steve
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Post by steve on Mar 29, 2023 12:20:38 GMT
mobyThe Tory party sponsored by socialist purists. It was forever so.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Mar 29, 2023 12:20:46 GMT
Danny - there are "barges" and "barges". They range from little more than bare shells used for bulk carrying of coal, to the very luxurious. You may like to search for holidays on exactly such on the canals of France - you'll find them quite expensive. Likewise I remember working in Leningrad around 1990 in the middle of winter and our accomodation was a passenger ship in the harbour. (Finnish owned, I think?) Because it was the most luxurious accomodation in Leningrad at the time. (Even had satellite phones! I also remember phoning the office (at £££'s per minute!!) only to be immediately told "can you hold" and no chance to say how much it was costing! But I digress......) You seem to be implying that "barges and passenger ships" must be an inferior form of accomodation. That is far from necessarily true. Jenrick is making it clear in his statement to parliament that the revised accommodation is supposed to be minimal and unpleasant: "Accommodation for migrants should meet their essential living needs and nothing more, because we cannot risk becoming a magnet for the millions of people who are displaced and seeking better economic prospects" - so I think luxury barges are out. Perhaps they could just add extra rats and cockroaches to ensure that asylum seekers are properly punished for fleeing persecution. |
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Post by graham on Mar 29, 2023 12:22:14 GMT
I can only suggest that you take your own advice re-the big picture. There are quite a few of us who are not attracted by a programme of Bland Blairism coupled with more than a touch of authoritarian Stalinism.
I'll assume you'll put the Greens under the same level of scrutiny as you subject Labour to when making your democratic decisions. Oh I do that - which is why I refrain from supporting them at Local Elections. In my ward they are clearly seeking Tory and LD tactical votes to defeat Labour. I will not be part of that. |
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Post by steamdrivenandy on Mar 29, 2023 12:23:23 GMT
Ah, but times have moved on too. The Tories would ensure people are interested in Corbyn and whilst Labour had great appeal it was never enough to beat the Tories, partly because they demonised Corbyn to get their vote out. It only needs a concentrated campaign to remind their floaters why they were so scared of a Corbyn government and you've got more Tory votes. A Tory attack on Corbyn in 2024 - had it not been stirred up by Starmer - would have got the Tories nowhere. The media would not have focussed on it and the vast majority of people would have ignored it or shrugged their shoulders. Starmer seems utterly obsessed and very insecure.
You seem to have a beneficent view of the UK media. Their masters would have them all over it. |
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Post by graham on Mar 29, 2023 12:26:49 GMT
A Tory attack on Corbyn in 2024 - had it not been stirred up by Starmer - would have got the Tories nowhere. The media would not have focussed on it and the vast majority of people would have ignored it or shrugged their shoulders. Starmer seems utterly obsessed and very insecure.
You seem to have a beneficent view of the UK media. Their masters would have them all over it. The Tory press is less powerful today than was the case in the 1970s when it made Tony Benn a bogeyman. It only had limited success then - and by the 1987 GE few people were interested in Benn. Ditto Corbyn today. |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Mar 29, 2023 12:36:21 GMT
oldnat I think criticism of the Labour leadership competition is a tad disingenuous. Prior to this leadership election the SNP hasn't held a contested election for twenty years, Sturgeon never faced a contested election to become or as leader at all, the previous leader Alex Salmond did but his first time round consisted of a total vote for both Salmond and his competitor of just over 600 votes! |
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Mar 29, 2023 12:44:05 GMT
It seems that gourmets like @mark don't understand the significance of the school lunch menus. Pupils can have unlimited amounts of nutritious soup and bread, vegetables, yoghurt and fruit. These weren't even available when you and I were at school - but he scoffs at such provision. Perhaps that's the difference between genuinely redistributive actions in Scotland, and the faux socialism among the advantaged in southern realms. I can't believe you're even taking offence at a tongue in cheek criticism of a Scottish school menu.. Takes touchy to a whole new level.. |
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Mar 29, 2023 12:51:14 GMT
Just a non-partisan thought on the use of RAF Wethersfield to house migrants - it will be interesting to see how much of an issue it becomes in the local elections in Braintree DC and who, if anyone, will benefit electorally. I call it non-partisan since there are both right-wing (NIMBY) and left-wing (this is a bad policy and the place is unsuitable for this purpose) arguments against it, so there is basically zero local support. The Tory council is opposing it and Cleverly, as a member of the government and the local MP, is caught in a fairly horrible dilemma. I genuinely have no idea whether this will have an impact or not (and if it does, who is helped).
