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Post by eor on May 3, 2023 22:27:22 GMT
So, to 1983, and people blame Foot and his policies for the electoral outcome. But actually Foot was doing rather well, until two things happened: firstly, the splitting of the vote once the SDP broke away, and you can see how the Labour vote falls in tandem with the rise of the Alliance vote following the Limehouse Declaration etc.:  There's been some interesting back and forth resulting from this but your actual premise is shaky to say the least. Foot became Labour leader in mid-November 1980, which makes your chart also look like immediate, precipitous decline ensued from the relatively strong position prior to him becoming leader. Of course there will be an array of reasons for that, including media coverage and internal feuds and the SDP but the idea he was ever "doing rather well" doesn't seem to fit with your data. |
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Post by mercian on May 3, 2023 22:28:21 GMT
Jib and Mercian have very kindly confirmed what type of brexitanians they are. They fit firmly in the category of those who faced with the overwhelming evidence that their choice is an on going failure choose to pretend it isn't and at some point in the indeterminate long term we will reach the sun lit uplands. The fact that the U.K. is losing £1 million an hour because of Brexit and there is a clear and quantifiable loss of our rights because of Brexit is ignored because of some illusory claim that we have recovered something we never lost in the first place. I haven't actually noticed any difference in anything post-Brexit except that we no longer have to put up with new EU rules, though the government is taking it's time scrapping the ones we already have. |
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on May 3, 2023 22:30:41 GMT
mercian Precisely how do you think you make a voluntary donation to the HMRC Most people would regard an individual who ranks in the richest thousand in the UK such as Rishi Sunak as rich and would find it bizarre that he pays a tax rate nearly 40% lower than the head of his own police close protection team and 35% less than his cleaner I suppose you could send them a cheque with a covering letter. I'm surprised that there doesn't appear to be a way of doing it on the internet, as I'm sure some public-spirited (or guilty-feeling) individuals would donate. I seem to remember that this used to occasionally until the 1920s at least when businessmen became successful and caught up with taxes they had avoided earlier in their careers. No - as I said earlier that would be meaningless to the Revenue. They would just offset the payment against your tax liability. It is impossible to make voluntary donations to the Treasury. You can donate valuable property to the nation (art etc.) but only as an offset to a liability. |
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Post by crossbat11 on May 3, 2023 22:31:04 GMT
I expect there has been much debate already about the local elections and therefore a danger that I'm treading well-trod ground here with my own belated thoughts. However, I will sally forth, albeit briefly for now. I think it is beyond much doubt that the Tories are going to have a pretty dreadful day tomorrow and that their opponents will have a good one. The Tories will seek succour in some inevitable isolated wins against the head, and are defending a pretty dreadful performance when these councils were last contested, therefore down to the bare bones already, but they may lose further ground in areas that have become symbolic parliamentary captures for them in recent times. These losses may have disproportionate effects on already damaged party morale. Conversely, Labour and the Lib Dems particularly, may be able to point to highly significant regional advances that outweigh overall statistical gains. Some flagship Councils may fall from Tory control. The detail will be fascinating but, as ever, especially this close to a general election, projected national vote share will be important, as will signs of Tory retreats in GE battleground regions.
My sense is that the Tories have gone past a tipping point where scale of defeat is the only real equation for them now. I think its over. The Truss-Kwarteng interregnum was a Black Wednesday moment for the party. Voter alienation is deep-seated and irreversible. The polls suggest so, despite MOE twitching and a slight drift from fantasy Labour leads of six months ago. Public opinion and voter intention look pretty solid to me with a lot of minds now made up. It's difficult to see what set of political and economic circumstances can change this over the next 12 months. The leader switch to Sunak seems to have done nothing more than stop the rot. His personal approval ratings are poor and his party still languish in the late 20s. Labour have been solid 40-45% for what seems a very long time now. I sense a settled will for a change of government and a confidence amongst the public that one is on the way. That's a pretty irresistible combination of sentiments when they align.
I expect tomorrow's local election results to consolidate this overall national picture. The Tories are doomed, although I suspect, as the trap door opens beneath them, it's going to get very ugly.
