24-April 2023 : LAB 44% / CON 29% / LDEM 11% / GRN 5%

[pjw1961]

Jul 10, 2023 7:43:49 GMT crossbat11 said:

moby

Crikey moby, that is a good post, certainly in terms of articulating my position on these matters. That's not to say some won't legitimately disagree with where you and I and others are coming from, but, from my perspective, you've nailed it.

The hostility to Starmer from the right is predictable and understandable, but the depth of antagonism from the left is astonishing to me. The fact that these two spectrums of British politics are now making common cause on the issue is very disappointing when you think of the political and electoral consequences of derailing Starmer.

The Tories want to derail him quite naturally, but what's in it for the Left? Surely a tepid social democratic government, if that's what they think Starmer will oversee, is better than the only viable electoral alternative to that which is yet another Tory-led Government?

Maybe we live in a country and electoral system where tepid social democratic governments are the only non-Tory governments that ever get elected. That's Starmer's calculation I'm guessing, and I think he may be right.



P.S. That's not to say either that a "tepid" social democratic government cannot and will not do good things and be the gateway to real change. My point is that the offer to the electorate is the key here. What gets you the ticket to the dance. Electoral politics has to be the priority for Starmer right now.

I think Labour are genuinely worried about what they will inherit from the Tories. The feeling is the room for action is limited. From today's Reeves interview in the Guardian:

"What is the biggest obstacle to victory? “People trusting us with the public finances,” she says, immediately. “It’s so frustrating, because the Tories have destroyed the public finances and family finances, but when we do focus groups with key voters – people who have voted Labour in the past, but have voted Conservative in the last couple of elections – if you ask: ‘What might stop you from voting for Labour?’ it’s: ‘Can we trust you with the money?’ And it’s my responsibility to make sure when people go to the ballot box next year they think: ‘I can trust her with the money.’”

According to the Centre for European Reform, there has been an annual £40bn tax drop because of Brexit – equivalent to 34% of the yearly UK education budget, or 21% of the NHS budget. Although Labour proposes abolishing non-dom tax status (to raise about £3.6bn), ending tax breaks for private schools (£1.7bn) and closing the private equity tax loophole (£500m), that still leaves a shortfall of about £34bn. How would she make it up? “Well, look, we do need to reform our trading relationship with the European Union,” she says. “That is absolutely costing us. The botched Brexit deal is not good enough.”

She doesn’t hold back on just how tough things will be if Labour triumphs. “I don’t think any government will have as bad an economic inheritance as we’re going to get if we win the next election. Debt-to-GDP ratio 100%; inflation where it is; interest rates where they are; growth on the floor; wages no higher than they were in 2010.” She insists the route to success is growing the economy via the green prosperity plan"

And this from Streeting's Guardian article this week: 

"Labour faces two big hurdles – both largely of the Conservatives’ making, both of which will make our job more difficult. The first is the car crash of the public finances. The Conservatives’ ideological joyride of a budget last year has left everyone paying the price through higher rents, higher mortgages and higher bills. Keir and Rachel Reeves face tougher choices than Tony Blair and Gordon Brown in 1997. As Keir said in his conference speech in September, this means there will be good Labour things we want to do but won’t be able to promise. (Second) We face a huge deficit of trust in politics too. It’s a far bigger problem for us than it is for the Tories. As Britain’s progressive party, Labour is where people turn when they believe things can get better. When cynicism wins, so do the Tories. It falls to us to win public confidence in the Labour party and in the ability of politics to be a force for good.

That’s why we are being so careful to only make promises we know we can keep. The only thing worse than no hope is false hope. It will disappoint some of our friends that we are not pledging support for every cause they believe in. But it would be so much more damaging to make promises now and then break them after the election. Ask the Lib Dems what far-fetched promises on tuition fees did for them."

[steve]

graham
I'm not sure your argument about disappointment with Blair holds any water given the Blair government was re-elected with close to a 200 seat majority.

In any case Starmer isn't a Blair, more's the pity.