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Post by graham on Mar 29, 2023 12:52:44 GMT
Danny - there are "barges" and "barges". They range from little more than bare shells used for bulk carrying of coal, to the very luxurious. You may like to search for holidays on exactly such on the canals of France - you'll find them quite expensive. Likewise I remember working in Leningrad around 1990 in the middle of winter and our accomodation was a passenger ship in the harbour. (Finnish owned, I think?) Because it was the most luxurious accomodation in Leningrad at the time. (Even had satellite phones! I also remember phoning the office (at £££'s per minute!!) only to be immediately told "can you hold" and no chance to say how much it was costing! But I digress......) You seem to be implying that "barges and passenger ships" must be an inferior form of accomodation. That is far from necessarily true. Jenrick is making it clear in his statement to parliament that the revised accommodation is supposed to be minimal and unpleasant: "Accommodation for migrants should meet their essential living needs and nothing more, because we cannot risk becoming a magnet for the millions of people who are displaced and seeking better economic prospects" - so I think luxury barges are out. Perhaps they could just add extra rats and cockroaches to ensure that asylum seekers are properly punished for fleeing persecution. We can only hope that it does not fall below Dachau standard accommodation. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2023 12:54:00 GMT
lens "Danny - there are "barges" and "barges". Indeed there are those that float and those that only exist in the minds of Tory ministers and deranged daily mail headline writers. But I'm sure if one of their chums offers to provide some that don't actually exist our wonga will immediately head their way. Here's one they could use ... this one definitely exists and it's already been paid for by the taxpayer.
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Mar 29, 2023 13:25:28 GMT
What would your perfect electoral partner offer Lulu? Ah, well it’s possible there aren’t too many politicians that come that close to a cross between Sophie Marceau, Emmanuelle Béart and Ana de Armas. I suppose for me, “more equitable” isn’t really what I would call an ideal, more of a bare minimum (though whether it’s enough as a minimum is decidedly questionable). Regarding reliability, not sure how “reliable” Starmer might be, given the about-turn on assorted pledges, the EU etc. |
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Mar 29, 2023 13:35:15 GMT
I do strongly disagree. Starmer has effectively given the Tories a weapon where none really existed. Voters pay little attention to former leaders - and would have had no more interest in whether Corbyn stands for Labour in Islington North than whether Boris Johnson stands for the Tories in Uxbridge & Ruislip South. By becoming so obsessed with Corbyn , Starmer has created an issue that was not really there! Corbyn is history - and people have moved on. I agree with you. I would make the assumption that JC will be a nuisance in Parliament-no less to his own government-, whatever label he is wearing. I also think that backbench MPs are there as representatives of their voters-not as spokespersons for their Party. As for whether KS makes himself more appealing to swing voters by banning the Old Leftie-can't really see it. 1. He seems to me to be in control of his Party-able to appoint the Cabinet he will want. 2. So -for me-it really is time for Starmer to stop telling me what he isn't and start explaining what he is for. 1. With the notable exception of Rayner who he can't rid of. 2. Given he has total control of LAB now (eg the size of the majority on NEC yesterday) then certainly no excuses for not filling in some of the 'vague' and costing of policies - other than the obvious reason that costing the vague is going to expose either need to jack up taxes or rewrite the rules on 'investment' (preferably the later but BoE are unlikely to oblige with Green QE) WRT to JC as a 'one man' nuisance (+comrades in the SCG faction that Starmer can't get rid of) then I respectfully disagree. Starmer can repeatedly