oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
Posts: 6,089
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Post by oldnat on Aug 22, 2022 15:27:01 GMT
hireton It's also entirely possible, If no longer a certainty, that Spain would object to a secessionist Scotland joining the European union. That's true - though any EU member state could object, if it didn't suit their interests or as part of some negotiating ploy. Spain, however, has stated its official view that their objection to recognising a new state [1] depends on how independence occurs.
If the existing state agrees to the "divorce" (eg Czechs and Slovaks separating), they will recognise the new state, but without such agreement (eg Kosovan independence from Serbia) they won't.
It's a wider principle than "objecting to Scottish independence and EU membership".
Other states may have similar views, which is why SNP and SGP have said that the route to indy requires agreement from Westminster. That, of course, gives a huge negotiating advantage to a UKGov that is willing to discuss indy, and one that a sensible (probably Labour led) government may be minded to consider at some point, if they decide that it would suit them.
[1] Clearly they could not agree to a state that they didn't recognise, becoming a member of the EU.
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Post by wb61 on Aug 22, 2022 15:31:43 GMT
As the penchant for adding black and white photos as avatars seems to be catching on, and feeling the need to be part of a crowd I changed mine. So few people in politics that one can actually admire since colour photography became common! I had one of Mr Campbell for a while but I agree he's a marmite figure. Maybe we should all take a leaf out of Crofty's book and (unlike Crofty) scare the bejesus out of each other with our actual visages? On second thoughts not a good idea.. Certainly not a good idea in my case: at best I think I would post a photo of my best feature, which according to some is the back of my head retreating in the distance.
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Post by somerjohn on Aug 22, 2022 15:35:30 GMT
Graham: 'Moreover the party appeared well to the left under Charles Kennedy - indeed I supported them in 2001 and 2005 - yet but a few years later we saw them shift sharply to the Right under Clegg and the Orange Bookers."
"Moreover the party appeared well to the left under Jeremy Corbyn- indeed I supported them in 2017 and 2019 - yet but a few years later we saw them shift sharply to the Right under Starmer and the Neo Blairites."
As you see, we can all play that vacuous game.
All parties change their policies, even U-turning at times (Labour anti-, then pro-, then ambivalent about EU. Variously pro- and anti-NATO; pro-nationalisation then pro-PFI and privatisation. One could go on at some length...)
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Post by lululemonmustdobetter on Aug 22, 2022 15:42:02 GMT
Hi graham I would not vote LD if other candidates - Labour & Green -were available. It is actually barely 7 years since they were in coalition with the Tories. Moreover the party appeared well to the left under Charles Kennedy - indeed I supported them in 2001 and 2005 - yet but a few years later we saw them shift sharply to the Right under Clegg and the Orange Bookers.I'm in the same camp as you on this one, and am inherently much more pro-Labour than anti-Tory. I have many friends who did vote tactically in 2010 - and then came to regret it, and the legitimacy their votes gave to the Coalition Gvt. People are entitled to vote however which way they please, and for their own reasons. That's what all this democracy malarkey is about after all. If someone wants to vote purely on the basis of trying to keep the Tories out - that's perfectly legitimate as is not voting for a party due to what they have done in the past.
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,397
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 22, 2022 15:47:31 GMT
pjw1961 That Shaftesbury result is interesting. I know it was almost 200 years ago now, with a much more smaller population back then and women still disenfranchised, but that's a very small electorate size, isn't it? 400 odd voters? A rotten borough perhaps, or are you sneaking in those local government by-election results you seem to relish again? You'll wish you hadn't asked . It was not a rotten borough as such, as it is after the 1832 Reform Act (which is why my records begin in 1832) but the sizes of constituencies still varied widely. To give a couple of examples from your neck of the woods - Birmingham had 5,870 electors in the 1841 election and returned 2 MPs (both Liberals) and Worcestershire Eastern County constituency had 6,367 electors and also returned 2 MPs (both Conservative). Birmingham was granted a 3rd seat in 1868 by which point its electorate was 42,042, while Shaftesbury's 1 MP in 1868 represented 1,311 electors. You may recall that one of the demands of the Chartists was for equal sized constituencies.
