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Post by barbara on Nov 30, 2022 11:40:48 GMT
"Neil Basu, who is standing down as assistant commissioner at Metropolitan police, has given an interview to Channel 4 News in which he has described Suella Braverman’s language about immigration as “horrific”. Asked about Braverman saying it was her dream to read a story on the front page of the Telegraph saying a flight had left Britain carrying asylum seekers to Rwanda, Basu, the most senior police officer of colour in Britain, said: I find some of the commentary coming out of the Home Office inexplicable … It is unbelievable to hear a succession of very powerful politicians who look like this talking in language that my father would have remembered from the 1968. It’s horrific. I was born in 1968. The ‘Rivers of Blood’ speech happened on the constituency next to where my parents lived and made their life hell Basu also said he was proud to describe himself as “woke” – a word now routinely used by senior Tories as an insult. He explained: Are you alert to issues of racial and social justice? Yes I am. And if that is the definition of woke, I’ll wear it as a bumper sticker every day of the week. And by the way, every serving police officer, let alone a chief constable, better believe that too. We serve all of the public without fear or favour, regardless of who they look like, not just the people we like. " Agree with every word, serving police officers shouldn't be overtly political but that doesn't prevent them from having a moral and ethical compass and conducting themselves accordingly. Yes, on a related topic I heard a reporter on LBC this week saying that the police were getting frustrated that due to the fine line Just Stop Oil have adopted of walking very slowly down London streets being legal, they can no longer arrest them. It's not for the police to be 'frustrated' and to imply that JSO are being devious by staying just within the law, It's their job to police the law without fear or favour. If people are not breaking the law then it's not the police's job to feel anything at all. |
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Post by graham on Nov 30, 2022 11:41:12 GMT
mercian . Your recollection is mistaken the highest vote for a single party post WW2 was 49.7% in 1955 when the Tories won a majority the highest vote for Labour was in 1951 with 48.1% where despite Labour comfortably winning the popular vote the Tories won a majority of seats. The conservatives did achieve 50% + results before WW2 however some coincided with a National Government the result in 1935 of 51.8% was the only time with something resembling universal suffrage that a party won over 50%. Also true in 1931! |
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Post by graham on Nov 30, 2022 11:43:48 GMT
Colin: "Who cares?"TW: "Quite"I think quite a lot of people here do. The reason Colin's views are of interest, to me and I suspect others who don't share his perspective, is the hope that he might provide an insight into the mood and intentions of an apparently rational and analytical RoC contributor. In other words, that he might serve as a bellwether. If Colin is indeed seriously open to voting Labour, and not just 'avin a larf, then that is quite something in the light of previous posts. I don't think anyone had picked up on it in those terms. So a straightforward, clear statement of that would be useful and appreciated. Colin is really the last hope of those hoping for an insight into the way developments are viewed from the right (with apologies to Mercian, whose valued and valuable contributions tend more towards entertainment than insight). He did vote Labour in 1997. Like the rest of the world, I suppose. Apart from Graham, of course 😀 And 56% of GB! |
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Post by barbara on Nov 30, 2022 11:46:24 GMT
Apologies if this has been covered earlier, but I have been a bit dilatory in reading UKPR2 over the last week. Given that Christians are now a minority within the UK population, and the CofE a sect within that number (The latest census suggests) is it time for the disestablishment of the CofE? This piece of news has generated an enormous amount of sh*t from some people. The rabid racists (this board excepted) seem to have read that it's because we've been taken over by muslims, rather than as a result of a huge increase in respondents who have no religion at all. Suits the dog whistlers I suppose though. |
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Post by barbara on Nov 30, 2022 11:48:25 GMT