point out that there is no room in LAB for someone like JC - totally defusing any accusations of "same old Labour" that CCHQ pump out in their 'please send us money, please vote for us' emails (I'm on their list!) Consider the Boris situation for Rishi and CON's GE campaign. Should Boris somehow survive with just a slapped wrist then the whole Partygate issue will be a "weapon" that LAB can use into GE'24. The one advantage Rishi might have is that the electorate of Uxbridge and South Ruislip "Get Boris Gone" when the process eventually leads to a by-election. Rishi can help Boris keep the seat as effectively as Corbin campaigned for Remain.  It will be a better look for CON if the 'people' get rid of Boris as Rishi can't get rid of his old boss* but in both cases if JC or Boris were to be candidates for LAB/CON into GE'24 then the other side would weaponise that issue. * Although unlike Starmer then Rishi did leave Boris's cabinet and help bring him down. However, CCHQ can't keep saying Starmer wanted Corbyn as PM if it is Starmer who has finally got rid of Corbyn (well, they might try but it just sets up Starmer to be able to show his LAB is not the "same Old LAB" but NewLABv2) |
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steve
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Post by steve on Mar 29, 2023 13:38:58 GMT
In his response to Cooper, Robert Jenrick said Labour “don’t have the faintest clue how to tackle this issue"
Just so I understand the brilliance of the "new" Tory "plan".
In order to stop the boats , we need more boats ?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2023 13:47:59 GMT
1. With the notable exception of Rayner who he can't rid of. 2. Given he has total control of LAB now (eg the size of the majority on NEC yesterday) then certainly no excuses for not filling in some of the 'vague' and costing of policies - other than the obvious reason that costing the vague is going to expose either need to jack up taxes or rewrite the rules on 'investment' (preferably the later but BoE are unlikely to oblige with Green QE) WRT to JC as a 'one man' nuisance (+comrades in the SCG faction that Starmer can't get rid of) then I respectfully disagree. Starmer can repeatedly point out that there is no room in LAB for someone like JC - totally defusing any accusations of "same old Labour" that CCHQ pump out in their 'please send us money, please vote for us' emails (I'm on their list!) Consider the Boris situation for Rishi and CON's GE campaign. Should Boris somehow survive with just a slapped wrist then the whole Partygate issue will be a "weapon" that LAB can use into GE'24. The one advantage Rishi might have is that the electorate of Uxbridge and South Ruislip "Get Boris Gone" when the process eventually leads to a by-election. Rishi can help Boris keep the seat as effectively as Corbin campaigned for Remain. It will be a better look for CON if the 'people' get rid of Boris as Rishi can't get rid of his old boss* but in both cases if JC or Boris were to be candidates for LAB/CON into GE'24 then the other side would weaponise that issue. * Although unlike Starmer then Rishi did leave Boris's cabinet and help bring him down. However, CCHQ can't keep saying Starmer wanted Corbyn as PM if it is Starmer who has finally got rid of Corbyn (well, they might try but it just sets up Starmer to be able to show his LAB is not the "same Old LAB" but NewLABv2) Yes-I had forgotten about Rayner . |
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Mar 29, 2023 13:56:21 GMT
Hard to get exact numbers but the situation in Tunisia is very worrying and whilst Meloni is Far-Right* she was elected because the immigration issue is getting worse. Lots of other sources are much lower for Tunisia. Whilst Tunisia is the current major concerns then Egypt has 9million refugees. www.egypttoday.com/Article/1/121238/Egypt-received-9-M-refugees-over-past-years-Chief-ofI don't follow the political stability of every country with a sea/land border to Europe and not sure how accurate this site is but FWIW then on a scale of -2.5 weak to +2.5 strong Tunisia:-0.7 Libya: -2.37 Egypt: -1.02 www.theglobaleconomy.com/Egypt/wb_political_stability/They are all being paid by EC-EU to "Stop the Boats" and Egypt have been remarkably (worryingly?) successful in the last year or so but the whole NE.African coastline is a potential launch site and all of the countries along that coastline are fairly unstable post the botched 'Arab Spring'. * 2020s Italy does have similarities to 1920s Italy. |