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 22, 2022 15:49:00 GMT
domjg
Ah yes, old CBX1985 was a bit of a case. He got rumbled on the old board and was unmasked as a faux Remainer. He used to claim to have voted remain in the 2016 Referendum and to have subsequently become resigned, stoically and reluctantly, to Brexit. Accordingly he urged us all "to get over it", like he had, and to concentrate instead on making Brexit work. Unfortunately for old CBX, some diligent poster identified someone, using exactly the same moniker, as being an ardent Brexiteer on another forum during the referendum campaign. It seemed like he was trying to have his cake and eat it with us naïve and credulous dupes. After the unmasking and shaming we heard no more from him.
I rather miss him and he certainly used to take me in with his tales from the campaign doorstep in deeply pro-Labour parts of Wales. He regaled us with stories of him taking the Tory message into hostile territory, detecting a slow turning of the tide for his beloved Blues. Go left on economics, he used to say, and right on culture and the future will be blue. He saw no future for Labour, just doom and more doom.
Sadly, it turned out that he was pulling our plonkers all along.
I wonder if he's on Truss's campaign team?
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Post by mercian on Aug 22, 2022 16:00:52 GMT
“ I keep a spreadsheet of UK GEs and amongst other things I track average votes per seat.” Sad…. Well each to his own. You like plinky-plonky on your guitar and I like numbers.
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Post by robbiealive on Aug 22, 2022 16:02:26 GMT
pjw1961 That Shaftesbury result is interesting. I know it was almost 200 years ago now, with a much more smaller population back then and women still disenfranchised, but that's a very small electorate size, isn't it? 400 odd voters? A rotten borough perhaps, or are you sneaking in those local government by-election results you seem to relish again? Rotten boroughs had tiny electorates & were said to have been abolished in the 1832 Great Reform Act. Wiki says Shaftesbury, a Parliamentary Borough, had prior to 1832 a very liberal franchise as nearly all households were qualified as they paid Scot & Lot, that is municipal taxation. The franchise before 1832 was not a uniform one but varied from constituency to constituency. There were even some few constitutencies in which women could vote. These rights were abolished when 1832 stated male voters only. The 1832 Act introduced a much more uniform franchise which, Wiki again, proved more restrictive than the old one in Shaftesbury. For a small urban borough 400 is not a small post-1832 electorate. The only "open" constituencies with large electorates were urban seats with v large populations, in say London or Bristol, or the county seats. These & the latter esp were considered the element of consent in the system. Their MPs did not normally seek government office but generally could be relied on to vote with the government. As representatives of largish populations, & important & different economic interests, their withdrawwal of support from the government was regarded as a serious matter. I've no time for Sunak but thought like most on here, right & left, that he would win. Did you not once say yourself on here that the Tories would be bonkers not to pick Sunak from the candidates that remained.
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Post by shevii on Aug 22, 2022 16:12:15 GMT
Redfield & Wilton Strategies @redfieldwilton · 11m Labour leads by 12%, largest lead since Boris Johnson's resignation.
Westminster Voting Intention (21 August):
Labour 43% (+2) Conservative 31% (-3) Liberal Democrat 13% (+1) Green 5% (–) SNP 5% (+1) Reform UK 3% (–) Other 2% (-1)
Changes +/- 14 August
At this moment, which of the following individuals do voters think would be the better PM for the United Kingdom? (21 August)
Starmer 36% (-1) Truss 35% (-6) Don't Know 29% (+7)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2022 16:15:18 GMT
“ I keep a spreadsheet of UK GEs and amongst other things I track average votes per seat.” Sad…. Well each to his own. You like plinky-plonky on your guitar and I like numbers. I’ve never done plinky-plonky on my guitar or anyone else’s.
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 22, 2022 16:30:52 GMT
robbiealive
Thanks for the information on 19th constituency sizes. Both you and pjw1961 clearly know your stuff on this whereas I, self-evidently, don't!
