oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Aug 29, 2022 16:43:21 GMT
colin
"I think water is now a strategic resource. So the State should manage it imo."
"The State" means the UK Government.
Having water supply and sewerage in public hands clearly works well in Scotland (though leftieliberal would disagree that anything in Scotland can work well), but what advantage do you see in the ownership of Scottish Water and NI Water being transferred from the devolved governments to the Westminster one?
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Post by JohnC on Aug 29, 2022 16:49:24 GMT
Dead right! Fortunately Scots voters realised that the decades of sending Brits down to Westminster had been a terrible mistake, and only now send a small sample from each of your 3 parties to remind you how unutterably awful they are.
Mind you, since the ones that we and NI do send are generally viewed with disfavour, it's obviously time for you to get shot of these places. And if we did, how long would it be before the Scottish Government came crawling back, expecting England to save them from their financial failings. You don't need a long memory to remember Fred the Shred and RBS who took over a well-run (and larger) bank in Nat West and turned it into a basket-case, or that Bank of Scotland, which had merged with Halifax, was only saved by being taken over (at Gordon Brown's behest) by Lloyds and brought that bank to its knees. What used to be called Standard Life, merged with Aberdeen Asset Management in 2017, now calls itself abrdn (yes, all lower-case) and is just about to drop out of the FTSE100 following a catastrophic fall in its share price. Scotland used to be a by-word for financial acumen a couple of generations ago, but no longer. For the sake of accuracy, abrdn disposed of its Standard Life arm last year and it has reverted to being solely an asset management business. The fall in its share price since seems to be related, at least in part, to Lloyds Bank's decision to move assets previously managed by adrdn elsewhere. (I have a relative who works for adrdn and, yes, they think the change of name is stupid as well).
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Post by alec on Aug 29, 2022 16:53:22 GMT
colin - " European natural gas prices plunged the most since April after Germany said its gas stores are filling up faster than planned ahead of winter...." I've been saying this for weeks now. The rate at which EU gas storage assets has been filling up has been largely unchanged since March, aided by some aggressive energy efficiency campaigns across the water. The EU already has enough gas in storage to meet most of their likely winter demand, even if there are no further deliveries. (Note here I am saying 'winter' in the strict meteorological sense. They have about 90 days of supply in store, I think.) The price they are paying is obviously high, but it's the UK that has the most to worry about, in my view, as we have next to no storage and a tight energy supply margin at the best of times, along with a failed private energy sector.
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Post by alec on Aug 29, 2022 17:07:55 GMT
My recipe for government action, to be taken immediately:
1) Direct a special tariff for pre-payment meters at a lower than market rate, funded by a windfall tax on energy producer profits. 2) Legislate to cap domestic supplied energy prices (inc gas and oil for the domestic market) and ensure supplies are directed to the UK as appropriate. 3) Increase benefit payments by an amount calculated with reference to energy costs after the above work through the system 4) Zero rate all energy efficiency products and domestic renewables. 5) Provide immediate funding for a prolonged efficiency upgrades for domestic properties. 6) Provide business loans (as per covid bounce back loans but with much better anti-fraud controls) that must only be used for measures that improve business energy efficiency. 7) Launch a wide and deep, comprehensive energy efficiency campaign. This would include measures like in France, where shops are fined for leaving doors permanently open. Legislate where appropriate so un-required night time lighting becomes an offence. 8) Then, once we've done all that, see what the energy prices look like and then consider further help for middle earners and businesses.
We are in effect at war here, and we need a war time mentality. What we really don't need is a bunch of schoolchildren in charge who are reading from an extremist ideological Ladybird 'How Does Neoliberalism Work' handbook that imagines market forces can solve everything.