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Mar 29, 2023 13:56:55 GMT
Yes-I had forgotten about Rayner . Raab hasn't |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Mar 29, 2023 14:02:05 GMT
moby The Tory party sponsored by socialist purists. It was forever so. Kind of see it as a positive that you are sticking with your convictions and supporting the more purist line of re-entry to the EU, rather than Labour’s appealing to the Brexiters-in-the-marginals approach you didn’t seem too keen on, an approach that might be less purist but more politically pragmatic. Unless Starmer has change£ his mind and really does think we should be out the EU of course. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2023 14:06:18 GMT
You seem to have a beneficent view of the UK media. Their masters would have them all over it. The Tory press is less powerful today than was the case in the 1970s when it made Tony Benn a bogeyman. It only had limited success then - and by the 1987 GE few people were interested in Benn. Ditto Corbyn today. The print media isn't where most people go for News. DM etc is an outdated bogey man-aka an excuse. Top 10 news sources used by age % of all adults using each source for news nowadays. ( 2022) All Adults-top 5-BBC1/ITV/FB/BBC News/Sky News (DM/MoS-15%-tenth) Under 24s-top 5 -Instagram/FB/BBC1/Twitter/BBC website ( DM/Mos-outside top 10) Over 65-top 5-BBC1/ITV/BBC News/DM.MoS/Sky from :-https://www.ofcom.org.uk/research-and-data/tv-radio-and-on-demand/news-media/news-consumption |
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Mar 29, 2023 14:13:00 GMT
Hopefully YG will ask a question now that Corbyn has been binned to see the changes, notably LAB x-break
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Mar 29, 2023 14:14:45 GMT
The Tory press is less powerful today than was the case in the 1970s when it made Tony Benn a bogeyman. It only had limited success then - and by the 1987 GE few people were interested in Benn. Ditto Corbyn today. The print media isn't where most people go for News. DM etc is an outdated bogey man-aka an excuse. Top 10 news sources used by age % of all adults using each source for news nowadays. ( 2022) All Adults-top 5-BBC1/ITV/FB/BBC News/Sky News (DM/MoS-15%-tenth) Under 24s-top 5 -Instagram/FB/BBC1/Twitter/BBC website ( DM/Mos-outside top 10) Over 65-top 5-BBC1/ITV/BBC News/DM.MoS/Sky from :-https://www.ofcom.org.uk/research-and-data/tv-radio-and-on-demand/news-media/news-consumption It's still where the older generation often go for news off or online and the BBC takes the print media agenda and runs with it. Populism wouldn't have a chance without the Mail/Express/Telegraph messaging just as Trump etc are reliant on outlets like Fox in the US |
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Post by graham on Mar 29, 2023 14:17:16 GMT
Perhaps we need to see a question asked as to whether voters feel Starmer's attitude towards Corbyn now amounts to persecution.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2023 14:17:16 GMT
Hard to get exact numbers but the situation in Tunisia is very worrying and whilst Meloni is Far-Right* she was elected because the immigration issue is getting worse. Lots of other sources are much lower for Tunisia. Whilst Tunisia is the current major concerns then Egypt has 9million refugees. www.egypttoday.com/Article/1/121238/Egypt-received-9-M-refugees-over-past-years-Chief-ofI don't follow the political stability of every country with a sea/land border to Europe and not sure how accurate this site is but FWIW then on a scale of -2.5 weak to +2.5 strong Tunisia:-0.7 Libya: -2.37 Egypt: -1.02 www.theglobaleconomy.com/Egypt/wb_political_stability/They are all being paid by EC-EU to "Stop the Boats" and Egypt have been remarkably (worryingly?) successful in the last year or so but the whole NE.African coastline is a potential launch site and all of the countries along that coastline are fairly unstable post the botched 'Arab Spring'. * 2020s Italy does have similarities to 1920s Italy. Borrell agrees with her about the risk so its not controversial. Actually you could argue that IMF is "paying" Tunisia to stop the boats because they are witholding a £1.54bn loan because of ethnic violence there........which will further stretch an economy trying to cope with Sub -Saharan influx........which will presumably increase tensions. Agreed -that coastline is a problem. Borrell said Tunisia risks collapse “economically or socially”, ! |
