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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2022 13:08:04 GMT
"Lets keep it simple then...... 'Unionist' and 'Nationalist'."
OK. "Unionists" are those who wish their polity to be a member state of the European Union. "Nationalists" are those who wish their polity to exist outwith that Union.
"You can put your slant as to this and that about attitudes in England and (Wales)."
Since pjw1961 's comment was that "terminology is used "to wind up their English supporters", I restricted my response to that. To see yourself, or your group, as being so important, that everyone else is focussed on you, is a classic form of the "hypervigilant" subtype of narcissistic personality disorder - though I had hoped that a gentler reference would be adequate. It is, of course, not unique to England that some people demonstrate that characteristic to some degree or other. Such people, who often display a contradictory set of attitudes incorporating arrogance and victimhood, are to be found everywhere. I observed it as being regrettably common in Scotland in the 3rd quarter of the 20th century.
"For me the self centredness comes from Scottish Nationalists who see themselves as having an escape route from a failing union and who seem to relish every opportunity to tell us that."
Since the whole point of the constitutional debate in Scotland is to advocate what people think is best for Scotland, of course it is self (or at least polity) centred. Research has shown that the number of people who think Scotland should be in no political union at all is very small, and the prospect of being in both the UK and European Unions for the foreseeable future is vanishingly small, the key question is which of the two available Unions is best for Scotland to be in. Those in other polities will have to make their own choices.
However, I am glad to see you confirming that the UK Union is failing - "a sinking ship" - so we should all consider the best options to replace it.
"It's as if we are all on a sinking ship but some of us have access to a lifeboat. Imagine being in the group that don't have access to the lifeboat!"
Perhaps not the best analogy. The officers commanding the tramp steamer "UK" ensured that there were no lifeboats. Those with a bit of gumption are building a raft, while others just sit around moaning about those selfish buggers who don't choose to drown with the rest of us.
"Many people in England and Wales have very similar views and attitudes to people in Scotland"
True - but a non-sequitur. Just as many in Ireland, IoM and the Channel Islands (not to mention in other states around the world) have the same. Sharing such attitudes does not entail being in a political union.
"There is more that unifies us than divides us in relation to culture, language, foreign affairs, defence etc. The areas that are different can be managed by devolution and both Labour and LibDems have an honourable history in devolving power."
Since foreign affairs and defence are matters reserved to Westminster, it should be obvious that they cannot be managed by devolution. Hireton has already dealt with your other points. No don't agree with this characterisation. It's dismissive of devolution and is just reframing a wider debate into areas you wish to restrict it to. As to your comments about 'a classic form of the "hypervigilant" subtype of narcissistic personality disorder' and 'arrogance and victimhood'... I would usually characterise that as your usual over the top 'flannel' directed towards people who disagree with you. It's also quite distasteful to use mental health pathology in such a casual way. I imagine most readers of that bizarre, pseudo-medical abuse would totally agree with you moby. It’s actually embarrassing to read. Paul
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
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A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 19, 2022 13:13:12 GMT
c-a-r-f-r-e-w For those of us not focussed exclusively on covid the implications of lockdown and the cancellation of preventative health care were obvious. Sadly but not unexpectedly they prove to be becoming apparent. I find myself worrying about it all really Steve. I worry about the less obvious impacts of Covid, even when mild, and still wear a mask when out. But I also worried about the impacts of lockdown etc., and changed my diet, did more exercise etc.
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Post by ladyvalerie on Aug 19, 2022 13:32:46 GMT
The yellow blobs signify a reaction to the quoted post. What exactly I cannot fathom. Could you explain? In a moment of befuddlement more-&-more common in one's senior years, I thought the italicised phrase in the post was a self-description. I soon realised it was yet another example of the poster describing people or posters who don't agree with him as suffering from one form of mental pathology or another. Curiously, when a much milder accusation of that character was (inappropriately) levelled against him by by one of our very long-standing women posters, he reacted with a venom & unpleasantness quite disproportionate to the modest offence he had experienced. I would say, "one has to laugh", but that I would probably find myself labelled as hysterical, suffering from an uncontrolled emotional outburst or some other mental disorder. The later it gets, the more abusive the posts, as he gets more “tired and emotional “.. Best ignored.
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 19, 2022 13:35:09 GMT
oldnat The Tories came ahead of the SNP in Scotland second to Labour in 1987 the SNP came last. So not quite half a century is it?
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Post by alec on Aug 19, 2022 13:55:42 GMT
c-a-r-f-r-e-w - "There is perhaps quite a bit of circumstantial evidence to suggest lockdown effects ought to be taken seriously." And like I keep saying, I agree with this - lockdowns are damaging. Not quite sure why you keep posting such statements, when I continually agree with them.