I did indeed say that once Javid and Hunt had been eliminated from the Tory leadership race, Sunak was the most plausible candidate left in the field. The others seemed a mixture of oddballs and political ingenues to me. I still remain bemused that the Tory MPs saw fit to divest the contest early on of the only two genuine heavyweights in Javid and Hunt. Plain crackers, but maybe an indication of the nature of the parliamentary Tory Party these days.
It could be I'm wrong in my judgement and that Truss will prove to be a good PM and a politically successful Tory leader for many years to come. Maybe the Tory members and MPs know something we don't, but I'm thinking that we've got to believe a lot of impossible things before breakfast to envisage a Truss premiership being anything other than calamitous.
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Aug 22, 2022 16:33:44 GMT
More results from the Panelbase poll in Scotland including some commentary from Sir John Curtice: Headline finding is: "A new Panelbase survery has found that Scotland is even more opposed to Brexit than in 2016, when 62 per cent voted against. Now 72 per cent say they would vote Remain, while 69 per cent, would vote to rejoin the EU — up from 61 per cent in January." Panelbase have not yet published the tables for the EU question, but the ones for indy are up.
drg.global/wp-content/uploads/ST-Tables-for-publication-220822.pdf
The crossbreaks by Westminster 2019 vote, Country of birth and EU referendum are mildly interesting, but don't really tell us anything that we didn't know already - that the groups with most fluidity on the issue voted SLab (or to a lesser extent SNP) in 2019 and were pro EU membership in 2016.
The variations between the "base" positions 0f 1 July & 19 Aug on indy are tiny (+/- 1%) so meaningless.
On the speculative questions as to changes from base position depending on the Tory leader, Sunak as PM would have only a small effect on any party group, among those born in Scotland, or 2016 Leavers. While numbers are small (94 born in England, 74 born elsewhere) both groups do show a shift to Yes along with Remainers (they may be largely the same people!).
The prospect of Truss as PM produces a larger shift to Yes among all except Tory voters and Leavers (again many will fall into both groups).
What would have been useful in understanding movement in Scottish politics would have been if the ST had asked voters to imagine that Starmer was PM.
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Post by isa on Aug 22, 2022 16:37:30 GMT
Redfield & Wilton Strategies @redfieldwilton · 11m Labour leads by 12%, largest lead since Boris Johnson's resignation. Westminster Voting Intention (21 August): Labour 43% (+2) Conservative 31% (-3) Liberal Democrat 13% (+1) Green 5% (–) SNP 5% (+1) Reform UK 3% (–) Other 2% (-1) Changes +/- 14 August At this moment, which of the following individuals do voters think would be the better PM for the United Kingdom? (21 August) Starmer 36% (-1) Truss 35% (-6) Don't Know 29% (+7) Still possibly MOE, but if memory serves, that's two, possibly three, recent polls where there has been a noticeable uptick for LAB and corresponding downturn for CON, in a short period of time, and following the LAB energy assistance announcement.
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oldnat
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Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Aug 22, 2022 16:42:05 GMT
There were 3 Representation of the People Acts passed in 1832, as the 3 polities in the UK Union - England & Wales, Ireland and Scotland - all had different franchises and constituency arrangements from each other, both before and after the reforms.
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 22, 2022 16:50:09 GMT
As the penchant for adding black and white photos as avatars seems to be catching on, and feeling the need to be part of a crowd I changed mine. So few people in politics that one can actually admire since colour photography became common! I had one of Mr Campbell for a while but I agree he's a marmite figure. Maybe we should all take a leaf out of Crofty's book and (unlike Crofty) scare the bejesus out of each other with our actual visages? On second thoughts not a good idea.. I have to disappoint you on this. Crofty's avatar is not a photograph of himself. It is instead a scanned and then cropped image from a very obscure old album made by a short-lived skiffle band called the "The Plinky Plonkers". Crofty was a fan of the band and one of only about 75 people to have bought the album. The image he's cropped from the album sleeve cover is of acoustic guitarist Rolf Strummer, sadly long gone and much lamented. Crofty still covers a lot of Rolf's old tunes as he tours the pseudo barns and hotel ballrooms that tend to be the venues these days for low cost wedding receptions. Crofty wouldn't ever be daft enough to put a photograph of himself on a forum like this. Having seen a photograph of the old songsmith on a now defunct website that specialised in one hit wonder "where are they now" musicians, I think he'd be worried about the pre-watershed exposure.