Just in. The boroughs with the highest numbers receiving asylum seekers are Hillingdon and Hounslow, next to Heathrow. Each has asylum seekers amount to about 1% of their total population. Most of the 3400 people are accommodated in hotels - 2600 in hotels locally and 800 'dispersed', 60 in their own sourced accommodation, the rest I presume in hotels elsewhere. There are 150 unaccompanied asylum-seeking children in one borough. A recent comparison with a provision borough with similar population (I think Cambridge) was 2 children. The sheer volume of children is putting immense pressure on the teams which are doing age assessments, placements, finance and admin tasks, as well as dealing with health needs that are not met in the hotels. This is impacting commissioning, staff wellbeing, service capacity and opening up the possibility of legal failures across the boroughs. On top of this 3400, Home Office are going on Booking.com (I made that up) and has been independently buying odd rooms around the boroughs where there's a bit of capacity (up to 80 in one hotel) One hotel I have heard of has over 800 and another nearly 700 booked by the local authority. How council officers upon the vast majority falls (on top of their day job) deals with the pressure beggars belief. I wonder how that will be received more widely when the public understand what's going on. how unfairly the problem is shared, and the impact will impact on already overstretched social etc services Can anyone explain why illegal immigrants are put up in hotels while homeless British people are left to rot? Yes. it's because we have a Tory government. Simples. |
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Post by robbiealive on Nov 30, 2022 12:17:43 GMT
Colin: "Who cares?"TW: "Quite"I think quite a lot of people here do. The reason Colin's views are of interest, to me and I suspect others who don't share his perspective, is the hope that he might provide an insight into the mood and intentions of an apparently rational and analytical RoC contributor. In other words, that he might serve as a bellwether. If Colin is indeed seriously open to voting Labour, and not just 'avin a larf, then that is quite something in the light of previous posts. I don't think anyone had picked up on it in those terms. So a straightforward, clear statement of that would be useful and appreciated. Colin is really the last hope of those hoping for an insight into the way developments are viewed from the right (with apologies to Mercian, whose valued and valuable contributions tend more towards entertainment than insight). Don't agree sport. There are any number of people on here who endlessly parade their ever-shifting, shilly-shallying, will-i-won't-I, if-Starmer-pledges-to-do-this-or-that-I-may-vote-for-him thoughts on whether they will vote Labour. As I have said before I don't give a flying fornication about these self-important musings: & as ladyvalerie has said, can't they just make their bl--dy minds up & get on with it: & as crossbat11 has said, this site is a discussion not a canvassing site! The other point is that habitual posters on here are completely (oh god ly) untypical of voters in general: hence their musing are as likely to misinform as inform us about trends in the electorate as a whole. What we know about such things is in the polls, if it's anywhere. PS. I know I keep disagreeing with you but I like yr posts. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Nov 30, 2022 12:18:07 GMT
Apologies if this has been covered earlier, but I have been a bit dilatory in reading UKPR2 over the last week. Given that Christians are now a minority within the UK population, and the CofE a sect within that number (The latest census suggests) is it time for the disestablishment of the CofE? This piece of news has generated an enormous amount of sh*t from some people. The rabid racists (this board excepted) seem to have read that it's because we've been taken over by muslims, rather than as a result of a huge increase in respondents who have no religion at all. Suits the dog whistlers I suppose though. It's hardly a surprise and to be honest I thought that avowed Christians had been a minority for ages already. It felt like a news item from about 2005. Even when I was a kid few people it seemed to me were openly describing themselves as Christian which made me even more self conscious about my very religious parents who I was very aware were far from the norm. Alastair Campbell's famous 'we don't do God' line from over 20 years ago for me sums up the traditional British preference for irreligiosity. |
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Mr Poppy
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Post by Mr Poppy on Nov 30, 2022 12:21:18 GMT
He did vote Labour in 1997. Like the rest of the world, I suppose. Apart from Graham, of course 😀 And 56% of GB! and that is just 'registered UK voters' as not everyone votes or is eligible to vote in UK GEs. However, some folks might say that a lot of folks voted LDEM back in '97 as an ABCON vote in a seat that NewLABv1 were likely to win (eg a lot of SW.Eng back then and even parts of Wales!) so NewLABv1 probably got over 50% (just some of it was tactical LDEM voting as the better place ABCON candidate in specific seats) Plenty of reasons why some people don't vote but my n=1 for the whole Blair (NewLABv1) era was combo of: 1/ Maastricht treaty had been signed (with no ref offered) by Major and CON were behaving as 'rats in the sack' (ie a 'push' factor away from being inclined to vote CON) 2/ LAB was run by 'Centrist' folks and not the loony left (a 'push' (away) factor from the past had been removed by Blair+co) 3/ I wasn't that interested in politics at the time and didn't really see a huge difference on stuff I cared about at the time between CON and LAB (no 'pull' factor to either side) 4/ Lived abroad for a chunk of that era (see #3) Note the conditions of #1-2 are very similar to now and for #3 then neither party is looking to 'betray Brexit' and at the margin a few