[domjg]

Jul 10, 2023 9:41:38 GMT pjw1961 said:

Jul 10, 2023 7:43:49 GMT crossbat11 said:

moby

Crikey moby, that is a good post, certainly in terms of articulating my position on these matters. That's not to say some won't legitimately disagree with where you and I and others are coming from, but, from my perspective, you've nailed it.

The hostility to Starmer from the right is predictable and understandable, but the depth of antagonism from the left is astonishing to me. The fact that these two spectrums of British politics are now making common cause on the issue is very disappointing when you think of the political and electoral consequences of derailing Starmer.

The Tories want to derail him quite naturally, but what's in it for the Left? Surely a tepid social democratic government, if that's what they think Starmer will oversee, is better than the only viable electoral alternative to that which is yet another Tory-led Government?

Maybe we live in a country and electoral system where tepid social democratic governments are the only non-Tory governments that ever get elected. That's Starmer's calculation I'm guessing, and I think he may be right.



P.S. That's not to say either that a "tepid" social democratic government cannot and will not do good things and be the gateway to real change. My point is that the offer to the electorate is the key here. What gets you the ticket to the dance. Electoral politics has to be the priority for Starmer right now.

I think Labour are genuinely worried about what they will inherit from the Tories. The feeling is the room for action is limited. From today's Reeves interview in the Guardian:

"What is the biggest obstacle to victory? “People trusting us with the public finances,” she says, immediately. “It’s so frustrating, because the Tories have destroyed the public finances and family finances, but when we do focus groups with key voters – people who have voted Labour in the past, but have voted Conservative in the last couple of elections – if you ask: ‘What might stop you from voting for Labour?’ it’s: ‘Can we trust you with the money?’ And it’s my responsibility to make sure when people go to the ballot box next year they think: ‘I can trust her with the money.’”

According to the Centre for European Reform, there has been an annual £40bn tax drop because of Brexit – equivalent to 34% of the yearly UK education budget, or 21% of the NHS budget. Although Labour proposes abolishing non-dom tax status (to raise about £3.6bn), ending tax breaks for private schools (£1.7bn) and closing the private equity tax loophole (£500m), that still leaves a shortfall of about £34bn. How would she make it up? “Well, look, we do need to reform our trading relationship with the European Union,” she says. “That is absolutely costing us. The botched Brexit deal is not good enough.”

She doesn’t hold back on just how tough things will be if Labour triumphs. “I don’t think any government will have as bad an economic inheritance as we’re going to get if we win the next election. Debt-to-GDP ratio 100%; inflation where it is; interest rates where they are; growth on the floor; wages no higher than they were in 2010.” She insists the route to success is growing the economy via the green prosperity plan"

And this from Streeting's Guardian article this week: 

"Labour faces two big hurdles – both largely of the Conservatives’ making, both of which will make our job more difficult. The first is the car crash of the public finances. The Conservatives’ ideological joyride of a budget last year has left everyone paying the price through higher rents, higher mortgages and higher bills. Keir and Rachel Reeves face tougher choices than Tony Blair and Gordon Brown in 1997. As Keir said in his conference speech in September, this means there will be good Labour things we want to do but won’t be able to promise. (Second) We face a huge deficit of trust in politics too. It’s a far bigger problem for us than it is for the Tories. As Britain’s progressive party, Labour is where people turn when they believe things can get better. When cynicism wins, so do the Tories. It falls to us to win public confidence in the Labour party and in the ability of politics to be a force for good.

That’s why we are being so careful to only make promises we know we can keep. The only thing worse than no hope is false hope. It will disappoint some of our friends that we are not pledging support for every cause they believe in. But it would be so much more damaging to make promises now and then break them after the election. Ask the Lib Dems what far-fetched promises on tuition fees did for them."

Frustrating is the word. For a certain part of the electorate their relationship to the tory party is like an abusive relationship where they are unwilling to open their eyes to the abuse of trust being meted out to them and cling to by now utterly obviously false tropes like the tories being more responsible with the economy and public finances. 