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Post by robbiealive on Aug 22, 2022 16:57:51 GMT
robbiealive I did indeed say that once Javid and Hunt had been eliminated from the Tory leadership race, Sunak was the most plausible candidate left in the field. The others seemed a mixture of oddballs and political ingenues to me. I still remain bemused that the Tory MPs saw fit to divest the contest early on of the only two genuine heavyweights in Javid and Hunt. Plain crackers, but maybe an indication of the nature of the parliamentary Tory Party these days. I posted early on, as did others, on the bizarre decision by Tory MPs to dump those with executive experience in favour of Badenoch, Braverman: Mordaunt nearly came 2nd! But as you say, Tory MPs . . . Wallace's withdrawal was also significant in eliminating someone regarded as fairly experienced and v popular with the membership.
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Post by somerjohn on Aug 22, 2022 16:58:54 GMT
UK Natural Gas futures up by 32% today, to £6.08 per therm.
That compares with £1.07 a year ago. and 9.6p on 29 May 2020.
I don't think people have really taken on board the full, awful magnitude of that change. Nor, I think, are many aware of just how dependent on gas we have been left by Thatcher's "dash for gas".
Having said that, I suspect we will see an equally precipitate fall after the winter, as LNG supplies flood in in response to the price bonanza. Either that, or market forces don't work as advertised.
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Post by hireton on Aug 22, 2022 17:04:29 GMT
My final - I hope - word on the Lib Dems and their policy on the EU. In this interview, Ed Davey evades all questions about the Lib Dem policy of rejoining the Single Market and whether it will be a manifesto commitment: www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0ch7fgzI expect their commitment to rejoining the EU will be the sane as their commitment to federalism.
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Post by hireton on Aug 22, 2022 17:08:20 GMT
Re-LibDem & the EU... Personally, I'd have a hard time voting LibDem and it would take a lot of gritted teeth - even if it meant ousting a tory. For the same ends, I'd vote Green in a heartbeat. It's not that I don't like what they say, quite the opposite on some issues, I simply don't trust them after the 2010 sellout. I'm sure that there are others like me, although, after some stunning wins, patently much less than there once were. For me, it's a moot point as they weigh the Labour vote here so I can vote with my heart without worrying about letting a tory in. More broadly, though, it does seem to me that a fair chunk of the LibDem vote is an anti-tory vote. People know that they are, broadly, pro-EU and certainly the most pro-EU out of the main parties...but, surely the fact that there is a debate on here, amongst people who follow politics more closely than the average joe, about just how pro-EU they are suggests that while the general direction of travel is known, the destination is less so. They are likely to have the anti-tory tactical vote sewn up, but, clearer polic presentation would help getting positive, pro-LibDem votes. To be fair, IMO, Starmer, at least to an extent, has the same problem. "I simply don't trust them after the 2010 sellout" - I find this attitude baffling now. It's been twelve years, and a complete change of personnel. Also if they are likely to be sharing govt again at any point in the future (and I don't think a formal Lab/Lib coalition is likely anyway) they would need to pivot themselves towards Labour policies, not Tory ones which was the trouble last time. The chances of them ever being a formal coalition with the Tories ever in the foreseeable future is pretty close to zero I'd say. If voting for them helps to get rid of a Tory I'll do it in a heartbeat. Voting Green in a general in most constituencies is more or less an abstention. A token. Re "complete change of personnel" the current Lib Dem leader was a member of the Coalition Cabinet and his predecessor was a Minister in the Coalition government.
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Post by alec on Aug 22, 2022 17:23:20 GMT
somerjohn - gas - and coal - aside, I'm starting to think that the economic doom, on inflation at least, is a little overdone. Looking through some random commodity charts, Brent crude is down >20% since the May peak, copper down 25%, steel down 20%, soybean down 15% (but rising again) wheat down around 45%. Of course, some of this is precisely because of gloomy forecasts on inflation making markets think a crash is coming, although this wouldn't affect food markets so much. I just have a (non-expert) feeling that we are overdoing the inflation fear, globally at least, although I think the UK is in a peculiarly vulnerable situation because of the reliance on gas. I think we may see a relatively rapid fall from the inflationary peaks, and my bigger worry is recession, if governments fail to support industry through a short term spike. I get the sense that other governments are seeing this threat too, but in the UK we are stuck in a dream like stasis, where we believe the magical un-targeted tax cut will save everything.