more things I prefer from LAB's offering to CON. My seat is very safe CON and I think my local MP is OK. Not sure I'll vote CON in GE'24 but I'd be 'OK' with a NewLABv2 HMG led by Sir Keir+Rachel with Miliband in the position he has. I appreciate others can and do have a different view - it's a free country PS Perhaps we'd get a more diverse group of people post if they could do so unmolested by a 'Spanish Inquisition' demanding detailed info on who they have ever voted for and why - burned at the stake if the get an answer 'wrong', commit the heinous crimes of 'othering', 'whataboutery', 'typos' or poor grandma (oops typo) in the view of a self-appointed judge+jury of.. On a polling forum then 'Who cares' whether someone believes that someone who didn't vote LAB before (or not for a long time) might now consider LAB as the better, or least bad, option for the next GE. We have polling to see the views of a large, representative sample. As for the voting of individuals on UKPR2a then, "to each their own" |
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Post by caroline on Nov 30, 2022 12:33:19 GMT
Just logged in after a long gap looking after husband. He fell out of bed at 7am this morning trying to reach for something. Last night the carers who put him to bed were in a rush and forgot to put the bed breaks on and he fell between the bed and the wall. I don't know whether he has broken an arm or dislocated his shoulder, I can't move him and he is on the floor distressed and disorientated and in a lot of pain. Phoned for an ambulance 5 hours ago...still waiting. A few years ago hospital care was deteriorating but the emergency services were good. Nothing to do but wait and read all the comments on polling and football!
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Post by somerjohn on Nov 30, 2022 12:38:03 GMT
Robbiealive: "PS. I know I keep disagreeing with you but I like yr posts."
I honestly hadn't noticed you disagreeing. I think that's probably because you do it in an interesting, positive way that contributes to the discussion.
Posts that dispute, or add an alternative perspective, to one's own thoughts are more useful than the 'thoroughly agree' responses (nice, and appreciated, though those are...). I try to post in that spirit.
On the other hand, there are posts that are drearily negative, combative, self-aggrandising and self-pitying. Those do not add anything to the collective wisdom or pleasantness of the site, though they may give an insight into character.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2022 12:41:12 GMT
Mine would include Miliband. And how KS would ACTUALLY handle Public Sector double digit pay rise demands. Who cares?  No one. I'm just rabbiting on in a vacuum like everyone else. |
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Post by thylacine on Nov 30, 2022 12:47:54 GMT
Just logged in after a long gap looking after husband. He fell out of bed at 7am this morning trying to reach for something. Last night the carers who put him to bed were in a rush and forgot to put the bed breaks on and he fell between the bed and the wall. I don't know whether he has broken an arm or dislocated his shoulder, I can't move him and he is on the floor distressed and disorientated and in a lot of pain. Phoned for an ambulance 5 hours ago...still waiting. A few years ago hospital care was deteriorating but the emergency services were good. Nothing to do but wait and read all the comments on polling and football! That's appalling Caroline. Hopefully they'll not be too much longer. Seems to be a total post code lottery with ambulances at the moment. We've had two arrive at once the last time we had a scare with mum. Hope you've got someone else there sharing the wait with you. |
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Post by somerjohn on Nov 30, 2022 12:52:15 GMT
robbiealive Oh, yes. Forgot to respond to your substantive point (the ruminations on their VI of individuals here don't matter; it's all in the polls). Well, yes. But we indulge in lots of general discussion here which isn't directly polling-related. Anecdotes about canvassing; discussions in the pub; what the politicians, papers and pundits are saying. It all provides context and colour. After all, we take seriously the conclusions from the musings of a few people in Ashcroft-style discussion groups: why not view the shifting currents of opinion here with at least some interest? Find a bellwether, and you get an idea where the flock is heading.
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Post by alec on Nov 30, 2022 12:58:06 GMT
caroline - horrible. Just absolutely horrible. Hope the ambulance comes soon and your husband is OK. As I've said before, I just cannot understand why there isn't coast to coast outrage about the shocking state of the emergency NHS response. It's truly awful, and now you're caught in the middle of that. Good luck.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2022 13:23:00 GMT
Who cares? No one. I'm just rabbiting on in a vacuum like everyone else. I’m more looking towards posterity.  |
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Post by robbiealive on Nov 30, 2022 13:23:03 GMT
robbiealive
It is certainly a valid analysis to look at which board members would support Labour in a UK election, and who wouldn't.