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Post by mercian on May 3, 2023 22:31:08 GMT
What about all the unprecedented handouts to help with fuel costs? I suppose that doesn't count because the Tories did it? It doesnt count first because it was not designed to help the poor, it wasnt redistributive. And second because con essentailly had no choice but to do it, so it wasnt their policy at all. 🤣 I'm glad you chaps are getting the hang of this humour business! |
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Post by eor on May 3, 2023 22:38:11 GMT
Good to see you back crossbat11 - I've been wondering how far your Cup odyssey took you? |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,680
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on May 3, 2023 22:44:12 GMT
So, to 1983, and people blame Foot and his policies for the electoral outcome. But actually Foot was doing rather well, until two things happened: firstly, the splitting of the vote once the SDP broke away, and you can see how the Labour vote falls in tandem with the rise of the Alliance vote following the Limehouse Declaration etc.: There's been some interesting back and forth resulting from this but your actual premise is shaky to say the least. Foot became Labour leader in mid-November 1980, which makes your chart also look like immediate, precipitous decline ensued from the relatively strong position prior to him becoming leader. Of course there will be an array of reasons for that, including media coverage and internal feuds and the SDP but the idea he was ever "doing rather well" doesn't seem to fit with your data. if you look at the actual polls after he became leader and before Limehouse it looks rather better than the graph line. Polling was pretty stable plus a couple above fifty after he became leader until Limehouse… 24 Jan 45% 19 Jan 46.5% 9 Jan 51.2% 19 Dec 56% 15 Dec 47.5% 4 Dec 47.7% 17 Nov 47% 11 Nov 47% |
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Post by Rafwan on May 3, 2023 22:55:40 GMT
“Can you explain how we could kick out even the British EU Commissioners?”
The Commissioners are appointed and dismissed by elected national governments. More important, EU laws must be approved by the democratically elected European Parliament. It is staggering how the idea of a “democratic deficit” gained any kind of purchase. Similarly the ideas of “loss of sovereignty”. It is crass nonsense. Please stop it.
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Post by mercian on May 3, 2023 23:03:27 GMT
I'm not a big fan of people claiming the unproveable claim they'd be happy to be poor as long as they got brexit as brexit really has made some poorer and suffer and after all those brexit promises of riches for the NHS and cheaper food etc. Indeed. It is heard not from people of working age but from the comfortable retired who were perfectly aware they'd be cushioned from the impacts of their 'lets make Britain what it was like when we were young' game and who, to be blunt, don't give a toss about the impacts on those still working in the economy including I'm afraid often, their own children. If that's aimed at me, which I assume it is because I'm the one who stated that view, I would say that I wasn't perfectly aware that I'd be cushioned from Brexit effects. I did expect some short-term economic turbulence which is happening, but I'm not sure it's attributable to Brexit because of Covid and Putin. And I do care about my children and they're all doing well and they haven't noticed any Brexit-related problems either, |
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Post by Rafwan on May 3, 2023 23:03:28 GMT
Like pjw, I would be happy to pay more tax, though to be clear I do only pay basic rate. The idea that this should be done “voluntarily” is pitiful. “Voluntary tax” is an oxymoron. The main reason I would be happy is that it would be part of a fair and equitable tax regime.
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on May 3, 2023 23:24:06 GMT
Like pjw, I would be happy to pay more tax, though to be clear I do only pay basic rate. The idea that this should be done “voluntarily” is pitiful. “Voluntary tax” is an oxymoron. The main reason I would be happy is that it would be part of a fair and equitable tax regime.
Indeed, we would both want the unfair and inequitable UK tax regime to be altered to end the "tax on employment" that is NI contributions, if it weren't for the fact that the extra revenue would accrue to the UK Treasury, and not ScotGov. |
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Post by mercian on May 3, 2023 23:30:10 GMT
That Savanta poll of 18-25 year olds is not as bad as it might be for the Tories. YouGov's last 5 age 18-24 cross breaks average at: Con 9% Lab 60% LD 8% Green 10% If only they could be bothered to vote! (Not that the Tories in their voter suppression legislation are exactly helping). I shall be dragging my 22 year old son to the polling booths for the second time. Do you tell him who to vote for too? |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,680
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on May 3, 2023 23:35:51 GMT
Anything less than 10-point lead in local elections should worry Labour
… “According to the BBC’s “projected national share”, Labour’s best local election performance since 2010 was in 2012. The party, then led by Ed Miliband, was credited with 38 per cent of the vote, seven points ahead of the Conservatives. Sir Keir Starmer’s minimal target is to beat that benchmark.