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Post by alec on Aug 29, 2022 17:11:32 GMT
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jib
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Post by jib on Aug 29, 2022 17:22:36 GMT
colin One of the major advantages of having privatised water companies is that massive infrastructure improvements like the Thames Tideway are financed by the private sector, and do not add to the UK public debt. Despite the gloom and doom about water quality, the majority of official bathing waters have never been cleaner, with massive investment programmes and things like improved treatment and ultra violet light to kill nasties. The "Wild swimming" debate is about the shocking condition of rivers, which are unfortunately full of slurry from intensive agriculture and shit from the local sewer network whenever it rains and have never been prioritised for investment for bathing quality like official bathing waters (which are almost exclusively in the marine environment). Not convinced . I think water is now a strategic resource. So the State should manage it imo. If you lived where I do you wouldn't think that water quality was being over played. I was talking to Lifeguards the other day at Bexhill. A long stretch of the East Sussex coast has been despoiled in recent weeks-turds floating in the sea. Actions have consequences eh? Let's all say thanks to George Osborne and his mate Danny Alexander. www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/water-pollution-sewage-environment-agency-funding-b2154848.html
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Post by robbiealive on Aug 29, 2022 17:29:37 GMT
Beware Tories Bearing Proposals for Nationalisation.
The Tories privatised water & Blair completed the job. Now it's a mess. Are the Tories going to nationalise it. No way. So should Labour clear up the Tory sewage; should they include it in their 2024 manifesto. Commit Labour, as I think Corbyn did in 2019, to an immensely complicated & expensive programme; buy out a mish-mash of quoted & private companies, most of them allowed to fall into foreign hands, with all the legal entanglments that foreign ownership and long-term contracts involve; some companies carrying v large debts; assume responsibility for pensions; open themselves up to the Tory canard that Labour are the party of the big state.
Really? As a long-term Labour project, fine. In the economic climate prevailing in the next two years: I think not. Labour's focus has to be on energy costs. the NHS, schools, etc. To get embroiled or mired in this business would be a grave error.
PS. I see Truss has bottled it again. Ducked interview agreed with N Robinson that Sunak carried through. She's beginning to resemble Johnson in her fear of democratic scrutiny.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 29, 2022 17:41:42 GMT
Truss really has learnt from the master. When in doubt dodge all scrutiny:
"Liz Truss accused of ‘running scared’ after pulling out of BBC interview. Truss now likely to become prime minister without undergoing a single set-piece grilling on TV or radio"
Chance on any leader debates at next GE is very low I would say. Why bother when you friends control most of the media.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2022 17:45:05 GMT
colin
"I think water is now a strategic resource. So the State should manage it imo."
"The State" means the UK Government.
Having water supply and sewerage in public hands clearly works well in Scotland (though leftieliberal would disagree that anything in Scotland can work well), but what advantage do you see in the ownership of Scottish Water and NI Water being transferred from the devolved governments to the Westminster one? Which - obviously - is definitely what Colin meant.
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graham
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Post by graham on Aug 29, 2022 17:53:42 GMT
Truss really has learnt from the master. When in doubt dodge all scrutiny: "Liz Truss accused of ‘running scared’ after pulling out of BBC interview. Truss now likely to become prime minister without undergoing a single set-piece grilling on TV or radio" Chance on any leader debates at next GE is very low I would say. Why bother when you friends control most of the media. I am not bothered by not having GE leader debates - they have never been very productive other than for Clegg in 2010. Leaders do ,however, need to be scrutinised in depth in the way that Wilson, Heath , Callaghan & Thatcher were by Robin Day and other interviewers during election campaigns.
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pjw1961
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 29, 2022 18:02:40 GMT
Truss really has learnt from the master. When in doubt dodge all scrutiny: "Liz Truss accused of ‘running scared’ after pulling out of BBC interview. Truss now likely to become prime minister without undergoing a single set-piece grilling on TV or radio" Chance on any leader debates at next GE is very low I would say. Why bother when you friends control most of the media. I am not bothered by not having GE leader debates - they have never been very productive other than for Clegg in 2010. Leaders do ,however, need to be scrutinised in depth in the way that Wilson, Heath , Callaghan & Thatcher were by Robin Day and other interviewers during election campaigns. I don't like leader debate much either, except in this case I think Truss would be badly shown up. However, what Johnson was allowed to get away with in 2019 was outrageous, especially dodging the Andrew Neil interview.
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Aug 29, 2022 18:20:10 GMT
colin
"I think water is now a strategic resource. So the State should manage it imo."