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Mar 29, 2023 14:19:47 GMT
IMO those posters referring to the Corbyn situation as being a non issue are completely ignoring the influence of the Tory press. If Corbyn had been allowed to stand for Lab they will have a field day come the election. Every other headline would be along the lines of Lab is no different to 2019. If you have any involvement with floating voters you will be aware that it was not Johnson who won the election but Corbyn who lost it. Anecdotal I know, but I have two friends (we meet for a natter most weeks) who have both voted Lab, LD and Con in the past and both were adamant in 2019 that they would not vote for Lab because of Corbyn. Both have now said that they are very unlikely to vote Tory in 24 and one has said that he is impressed the way Starmer has changed things around and is now likely to vote Lab. The other is still wavering but I suspect will vote LD. This echoes what I have heard from many people interviewed on TV where they detest Corbyn. Assuming Russia is still creating havoc in Ukraine or beyond, I can see the Mail headlines, "Corbyn's party would not have tried to stop Putin." Whether Corbyn is leader or just a candidate would be immaterial. I do think you’re right that the press were a big factor regarding Corbyn*. At the time of GE2019 I used to post about the number of anti-Corbyn headlines in the Guardian and Indy in particular. They were caught out by Corbyn in 2017 and weren’t going to let it happen again. But they were liable to do this to any leader more of the left because they hated the policies. (Although the Guardian have recently moved more leftwards with supporting some nationalisations, they used to support Austerity). It’s a big problem for the left, the press hostility. Similariy I can believe it that you encountered hostility to Corbyn, I encountered it myself. it was interesting though, if you asked why, they couldn’t say. “I dunno he’s just… it’s just that… I just don’t like him.” Not too surprising, because of course the press found it hard to attack the policies given many were quite centrist and popular. So they just hammered the guy, like they hammered Miliband, his dad and his sandwich. But some may dislike Corbyn and indeed any on the left, because of the policies. Labour politicians, journalists, and voters who made money out of inflated house prices for instance, the lowered CGT etc., and aren’t over-keen to lose those advantages, which is more likely the more leftward things move. Better school access via being able to afford much more expensive catchments, etc. etc.** * whether they’d be a big factor when he’s a backbencher nowhere near government is something else. It won’t be like 2019 at any rate, when Indy and Guardian were so anti-Corbyn. They are likely to be more supportive of Starmer. ** it is possible that Starmer is a bit of a Trojan horse and may do a bit more left wing movement in power than they expect though |
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Post by graham on Mar 29, 2023 14:20:17 GMT
The print media isn't where most people go for News. DM etc is an outdated bogey man-aka an excuse. Top 10 news sources used by age % of all adults using each source for news nowadays. ( 2022) All Adults-top 5-BBC1/ITV/FB/BBC News/Sky News (DM/MoS-15%-tenth) Under 24s-top 5 -Instagram/FB/BBC1/Twitter/BBC website ( DM/Mos-outside top 10) Over 65-top 5-BBC1/ITV/BBC News/DM.MoS/Sky from :-https://www.ofcom.org.uk/research-and-data/tv-radio-and-on-demand/news-media/news-consumption It's still where the older generation often go for news off or online and the BBC takes the print media agenda and runs with it. Populism wouldn't have a chance without the Mail/Express/Telegraph messaging just as Trump etc are reliant on outlets like Fox in the US 'Water under the Bridge' issues do not swing many votes. That is now true of Brexit , the 2003 Iraq War - and Corbyn. |