However, that would not be enough to emulate the performances of Tony Blair before the 1997 general election or of David Cameron before his success in 2010. Labour enjoyed leads of 15 points or more between 1994 and 1996. The same was true of Cameron in 2008 and 2009. Doing quite as well as that might be thought a tall order. But registering at least a double-digit lead should not. Certainly, if Labour’s lead is anything much less than that we will be left wondering whether the party really have as yet sealed a deal with the voters.
Sir John Curtice is professor of politics, Strathclyde University, senior research fellow at NatCen Social Research and writer for The UK in a Changing Europe“
Times Hate to argue with the great Sir John Curtice, but he is wrong there… Well personally I don’t have a problem if you want to argue with him PJ |
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Post by graham on May 3, 2023 23:38:06 GMT
Anything less than 10-point lead in local elections should worry Labour
… “According to the BBC’s “projected national share”, Labour’s best local election performance since 2010 was in 2012. The party, then led by Ed Miliband, was credited with 38 per cent of the vote, seven points ahead of the Conservatives. Sir Keir Starmer’s minimal target is to beat that benchmark.
However, that would not be enough to emulate the performances of Tony Blair before the 1997 general election or of David Cameron before his success in 2010. Labour enjoyed leads of 15 points or more between 1994 and 1996. The same was true of Cameron in 2008 and 2009. Doing quite as well as that might be thought a tall order. But registering at least a double-digit lead should not. Certainly, if Labour’s lead is anything much less than that we will be left wondering whether the party really have as yet sealed a deal with the voters.
Sir John Curtice is professor of politics, Strathclyde University, senior research fellow at NatCen Social Research and writer for The UK in a Changing Europe“
Times Hate to argue with the great Sir John Curtice, but he is wrong there. You cannot compare Tory leads in local elections when in opposition nationally to Labour ones in the same circumstances. Labour ones are always lower due to the competition for anti-Tory votes, a problem the Tories do not face in reverse. This has been much commented on on his site. A Labour lead of 6-8% would still imply the Tories being removed from government at the next election. There are anti-Labour voters who would vote LD or Green rather than Tory. |
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Post by mercian on May 3, 2023 23:38:14 GMT
“The artificial intelligence race is already producing losers. On Tuesday, education companies trading on the London and New York stock exchanges saw hundreds of millions wiped from their valuations after Chegg, a US firm that provides online help to students for writing and maths work, said ChatGPT was affecting customer growth.
The firm said it had seen a “significant spike” in students using the technology, and withdrew its profits guidance for the rest of the year, warning revenues had already been hit. It shares almost halved in value. The ripples were felt in London, where education giant Pearson’s stock closed down 15%.”
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“In the long run I think humans will adapt but in the short term we are talking about businesses having to adapt in a period of weeks rather than months and years. I think that has the potential to cause harm,” he says, adding that there is a gap between the speed of disruption caused by these AI breakthroughs and humanity’s ability to adapt and change.“www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/may/03/ai-race-drives-down-stock-market-valuations-of-education-firms There is something to that - speed of change I mean. But every major technological advance brings winners and losers. There could be massive winners for those who spot an opportunity to disrupt an existing industry or invent a new one! Big losers will be the modern equivalent of clerks - people who are office-based churning out repetitive routine reports for instance. Unfortunately I'm not so good at guessing who will benefit. Apart from mechanics to oil the joints of our forthcoming robot masters of course. 🤣 |
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Post by mercian on May 3, 2023 23:43:42 GMT
Anything less than 10-point lead in local elections should worry Labour
… “According to the BBC’s “projected national share”, Labour’s best local election performance since 2010 was in 2012. The party, then led by Ed Miliband, was credited with 38 per cent of the vote, seven points ahead of the Conservatives. Sir Keir Starmer’s minimal target is to beat that benchmark.