It would be equally valid to look at which board members would support Tories in a UK election, and who wouldn't, or support REFUK in a UK election, and who wouldn't, or support the Lib Dems a UK election, and who wouldn't, or support the SNP in a UK election, and who wouldn't, or support the DUP or SF or Alliance in a UK election, and who wouldn't, or any other binary comparison.
The choices available vary across the 4 polities within the UK, so a simple Anglocentric approach would seem to be of little value, even to simple Anglocentrics.
Most on this board can't vote SNP, PC, SF, DUP, Alliance etc - even if they wanted to. Those resident outwith England might make very different choices if they were in that green and pleasant land (I would vote English Green, if a candidate was available).
The level of antipathy to other parties tends to be on a sliding scale. For example, I have never voted SCon and never will. I have been a member of, campaigned and voted for Scottish Liberals and SLab in the past, and might even do so again if their English equivalents offered EU membership and extensive guaranteed powers for the Scottish Parliament.
The fondness for binary options is what has prevented the introduction of PR. It suits the establishment. I don't get yr point. 1. I produced a few stats to mark the 1st anniversary of the site & with ref to crossbat11 asking whether it were true, as the ROCs have it, that it's a Labour-voting echo chamber ",, . [with] an overall left-leaning groupthink that pervades it". 2. To comment on Crossbat's question I chose, faute de mieux, to make a binary comparison between those who vote Labour & those who do not. The stats show a small no. of posters -- the Club21 -- dominate posting (72%) & that these posts are divided equally between Labour voters, on the one hand, and, on the other, Tory & Nat anti-Labour posters as well as 1 Lib-Dem & some non-aligned posters. This provided some evidence for scepticism about the echo chamber.3. Some people liked the post: others designated as non-Labour responded that they weren't anti-Labour, that they were indeed considering voting Labour, etc. I wasn't convinced. 4. I didn't consider the other binary options, & the gamut of voters, because they were irrelevant to my modest task. As often a poster is criticised for not doing what they never intended doing.5. You may consider this Anglo-centric but as nearly all the posters under review live & vote in England, this was inevitable. Besides, 2 of the Club21 are Nats & 1 is Welsh (Labour-supporting). Most posters on here would consider your perspectice Scotland-centric or whatever the word is. 6. It is interesting that posting is dominated by a few and that 5 posters of whom you are one contribute 25% of the posts: 1 Lib, I Nat, 2 Lab, 1 Tory. I have contributed 1% and am resolved to post less. |
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Post by leftieliberal on Nov 30, 2022 13:27:28 GMT
I don't know if others missed this as well, it's polling for one of YouGov's non-regular clients, he's a Professor of Comparative Democratic Institutions at Nuffield College, Oxford:
The overall VI is pretty much in line with YouGov's regular polling at the time, but he has also analysed it broken down by education and housing.
Perhaps someone for those on Twitter regularly to keep an eye on.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2022 13:41:05 GMT
Mine would include 1. Miliband. 2. And how KS would ACTUALLY handle Public Sector double digit pay rise demands. 1. Miliband as PM with his hands on the Magic Money Tree would be a 'NO' from me but in his current role with Rachel in charge of the purse and BoE+markets enforcing fiscal discipline then I think Ed's enthusiasm to roll out a load more British Energy supply will be very good news for UK (and me personally). He has IMO finally found his place. 2. Union power and strikes certainly concern me but by GE'24 then inflation should be a lot lower and CON will have had to deal with the current issue of public sector pay demands. Sir Keir's speech to the CBI was more along the lines of 'automation', ending the 'low wage' model of EU-Centric neoliberalism and expecting/enabling business investment - however, that was very likely aimed at people he needs to win over, not his core backers (like the unions who fund LAB). The risk of even more militant unions is a concern with a LAB HMG but on balance one I'm less worried about with Sir Keir and NewLABv2 team, certainly compared to Comrade Corbyn and his team. Related to 'double digit' pay rises then I would like LAB commit to scrapping the 'triple lock' or at least saying they'd 'review it' (code for not alienating older voters but scrapping it once you get into power). Someone has to end that policy and I doubt it will be CON after May tried and U-turned into GE'17. Miliband has that touch of the Swivel Eyed about him for me. And I remember the EdStone! Not being Corbyn isn't a very high bar. And in a way there would be less strike disruption under him because he would accept all demands. This is an area which worries me with Starmer. I dunno-its a funny old position for