"The State" means the UK Government.
Having water supply and sewerage in public hands clearly works well in Scotland (though leftieliberal would disagree that anything in Scotland can work well), but what advantage do you see in the ownership of Scottish Water and NI Water being transferred from the devolved governments to the Westminster one? Which - obviously - is definitely what Colin meant. He may have meant something different - but just didn't express it very well.
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 29, 2022 18:20:17 GMT
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Post by davwel on Aug 29, 2022 18:22:13 GMT
An over-the-top message from Leftie Lib:
""And if we did, how long would it be before the Scottish Government came crawling back, expecting England to save them from their financial failings. You don't need a long memory to remember Fred the Shred and RBS who took over a well-run (and larger) bank in Nat West and turned it into a basket-case, or that Bank of Scotland, which had merged with Halifax, was only saved by being taken over (at Gordon Brown's behest) by Lloyds and brought that bank to its knees. What used to be called Standard Life, merged with Aberdeen Asset Management in 2017, now calls itself abrdn (yes, all lower-case) and is just about to drop out of the FTSE100 following a catastrophic fall in its share price. Scotland used to be a by-word for financial acumen a couple of generations ago, but no longer.
I can agree on the poor management of banks and busses. But not of many other sectors of Scottish life.
Son reports engineering classes at Edinburgh University having a new strong intake. Instead of EU students, they have Chinese and Indians, some of them having turned up today to keep him busy. Royalty has chosen St Andrews again. Installations of renewables are proceeding rapidly, some with new technologies. Ways have been found to have launch sites for space rockets without ruining biodiversity and the landscape. Tidal technology is progressing; many electric and hydrogen buses are working in Aberdeen.
Edinburgh has been packed with tourists, but also had a successful event week for UK organists last month with plenty of local talent in action. Despite bird flu hitting the Bass rock, many visitors find their way to North Berwick keeping the ice-cream parlours over-stretched: grand-daughter working temporarily in one has done a 10-hour shift today and conversed in French, Korean and Spanish with customers.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2022 18:30:47 GMT
Logically, domestic renewable energy and UK oil and gas production has not experienced excessive input cost inflation, (some cost pressures, but not huge) yet they are selling their output at the massively inflated unit costs set by global commodity markets. I can't see any reason why a sovereign government doesn't legislate to cap wholesale energy prices for UK produced energy to benchmark levels based on 2021 prices plus a modest inflation uplift How would that would work though alec . A company extracts oil from North Sea and will try to sell that for best price, which is the international price. If UK said we will only pay X fraction of international price, company would sell to international market and no oil to UK.Then UK would have to impose some further constraint that compels the oil to be sold to UK. Export limits or something. Company may chose to simply not operate the North Sea extraction if they cannot sell at market rate unless the market rate is low. It would certainly be more complex than the idea initially seems, however attractive the idea may be on the face of it? I think you've just made the case for public ownership.
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Post by bedknobsandboomstick on Aug 29, 2022 18:56:41 GMT
How would that would work though alec . A company extracts oil from North Sea and will try to sell that for best price, which is the international price. If UK said we will only pay X fraction of international price, company would sell to international market and no oil to UK.Then UK would have to impose some further constraint that compels the oil to be sold to UK. Export limits or something. Company may chose to simply not operate the North Sea extraction if they cannot sell at market rate unless the market rate is low. It would certainly be more complex than the idea initially seems, however attractive the idea may be on the face of it? I think you've just made the case for public ownership. Or impose some sort of charge for the export or extraction, payable to the government. We could call it a 'tax' or some such word.
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Post by alec on Aug 29, 2022 19:00:15 GMT
Early days still, but it is starting to look like the activity in the Ukraine war is quite substantial. Russian sources are now saying that Ukraine has broken through Russian defences in Kherson and that Russian forces between the Dnipro and Ingulets rivers are being "surrounded and routed".
If this is indeed true, and Ukraine has made swift gains (apparently) within 24 hours of launching the full ground offensive, then it will rightly be seen as a disaster for the Kremlin, given the grindingly slow progress they made in their vaunted (and now largely failed) assault in the Donbas.