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Post by alec on Aug 22, 2022 17:28:00 GMT
Thought this was quite good -
Of course, the D Tel is desperate to write off the carnage in the NHS as nothing to do with 12 years of under-funding or a relentlessly stupid policy of doing nothing to prevent repeated mass covid infection, so in August it's time to pretend that the problems we are facing are just part of normal winter crises.
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 22, 2022 17:29:41 GMT
Mark I didn't particularly trust the Lib dems after the 2010 election either, but given I was a member of the Labour party at the time and hadn't voted for them it wasn't surprising.
I did however understand the logic of the parliamentary mathematics that faced them, my major fault with them at the time was that they didn't use their influence more effectively.
The fact that I joined the lib dems party after Corbyn was re-elected leader despite the objections of 80%+ of the parliamentary party to him remaining leader and subsequently stood as a candidate locally probably indicates my opinion of where the party now is and where I thought Corbyn was taking Labour.
Personal contact with some senior members of the party haven't disillusioned me.To be honest the Lib dems are by no means a perfect fit Faith and I are at the left fringe social democrat end of the Lib dems . Less flag waving nationalism and a more progressive attitude to at least single market membership and PR would probably bring me back into the fold of Labour.
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 22, 2022 17:32:04 GMT
hireton They didn't have many to choose from did they I voted for Layla Moran first elected in 2017 as it happens. Daisy Cooper is the deputy leader and wasn't an MP until 2019.
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Post by somerjohn on Aug 22, 2022 17:39:45 GMT
Alec: "I just have a (non-expert) feeling that we are overdoing the inflation fear, globally at least, although I think the UK is in a peculiarly vulnerable situation because of the reliance on gas."
I think you're probably right on a global level, because recession is a great killer of inflation. But your second point - the UK's unusually vulnerable position because of gas dependence - is the killer. I think the figures are around 40% for power generation, maybe 80% for domestic heating, and a lot for cooking and energy-intensive industry. That's going to leave us disproportionately exposed to gas-generated inflation - and we already have the highest inflation and lowest growth in G7. I don't see this issue getting the attention it deserves.
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 22, 2022 17:46:24 GMT
Thought this was quite good - Of course, the D Tel is desperate to write off the carnage in the NHS as nothing to do with 12 years of under-funding or a relentlessly stupid policy of doing nothing to prevent repeated mass covid infection, so in August it's time to pretend that the problems we are facing are just part of normal winter crises. It doesn’t appear to be the Telegraph view, that winter pressures have arrived early. Indeed in a leader article today, they seem to rather agree with you, and are worried about what will happen when winter actually comes: “ Not a day passes without another tale of woe involving the NHS, whether it be emergency ambulances failing to turn up on time or people being urged to stay away from A&E. The system is under intolerable pressure and we are not even at the end of August.
What will happen this winter, especially if there is a surge in respiratory diseases like Covid and flu, is the stuff of nightmares for patients, health planners and government ministers. But is anything practical being done to head off this crisis apart from telling people to avoid using the services if possible?” They even suggest spending more money on social care, to take some pressure off the NHS: “ As Esther Rantzen writes in The Telegraph today, more funding needs to be directed towards care – not just for its own sake but to end delayed discharges from hospitals and free up the entire system. The money allocated to the NHS through a National Insurance levy was intended to underpin social care yet is being held back.