Cons really. I know none of our votes mean anything individually, but if just spouting off in this tiny little corner of political cyberspace is the sum total of political expression , there ain't much point to it all. So we do have to think about our vote. Had BJ still been in charge I couldn't have voted for them-and Starmer's Labour wouldn't put me off voting for them in some sort of protest. Sunak is a blessed relief for me-at least I don't feel embarrassed about them all the time. And I dont mind a bit of Managerialism -in fact after BJ I think we need it a lot!. So what to do in '24? . If Sunak shows some policy delivery , and making headway with EU relationships I would want to give him my vote. But if the Parliamentary Party descends into "bastards" type infighting , and Sunak seems not to be in charge, what would the point of a Tory vote be ? Protest time again. Another thought occurs too-it seems very unlikely that Sunak can get the Party VI gap with Labour closed. I don't see what issue(s) would bring it about-give him success on inflation/NIP/small boats, but we are still in recession with lower living standards. And it looks like younger MPs deciding not to stand. So a big defeat leaving the old faces and dinosaurs * as the rump of the Conservative Party at Westminster . Why would I vote for that ?. In fact if the defeat is catastrophic doesn't the party -probably post Sunak's leadership -really need to spend some considerable time thinking about what it is for today? Wouldn't a vote for Labour actually help them get down to that? But if Sunak was not deposed ??.....but won't know that till after the GE. Then again-my constituency is rock solid Tory, so my vote is meaningless. Back to waffling away on here then ?  * I never quite understand why dinosaurs are used as a metaphor for old fashioned and out of date. Their forebears emerged from the greatest mass extinction ever which wiped out 60% ish of biological families & 90% of genera -80% of marine species and 70% on land ( Permian/Triassic), and evolved into 900 genera and 1000 species over 150m years. It took a 10k wide asteroid to finish them off ( Cretaceous/ Tertiary ) .....and even then they escaped in the form of birds. Think I will refer to Tory Ammonites in future.  |
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Post by Mark on Nov 30, 2022 13:48:33 GMT
Basu also said he was proud to describe himself as “woke” – a word now routinely used by senior Tories as an insult. He explained: Are you alert to issues of racial and social justice? Yes I am. And if that is the definition of woke, I’ll wear it as a bumper sticker every day of the week. And by the way, every serving police officer, let alone a chief constable, better believe that too. We serve all of the public without fear or favour, regardless of who they look like, not just the people we like. " Agree with every word, serving police officers shouldn't be overtly political but that doesn't prevent them from having a moral and ethical compass and conducting themselves accordingly. Of course everyone should be alert to those things though definition of what they actually mean might vary. I'm not sure if there is an official definition of 'woke' is, but to me it includes the idea that a bloke can put on a dress and say he's a woman, whereas he's actually a transvestite. The term "woke", long before it's use in today's politics, originated via fighting racism, going back, not only to Martin Luther King, but even further back to blues singer, Leadbelly, who, in the 1930's, said, introducing his antiracism song, "scottsboro Boys", "I advise everybody, be a little careful — best stay woke, keep their eyes open.” In terms of today's parlance, often as an insult by te right, it seems to be the same catch-all as the previous "political correctness" (often followed with "gone mad") |
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Post by somerjohn on Nov 30, 2022 13:55:03 GMT
Caroline: "Phoned for an ambulance 5 hours ago...still waiting."What an appalling situation. I hope you and your husband don't have to wait much longer. It sounds horribly typical of what we hear is going wrong. Rushed carers, delayed ambulance, no information. And now they want more budget cuts. I don't know if you saw this article a few days ago: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/28/us-britain-healthcare-insurance-renewal-nhsIn it, Emma Brockes, who lives in the USA, poses the question: "So there you have it. Broken Britain or this hellscape? It’s a tough call.". Of course, it isn't a binary choice. There could be answers closer to home. In Spain, which has a state-funded system with private hospitals too, the ambulances are privately run and seem to glory in zipping around and responding to calls instantly and with Latin brio. I haven't had to use the system myself, but those who have speak highly of its quality, speed and efficiency. One of the few redeeming features of the GDR, I've read, was its system of polyclinics. Basically, as I understand it, institutions combining hospital, specialist, A&E and GP service. You turned up as if to A&E, were assessed, as if by a GP, then assigned to the appropriate department, and either sorted out and sent home or admitted for treatment. That was the theory, anyway. It cut out all the NHS-style delay in seeing a GP, then waiting for a consultant appointment, then waiting for treatment. The polyclinics were scrapped on reunification, sadly. The idea makes sense to me, and might be worth trying on a pilot basis in the UK. But I don't know much about healthcare, so maybe someone more qualified can comment. |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Nov 30, 2022 13:56:16 GMT