[leftieliberal]

A good article on Party funding in The Guardian: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/10/british-political-giving-rich-abuse-tory-labour-election British political giving is increasingly dominated by the rich – it’s a system ripe for abuse
It really illustrates why we need state-funding of political parties in the UK, perhaps in the form of a tick box on one's income tax form that allows one to donate up to, say, £100 of one's income tax to a named registered political party, combined with a ban on donations above, say, £1000 per annum.

[steve]

graham
There is no real comparison between Franco and Hitler, Franco was authoritarian and ruthless and felt little concern about the murder and imprisonment of his opponents, he wasn't however a deranged sadistic psychopath determined to eliminate huge chunks of the population or spread his malicious regime to the rest of the world.
He also oversaw a period of sustained economic growth in Spain and over time moved away from the extremes of authoritarianism.
There's a reason why Franco unlike his contemporary dictators got to die of natural causes in old age.

[domjg]

Jul 10, 2023 9:26:46 GMT pjw1961 said:

The really depressing thing about the rise of "right wing populists" in Europe and the anglophone world (and lets be honest, we are really talking neo-fascism here) is that the mainstream conservative right should be standing with the centre and moderate left in opposing them and making it clear they are completely beyond the pale. Instead, the more moderate right and their media supporters frequently indulge the extremists in every way and are happy to enter into electoral alliances with them. In FPTP countries where the need for coalitions is less, the far right have essentially been able to take over the Republican Party with minimal opposition from conservatives and the UK Conservative Party shows signs of going the same way, indulging the likes of Braverman as Home Secretary making openly racist and xenophobic remarks and policies.

The only conclusion I can draw is that the entire right is not fully committed to democracy and the rule of law. All very disturbing.

"The only conclusion I can draw is that the entire right is not fully committed to democracy and the rule of law. All very disturbing." - Perhaps what they were always really only committed to was power and while a commitment to democracy and the rule of law was required to exercise that power they'd be committed to that to but if not, well.. 

Only some of them though. There are and always were a great many people on the right who believe very strongly in the rule of law and precedent even in America, though they're currently keeping quiet. 

Even the CDU/CSU in Germany have lurched to the right since Merkel and sometimes play nice with the AfD in the eastern states at least. 

[steve]

Interesting take this morning on the nature of news.

Last week saw the four highest day temperatures ever recorded in the world.

But look over there orange confetti!

[domjg]

Interestingly it looks like Rutte has announced he's quitting politics so maybe in ending the coalition he led he was seeking to save his party and give a new leader of it the best chance rather than maneuvering for himself.

Whatever you think of him and regardless of whether he was seriously calling for children of refugees not to be allowed to join their families and it was still a shitty political tool to use, I nonetheless couldn't help but enjoy watching him drive away from the prime minister's office and arrive to explain events to the king in an ancient Saab 93, similar to one I owned and loved many years ago!

[shevii]

Jul 10, 2023 9:54:56 GMT leftieliberal said:

A good article on Party funding in The Guardian: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/10/british-political-giving-rich-abuse-tory-labour-election British political giving is increasingly dominated by the rich – it’s a system ripe for abuse
It really illustrates why we need state-funding of political parties in the UK, perhaps in the form of a tick box on one's income tax form that allows one to donate up to, say, £100 of one's income tax to a named registered political party, combined with a ban on donations above, say, £1000 per annum.

Labour had a member (and union) funded party under Corbyn- no big donations from the rich were needed and they cleared all the inherited debt and left the party debt free in 2019 after three elections in 4 years.  But they have ditched this model in favour of big business donations. So now it is an issue again.

[graham]

Jul 10, 2023 9:48:00 GMT steve said:

graham
I'm not sure your argument about disappointment with Blair holds any water given the Blair government was re-elected with close to a 200 seat majority.

In any case Starmer isn't a Blair, more's the pity.

Blair was re-elected in 2001 on an appallingly low turnout of less than 60% - the lowest since the arrival of universal suffrage in 1928.People did not want the Tories back at that stage - but Labour voters were already abstaining in droves.

[alurqa]

Jul 10, 2023 10:05:32 GMT steve said:

Interesting take this morning on the nature of news.

Last week saw the four highest day temperatures ever recorded in the world.