However, that would not be enough to emulate the performances of Tony Blair before the 1997 general election or of David Cameron before his success in 2010. Labour enjoyed leads of 15 points or more between 1994 and 1996. The same was true of Cameron in 2008 and 2009. Doing quite as well as that might be thought a tall order. But registering at least a double-digit lead should not. Certainly, if Labour’s lead is anything much less than that we will be left wondering whether the party really have as yet sealed a deal with the voters.
Sir John Curtice is professor of politics, Strathclyde University, senior research fellow at NatCen Social Research and writer for The UK in a Changing Europe“
Times That does seem to chime with the local by-election results that pjw1961 and I have been looking at for the last few months. Labour's support has been patchy at best and indeed vote share has often declined, despite their polling lead. However, today's elections are widespread enough to be almost a surrogate GE and so may be different. I await the results with interest and wish luck to those on here who are standing, whatever their party. |
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on May 3, 2023 23:45:03 GMT
Hate to argue with the great Sir John Curtice, but he is wrong there. You cannot compare Tory leads in local elections when in opposition nationally to Labour ones in the same circumstances. Labour ones are always lower due to the competition for anti-Tory votes, a problem the Tories do not face in reverse. This has been much commented on on his site. A Labour lead of 6-8% would still imply the Tories being removed from government at the next election.
It's hard, therefore, to see the logic in your argument. |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,680
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on May 3, 2023 23:52:01 GMT
“The artificial intelligence race is already producing losers. On Tuesday, education companies trading on the London and New York stock exchanges saw hundreds of millions wiped from their valuations after Chegg, a US firm that provides online help to students for writing and maths work, said ChatGPT was affecting customer growth.
The firm said it had seen a “significant spike” in students using the technology, and withdrew its profits guidance for the rest of the year, warning revenues had already been hit. It shares almost halved in value. The ripples were felt in London, where education giant Pearson’s stock closed down 15%.”
…
“In the long run I think humans will adapt but in the short term we are talking about businesses having to adapt in a period of weeks rather than months and years. I think that has the potential to cause harm,” he says, adding that there is a gap between the speed of disruption caused by these AI breakthroughs and humanity’s ability to adapt and change.“www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/may/03/ai-race-drives-down-stock-market-valuations-of-education-firms There is something to that - speed of change I mean. But every major technological advance brings winners and losers. There could be massive winners for those who spot an opportunity to disrupt an existing industry or invent a new one! Big losers will be the modern equivalent of clerks - people who are office-based churning out repetitive routine reports for instance. Unfortunately I'm not so good at guessing who will benefit. Apart from mechanics to oil the joints of our forthcoming robot masters of course. 🤣 Thing is, quite a lot of jobs might be awarded in practice more on the basis of language skills than actual analytical skills, not just clerks but quite a lot of managers too, and it will be interesting to see what happens to those. |
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Post by mercian on May 3, 2023 23:59:52 GMT
“Can you explain how we could kick out even the British EU Commissioners?” The Commissioners are appointed and dismissed by elected national governments. More important, EU laws must be approved by the democratically elected European Parliament. It is staggering how the idea of a “democratic deficit” gained any kind of purchase. Similarly the ideas of “loss of sovereignty”. It is crass nonsense. Please stop it. Here's a quote: "...for example, neither the Parliament nor the Council have the power of legislative initiative (except for the fact that the Council has the power in some intergovernmental matters). In Community matters, this is a power uniquely reserved for the European Commission (the executive). Therefore, while Parliament can amend and reject legislation, to make a proposal for legislation, it needs the Commission to draft a bill before anything can become law" In my view, but obviously not yours, that is undemocratic. I have said before that if the EU Parliament was the sovereign body, with the sole ability to initiate legislation, I would not have been so implacably opposed to it. |
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Post by mercian on May 4, 2023 0:07:32 GMT
Like pjw, I would be happy to pay more tax, though to be clear I do only pay basic rate. The idea that this should be done “voluntarily” is pitiful. “Voluntary tax” is an oxymoron. The main reason I would be happy is that it would be part of a fair and equitable tax regime. Well I'd happily pay less tax (not that I pay much in absolute terms). After I had taken my modest NHS pension but carried on working a couple of days a week, I used to really enjoy when the payslips came round and I opened mine and wound up my younger colleagues who were of course earning more and being taxed more than me because they were full-time by carefully perusing my payslip and saying something like "The b*stards have taken £20.51 off me this month!" 🤣 Great fun, though for some reason it didn't get much of a laugh. 🤣 |