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steve
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Post by steve on Mar 29, 2023 14:34:10 GMT
Bizarre behaviour by our multi millionaire prime minister seemingly unaware that the U.K. used to be in the European single market. Are brexitanians really that self deluded? youtu.be/ycGW69BlyfI |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2023 14:35:20 GMT
The print media isn't where most people go for News. DM etc is an outdated bogey man-aka an excuse. Top 10 news sources used by age % of all adults using each source for news nowadays. ( 2022) All Adults-top 5-BBC1/ITV/FB/BBC News/Sky News (DM/MoS-15%-tenth) Under 24s-top 5 -Instagram/FB/BBC1/Twitter/BBC website ( DM/Mos-outside top 10) Over 65-top 5-BBC1/ITV/BBC News/DM.MoS/Sky from :-https://www.ofcom.org.uk/research-and-data/tv-radio-and-on-demand/news-media/news-consumption It's still where the older generation often go for news off or online and the BBC takes the print media agenda and runs with it. Populism wouldn't have a chance without the Mail/Express/Telegraph messaging just as Trump etc are reliant on outlets like Fox in the US The Guardian said ( 22/12/22) that Starmer "targets new swing voter ‘middle-aged mortgage man’" "Party sees identifying 50-year-old male home-owners as key to electoral success" OFCOM say that 21% of this age group use newspapers for their news ( 33% with the websit/app) |
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Post by hireton on Mar 29, 2023 14:35:46 GMT
Are you a member of Prof Goodwin's new elite hoovering class? Here is a handy summary of his 7 criteria with some amusing responses including one from our former esteemed host ( who sadly scores badly):
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Mar 29, 2023 14:45:32 GMT
Borrell agrees* with her about the risk so its not controversial. Actually you could argue that IMF is "paying" Tunisia to stop the boats because they are witholding a £1.54bn loan because of ethnic violence there........which will further stretch an economy trying to cope with Sub -Saharan influx........which will presumably increase tensions. Agreed -that coastline is a problem. Borrell said Tunisia risks collapse “economically or socially”, ! Probably more a case of "economically AND socially" if Tunisia does collapse but which one comes first? Does the IMF want to make it a self-fulfilling prophecy, given the fall-out won't impact the US? The withholding of funds is risky. It was EC-EU* who were paying Tunisia and others to "Stop the Boats" but they turned a blind eye to the implications of "success" (ie the issues within the NE.African countries). IMF have their eyes open but after the botched 'Arab Spring' that Clinton-Obama were so keen on then it is very high risk to see if the next devil is better than the one you already know. From 2021 "Europe pays, Tunisia detains": www.africanews.com/2021/06/28/tunisia-cracks-down-on-migrants-after-deal-with-europe// * Take your point. I admit to not following the dance that Borrell is performing by pretending the EC-EU wasn't aware of how Tunisia (and others) have been "Stop(ping) the boats". www.africanews.com/2023/03/21/eu-fears-a-collapse-of-tunisia// |
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neilj
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Post by neilj on Mar 29, 2023 14:52:54 GMT
Tory MPs revolting, not a surprise
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Mar 29, 2023 15:01:04 GMT
It's still where the older generation often go for news off or online and the BBC takes the print media agenda and runs with it. Populism wouldn't have a chance without the Mail/Express/Telegraph messaging just as Trump etc are reliant on outlets like Fox in the US 'Water under the Bridge' issues do not swing many votes. That is now true of Brexit , the 2003 Iraq War - and Corbyn. "That is now true of Brexit" - Not for me! |
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