But look over there orange confetti!

Haven't got time. I'm still trying to work out who the BBC presenter is...

[alec]

July 6th was believed to be the warmest day ever recorded by global climate scientists, and the website Flightrader24 calculated that July 7th was the busiest ever day for commercial air travel, with 20,000+ flights logged.

A neat demonstration that humanity has an unerring capacity to close it's eyes and ears to data and pretend everything will be just fine.

Applies also to covid, as ever. I'm always entertained to see how different classes operate in the new covid-rich environment, and it's rather telling. While you won't see this covered in the media, there is now a growing ecology of expensive bio-security industries serving the needs of the wealthy and influential. This is a good example - event-scan.us/

Event Scan offer covid secure event services to the corporate sector, on a global scale, and a quick scan of their happy customers reveals some interesting names, right down from the White House to Samsung, Pepsi and UPS. Space X is there too, which sits oddly alongside Elon Musk's statements on covid and getting his workers back into offices. Surely it can't be that top bosses like Musk make sure they're protected, while lecturing their workers about how covid is no biggie? Doesn't that make you think? If we really did need to catch covid regularly to stay healthy and keep our immune systems fit and strong, don't you think Musk, Biden et al would be screaming at their minions to 'get me infected'?

Funny old world, isn't it. Ever feel you're being suckered?

Elsewhere, it's filtering into the real world. Here, a Canadian insurance company declines an application for life insurance because the applicant has long covid -

This will be a developing story everywhere, and in countries with insurance based healthcare, it's already playing through the system in terms of access to cover. Less of an impact in the UK, but our benefits system doesn't formally recognise long covid and the NHS is shambolic in it's approach to treating both long covid and other post acute phase health impacts stemming from infection. We're not even looking for it, despite multiple studies showing that at least 10% of the population is likely to have some form of this condition. You present to your GP with whatever odd symptoms you may have, and you're not questioned about your infection history, not tested for micro clots, not offered any diagnostics other than standard tests which are proven to not register residual spike proteins or the multiple other biomarkers that denote long covid. At least in the US the CDC has published guidelines about how to record deaths from covid beyond the 28 day acute phase. In the UK, we're closing down long covid clinics, pulling the research funding and genuinely pretending it isn't happening.

Unless you're the CEO of a big corporate, when you spend shareholders cash to make sure you'll stay healthy.

[shevii]

Jul 10, 2023 8:43:45 GMT domjg said:

Jul 10, 2023 7:43:49 GMT crossbat11 said:

"what's in it for the Left?" - I'm afraid for some though by no means all on the further left there's a revolutionary element to this and they are quite happy for the tories to remain in power and drag the country down and down as some of them believe only that will eventually force people into accepting more sudden, revolutionary change. In the meantime of course many would suffer but for some of these people it's more about an egotistical self-validation of their beliefs and 'means justifiying the ends' than concern about the effects on 'real people' to use a colinism. Most of them will be fairly economically cushioned from the effects themselves as well. It's alll about them, not about the country. All quite selfish and unpleasant. 

Revolutionaries have an interest in keeping people in a state of despair as that aids their revolutionary message. Just like Islamic fundamentalists. 

It's an absolute nonsense to suggest there is a revolutionary purity among the left or that any significant number of left wingers prefer the Tories stay in power so the system crashes and burns.  Maybe you got this idea from student days where one or two idiots might have put this forward as a theory?

You're making excuses for a non existent offer from Labour to change anything.  Of course public finances are in a mess and of course there has to be some recognition that Labour can't "do everything". That doesn't mean they have to ditch all the taxation pledges Starmer made when he was standing for Labour leadership.  It's the exact same excuse Nick Clegg made for his choice to back austerity, an austerity that tanked the economy.

Labour have committed to Tory tax and spending plans until there is "growth" and yet not just under the Tories in the UK but in much of Europe there has been virtually no growth since 2008. So people are going to suffer in exactly the same way they are doing under the Tories unless Labour makes an offer that changes the dynamics- why would it not be so?