If this funding were to be committed for a longer period, social care providers could begin to make longer term investments in staffing and buildings. This needs resolving as a matter of urgency if a winter calamity in the NHS is to be averted.” (Obviousiy, it’s not enough for me: I would personally like to not only see more money go to social care, but to the NHS on top of that…)
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 22, 2022 17:53:52 GMT
robbiealive Thanks for the information on 19th constituency sizes. Both you and pjw1961 clearly know your stuff on this whereas I, self-evidently, don't! Crossbat, you would probably appreciate the genius of Sellar and Yeatman in "1066 and all that" on this subject: "Reform Bill. This Bill had two important clauses which said: (1) that some of the Burrows were rotten and that the people who lived in them should not be allowed either to stand or to have seats; (2) that 'householders, leaseholders and copyholders who had £10 in the towns or freeholders who paid 40s in the country for 10 years or leaseholders (in the country) and copyholders for 21 years in the towns (paying a rent of £50) should in some cases (in the towns) have a vote (for a year) but in others for 41 years (in the country) paying a leasehold or copyhold of £10 should not.' When this unforgettable Law was made known there was great rejoicing and bonfires were lit all over the country."
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 22, 2022 17:57:06 GMT
Nick Timothy writing in the Telegraph:
“With systems built around foreign capital, we have been left at the mercy of an increasingly unstable world”
“Without tens of billions in extra spending, the economic and social scarring left by the energy crunch will last for years.
…
We can argue, with justification, that we should have been better prepared. Successive governments over two decades failed to invest in nuclear power. Gas storage facilities were dismantled. Climate change policies discouraged the exploitation of North Sea oil and gas.
But strong leadership should also recognise that our way of doing things – the British model supported by a political consensus lasting decades – is broken.
…
Despite a rising population and their own climate change warnings, water firms cut infrastructure investment and failed to build even one large new reservoir in 30 years. Twenty per cent of our water supply leaks. Discharges of raw sewage flowing into rivers and seas are up almost 30 per cent on last year. Yet, according to the Government, in one nine-year period the companies made £18.8 billion in profit, thanks in part to complex debt financing. Some 95 per cent went on dividends, not reinvestment.
…
Energy and water are only two fake markets established by government that allow owners, often foreign companies and international investment funds, to print money at the expense of customers. The universities, a cartel that refuses to charge anything less than the statutory maximum fee, regardless of course or institution, are turning British students away in favour of foreigners who pay more. The troubles with the railways – a lack of competition, high fares and unstable franchises – are well-documented.
…
The ideological commitment to “the market” – in a world of state-owned businesses, tariffs and other trade barriers, subsidies, dumping, slave labour and few workers’ rights – trumps all. The result is dependence not only on China for many manufactured goods, but on the likes of France for nuclear expertise and Denmark for wind turbines. Even a request for a £10 million government loan by a surviving British fertiliser plant was rejected because unaffordable gas prices are “an issue for the market to solve”.”
….
…
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2022 17:57:11 GMT
crossbat11 “ I have to disappoint you on this. Crofty's avatar is not a photograph of himself. It is instead a scanned and then cropped image from a very obscure old album made by a short-lived skiffle band called the "The Plinky Plonkers". Crofty was a fan of the band and one of only about 75 people to have bought the album.” Since you know the history Batty, you might actually be interested in a spare copy of my tribute cassette “Crofty does Plinky Plonky”. I’ve still got a few hundred of the buggers as I had anticipated a higher sales volume. Well - just anticipated a sale I suppose. Anyway, pm me for a very fair price - they’re all signed.
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 22, 2022 18:17:44 GMT
“On the basis of existing trends, the Czech and Polish economies will catch up with ours within 12 to 15 years. Our infrastructure is rotting, our economy stagnating and, with the NHS in crisis and the police unwilling to police, our state services are hollowing out. This is not the result of Brexit or austerity, nor the mistakes of an individual politician or two. This is the culmination of the failure of a political consensus that prized wafer-thin efficiency over solid resilience, market ideology over state capacity, financial services over a balanced economy, imported goods over domestic production, foreign ownership over strategic capabilities, and globalisation over the national interest.
The financial crash, pandemic and energy crunch exposed our weaknesses, but the crises will keep coming. Geopolitical reality will keep testing us, and our social and economic weaknesses will mean we will keep falling short.”
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,190
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 22, 2022 18:41:02 GMT
As the penchant for adding black and white photos as avatars seems to be catching on, and feeling the need to be part of a crowd I changed mine. Me too
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