their revolutionary message. Just like Islamic fundamentalists. Just like the Scottish Nationalists. |
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domjg
Member
Posts: 5,123
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Post by domjg on Jul 10, 2023 9:33:05 GMT
"what's in it for the Left?" - I'm afraid for some though by no means all on the further left there's a revolutionary element to this and they are quite happy for the tories to remain in power and drag the country down and down as some of them believe only that will eventually force people into accepting more sudden, revolutionary change. In the meantime of course many would suffer but for some of these people it's more about an egotistical self-validation of their beliefs and 'means justifiying the ends' than concern about the effects on 'real people' to use a colinism. Most of them will be fairly economically cushioned from the effects themselves as well. It's alll about them, not about the country. All quite selfish and unpleasant. Revolutionaries have an interest in keeping people in a state of despair as that aids their revolutionary message. Just like Islamic fundamentalists. Just like the Scottish Nationalists. The comparison did occur to me but I thought it best to not say it! |
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