[leftieliberal]

Jul 10, 2023 9:56:56 GMT steve said:

graham
There is no real comparison between Franco and Hitler, Franco was authoritarian and ruthless and felt little concern about the murder and imprisonment of his opponents, he wasn't however a deranged sadistic psychopath determined to eliminate huge chunks of the population or spread his malicious regime to the rest of the world.
He also oversaw a period of sustained economic growth in Spain and over time moved away from the extremes of authoritarianism.
There's a reason why Franco unlike his contemporary dictators got to die of natural causes in old age.

Mussolini in Italy didn't start out determined to eliminate huge chunks of his population or spread his malicious regime either. That came as a result of deciding to ally himself with Hitler. Margherita Sarfatti who was one of Mussolini's mistresses and his biographer was Jewish. If you have ever seen the film "The Garden of the Finzi-Continis" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Garden_of_the_Finzi-Continis you will appreciate that the treatment of Jews in Italy wasn't like in Germany and the deportation of Jews to German concentration camps took place under the puppet Italian Social Republic (which although headed by Mussolini, was firmly under the thumb of the Germans). Mussolini might well have lasted as long as Franco had he not made the mistake of allying with Hitler; the recent Channel 5 series on the rise of the Nazis from the Anschluss to the outbreak of WW2 showed both the British and French politicians treating Mussolini as fully independent of Hitler and as a trusted third-party who could persuade Hitler to limit his territorial ambitions. Famously, Mussolini also made the Italian trains run on time.

[leftieliberal]

Jul 10, 2023 10:14:15 GMT shevii said:

Jul 10, 2023 9:54:56 GMT leftieliberal said:

A good article on Party funding in The Guardian: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/10/british-political-giving-rich-abuse-tory-labour-election British political giving is increasingly dominated by the rich – it’s a system ripe for abuse
It really illustrates why we need state-funding of political parties in the UK, perhaps in the form of a tick box on one's income tax form that allows one to donate up to, say, £100 of one's income tax to a named registered political party, combined with a ban on donations above, say, £1000 per annum.

Labour had a member (and union) funded party under Corbyn- no big donations from the rich were needed and they cleared all the inherited debt and left the party debt free in 2019 after three elections in 4 years.  But they have ditched this model in favour of big business donations. So now it is an issue again.

You put your finger on the problem. Union funding of the Labour party meant that Labour could never go against the wishes of the big Trade Unions, which was why Barbara Castle's "In Place of Strife" failed. While in Germany after WW2 our trade unions were instrumental in ensuring a co-operative approach in industry there with workers represented on company boards, they were never willing to do the same in this country even when in the 1970s it would have benefited both sides. Had "In Place of Strife" succeeded we might very well have seen Labour governments throughout the 1970s. 

[leftieliberal]

Why inflation is so sticky: www.newstatesman.com/business/economics/2023/07/algorithms-stoking-inflation

You don't need greedy capitalists for inflation to take off, just algorithms.

[Deleted]

Jul 10, 2023 10:07:35 GMT domjg said:

Interestingly it looks like Rutte has announced he's quitting politics so maybe in ending the coalition he led he was seeking to save his party and give a new leader of it the best chance rather than maneuvering for himself.

Whatever you think of him and regardless of whether he was seriously calling for children of refugees not to be allowed to join their families and it was still a shitty political tool to use, I nonetheless couldn't help but enjoy watching him drive away from the prime minister's office and arrive to explain events to the king in an ancient Saab 93, similar to one I owned and loved many years ago!

Holland's longest serving PM -since 2010 ( why does that ring a bell ?).

A big figure in pan European politics. He seemed very pragmatic to me -a master of the art of coalition government. I always thought of him as a "friend" to UK-like minded on most things. A Hanseatic League2 man in tune with the Northern European approach to trade and economics. 

I wonder if one can see any significance in the passing of another EU big beast of the pragmatic centre-like Merkel.?

At EU level Rutte was at the heart of Union level attempts to pay Tunisia's autocrat to stop the ( Mediterranean ) boats , while failing to get  migration control policies through his own government.

www.euronews.com/2023/07/07/dutch-government-reportedly-collapses-after-failure-to-reach-agreement-on-asylum-measures

He also generated political resistance in implementing emission control policies.