Robbiealive: "PS. I know I keep disagreeing with you but I like yr posts."I honestly hadn't noticed you disagreeing. I think that's probably because you do it in an interesting, positive way that contributes to the discussion. Posts that dispute, or add an alternative perspective, to one's own thoughts are more useful than the 'thoroughly agree' responses (nice, and appreciated, though those are...). I try to post in that spirit. On the other hand, there are posts that are drearily negative, combative, self-aggrandising and self-pitying. Those do not add anything to the collective wisdom or pleasantness of the site, though they may give an insight into character. I'd agree with most of that except that I feel, especially in the current environment, combativeness can be most definitely called for. I sometimes find the attempts of some to always keep discourse calm and unruffled even when dealing with something that needs a robust pushback to be a bit cloying and can appear pusillanimous. We're human beings after all. I really don't agree with the notion that if you lose your temper you've lost the argument. Losing your temper can really help to focus it. And there have been plenty of reasons to lose it over the last few years (with no sign of them decreasing). |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2022 13:56:43 GMT
can't they just make their bl--dy minds up & get on with it: & as crossbat11 has said, this site is a discussion not a canvassing site! Well some can-clearly. So all they have to do on here is keep repeating that the other lot are rubbish-and worse !. Doesn't take much thought does it?. If that is what appeals you must be a happy fellow -here among the Party Warriors and Spear Carriers. But ...sport....some us occasionally have a think about the political choices on offer ; like to ruminate on them in this welcoming corner of objective political discussion and polling reports. Even Labour supporters do it. Try it some time-when you have a moment. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2022 13:59:27 GMT
Just logged in after a long gap looking after husband. He fell out of bed at 7am this morning trying to reach for something. Last night the carers who put him to bed were in a rush and forgot to put the bed breaks on and he fell between the bed and the wall. I don't know whether he has broken an arm or dislocated his shoulder, I can't move him and he is on the floor distressed and disorientated and in a lot of pain. Phoned for an ambulance 5 hours ago...still waiting. A few years ago hospital care was deteriorating but the emergency services were good. Nothing to do but wait and read all the comments on polling and football! So sorry carolineA truly awful position to be in. Frightening. Fingers crossed for you both. |
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Post by thylacine on Nov 30, 2022 14:02:05 GMT
1. Miliband as PM with his hands on the Magic Money Tree would be a 'NO' from me but in his current role with Rachel in charge of the purse and BoE+markets enforcing fiscal discipline then I think Ed's enthusiasm to roll out a load more British Energy supply will be very good news for UK (and me personally). He has IMO finally found his place. 2. Union power and strikes certainly concern me but by GE'24 then inflation should be a lot lower and CON will have had to deal with the current issue of public sector pay demands. Sir Keir's speech to the CBI was more along the lines of 'automation', ending the 'low wage' model of EU-Centric neoliberalism and expecting/enabling business investment - however, that was very likely aimed at people he needs to win over, not his core backers (like the unions who fund LAB). The risk of even more militant unions is a concern with a LAB HMG but on balance one I'm less worried about with Sir Keir and NewLABv2 team, certainly compared to Comrade Corbyn and his team. Related to 'double digit' pay rises then I would like LAB commit to scrapping the 'triple lock' or at least saying they'd 'review it' (code for not alienating older voters but scrapping it once you get into power). Someone has to end that policy and I doubt it will be CON after May tried and U-turned into GE'17. Miliband has that touch of the Swivel Eyed about him for me. And I remember the EdStone! Not being Corbyn isn't a very high bar. And in a way there would be less strike disruption under him because he would accept all demands. This is an area which worries me with Starmer. I dunno-its a funny old position for Cons really. I know none of our votes mean anything individually, but