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Post by mercian on May 4, 2023 0:23:22 GMT
There is something to that - speed of change I mean. But every major technological advance brings winners and losers. There could be massive winners for those who spot an opportunity to disrupt an existing industry or invent a new one! Big losers will be the modern equivalent of clerks - people who are office-based churning out repetitive routine reports for instance. Unfortunately I'm not so good at guessing who will benefit. Apart from mechanics to oil the joints of our forthcoming robot masters of course. 🤣 Thing is, quite a lot of jobs might be awarded in practice more on the basis of language skills than actual analytical skills, not just clerks but quite a lot of managers too, and it will be interesting to see what happens to those. Yes, my final job was as a senior data analyst. It was a piece of p*ss. Anyway, while I was there the NHS actually did something sensible and decided to merge the analysis departments of 4 or 5 neighbouring Trusts. Obviously redundancies were in the air. I wasn't bothered because I'd been made redundant loads of times. Anyway they gave us some sort of psychological test (Briggs-Myers or something?). I believe it's been debunked now, but it does measure something. It split people into 4 types. Out of the 20 or so people only one fell into the 'Analytical' personality type. Guess who? It all backs up your point. Someone who can blag at an interview can get a job that they are no good at. I only got in by accident as usual. I don't think I had an actual interview. |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on May 4, 2023 0:44:40 GMT
Thing is, quite a lot of jobs might be awarded in practice more on the basis of language skills than actual analytical skills, not just clerks but quite a lot of managers too, and it will be interesting to see what happens to those. Yes, my final job was as a senior data analyst. It was a piece of p*ss. Anyway, while I was there the NHS actually did something sensible and decided to merge the analysis departments of 4 or 5 neighbouring Trusts. Obviously redundancies were in the air. I wasn't bothered because I'd been made redundant loads of times. Anyway they gave us some sort of psychological test (Briggs-Myers or something?). I believe it's been debunked now, but it does measure something. It split people into 4 types. Out of the 20 or so people only one fell into the 'Analytical' personality type. Guess who? It all backs up your point. Someone who can blag at an interview can get a job that they are no good at. I only got in by accident as usual. I don't think I had an actual interview. Well you used to code. And that is something that is often not very fault-tolerant. If you make an error, it can be pretty apparent. Some errors can be harder to spot while with some the program may not work at all. It’s the same if you do lab work say. Get it wrong and it might even catch fire! (And it might well be clear whose error it was. Whereas in some job situations it might be a lot less clear). But if you do an essay or report it can be littered with errors and omissions and it doesn’t usually catch fire, it probably doesn’t even get a bit warm. I discovered that doing some PPE economics essays at Oxford. Much more fault-tolerant. Trouble is then PPE types end up in charge of things like pandemics, which are not necessarily such fault-tolerant affairs... |
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Post by mercian on May 4, 2023 0:53:38 GMT
Well you used to code. And that is something that is often not very fault-tolerant. If you make an error, it can be pretty apparent. The program may not work at all. It’s the same if you do lab work say. Get it wrong and it might even catch fire! (And it might well be clear whose error it was. Whereas in some job situations it might be a lot less clear). But if you do an essay or report it can be littered with errors and omissions and it doesn’t catch fire, it doesn’t even get a bit warm. I discovered that doing some PPE economics essays at Oxford. Much more fault-tolerant. Trouble is then PPE types end up in charge of things like pandemics, which are not necessarily such fault-tolerant affairs... I find the term 'code' as a verb somewhat demeaning but no offence taken. It makes it sound (to me) like some drudge task. I certainly agree that PPE types are over-represented in government. A few more mathematicians and scientists would be useful, but of course most of the good ones have much better things to do than scream abuse at each other in the HoC. |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,680
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on May 4, 2023 0:58:42 GMT