Both of these issues-unregulated immigration , and emission control are going to get more and more significant . If they aren't handled in a way which meets with voter approval , pragmatists like Rutte will be replaced:-


www.politico.eu/article/eu-climate-change-farmers-protest-scapegoat-green-deal-food-security-agriculture-biodiversity-nature-restoration-law/


www.politico.eu/article/robert-habeck-germany-picks-up-climate/

[domjg]

So Prigozhin and his men appear to be still free to roam the Russian federation, consequence free, and Putin even met with him in the days after he threatened to topple the state and destroyed Russian military assets, killing Russian servicemen. I'm not sure what the implications of that are but it's pretty extraordinary when ordinary Russians can be arrested for non fully supportive social media posts.

[leftieliberal]

Jul 10, 2023 9:26:46 GMT pjw1961 said:

The really depressing thing about the rise of "right wing populists" in Europe and the anglophone world (and lets be honest, we are really talking neo-fascism here) is that the mainstream conservative right should be standing with the centre and moderate left in opposing them and making it clear they are completely beyond the pale. Instead, the more moderate right and their media supporters frequently indulge the extremists in every way and are happy to enter into electoral alliances with them. In FPTP countries where the need for coalitions is less, the far right have essentially been able to take over the Republican Party with minimal opposition from conservatives and the UK Conservative Party shows signs of going the same way, indulging the likes of Braverman as Home Secretary making openly racist and xenophobic remarks and policies.

The only conclusion I can draw is that the entire right is not fully committed to democracy and the rule of law. All very disturbing.

Here's Philip Cunliffe largely agreeing with you: www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2023/07/britain-liberal-nation-europe
I am dubious about him describing us as the last liberal nation in Europe, though. Iceland and Norway still figure pretty high (and certainly higher than the UK) in the league table of liberal nations.

[steve]

Great uncle Joe meets Rishi from accounts.

Incidentally Sunakered 's own bio page makes no reference at all to the fact that his meteoric rise from graduate trainee to a six figure salary in less than two years coincided with marrying one of the richest women in the world, must have been an oversight!



Attachment Deleted

[pjw1961]

Jul 10, 2023 10:48:38 GMT leftieliberal said:

Jul 10, 2023 9:56:56 GMT steve said:

graham
There is no real comparison between Franco and Hitler, Franco was authoritarian and ruthless and felt little concern about the murder and imprisonment of his opponents, he wasn't however a deranged sadistic psychopath determined to eliminate huge chunks of the population or spread his malicious regime to the rest of the world.
He also oversaw a period of sustained economic growth in Spain and over time moved away from the extremes of authoritarianism.
There's a reason why Franco unlike his contemporary dictators got to die of natural causes in old age.

Mussolini in Italy didn't start out determined to eliminate huge chunks of his population or spread his malicious regime either. That came as a result of deciding to ally himself with Hitler. Margherita Sarfatti who was one of Mussolini's mistresses and his biographer was Jewish. If you have ever seen the film "The Garden of the Finzi-Continis" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Garden_of_the_Finzi-Continis you will appreciate that the treatment of Jews in Italy wasn't like in Germany and the deportation of Jews to German concentration camps took place under the puppet Italian Social Republic (which although headed by Mussolini, was firmly under the thumb of the Germans). Mussolini might well have lasted as long as Franco had he not made the mistake of allying with Hitler; the recent Channel 5 series on the rise of the Nazis from the Anschluss to the outbreak of WW2 showed both the British and French politicians treating Mussolini as fully independent of Hitler and as a trusted third-party who could persuade Hitler to limit his territorial ambitions. Famously, Mussolini also made the Italian trains run on time.

Don't forget that Mussolini invaded Ethiopia and used poison gas bombs against the population and that had nothing to do with Hitler. Not a nice guy. The reason Franco lasted so long is he avoided getting involved with foreign wars so only had to worry about internal opposition which he crushed with great brutality. Also not a nice guy. 