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
Member
A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,185
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 19, 2022 14:18:12 GMT
c-a-r-f-r-e-w - "There is perhaps quite a bit of circumstantial evidence to suggest lockdown effects ought to be taken seriously." And like I keep saying, I agree with this - lockdowns are damaging. Not quite sure why you keep posting such statements, when I continually agree with them. well it might have something to do with how your initial response didn’t take potential lockdown effects into account, then you cited the Twitter post that also ignored things like impact of being sedentary, alcohol etc., you complained there was no evidence of the possibility lockdown might weaken someone before Covid made things worse etc.
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Post by alec on Aug 19, 2022 14:23:32 GMT
Get the feeling that, having bumped up against a good team, the Stokes bounce is over.
England were very lucky to win their last set of tests, and thrash cricket is eventually going to come unstuck. Like any game, cricket needs a situational awareness and an adaptability to circumstance. Going out and smashing everything can be entertaining, but it isn't great cricket.
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Post by alec on Aug 19, 2022 14:24:54 GMT
c-a-r-f-r-e-w - "you complained there was no evidence of the possibility lockdown might weaken someone before Covid made things worse etc." No - I criticised an evidence free assertion. That's very different. You should know that.
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c-a-r-f-r-e-w
Member
A step on the way toward the demise of the liberal elite? Or just a blip…
Posts: 6,185
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Post by c-a-r-f-r-e-w on Aug 19, 2022 14:27:59 GMT
c-a-r-f-r-e-w - "you complained there was no evidence of the possibility lockdown might weaken someone before Covid made things worse etc." No - I criticised an evidence free assertion. That's very different. You should know that. As I pointed out, it wasn’t necessarily evidence-free, it’s just that it might be circumstantial and not conclusive. But any road, I think you might have a point about the cricket, though there’s a fear we might be even worse if we don’t have a thrash…
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Post by alec on Aug 19, 2022 14:34:54 GMT
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 19, 2022 14:40:49 GMT
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Post by leftieliberal on Aug 19, 2022 15:34:07 GMT
Get the feeling that, having bumped up against a good team, the Stokes bounce is over. England were very lucky to win their last set of tests, and thrash cricket is eventually going to come unstuck. Like any game, cricket needs a situational awareness and an adaptability to circumstance. Going out and smashing everything can be entertaining, but it isn't great cricket. I don't agree that England were lucky to win their tests against NZ and India. There were some outstanding individual performances and their opponents lost their focus. This Test was half lost when Stokes lost the toss and England were put in on a wicket that really favoured the bowlers. This time it was England's bowlers who lost their focus and bowled too many bad balls. When you get a team 6 down for 210, allowing them to reach 326 was appalling. We went from 141-6 just before Broad was out to 149 all out in the second innings.
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 19, 2022 16:12:15 GMT
alec/leftieliberal
I couldn't understand the way Broad batted, especially since it appeared to be condoned and applauded by Stokes who was batting with him. Broad does have problems with short pitched fast bowling, but can bat and considering he had a recognised batsman at the other end, he should have defended when on strike and, whenever he could, let Stokes face the bulk of the bowling.
It was a long shot but our only possible way of setting South Africa any sort of target. His ridiculous frenetic 34 was of no consequence at all. A 15 not out with Stokes getting 70 or 80 was what he should have aimed at.
As it was he played a joke innings, that bizarrely seemed to amuse both him and Stokes. In effect he gave the game away without any resistance or defiance. Bravado rather than real courage
If this was another aspect of Bazball, then it was a very unwelcome one. It was semi-farcical and embarrassing cricket.
That said, this is a fine South African pace quartet that looks far too good for England's brittle top order.