Well you used to code. And that is something that is often not very fault-tolerant. If you make an error, it can be pretty apparent. The program may not work at all. It’s the same if you do lab work say. Get it wrong and it might even catch fire! (And it might well be clear whose error it was. Whereas in some job situations it might be a lot less clear). But if you do an essay or report it can be littered with errors and omissions and it doesn’t catch fire, it doesn’t even get a bit warm. I discovered that doing some PPE economics essays at Oxford. Much more fault-tolerant. Trouble is then PPE types end up in charge of things like pandemics, which are not necessarily such fault-tolerant affairs... I find the term 'code' as a verb somewhat demeaning but no offence taken. It makes it sound (to me) like some drudge task. I certainly agree that PPE types are over-represented in government. A few more mathematicians and scientists would be useful, but of course most of the good ones have much better things to do than scream abuse at each other in the HoC. Apols, I didn’t mean anything bad by it, I think writing software is pretty cool. Something else being impacted by AI... |
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steve
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Post by steve on May 4, 2023 5:54:40 GMT
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 4, 2023 6:27:29 GMT
FPTP did not stop Wilson winning several times! A 'normal' working majority under a proper Labour government would have been far better than what we ended up with under Blair. Hmm. In 1966 labour and conservative together got 24.5 million votes, turnout 76% and 90% of the total vote. In 2019 they got 24.3 million votes, turnout 67% and 75% of the vote. In between the population rose by about 10 million people, so you might expect the electorate to have risen similarly. From these numbers the registered electorate in 1966 was 27 million and in 2019 36 million, which is about consistent with population rise. Although if you throw in demographic changes with fewer kids and more pensioners, there may be an increase in people missing from the electoral register too.
Anyway, ten million more registered electors, roughly a 1/3 increase but lab and con together actually got slightly fewer votes. The two main parties have represented fewer and fewer of the voters as time has gone by. Back in 1966 they could reasonably have claimed it was a two way fight and the voters chose one of the two. Now that is far from true. Con got 29% of the registered vote to win in 2019, whereas lab got 48% in 1966.
What you can clearly say is that 71% of UK voters did not support the current conservative government. So when discussing the 'overton window', all that matters to con and lab is the views of the 10% or so of the voters who might swap their vote between lab and con. Not the 90% who will not, for whatever reasons.
This isnt really the overton window as originally defined at all. Its just the views of a small block who like lab and con similarly. Not the views of those committed to con, committed to lab, or the third of the population who dislike both.
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 4, 2023 6:36:08 GMT
That graph tells us nothing about where UKIP got their voters from. But an analysis of YouGov's polls immdiately before GE2015 showed that they took 15% of Con2010 voters, 10% of LD2010 and 6% of Lab 2010. That sounds about right, they were stealing votes from the two big parties in the ratio 2:1 con to lab. Which would have guaranteed a labour win had it been allowed to continue. Thus con decided to support a Brexit referendum. However, if you go back another 5 years similar statistics applied and con was beginning anti EU rhetoric for the same reasons, to stop the losses to UKIP. 2006 Farage became leader, 2010 election UKIP got 3% of votes, which could have been the difference for Cameron securing a majority without the libs. |
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on May 4, 2023 6:46:31 GMT
May the 4th be with you - always!
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domjg
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Post by domjg on May 4, 2023 6:51:22 GMT
Indeed. It is heard not from people of working age but from the comfortable retired who were perfectly aware they'd be cushioned from the impacts of their 'lets make Britain what it was like when we were young' game and who, to be blunt, don't give a toss about the impacts on those still working in the economy including I'm afraid often, their own children. If that's aimed at me, which I assume it is because I'm the one who stated that view, I would say that I wasn't perfectly aware that I'd be cushioned from Brexit effects. I did expect some short-term economic turbulence which is happening, but I'm not sure it's attributable to Brexit because of Covid and Putin. And I do care about my children and they're all doing well and they haven't noticed any Brexit-related problems either, It's not all about you! I've heard this attitude multiple times, including people I know personally alas. |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on May 4, 2023 6:57:39 GMT
I haven't actually noticed any difference in anything post-Brexit except that we no longer have to put up with new EU rules, though the government is taking it's time scrapping the ones we already have. Funnily enough I havn't noticed anything whatever related to EU rules, and never did before brexit either. What I have noticed is the Uk car industry giving notice to leave the Uk, problems with the finance industry, the farming industry, travel abroad, labour shortages, illegal immigrants. Food shortages in shops. A government which is presiding over economic disaster after following its flagship policy of Brexit. |
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