[pjw1961]

Jul 10, 2023 10:00:36 GMT domjg said:

Jul 10, 2023 9:26:46 GMT pjw1961 said:

The really depressing thing about the rise of "right wing populists" in Europe and the anglophone world (and lets be honest, we are really talking neo-fascism here) is that the mainstream conservative right should be standing with the centre and moderate left in opposing them and making it clear they are completely beyond the pale. Instead, the more moderate right and their media supporters frequently indulge the extremists in every way and are happy to enter into electoral alliances with them. In FPTP countries where the need for coalitions is less, the far right have essentially been able to take over the Republican Party with minimal opposition from conservatives and the UK Conservative Party shows signs of going the same way, indulging the likes of Braverman as Home Secretary making openly racist and xenophobic remarks and policies.

The only conclusion I can draw is that the entire right is not fully committed to democracy and the rule of law. All very disturbing.

"The only conclusion I can draw is that the entire right is not fully committed to democracy and the rule of law. All very disturbing." - Perhaps what they were always really only committed to was power and while a commitment to democracy and the rule of law was required to exercise that power they'd be committed to that to but if not, well.. 

Only some of them though. There are and always were a great many people on the right who believe very strongly in the rule of law and precedent even in America, though they're currently keeping quiet. 

Even the CDU/CSU in Germany have lurched to the right since Merkel and sometimes play nice with the AfD in the eastern states at least. 

In fairness, I don't think so re the bold-ed part - it is hard to imagine Eden, MacMillan, Heath, Major - or in fairness to her - even Thatcher as fellow travellers with the far right (although Thatcher did like Pinochet and apartheid South Africa rather too much). I think the experience of World War II inoculated a generation who had lived through it against that. Same with a Republican like Eisenhower in the US. There are still many decent Tories now - although Boris Johnson threw a lot of them out of the party. The dispiriting bit is the lack of fight they are putting up.   

[Danny]

Jul 10, 2023 9:19:59 GMT leftieliberal said:

In days of old when famines were more common, these genes had positive survival value. It is only now in the modern Western world where there is an oversupply of food that we see their effect in obesity and the health effects associated with it. Attacking people who have these genes as merely lacking willpower to keep their weight down is really no different to attacking people for their skin colour.

In days of old if it did happen there was a superabundance of food then those with potential to become obese and die from it would do so, thereby reducing the proportion with those genes in the next generation. The natural racial optimisation solution is to let the fat die.

In keeping them alive we create for ourselves this problem of a population mismatched to a superabundant food supply. But of course, this superabundance may prove to have been quite temporary.

[pjw1961]

Jul 10, 2023 11:19:48 GMT leftieliberal said:

Jul 10, 2023 9:26:46 GMT pjw1961 said:

The really depressing thing about the rise of "right wing populists" in Europe and the anglophone world (and lets be honest, we are really talking neo-fascism here) is that the mainstream conservative right should be standing with the centre and moderate left in opposing them and making it clear they are completely beyond the pale. Instead, the more moderate right and their media supporters frequently indulge the extremists in every way and are happy to enter into electoral alliances with them. In FPTP countries where the need for coalitions is less, the far right have essentially been able to take over the Republican Party with minimal opposition from conservatives and the UK Conservative Party shows signs of going the same way, indulging the likes of Braverman as Home Secretary making openly racist and xenophobic remarks and policies.

The only conclusion I can draw is that the entire right is not fully committed to democracy and the rule of law. All very disturbing.

Here's Philip Cunliffe largely agreeing with you: www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2023/07/britain-liberal-nation-europe
I am dubious about him describing us as the last liberal nation in Europe, though. Iceland and Norway still figure pretty high (and certainly higher than the UK) in the league table of liberal nations.

Agreeing on the conclusion perhaps but Cunliffe's analysis of the cause seems borderline bonkers IMO. I could chunter on as to why, but people can read it for themselves.