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Post by mandolinist on Aug 19, 2022 16:26:16 GMT
alec/leftieliberal I couldn't understand the way Broad batted, especially since it appeared to be condoned and applauded by Stokes who was batting with him. Broad does have problems with short pitched fast bowling, but can bat and considering he had a recognised batsman at the other end, he should have defended when on strike and, whenever he could, let Stokes face the bulk of the bowling. It was a long shot but our only possible way of setting South Africa any sort of target. His ridiculous frenetic 34 was of no consequence at all. A 15 not out with Stokes getting 70 or 80 was what he should have aimed at. As it was he played a joke innings, that bizarrely seemed to amuse both him and Stokes. In effect he gave the game away without any resistance or defiance. Bravado rather than real courage If this was another aspect of Bazball, then it was a very unwelcome one. It was semi-farcical and embarrassing cricket. That said, this is a fine South African pace quartet that looks far too good for England's brittle top order. So glad I took the opportunity to duck out of the cricket for a trip to the Kennet and Avon Canal at Dundas Aqueduct. Although, I overheard a very well dressed and spoken woman telling a young man that,
"You are lucky not to have come across socialism" said with some considerable venom, "it is the first step towards totalitarianism". My other half had to remind me that random strangers do not want to hear my lectures on the nature of the Conservative Party.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2022 16:35:50 GMT
alec/leftieliberal I couldn't understand the way Broad batted, especially since it appeared to be condoned and applauded by Stokes who was batting with him. Broad does have problems with short pitched fast bowling, but can bat and considering he had a recognised batsman at the other end, he should have defended when on strike and, whenever he could, let Stokes face the bulk of the bowling. It was a long shot but our only possible way of setting South Africa any sort of target. His ridiculous frenetic 34 was of no consequence at all. A 15 not out with Stokes getting 70 or 80 was what he should have aimed at. As it was he played a joke innings, that bizarrely seemed to amuse both him and Stokes. In effect he gave the game away without any resistance or defiance. Bravado rather than real courage If this was another aspect of Bazball, then it was a very unwelcome one. It was semi-farcical and embarrassing cricket. That said, this is a fine South African pace quartet that looks far too good for England's brittle top order. They need you out there - you’re not called Batty for nothing surely? Hop to it mate and get on the phone to them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2022 16:36:47 GMT
alec/leftieliberal I couldn't understand the way Broad batted, especially since it appeared to be condoned and applauded by Stokes who was batting with him. Broad does have problems with short pitched fast bowling, but can bat and considering he had a recognised batsman at the other end, he should have defended when on strike and, whenever he could, let Stokes face the bulk of the bowling. It was a long shot but our only possible way of setting South Africa any sort of target. His ridiculous frenetic 34 was of no consequence at all. A 15 not out with Stokes getting 70 or 80 was what he should have aimed at. As it was he played a joke innings, that bizarrely seemed to amuse both him and Stokes. In effect he gave the game away without any resistance or defiance. Bravado rather than real courage If this was another aspect of Bazball, then it was a very unwelcome one. It was semi-farcical and embarrassing cricket. That said, this is a fine South African pace quartet that looks far too good for England's brittle top order. So glad I took the opportunity to duck out of the cricket for a trip to the Kennet and Avon Canal at Dundas Aqueduct. Although, I overheard a very well dressed and spoken woman telling a young man that,
"You are lucky not to have come across socialism" said with some considerable venom, "it is the first step towards totalitarianism". My other half had to remind me that random strangers do not want to hear my lectures on the nature of the Conservative Party.
A quiet beating would surely have been appropriate?
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 19, 2022 17:11:21 GMT
@crofty I've offered my services to the England cricket selectors but the recent change in the laws that no longer allow a hobbled batsman to have a runner may count against me! mandolinistNever let politics intrude on to the towpath is my advice. Why spoil a day on the canals with all that nonsense??
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 19, 2022 17:19:36 GMT
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Post by alec on Aug 19, 2022 17:20:08 GMT
I think what is fascinating is that when we see the political bandwidth given to household energy costs this winter, there seems almost no corresponding attention given to businesses. This story paints a picture of an economy increasingly just shutting down - www.theguardian.com/money/2022/aug/19/uk-small-businesses-forced-to-close-by-soaring-energy-billsBBC Radio PM had an interview earlier in the week with a seafood retailer who has been in the market for 40 years, running 11 warehousing and shipping hubs in the UK employing 1000 staff. Last week they took the decision to shut down and move their operations to the Netherlands. On Friday, they issued all staff with redundancies, but hope to take 40 key staff over with them. So over 900 jobs lost permanently to the UK economy. He cited Brexit costs, which landed them with a £6m bill. They could have coped with that, making a loss for a couple of years, and they were prepared to absorb a 30% rise in energy costs, but with energy costs now up 260% they decided it wasn't worth the candle. In the Netherlands, the government has moved to cap energy costs at a modest 15% (I recall), so the Netherlands will now win 900 British jobs. While Brexit costs are an entirely self inflicted own goal, the other inflationary pressures are generally appearing everywhere. What seems to mark out the UK is the complete failure in government to firstly grasp the scale of this, and secondly their abject failure in offering any amelioration. A trip down Whitehall must seem like walking through the decks of the Marie Celeste, such is the still, dead silence of ministers.
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 19, 2022 17:22:10 GMT
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steve
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Post by steve on Aug 19, 2022 17:23:00 GMT
alec It's worth saying twice.