It's worth pointing out that some Ukrainian commentators are suggesting that this remains a tactical advance after a small advance hit a weak spot in Russian defences, but the Russian bloggers don't seem to be seeing it that way. It remains possible that we might well be witnesses the collapse of Russia as a serious international military player. Internally, I suspect that this could get very messy in Moscow, and instability in a country with such resources and nuclear arms is going to be a real headache.
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 29, 2022 20:01:39 GMT
I think you've just made the case for public ownership. Or impose some sort of charge for the export or extraction, payable to the government. We could call it a 'tax' or some such word. But that’s the problem. As capital accrues more power it co-opts the political process, to stymie things like tax rises and more regulation. They spend loads on lobbying, make political donations, give positions on the board to politicians, threaten to cut investment or take business elsewhere if taxes are put up, hire the more experienced regulators making gamekeepers-turn-poachers, exert pressure to dilute regulations, or game them by making things impenetrable etc., buy out rivals and get so big that they get bailed out because too-big-to-fail… Look what happened with the banks. Sidelined regulation via toxic debt, concealing what they were up to, so much that they fooled other banks, and we were forced to bail them out. It’s not much use blaming the state for the sins of capital when capital increasingly hampers the state. Similar problem with trade arrangements, where the deals place limits on state action, then the state gets blamed for not acting to limit the effects of right wing economic policy.
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Post by davem on Aug 29, 2022 20:05:44 GMT
I hear that she is too busy, I think she is shopping for a new walk in fridge.
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 29, 2022 20:07:49 GMT
Beware Tories Bearing Proposals for Nationalisation. The Tories privatised water & Blair completed the job. Now it's a mess. Are the Tories going to nationalise it. No way. So should Labour clear up the Tory sewage; should they include it in their 2024 manifesto. Commit Labour, as I think Corbyn did in 2019, to an immensely complicated & expensive programme; buy out a mish-mash of quoted & private companies, most of them allowed to fall into foreign hands, with all the legal entanglments that foreign ownership and long-term contracts involve; some companies carrying v large debts; assume responsibility for pensions; open themselves up to the Tory canard that Labour are the party of the big state. Really? As a long-term Labour project, fine. In the economic climate prevailing in the next two years: I think not. Labour's focus has to be on energy costs. the NHS, schools, etc. To get embroiled or mired in this business would be a grave error. PS. I see Truss has bottled it again. Ducked interview agreed with N Robinson that Sunak carried through. She's beginning to resemble Johnson in her fear of democratic scrutiny. It’s not such a Herculean task to turn a failed energy provider into a state player in the market. It’s not unusual to temporarily nationalise something. We could just make it permanent. Water might be a bit trickier.
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 29, 2022 20:12:18 GMT
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 29, 2022 20:24:07 GMT
Even the Guardian did an editorial supporting Water nationalisation the other day. The Guardian view on water companies: nationalise a flawed private systemEditorial … ‘The government has signalled that post-Brexit regulations are likely to be less, not more, onerous. Voters have every right to feel let down. There is a very good argument that privatised companies have been overcharging customers of natural monopolies by duping the regulator and paying off shareholders by loading up with debt. Such outrageous behaviour has been compounded, it appears, by a collective failure to make the investment that society needs.
Britain’s private utility model is broken. Services can clearly be managed by the state in a way that makes sense. The railways have proved ill-suited to conventional capitalism. The government has already announced plans to nationalise key parts of the electricity grid to help meet climate goals. The Treasury has been forced to pick up the tab as gas suppliers collapsed. Global heating means that water shortages and leaks are set to worsen. To stop companies being able to game the system and dodge their responsibilities will require a measure of state ownership.”
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/aug/10/the-guardian-view-on-water-companies-nationalise-a-flawed-private-system
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2022 20:30:05 GMT
The floods in Pakistan sound absolutely horrendous.
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Aug 29, 2022 20:47:35 GMT
Sounds simple, but I suspect that at the first sniff of such a plan being implemented, that the English water companies would simply incur more debt, pay enhanced dividends to shareholders, declare the company bankrupt, sack their staff and walk away.