  

[Deleted]

Jul 10, 2023 11:19:48 GMT leftieliberal said:

Jul 10, 2023 9:26:46 GMT pjw1961 said:

The really depressing thing about the rise of "right wing populists" in Europe and the anglophone world (and lets be honest, we are really talking neo-fascism here) is that the mainstream conservative right should be standing with the centre and moderate left in opposing them and making it clear they are completely beyond the pale. Instead, the more moderate right and their media supporters frequently indulge the extremists in every way and are happy to enter into electoral alliances with them. In FPTP countries where the need for coalitions is less, the far right have essentially been able to take over the Republican Party with minimal opposition from conservatives and the UK Conservative Party shows signs of going the same way, indulging the likes of Braverman as Home Secretary making openly racist and xenophobic remarks and policies.

The only conclusion I can draw is that the entire right is not fully committed to democracy and the rule of law. All very disturbing.

Here's Philip Cunliffe largely agreeing with you: www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2023/07/britain-liberal-nation-europe
I am dubious about him describing us as the last liberal nation in Europe, though. Iceland and Norway still figure pretty high (and certainly higher than the UK) in the league table of liberal nations.

Would like to read that but it's paywalled.🙁

[domjg]

Jul 10, 2023 11:55:50 GMT pjw1961 said:

Jul 10, 2023 11:19:48 GMT leftieliberal said:

Here's Philip Cunliffe largely agreeing with you: www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2023/07/britain-liberal-nation-europe
I am dubious about him describing us as the last liberal nation in Europe, though. Iceland and Norway still figure pretty high (and certainly higher than the UK) in the league table of liberal nations.

Agreeing on the conclusion perhaps but Cunliffe's analysis of the cause seems borderline bonkers IMO. I could chunter on as to why, but people can read it for themselves.


  

Perhaps Britain is turning away from populism sooner because unlike other major European countries we've actually lived though the reality of populist government and have seen firsthand that it brings nothing good. 

[neilj]

Jul 10, 2023 12:04:36 GMT colin said:

Jul 10, 2023 11:19:48 GMT leftieliberal said:

Here's Philip Cunliffe largely agreeing with you: www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2023/07/britain-liberal-nation-europe
I am dubious about him describing us as the last liberal nation in Europe, though. Iceland and Norway still figure pretty high (and certainly higher than the UK) in the league table of liberal nations.

Would like to read that but it's paywalled.🙁

If you use the below (12 foot) you can read it
12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newstatesman.com%2Fworld%2Feurope%2F2023%2F07%2Fbritain-liberal-nation-europe

[Deleted]

Jul 10, 2023 12:30:57 GMT neilj said:

Jul 10, 2023 12:04:36 GMT colin said:

Would like to read that but it's paywalled.🙁

If you use the below (12 foot) you can read it
12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newstatesman.com%2Fworld%2Feurope%2F2023%2F07%2Fbritain-liberal-nation-europe

Thanks

Very interesting 

[Mark]

Jul 10, 2023 11:10:46 GMT leftieliberal said:

Why inflation is so sticky: www.newstatesman.com/business/economics/2023/07/algorithms-stoking-inflation

You don't need greedy capitalists for inflation to take off, just algorithms.

An Interesting article, but, one that I think is flawed.

Yes, there are times where prices go up due to increased expected demand. The article cites taxis on a rainy night.

It's no secret that takeaways and restaurants put their prices up, sometimes up to 100@% on New Years Eve.

Where I think the article is wrong, however, is that most of the time, algorithms push prices downward.

Examples of this being price comparison websites, and Tesco advertising price matches with Aldi.

Yes, algorithms *can* push prices upwards, but, rarely do.

The classic example of this is "penny sellers" on Amazon. For CDs, there are a fair few of them.

They have software that prices every CD in stock at 1p lower than the cheapest. The prices are pdated hourly.

When 2 penny sellers have the same CD in stock, each hour, one undercuts the other and vice versa, so the price comes down by 2p. On titles where both has loads of copies in stock, that means a price reduction of 48p a day until one runs out, or, is more common, the price comes doen to, literally a penny.

[steve]

It was a simpler time when the Tory regime was selecting their choice to replace May as our Prime minister.

The potential candidates now are no better.

Attachment Deleted