if just spouting off in this tiny little corner of political cyberspace is the sum total of political expression , there ain't much point to it all. So we do have to think about our vote. Had BJ still been in charge I couldn't have voted for them-and Starmer's Labour wouldn't put me off voting for them in some sort of protest. Sunak is a blessed relief for me-at least I don't feel embarrassed about them all the time. And I dont mind a bit of Managerialism -in fact after BJ I think we need it a lot!. So what to do in '24? . If Sunak shows some policy delivery , and making headway with EU relationships I would want to give him my vote. But if the Parliamentary Party descends into "bastards" type infighting , and Sunak seems not to be in charge, what would the point of a Tory vote be ? Protest time again. Another thought occurs too-it seems very unlikely that Sunak can get the Party VI gap with Labour closed. I don't see what issue(s) would bring it about-give him success on inflation/NIP/small boats, but we are still in recession with lower living standards. And it looks like younger MPs deciding not to stand. So a big defeat leaving the old faces and dinosaurs * as the rump of the Conservative Party at Westminster . Why would I vote for that ?. In fact if the defeat is catastrophic doesn't the party -probably post Sunak's leadership -really need to spend some considerable time thinking about what it is for today? Wouldn't a vote for Labour actually help them get down to that? But if Sunak was not deposed ??.....but won't know that till after the GE. Then again-my constituency is rock solid Tory, so my vote is meaningless. Back to waffling away on here then ? * I never quite understand why dinosaurs are used as a metaphor for old fashioned and out of date. Their forebears emerged from the greatest mass extinction ever which wiped out 60% ish of biological families & 90% of genera -80% of marine species and 70% on land ( Permian/Triassic), and evolved into 900 genera and 1000 species over 150m years. It took a 10k wide asteroid to finish them off ( Cretaceous/ Tertiary ) .....and even then they escaped in the form of birds. Think I will refer to Tory Ammonites in future. As I'm sure you are aware Colin ammonites lasted for over 140 million years before going extinct. Also one of their noted attributes was the rapidity of their evolution. Not sure therefore whether Tory Ammonites is anymore apt than dinosaurs. |
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Post by somerjohn on Nov 30, 2022 14:19:31 GMT
Domjg: "especially in the current environment, combativeness can be most definitely called for"
Doesn't that just end in a shouting match? Lots of heat, not much light?
I like to think it's more effective to provide a calm, reasoned, evidenced rebuttal. That seems to rile some people into anger or a sullen refusal to engage (or accusations of trolling!) so I suppose in its own way it must be combative.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2022 14:20:08 GMT
I have a memory - very vague now - of a time when I occasionally enjoyed reading Mr. Nat’s posts. Happy days - they pass so quickly… |
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Mr Poppy
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Teaching assistant and now your elected PM
Posts: 3,774
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Post by Mr Poppy on Nov 30, 2022 14:25:48 GMT
1. Miliband has that touch of the Swivel Eyed about him for me. And I remember the EdStone! ... 2. Think I will refer to Tory Ammonites in future. 1. Blimey you've got a very good memory. I had to google that. In fairness to Miliband he did the unveiling in Hastings which had Covid before it even existed and was probably suffering from the 'brain fog' of Long-Covid in 2015.  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EdStoneAll pretty vacuous stuff on the Edstone of NewLABv1's demise that any 'appeal to the masses' politician might say into a GE (IMO). I note his #4 (Controls on Immigration) was the issue that Abbott didn't like on her mug. I'm not sure Ed was ever that sincere about anything he ever said beyond pushing for more British Energy for British businesses and households. TBC but he's at least now in a fairly narrow but IMO very important role. So I'm prepared to 'forgive and forget' and give him another go (I hear he's mustard the art of eating a bacon sandwich now as well) 2. Old Croc Dinosaurs like C.Chope still walk the halls of Westminster with just a brief interruption post losing his marginal seat in '92 and being moved to a safer seat from '97*. He'll probably keep Christchurch Blue until the day he dies (in office). Extinction can't comet fast enough for some CON MPs but that guy will be one of the last to die off even if CON factions keep chucking meteors at their own life raft (HMS Rishi). I would certainly like to see CON at least being able to be a credible opposition from GE'24 onwards. Maybe if HoL moves to PR then a new ruling can come in for HoC. Max 3x5yr terms and you're moved to the HoL list to vacate your seat for someone new (then max 3x8yr terms in HoL and your put into