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Post by isa on Aug 29, 2022 20:49:52 GMT
I am not bothered by not having GE leader debates - they have never been very productive other than for Clegg in 2010. Leaders do ,however, need to be scrutinised in depth in the way that Wilson, Heath , Callaghan & Thatcher were by Robin Day and other interviewers during election campaigns. I don't like leader debate much either, except in this case I think Truss would be badly shown up. However, what Johnson was allowed to get away with in 2019 was outrageous, especially dodging the Andrew Neil interview. I think she would have been too, even if Nick Robinson is hardly in the same league as Andrew Neil when it comes to skewering interviewees who are not on the top of their game. He would have had Johnson for breakfast given the chance, I think.
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jib
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Post by jib on Aug 29, 2022 21:23:33 GMT
Sounds simple, but I suspect that at the first sniff of such a plan being implemented, that the English water companies would simply incur more debt, pay enhanced dividends to shareholders, declare the company bankrupt, sack their staff and walk away. In Wales, the Welsh Water set up is not for profit - from their website; "Welsh Water is a 'not-for-profit company' which has been owned by Glas Cymru since 2001. Welsh Water does not have shareholders, and any financial surpluses are reinvested in the business for the benefit of customers."
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oldnat
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Post by oldnat on Aug 29, 2022 21:31:28 GMT
Sounds simple, but I suspect that at the first sniff of such a plan being implemented, that the English water companies would simply incur more debt, pay enhanced dividends to shareholders, declare the company bankrupt, sack their staff and walk away. In Wales, the Welsh Water set up is not for profit - from their website; "Welsh Water is a 'not-for-profit company' which has been owned by Glas Cymru since 2001. Welsh Water does not have shareholders, and any financial surpluses are reinvested in the business for the benefit of customers." Yes. That's why I specifically said "English water companies".
As a matter of interest, how was Wales able to have a sensible arrangement when it was governed by an E&W law? Was the franchise awarded by the Senedd instead of whoever awarded the English ones?
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 29, 2022 21:38:38 GMT
In these dismal times, a little English eccentricity can always be relied upon to provide harmless distraction and levity to lift the spirits. The annual River Football match has just taken place in, where else, Bourton on the Water. A hundred year old event and tradition, it is competed by the 1st and 2nd XIs from Bourton Rovers FC. It is played in the shallow waters of the river Windrush. This year's match, of 30 minutes duration, ended 3-3 and contained drama aplenty. A sending off (two bookable offences), a disallowed goal after consultation with a riverside VAR monitor, a saved penalty and a controversial last gasp equaliser. The referee was distracted apparently. There was also a late goalmouth scramble that led to the collapse of the goalposts! And 2,000 people turned up to watch it too. I take great comfort in knowing that these ridiculous but glorious events take place. I wish I'd been there. Aquatic football madness in the Cotswolds is where I may want to be when my time is up and I'm given thirty more minutes before I breathe my last. www.theguardian.com/football/2022/aug/29/footballers-make-a-splash-in-annual-cotswolds-river-match-bourton-on-water
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jib
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Post by jib on Aug 29, 2022 21:40:50 GMT
In Wales, the Welsh Water set up is not for profit - from their website; "Welsh Water is a 'not-for-profit company' which has been owned by Glas Cymru since 2001. Welsh Water does not have shareholders, and any financial surpluses are reinvested in the business for the benefit of customers." Yes. That's why I specifically said "English water companies".
As a matter of interest, how was Wales able to have a sensible arrangement when it was governed by an E&W law? Was the franchise awarded by the Senedd instead of whoever awarded the English ones?But of background here, I think the Tory privatised model crashed and burned badly in Wales. corporate.dwrcymru.com/en/news-media/2021/welsh-water-marks-20-years-as-not-for-profit
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Post by mercian on Aug 29, 2022 21:49:36 GMT
Another is that a UK government can no longer blame the EU for unpopular policies the government promotes, supports and implements. That's probably the reason so many of the government of the time, and the only opposition party that could become a government were in favour of Remain.
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