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Post by crossbat11 on Aug 19, 2022 17:46:36 GMT
alec
Not sure that it's total silence in Whitehall. Schappsy, as we affectionately call him, is on the airwaves regularly. His latest utterance threatens to impose the latest offer from the rail companies on to the rail unions without any further negotiations. This comes after talk about making strikes on the railways illegal. He's also talked about shipping in agency employees as a way of breaking the strike.
Schappsy is on fire.
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Post by graham on Aug 19, 2022 18:34:48 GMT
alec Not sure that it's total silence in Whitehall. Schappsy, as we affectionately call him, is on the airwaves regularly. His latest utterance threatens to impose the latest offer from the rail companies on to the rail unions without any further negotiations. This comes after talk about making strikes on the railways illegal. He's also talked about shipping in agency employees as a way of breaking the strike. Schappsy is on fire. Imposing an offer does not stop further strikes though. Labour needs to attack the increasingly Fascist tinge to some of the Tory rhetoric by inviting both contenders to reveal when they became admirers of Mussolini - Franco- Salazaar - and the Greek colonels. Saying nothing is not good enough - this needs to be opposed with the same firm determination we saw against Mosley both before and after World War2 in his various guises.
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Post by mandolinist on Aug 19, 2022 18:43:46 GMT
I think I agree with you, but, I hope it is joined up enough so that people don't lose their Universal Credit entitlement and with it free prescriptions, dental care and glasses etc, as well as Council Tax rebates, rent allowances and the extra help which has just been announced with heating bills. £1 over the Universal Credit cut off could come at enormous cost.
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oldnat
Member
Extremist - Undermining the UK state and its institutions
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Post by oldnat on Aug 19, 2022 19:00:52 GMT
oldnat The Tories came ahead of the SNP in Scotland second to Labour in 1987 the SNP came last. So not quite half a century is it? Fair point. Indeed Alba is viewed less favourably than the Tories at the moment, and the Liberals/LD (even as the Alliance) never got as many votes in a GE than the Tories. However, the "Meh" response isn't measured in elections. Polls in the past have indicated that more folk dislike SCon than any other party but, you are right, I don't have the data to support my assertion.
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 19, 2022 19:06:44 GMT
The yellow blobs signify a reaction to the quoted post. What exactly I cannot fathom. Could you explain? In a moment of befuddlement more-&-more common in one's senior years, I thought the italicised phrase in the post was a self-description. I soon realised it was yet another example of the poster describing people or posters who don't agree with him as suffering from one form of mental pathology or another. Curiously, when a much milder accusation of that character was (inappropriately) levelled against him by by one of our very long-standing women posters, he reacted with a venom & unpleasantness quite disproportionate to the modest offence he had experienced. I would say, "one has to laugh", but that I would probably find myself labelled as hysterical, suffering from an uncontrolled emotional outburst or some other mental disorder. You did fathom robbie - correctly. Trying to suggest other posters are suffering from mental disorders of one sort or another is not something I would think wise, but since someone had chosen to post that about moby I was amused by said poster's lack of self-awareness. A mixture of arrogance and victimhood indeed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2022 19:13:09 GMT
A mixture of arrogance and victimhood indeed. The definition of a nationalist of any kind.
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Post by RAF on Aug 19, 2022 19:39:22 GMT
alec Not sure that it's total silence in Whitehall. Schappsy, as we affectionately call him, is on the airwaves regularly. His latest utterance threatens to impose the latest offer from the rail companies on to the rail unions without any further negotiations. This comes after talk about making strikes on the railways illegal. He's also talked about shipping in agency employees as a way of breaking the strike. Schappsy is on fire. Imposing an offer does not stop further strikes though. Labour needs to attack the increasingly Fascist tinge to some of the Tory rhetoric by inviting both contenders to reveal when they became admirers of Mussolini - Franco- Salazaar - and the Greek colonels. Saying nothing is not good enough - this needs to be opposed with the same firm determination we saw against Mosley both before and after World War2 in his various guises. After a slow start, we may be seeing the emergence of Labour throwing off the shackles of triangulation and starting to challenge the government head on: Energy policy and today a move on the Minimum Wage/Living Wage. It's only a matter of time before Labour's momentum takes them onto challenging the philosophy behind current Tory policy. Senior Labour figures in the country such as Andy Burnham are already doing this forcefully and it's clearly striking a chord with the public.
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Post by hireton on Aug 19, 2022 20:16:03 GMT
YouGov with a 15 point Labour lead:
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pjw1961
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Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
Posts: 8,397
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Post by pjw1961 on Aug 19, 2022 20:27:09 GMT
That YouGov is going to have a few Tory MPs flapping.
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