pasture). Experience is useful, but some MPs have been wandering the halls of Westminster, oblivious to the Real World, for far too long. * As per comments a few days ago then DD might well, like Chope, 'reappear' in a safer seat contest in GE'29, after a 'sabbatical' in Tufton St. or similar. Maybe Chope does the decent thing and makes way for her or someone else whose time roaming the halls of Westminster deserves a 2nd coming. PS Yes, CON aren't a total embarrassment anymore but they still have their moments. Truss was a hard 'NO' for me. Boris.. well, sadly Boris was Boris and during Covid that was not a good thing to be. I expected he'd use #10 for parties and getting drunk but had hoped he'd then leave running the country to Rishi+co (and briefly Dom before he lost his eyesight and started the original 'rats in the sack' within #10). In a parallel universe where Covid never happened then Boris is still PM and CON and LAB are tied in VI. The Truss era error never happened and Rishi (still in #11) could have turned CON's fortunes round before GE'24. Sadly my portal to that parallel universe is down so I'm stuck in this one - thinking a LAB HMG will be 'OK' (and putting my affairs in order before Jan'25). |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Nov 30, 2022 14:49:39 GMT
Domjg: "especially in the current environment, combativeness can be most definitely called for"Doesn't that just end in a shouting match? Lots of heat, not much light? I like to think it's more effective to provide a calm, reasoned, evidenced rebuttal. That seems to rile some people into anger or a sullen refusal to engage (or accusations of trolling!) so I suppose in its own way it must be combative. Absolutely, a lot of the time and especially if you're actually seeking to persuade someone open to persuasion. And as you say with some who may just be seeking a reaction remaining cool as a cucumber is actually the most combative approach! Sometimes though I do think it's important for your opponent to see that the topic under discussion is personal to one, that it is strongly felt otherwise the impression could be given that it's just an argument for it's own sake and they may genuinely not realise that some people feel very strongly about it and why that is. Maybe it's just getting older but I find that my capacity for anger at injustice and iniquity in the wider world increases yearly! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2022 14:53:04 GMT
As I'm sure you are aware Colin ammonites lasted for over 140 million years before going extinct. Also one of their noted attributes was the rapidity of their evolution. Not sure therefore whether Tory Ammonites is anymore apt than dinosaurs. Well spotted ! Yes.....its probably quite difficult to find a really ancient organism which died out from the equivalent of senility. I'm tempted to suggest a favourite group-the Cambrian biota with all that body plan experimentation. There were five "minor "extinctions in the Cambrian, but there are plenty of theories which attribute them to external events-climate, vulcanism etc etc. So will go with the enigmatic Ediacaran biota. I think the current view is that “ecosystem engineers” ; newly evolved biological organisms altering the environment radically and driving the older species to extinction. So will settle for Pre-Cambrian Tories |
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domjg
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Post by domjg on Nov 30, 2022 15:01:57 GMT
Of course everyone should be alert to those things though definition of what they actually mean might vary. I'm not sure if there is an official definition of 'woke' is, but to me it includes the idea that a bloke can put on a dress and say he's a woman, whereas he's actually a transvestite. The term "woke", long before it's use in today's politics, originated via fighting racism, going back, not only to Martin Luther King, but even further back to blues singer, Leadbelly, who, in the 1930's, said, introducing his antiracism song, "scottsboro Boys", "I advise everybody, be a little careful — best stay woke, keep their eyes open.” In terms of today's parlance, often as an insult by te right, it seems to be the same catch-all as the previous "political correctness" (often followed with "gone mad") I think one of the lessons from the whole 'woke' thing is not to use unusual sounding soundbites to refer to a general attitude as they can just immediately be othered and be nailed up as handy targets by the right with little or no context needed to rile up their followers. Just describe it as what is actually is, awareness of and sensitivity to injustice due to racial origin, nationality or sexual orientation. Much harder to argue against. My old Mum will look up from her Telegraph and state that she is really against all this 'woke' stuff but she doesn't really know what that means, it's just a 'feeling' and as a self describing Christian I'd like to hope she wouldn't say she's in favour of injustice based on characteristics people can't change (I hope.. she still reads the Telegraph). |
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